Help for the nub?

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    Cool Help for the nub?


    Good Evening ladies and gents,

    So long story short, due to the outstanding recreational faculties at USF, I'm going for a staggering 50 pounds of growth over the next two years. I'll be starting at 5 ft 11 @ 135 lbs. About two years ago, I was around 200 pounds, but got an autoimmune disease that took off about 65 pounds in 2 months. I've optimized my health through supplementation and correct diet, so that's behind me now. My college major has me take many courses pertaining to nutrition and the human body in general. Any tips or critiques would be greatly appreciated.

    Target calories daily: 3000 to begin, increase as needed with growth, no difference between on and off days

    Breakfast: Insulin spiking high GI carbs (20-30 g), low GI carbs (20 g), protein (30-40 g), fat differs
    1-2 hours before workout: Low GI carbs (20-40), protein (30-40)
    30 minutes before workout: High GI carbs (20-40)
    Immediately after workout: Insulin spiking High GI carbs (.8 per kg), protein (.4 per kg)
    1-2 hours after workout: Low GI carbs (20-40), protein (30-50)
    Mid meal: Low GI carbs (20-40), protein (30-40), fat differs
    Dinner: Low GI carbs (20-40), protein (30-40), fat differs

    Upon waking: High potency natural multivitamin/mineral, 1000mg EFA, B vitamin, B-6 100mg, 1000mg Vit C, Astaxanthin, 500mg Niacinamide, 250mg Grapefruit Seed Extract (attempting to inhibit enzyme CYP3A4, I loves me some EC stack, cycle it often enough as a pre-workout supplement that there are no negative consequences to hunger).

    Every 4 hours: 500mg Vit C, 1000mg EFA
    Total Vit C daily: 3500mg (Cortisol Blocking)
    Total EFA: 3000 off days, 4000mg on. (Awesome for everything!?)

    Exercise cycles 6 days: Chest/Tricep Day, Back/Bicep Day, Off Day, Leg Day, Shoulder/Abs Day, Off Day
    Planks every other day because I love my planks. They work D:

    Planning on introducing protein cycling to me regimen. 6-8 weeks 1 gram per pound of protein, 4 weeks decreasing protein by half each week until around 35 grams per day, 6-8 weeks 1 gram per pound.... etc. If you'd like to know why I'm doing this, that question has already been asked and answered a little further down the page.

    So... If you took the time to read all that, you're alright in my book. Steer me in the right direction if you can!
    Last edited by CptKeithUSF; 09-02-2012 at 07:50 PM. Reason: Forgot to mention protein cycling

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    Whatever works for you, but meal timing and the compostition of said meals is largely irrelevant, especially if your just following a bodybuilding or strength training type of programme. Recent studies show that as long as total macronutrient goals are met, then performance and recovery will not be hindered. In saying that though, if you train long duratons with aerobic training or multiple times per day, then meal timing can be useful to restore glycogen stores.

    Also, why do you stagger the intake of vitamin C? Having it all in one go is just as beneficial. Trying to stop cortisol production during exercise is pointless because, if you could, then how would your body break down energy substrates for fuel? Catabolism needs to occur in order for energy substartes to be broken down. What you don't want is excess cortisol in the system between exercise sessions, not during them.
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    Thanks for the macronutrient advice Jiigzz. I eat in intervals like that because my hunger is usually voracious and insatiable, so I enjoy eating multiple times a day.

    With regards to my staggering of vitamin C, an abundant amount of sources cite that the half-life associated with oral vitamin C lies somewhere around a half an hour. If I'm not mistaken, substances usually require around 5.5 half-lives to be completely eliminated from the body; that would suggest that in just under 3 hours, most if not all of the plasma borne concentration of vitamin C would be destroyed by the body. Therefore, I'm not sure that a large dose in the morning would suffice to keep plasma concentrations up as effectively as integrally spaced dosages. Vitamin C is also purported to cause gastrointestinal symptomology when larger doses are taken as well, an effect that I thankfully haven't and probably won't encounter utilizing spaced dosing.

