Elbows : Good or Bad for MMA?

[jas123]

I'm sort of torn on this issue. Seeing Sherk-Raddach the other day reminded me of how impressive elbow work from the top can be, sliding them in from all sorts of angles with great force. Tito is no doubt an artist with the elbows as well. I also like seeing guys slip them in in the clinch or on a break from clinching. However, seeing fights like Sherk-Florian that were almost stopped by a weak elbow from the bottom because of a cut, it seems like they can lead to many unsatisfying conclusions and messy scars for the fighters.

What do you think?

 

[stxnas]

I like elbows because it adds another dimension to a fighter. Guys that master effective elbow strikes bring a little more action to the ground IE OLD David Loiseau (not as of late though...not sure what's going on with him) or the aforementioned K-Flo.

I like to see most strikes kept legal anyway though. I would really like to see similar striking rules to that of Pride, but allow elbows as well. Not sure how international fights will vary with rules with all of these new mergers though.

 

[Rodja]

Standing or to the body, yes. Downward on the ground, no. I have seen too many, even though the overall % is low, fights end by cut.

 

[Amazon Doll]

I hate seeing a fight end with a cut and elbows are good for that, but I love the added dimension it adds.

 

[size]

I voted bad, and my opinion is in line with what Rodja wrote. When standing, I can understand using elbows and allowing them. On the ground, I think too many fights can be decided by an elbow which I do not like. The idea of fights ending from a cut caused by an elbow is unsatisfying and not entertaining in my mind.

MMA is sport fighting so having rules in place to allow more entertaining fights where skill is essential is ideal in my mind.

 

[stxnas]

I know Rodja is a fighter, are you too Size? I was just wondering b/c I can definitely understand being against elbows from a fighter's stand point (amongst other reasons as well).

 

[size]

I know Rodja is a fighter, are you too Size? I was just wondering b/c I can definitely understand being against elbows from a fighter's stand point (amongst other reasons as well).

I have competed in grappling and spar often but I would not consider myself a fighter.

 

[Beowulf]

I like standing elbows, and think they are badly underused. I think they are valid on the ground, but I don't like the Tito Ortiz one-dimensional style of relying on them. I think they probably belong, despite the cuts, but I'm not a big fan. The PRIDE GnP of guys like Fedor and Shogun is so much more exciting.

 

[WillB123]

no elbows on the ground. i want to see a fight damnit, not see some dude lose just because he got cut 30seconds into the thing

 

[ersatz]

Elbows ultimately do more harm than good but I'd almost rather see less restrictions that more. I favor Vale Tudo rules to a degree.

You have to wonder if the lack of a universal rule set not to mention environment(cage or ring) ultimately hurts the sport. Each promotion uses varying rule sets and modifications to the cage or ring. It would make it easier for fighters and fans if there were universal conditions. But boxing has slight modifications between states and organizations and it doesn't seem to hamper the sport. But the changes are minor and don't effect the techniques that can be used.

In the end I would rather they excluded elbows to the head of a downed opponent and permit knees in its place.

 

[Sir Savage]

Benji told me he was pissed about that stoppage against Sherk. And honestly, maybe he was right- I don't remember it being a tremendous cut.

But I like elbows. They're one more tool to make a fight dynamic. I don't think they should be taken out. I think they should be added TO. For example, I think knees on the ground should be implemented alongside them. Let's see what fighters can do when a guy on top can use both as weapons.

And as far as the "elbow LnP" argument goes, I'm with Rogan on that. If you can't get a guy off of you who is nailing you with elbows, well, too bad.

 

[Rogue Drone]

If I was a fighter, I would put a Fentanyl patch over that leftover Scrotal Skin and then file my Elbows razor sharp to slice and dice those *****es.

 

[jas123]

Savage, do you sponsor Benji? The stoppage did look premature to me. Man, Sherk looked like a little munchkin next to Benji.

If you're landing elbows, it's not LnP in my book.

 

[Sir Savage]

Used to, yeah- for a little while.

 

[exnihilo]

I think they should just add some sort of elbow covering to reduce the incidence of cuts. I like the technical aspect elbows bring to the game though... They're a new tool to use, but they're perfectly defendable, if you know how to control distance with your hips in the guard.

 

[Alexander]

I think they should just add some sort of elbow covering to reduce the incidence of cuts. I like the technical aspect elbows bring to the game though... They're a new tool to use, but they're perfectly defendable, if you know how to control distance with your hips in the guard.

Never thought of that. With the right design that could really work out. Just something with decently thick padding that wouldn't slip off. Good idea.

 

[jas123]

After more thought, I think I like elbows. The percentage of fights stopped by cut is pretty small (probably < 2%) and the added dimension makes it worth it.