    Also, I'm not attempting to stop cortisol production during exercise, I simply take a larger dose 30 minutes to an hour after an intense session with fish oils, protein, and carbohydrates. I stated that I took vitamin C in dosages of 500mg every four hours, sorry if that was confusing.

    Additionally, I have a chronic autoimmune disease. The supplementation of vitamin C in the dosage that I've been using over the past few months has all but completely eliminated autoimmune inflammatory flares and attacks, though the combination of omega-3s could certainly account and contribute to that. When you state that having it all in one go is just as beneficial, can you cite a particular instance in which that was the outcome? I'd like to give that document a look if you wouldn't mind finding the source.

    Come on pros, I want to get HUGE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptKeithUSF View Post
    Thanks for the macronutrient advice Jiigzz. I eat in intervals like that because my hunger is usually voracious and insatiable, so I enjoy eating multiple times a day.

    With regards to my staggering of vitamin C, an abundant amount of sources cite that the half-life associated with oral vitamin C lies somewhere around a half an hour. If I'm not mistaken, substances usually require around 5.5 half-lives to be completely eliminated from the body; that would suggest that in just under 3 hours, most if not all of the plasma borne concentration of vitamin C would be destroyed by the body. Therefore, I'm not sure that a large dose in the morning would suffice to keep plasma concentrations up as effectively as integrally spaced dosages. Vitamin C is also purported to cause gastrointestinal symptomology when larger doses are taken as well, an effect that I thankfully haven't and probably won't encounter utilizing spaced dosing.

    Also, I'm not attempting to stop cortisol production during exercise, I simply take a larger dose 30 minutes to an hour after an intense session with fish oils, protein, and carbohydrates. I stated that I took vitamin C in dosages of 500mg every four hours, sorry if that was confusing.

    Additionally, I have a chronic autoimmune disease. The supplementation of vitamin C in the dosage that I've been using over the past few months has all but completely eliminated autoimmune inflammatory flares and attacks, though the combination of omega-3s could certainly account and contribute to that. When you state that having it all in one go is just as beneficial, can you cite a particular instance in which that was the outcome? I'd like to give that document a look if you wouldn't mind finding the source.

    Come on pros, I want to get HUGE.
    Thats what I get posting so late. Nevermind. Your vitamin C intake is right on point; and trying to take 3.5g of it in one sitting would be hard.

    Why protein cycle? Just curious
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    Why go down to 35g protein doing cycling? I do not see a point in this. Vary macro levels can be beneficial but if your eating over 3000 cals a day with only 35 from protein that's a hell of a lot of carbs and fat. Unless I interpreted what you meant wrong
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Thats what I get posting so late. Nevermind. Your vitamin C intake is right on point; and trying to take 3.5g of it in one sitting would be hard.

    Why protein cycle? Just curious
    Don't worry about it man, we could all use more sleep. I'll answer your question with an excellent article I came across while researching the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch5 View Post
    Why go down to 35g protein doing cycling? I do not see a point in this. Vary macro levels can be beneficial but if your eating over 3000 cals a day with only 35 from protein that's a hell of a lot of carbs and fat. Unless I interpreted what you meant wrong
    Feel free to look up the article that this information comes from, as it contains all the sources for its info.

    To begin with, some negative correlations associated with constant high intake of protein.

    "There are several toxic metabolites of protein that damage multiple organ systems. This includes damage and functional compromise of the central nervous system (brain), circulatory system, as well as renal functions. The most important and well-understood toxins are ammonia, homocysteine, and uric acid. Ammonia is a product, formed in large quantities, during amino acid deamination (the process, which modifies aminos to become substrates for carb and fat synthesis) and is very, very toxic, especially to the brain. Ammonia is the reason people with liver failure get encephalopathic (brain damaged) and is an etiologic factor in their deaths.

    Normally, the liver converts ammonia to urea but this conversion subjects the liver to a great deal of stress under many circumstances and can cause liver hypertrophy. The liver may also commonly be subclinically overwhelmed such that there are no overt symptoms of encephalopathy, just slow brain damage, but we bodybuilders are supposed to be dumb anyway, right? Yeah, maybe in more ways than one. Needless to say there are many, many more sequelae of ammonia but you get the idea.

    Another toxic metabolite of protein is homocysteine. This metabolite is a free radical of sorts and is notorious for scarring blood vessels and thus predisposing us all to atherosclerotic plaque formation. Just think, we all thought it was only the fat and cholesterol responsible for our early heart attacks and strokes!

    Although there are many other protein-derived toxins, the last one I'll discuss is uric acid. This chemical is the culprit in gout (you know, the "swollen, red big toe" disease). Anyway, uric acid can also get deposited in the kidneys as crystals, which cause poor function, damage, and occasionally, in those predisposed, kidney stones. We won't even begin to discuss the link between excessive protein and cancer because it would take up too much space.."

    Now, something interesting for you to think about.

    "You see, most of us take in so much protein that our bodies have gone into a constant state of panic! I just illustrated how physiologically stressful a huge protein load can be. The body has had to up-regulate every protein destroying and detoxifying enzyme it can synthesize to keep from getting poisoned, literally. In the face of a chronically high protein load, the body also becomes entirely too efficient at disposing of and shunting protein as waste rather than utilizing it for anabolism.

    One of the shunting pathways of protein just happens to be muscle synthesis but overloading your system with protein has to be one of the most archaic and unintelligent ways to achieve growth ever used. The key to intelligent protein use is forcing the body to become efficient at protein storage (muscle is the prime storage depot) rather than protein shunting and disposal (muscle is a secondary shunting destination). This is easily done with a little manipulation

    Natural and assisted (a euphemism for "juiced to the hilt") bodybuilders will benefit immensely from cycling protein because of all the physiologic adaptations that can be achieved by "tricking" the body in the manner I am about to outline. Protein cycling, by my definition, is the use of periods of low protein intake to cause the body to become extraordinarily efficient at storage, as well as tricking it to become very sensitive to protein's anabolic effects. If the body is chronically overloaded with protein it begins down-regulating protein storage enzymes secondary to anticipating excess protein. The body also initiates other adaptive changes including decreased absorption and increased excretion of protein (definitely counterproductive).

    The body can be fooled into thinking that it is becoming protein deficient during periods of low protein consumption even in the face of normal caloric intake. Of course, when this idea is taken to an extreme it results in a condition of malnutrition called KWASHIORKOR.

    You're probably thinking that none of this sounds too great so far. Well, here's one major benefit that will get your attention. During these periods of decreased protein consumption the body's growth hormone production can increase to TEN TIMES THE NORMAL LEVEL! That's not a misprint. Ten times the normal level of GH! Do I have your attention yet? This level remains elevated for greater than a month after the readdition of protein to the diet. In some cases GH can remain at levels 100% above normal levels twenty-five days after increasing protein consumption.

    This is only one beneficial physiologic adaptation. There are other adaptations that occur during protein restriction that result in explosive growth during the high protein phase of protein cycling. One such adaptation to the low protein phase is decreased production of protein degrading enzymes and gluconeogenic enzymes. This decrease in enzyme production occurs along with an increase in protein storing enzymes.

    Think about this concept for a second. You can create an environment in which there is increased circulating GH, decreased protein degrading enzyme production, decreased enzymes for protein conversion to energy, and a huge increase in protein storage enzymes (where muscle is the prime storage depot). Are your eyes getting wide yet? Well, there's even more but it requires a little more explanation...

    Gaining muscle through massive consumption of protein is a "live by the sword, die by the sword" kind of concept. Let me explain. The body, in an attempt to dispose of excess protein, will shift metabolic gears, so to speak, and preferentially use protein via gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis for energy. This may sound tolerable (even though we just discussed the associated toxicity) but what happens if, God forbid, you miss a meal or two? Guess what?all those enzymes sitting around chewing up all that excess protein for energy are still there, turned on full blast, using muscle for fuel at nearly the same rate that you were consuming your protein. Your gains will soon disappear via the adage "easy come, easy go."