 

[Beowulf]

I like Ex's idea, but I don't see how they wouldn't slip constantly. Even those slips for shooting always slide off and bunch up; if they're too tight they cut off your circulation...or maybe it's b/c I have chicken legs...and chicken arms

 

[Alexander]

I like Ex's idea, but I don't see how they wouldn't slip constantly. Even those slips for shooting always slide off and bunch up; if they're too tight they cut off your circulation...or maybe it's b/c I have chicken legs...and chicken arms

You might be right about the slippage. I think with the proper design it wouldn't be too bad. The elbow pads would also make some submissions easier I would think, specifically armbars.

 

[jas123]

The pad is a decent idea, but I think it would be awkward, limit mobility, and soften the blows (which I don't like).

 

[brass monkey]

EX try to market it. If it were made of neoprene of some other sort of synthetic rubber it would not slip.
I think I think remember some of the early UFC's someone wearing elbow pads.

 

[exnihilo]

The pad is a decent idea, but I think it would be awkward, limit mobility, and soften the blows (which I don't like).

Those factors all depend on how they're constructed. The softening of the blows is an issue, I'd rather fights end quickly than be long, grinding affairs, but cuts are the worst possible way for a fight to end.

 

[PHWSSJ]

I voted bad, and my opinion is in line with what Rodja wrote. When standing, I can understand using elbows and allowing them. On the ground, I think too many fights can be decided by an elbow which I do not like. The idea of fights ending from a cut caused by an elbow is unsatisfying and not entertaining in my mind.

MMA is sport fighting so having rules in place to allow more entertaining fights where skill is essential is ideal in my mind.

agreed!
i would also like to see heel hooks taken out because those can potentially end a career or postpone one for a very long time. They are way too dangerous IMO

 

[ersatz]

agreed!
i would also like to see heel hooks taken out because those can potentially end a career or postpone one for a very long time. They are way too dangerous IMO

Get rid of armbars, kneebars, kimuras too then cuz they can cause career ending joint damage. If the fighter is too foolish to tap then they can incur the consequences.

As for the elbow padding it wouldn't work. Even neoprene slips as evident by anyone that wears knee wraps/pads. But the thinness of the pad wouldn't dramatically reduce the force of the strike.

 

[size]

agreed!
i would also like to see heel hooks taken out because those can potentially end a career or postpone one for a very long time. They are way too dangerous IMO

I certainly do NOT want to see heel hooks removed. I would like to see elbows removed or the rules adjusted only to stop fights from ending prematurely due to a cut.

 

[LakeMountD]

I hate seeing a fight end with a cut and elbows are good for that, but I love the added dimension it adds.

My EXACT opinion. I wouldn't want it to go away since it does add that nice dimension, but fights ending in cuts definitely suck. It is very hard to defend the elbow on the ground for sure though.

 

[PHWSSJ]

Get rid of armbars, kneebars, kimuras too then cuz they can cause career ending joint damage. If the fighter is too foolish to tap then they can incur the consequences.

As for the elbow padding it wouldn't work. Even neoprene slips as evident by anyone that wears knee wraps/pads. But the thinness of the pad wouldn't dramatically reduce the force of the strike.

That just sounds straight up ignorant!
from what you are saying it sounds like you do not know the mechanics of a heel hook and why its the most dangerous submission.

First of all, all other joint lock submissions deal with some form of hyperextension. They are very painful and it takes some effort to do some hardcore dammage. You would have to be a complete piece of sh1t to do really seriouse career altering/ending dammage to someone, because the fact that the guy you are doing a joint lock submission on has time to tapp and scream out in pain before you get to the point of completely tearing something out. There is a pretty good range of motion you would have to go through to do something seriouse. Not to mention the fact that you would feel all kinds of cracking and tearing that would signal you to stop. If you are in competition and you feel the guy tap or scream out in pain and you keep cranking then you are a skum bucket piece of sh1t.

That is not the case with the heelhook. The heel hook attacks the ACL.. you do not feel any real pain untill your ACL pops..there is no gradual poping or tearing, the ACL just pops in half and by then its too late to tap, scream, or stop cranking. And the range of motion and effort required to do that particular submission is verry small.
And the ACL is just the first thing to go, once it tears there are a bunch of ther things that can be damaged...
I have heard of too many people and seen it first hand in tournaments and fights where guys crank heel hooks, and hurt their opponent seriously... by seriously i mean surgery is needed, after which you have to learn how to walk again and your leg will probably never be as strong and stable as it used to be.

No one is going to miss heel hooks, no one is going to be like "damn those heel hooks were soo exciting to see.. i wish they bring them back"... taking out keel hooks would only help the sport not hurt it.
If you think otherwise your just ignorant.

 

[Godlike]

I second PHWSSJ's comments about heel locks. I was injured my second day of class by one, and not by some inexperienced sparring partner but by my coach demonstrating on me. I was
better the next week but it could have been much worse with maybe a milimeter more twist.

 

[Brother]

elbows are great, knees are great, soccer kicks to the head..face stomp..... hell i think they should let head butts back in. stoping a fight by a cut should be illegal.