    Most of us have experienced this, especially when dieting (Hey, didn't I just see some lights come on?) but couldn't figure out what happened. Protein cycling eliminates that trap completely! What happens is that cycling protein minimizes the mechanisms for protein degradation during the low protein phase such that by the time the body begins to gear them back up again during the high protein phase (4-6 weeks later), you'll have already made enormous gains.

    Then, you can start dropping your protein again, thus avoiding the cascade of catabolism FOREVER. You see, the reason I'm able to say "forever" is that each time you complete a cycle of protein manipulation you create a new "MUSCLE SETPOINT," so to speak, and become immune to the catabolic sequelae of a diet chronically high in protein.

    Other benefits of protein cycling include more efficient function of the liver and kidneys and a decrease in organ size. We all know that a smaller liver is great, especially to those of us with protruding guts secondary to liver hypertrophy. A diet with excessive protein is one of the major culprits in hepatic hypertrophy (along with exogenous GH and oral anabolic agents, etc.). The biggest benefit is the continual and exceptional gains that can be achieved while using a lot less protein (and spending a lot less money, too). Let's recap the benefits of cycling protein:

    • HUGE increases in natural GH production? up to ten times normal
    • Extraordinary decreases in protein degradation
    • Exceptional reductions in protein waste and use for energy
    • Massive increases in protein storage as muscle
    • Improved liver function probably translating into increased IGF-1 elaboration and GH sensitivity
    • Decreased liver size (with decreased gut protrusion likely)
    • A new "MUSCLE SETPOINT" more resistant to catabolism
    • Perpetual growth without plateaus


    How to take advantage of a program such as this...

    "First, protein is gradually decreased by 50% each week. As the protein is decreased, the calories are replaced by carbohydrate, but not completely. Only one half to two-thirds of the protein calories should be replaced (metabolically, protein and carbohydrate do not provide the same amount of energy, and this concept could take an entire article so just trust me on this point).

    The protein should be decreased each week until protein intake is only 40 grams per day (even though I suspect 20 grams per day may cause a more beneficial metabolic compensation). Keep the 40-gram/day protein intake for one month. During the low protein period of the cycle, increasing repetitions can cause an increase in glycogen storage enzymes in muscle. This increase in repetitions (50% more than usual) is not necessary, but why waste the opportunity to teach the muscles to overfill?

    Hey, don't be afraid of losing muscle and wimp out...many of our current ideas about building muscle are stupid and based on the ideas of peons and pencil necks. For instance, I have discovered, in the literature and through self-experimentation, that muscle can be built during complete starvation...but that's another topic for another day. Anyway, after 4 weeks of 20-40 gm of protein per day it will be time to shock the body into growth explosion! Protein should suddenly be increased to 1 gram per pound body weight divided into four to six meals daily. See? Nothing too radical or complex there, either.

    Continue the high protein phase for four to eight weeks, depending on when you begin to plateau (usually around week 8). Do not increase protein to overcome your plateau phase, it defeats the purpose of changing your metabolism. Cycle your protein down again and start over. The difference this time will be that you will continue to gain...trust me. I promise you eternal gains with less physiologic damage and more cash in the pocket...think about it, no one has anything to gain in any way with this program but you! Let's recap:

    • Decrease protein by 50% per week until a goal of 20-40 gm of protein per day is reached.
    • Replace only 1/2 to 2/3 protein calories with carb calories unless weight loss is noted.
    • Remain at 20-40 gm or protein per day for four weeks.
    • Increase protein to one gram per pound body weight per day immediately after four weeks of low protein intake.
    • Continue this for four to eight weeks and then start over.


    Essential Advice to follow if you decide to utilize this program

    1) Consume your protein immediately after training to minimize muscle loss during the low protein phase.

    2) Increase carbs during low protein phase if weight loss is noted to persist for more than four days.

    3) AVOID YOHIMBINE LIKE THE PLAGUE!? IT'S A POTENT INHIBITOR OF GH SECRETION.

    4) Skip the vitamin B supplements during the low protein phase. Many B vitamins increase protein use for fuel which could crush you during this phase.

    5) DON'T PANIC IF YOU SMOOTH OUT A LITTLE during the low protein phase. The edema resolves after two weeks or so.



    While taking classes pertaining to human anatomy and cellular metabolism, I was introduced to this idea by a professor. After doing supplemental research, I discovered that there are guides on how to do this properly. The article I've provided is written by an excellent endocrinologist who happens to be a bodybuilder as well. I'm actually excited to see the results of this program, as I'm starting from scratch. I can imagine that the gains will be quite impressive, and I'll be sure to keep individuals posted on how it goes in my case.
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    Well let us know how it goes, I'm very skeptical but if you prove me wrong props to you. I agree high protein is harder on the liver, but going that low I just can't wrap my head around. High fat values will stress the heart. I could see cyclin from .5 to 1.5 lbs per pound of protein but if I ate 30g protein in a day I would die lol
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    Hmmm, I actually don't agree with the article. Fact is the body needs protein, at a minimum of .8g per kg/BW for a normal sedentary individual. Proteins are essential in not only building and repairing muscle tissue, but also for hormone transport throughout the body system.

    It just seems like the author has gone through a huge amount of effort for nothing and imo is just scare mongering. It has long been argued that excess fat intake is bad, excess carb intake is bad, now excess protein is bad? Where there is one article for something, there is also one against it.

    I would never dip below 1.6-1.8g/kgBW.

    Towards the end of the article it says to avoid B vitamins as they increase protein use for fuel. Never avoid vitamin intake. Whether A,B, C ,D ,E etc etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Hmmm, I actually don't agree with the article. Fact is the body needs protein, at a minimum of .8g per kg/BW for a normal sedentary individual. Proteins are essential in not only building and repairing muscle tissue, but also for hormone transport throughout the body system.

    It just seems like the author has gone through a huge amount of effort for nothing and imo is just scare mongering. It has long been argued that excess fat intake is bad, excess carb intake is bad, now excess protein is bad? Where there is one article for something, there is also one against it.

    I would never dip below 1.6-1.8g/kgBW.

    Towards the end of the article it says to avoid B vitamins as they increase protein use for fuel. Never avoid vitamin intake. Whether A,B, C ,D ,E etc etc.
    Jiigzz, he didn't suggest that you eliminate b vitamins in their entirety, he simply suggested that you AVOID ADDING SUPPLEMENTAL (B complex, etc.) b vitamins into your diet. My supplemental intake will not change except for the additional b vitamins, such as niacinamide, b-6, and the b complex. My multivitamin provides 100 percent of all vitamins necessary for the body.

    Additionally, utilizing your calculator of minimum protein, I land at 49 grams daily. I was aiming for 35, which isn't necessarily that far off. However, I do understand what you're getting at, and will probably consume 40 instead of 35 grams daily, as 40 was the upper limit for the specific program anyway. This is only 9 grams deficient of that figure, yet 15 grams larger than my daily minimum (see below).

    Furthermore, I can provide literature from the American Journal of Nutrition pertaining to the minimum requirements of protein per kg of body weight. For an individual of my weight, the minimum requirement that takes into account basal body metabolism, normal body functions, and nitrogen loss is 20-30 grams, with 30 being for an individual that weighs 170 lbs, and 20 grams for an individual weighing 110. In this case, I would have been consuming 10 more grams that necessary for an individual of my stature. With that in mind, the actual minimum protein requirement for an individual at ~0.4g per kg/BW, rounded up.

    Additionally, I have literature pertaining to the minimum amount of essential amino acids, as well as amino acid profiles supplied by different protein sources, ensuring that I do not become deficient in not only protein, but essential amino acids either. The last thing I'm trying to do here is injure myself, so I've done my part by researching in depth the facets of what I plan on doing.