 

[PHWSSJ]

elbows are great, knees are great, soccer kicks to the head..face stomp..... hell i think they should let head butts back in. stoping a fight by a cut should be illegal.

no it shouldnt.

it depends on the cut... if its over the eye and you have blood in your eye, that means you cant see... which means your going to get knocked the fock out by something you didnt see comming.
its like fighting with your eyes closed ... its for the saftey of the fighter.


rules are put for a reason
does that make sense?

 

[Brother]

no it shouldnt.

it depends on the cut... if its over the eye and you have blood in your eye, that means you cant see... which means your going to get knocked the fock out by something you didnt see comming.
its like fighting with your eyes closed ... its for the saftey of the fighter.


rules are put for a reason
does that make sense?

.... if your a chick

 

[Jumper]

I would not lose any sleep if they removed elbows from the ground. I also would not cry if they removed knees and kicks to the head of downed fighters in Pride.

 

[Brother]

man... maybe you guys need to check out some points karate or something

 

[Jumper]

What do you mean? What does points fighting have to do with what we are talking about? I have an idea what you are insinuating, but why don't you just spell it out.

Nevermind. I see where you are coming from. I found your original post in this thread.

For the record, I could not disagree more.

 

[BingeAndPurge]

I honestly don't care either way. The more dimmensions the better, but nothing says garbage more than announcing in your prefight that one of your strategies is to open a cut with some elbows, as I've seen some fighters do.

 

[Jumper]

I honestly don't care either way. The more dimmensions the better, but nothing says garbage more than announcing in your prefight that one of your strategies is to open a cut with some elbows, as I've seen some fighters do.

I understand your distaste for that sort of rhetoric. I don't go for that either. But honesly, looking to cut your opponent and secure a win is a valid strategy. Even if guys don't speak about it directly. It sounds crass, but would it be as bad to target a cut once it develops? Should a trainer instruct his fighter to target an opponent's cut in order to aggrevate it and perhaps win a decision for his fighter? I don't think fighters are out to maim or injure necessarily, but a smart fighter will attack an opponent's weakness, and a cut is definately that. If you don't want fighters to talk about "carving a guy up" with elbows, then maybe elbows have to go.

Rock on brother!

 

[Alexander]

man... maybe you guys need to check out some points karate or something

Damn, you must be a badass

 

[Jumper]

Damn, you must be a badass

:toofunny: :bruce3:

 

[somewhatgifted]

Im in favor of devastating KO's over relentless brain damage casuing punches, not that elbows are good but a quick means to an end. They should get rid of cuts, damn cuts.

 

[Brother]

look... the fight game really is just that, its a FIGHT. They have made it more of a sport to conform to mainstream. I just favor leting them do their thing. I mean where does it stop? Someone will say a hook is a vicious thing then no heel hooks beacuse of the damage and so on. I do however like having rounds and standing them up when it stalls. I just like devestating stikes. Call me a sissy I guess. And no Im not a badd ass, I just like bad ass fights.

 

[PHWSSJ]

I understand your distaste for that sort of rhetoric. I don't go for that either. But honesly, looking to cut your opponent and secure a win is a valid strategy. Even if guys don't speak about it directly. It sounds crass, but would it be as bad to target a cut once it develops? Should a trainer instruct his fighter to target an opponent's cut in order to aggrevate it and perhaps win a decision for his fighter? I don't think fighters are out to maim or injure necessarily, but a smart fighter will attack an opponent's weakness, and a cut is definately that. If you don't want fighters to talk about "carving a guy up" with elbows, then maybe elbows have to go.

Rock on brother!

verry good point!

you know its really hard to say elbows or no elbows.
It just sucks to loose by a cut cuz you feel like you can still fight, you didnt give up, and you are still conciouse...so your gona be pissed that you lost. The question is can you defend yourself. That is when the fight gets stopped. Sometimes the ref makes a good call sometimes the ref makes a piece of
sh1t call.
Most of you guys that are against stopping a fight for a cut probably never have had blood running into your eyes to where you cant see. If your in a fight and cant see... thats just bad news!

I would rather have knees on the ground than elbows. Soccer kicks...mmm i could live without, but wouldnt bother me if i had to fight in a fight that allowed them. face stomps are too cool those are a must! fock the heel hooks! Keep the elbows its a fight.
A cut by a sharp elbow is way better than getting you head bashed in or stomped on, or having your ACL ripped in half.

i would take stitches over brain dammage anyday!

 

[PHWSSJ]

.... if your a chick

I'd love to see you get in the ring or cage and eat your words TOUGH GUY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Brother]

I'd love to see you get in the ring or cage and eat your words TOUGH GUY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

name the time and place tough guy :food:

 

[texxlnghorn]

GOOD= because it's a FIGHT.
If you get in a fight, your not going to throw elbows?

MMA started because it was supposed to be real fights.
I agree,
1. no punches or kicks to the balls(intentally)
2. no eye pooks, or fish hooks.