    I know it's a bit difficult to wrap your head around those figures, but the fact is that the body is one of the most adaptable environments known. It can not only take this low intake of protein, but if studies, literature, and experimentation mean anything, it can bounce back from it more effectively than you could imagine. I invite you to check back in after I complete my first cycle, as I'll provide pictures and keep a log for any individual interested in potentially trying this.

    I do appreciate you voicing your views though, as like I stated, the last thing I'm attempting to do is increase risk of injury or become ill. Thanks again Jiigzz.
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    Hey bro, just here to say congrats on being on the winning side of an AI. I too am winning the battle.

    Don't agree with your article, just my O.

    Goodluck with it though
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medical420 View Post
    Hey bro, just here to say congrats on being on the winning side of an AI. I too am winning the battle.

    Don't agree with your article, just my O.

    Goodluck with it though
    I was fully prepared for the pending onslaught pertaining to that article's credibility, as well as content lol.

    Thanks for the congrats, glad to hear your doing great as well. Cannabinoids are certainly useful molecules when dealing with inflammatory autoimmune symptoms, aren't they.

    You also like naturopathy. Orthomolecular medicine is one of the most interesting topics I've ever come across. To think that we can potentially treat cancer without the use of carcinogenic ****tails and simply I.V. Vit C instead
    --------------------------------------------------------------------^Orly
    Last edited by CptKeithUSF; 09-07-2012 at 09:33 PM. Reason: Orly
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptKeithUSF View Post
    I was fully prepared for the pending onslaught pertaining to that article's credibility, as well as content lol.

    Thanks for the congrats, glad to hear your doing great as well. Cannabinoids are certainly a useful molecules when dealing with inflammatory autoimmune symptoms, aren't they.

    You also like naturopathy. Orthomolecular medicine is one of the most interesting topics I've ever come across. To think that we can potentially cancer without the use of carcinogenic ****tails and simply I.V. Vit C instead
    ---------------------------------------------------------------^Orly
    Re cannabanoids: for sure, being a non pot smoker previously and seeing the benefits while sick was mind blowing and relieving mentally and physically!

    And naturopathy is unbelievablely life changing. Modern medicine has it's place, just not with Auto Immune, IMO, I could write a book!
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    We really need other exercise scientists on this particular thread. Cel or Coop could shed some very serious light on that article.

    Do you have a link to that article? I would like to see who/ what was experimented on in order to attain those reusults or if its purely anecdotal evidence, something that can be explaind thorigh theory, but the reality of it isnt quite as straight forward. In fact ive never heard of anyone having any problems with a moderate (1.6-2.0g of protein per KG BW) intake. And this article just doesnt make any sense to me. Its like the Lipid hypothesis, somethign to get people scared about a particular macronutrient.

    Gaining muscle through massive consumption of protein is a "live by the sword, die by the sword" kind of concept. Let me explain. The body, in an attempt to dispose of excess protein, will shift metabolic gears, so to speak, and preferentially use protein via gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis for energy. This may sound tolerable (even though we just discussed the associated toxicity) but what happens if, God forbid, you miss a meal or two? Guess what?all those enzymes sitting around chewing up all that excess protein for energy are still there, turned on full blast, using muscle for fuel at nearly the same rate that you were consuming your protein. Your gains will soon disappear via the adage "easy come, easy go."

    This paragraph was amusing, yes, when protein needs exceed the bodys capacity to synthesize them the body can utilize SOME amino acids for fuel (known as branch chain amino acids) while others are converted to fat via deamination. This seems to be referring to very INTENSE intakes of protein that probably exceed 3-4g per KF BW if not more. Muscles mass is not readily cataolize for fuel unless the body has no other option for fuel. Assuming that macro goals are met for the day, irregardless of when that meal was eaten, muscle mass should not be used for fuel because they body doesnt need to.

    And; for my last argument, dropping one macronutrient will mean that I will have to eat more of something else (whether fats or carbohydrate) to meet my macro goals. There are many research topics on eating too much of these macro nutrients as well and the negitive outcomes of such.

    Where was this article sourced?
  

  
 

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