couture vs lesnar

[elscotto]

it seems the odds are stacked against the natural but i think experience and his conditioning will see him thru, but lesnar is a beast wit heavy hands could be a good fight but not really the greatest fight in mma history like all the adverts are saying any thoughts?

 

[ryaroberts]

if randy loses then UFC loses. the reputation of UFC will go down the drain. im pretty sure since he is "one" of the faces of the UFC that they are hoping randy wins. they have already lost a vast majority of their top fighters to other companies. the ufc isnt as good as it was a few years back. a lot of top notch fighters are not there or are no longer in their prime. they are no more "big names" out there to watch and excite anymore. chuck is starting to fall apart. i think hes lost 3 outta last 4 fights. if randy loses i only see the UFC going further down hill.

 

[AE14]

actually I think Dana would love to see Randy completely dominated. He is looking for a heavyweight he can build around and Lesnar is a marketing dream. He knows how to sell himself, for good or bad, and if he dominates Couture (which is very likely) then all of a sudden he is an MMA superstar

 

[ryaroberts]

its about credibility. if randy loses (who has fought many many good fights) they have no credibility to mma. if a nobody walks in with very little skill and just sits and pushes randy around b/c of his size it doesnt show the talent of the UFC. i do not see lesnar as a marketing tool. hes a nobody with nobody skills. you saw how easily he got submitted to a bjj fighter. i do not think dana wants to see randy lose. its all about watching legit real fighters compete and show of their talents and perform at the highest level. i do not see lesnar as the "highest level" of competition. you cant market someone with no fighting experience.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

if randy loses then UFC loses. the reputation of UFC will go down the drain. im pretty sure since he is "one" of the faces of the UFC that they are hoping randy wins. they have already lost a vast majority of their top fighters to other companies. the ufc isnt as good as it was a few years back. a lot of top notch fighters are not there or are no longer in their prime. they are no more "big names" out there to watch and excite anymore. chuck is starting to fall apart. i think hes lost 3 outta last 4 fights. if randy loses i only see the UFC going further down hill.

Huh? Dana hopes for the exact opposite to happen, or he would not have made this fight. The vast majority of UFC-specific fans, brought in by the TUF-era, do not know nor care about overall MMA credibility. Brock is a transcendent figure, in that he has charisma, he is massive, he is athletic, and brings crossover fame from the WWE - Dana signed him hoping he would topple some of the Top HWs.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

its about credibility. if randy loses (who has fought many many good fights) they have no credibility to mma. if a nobody walks in with very little skill and just sits and pushes randy around b/c of his size it doesnt show the talent of the UFC. i do not see lesnar as a marketing tool. hes a nobody with nobody skills. you saw how easily he got submitted to a bjj fighter. i do not think dana wants to see randy lose. its all about watching legit real fighters compete and show of their talents and perform at the highest level. i do not see lesnar as the "highest level" of competition. you cant market someone with no fighting experience.

No offense, but do you watch MMA? Have you seen a UFC event? I am not trying to be derogatory, but your opinion of the UFC seems disconnected with reality.

People wish to see powerful, strong, and explosive athletes. The segments of Dana's market who think in the way you are expressing are few and far between; mostly relegated to forums such as this one. The average MMA fan does not know nor care about talent - it is for this reason they boo two BJJ practitioners who are not throwing punches.

Of course Dana wants to see Lesnar crush Randy, or this match would not have been made.

 

[ryaroberts]

been watching since 03'. seen every ppv event since then. i do agree that most fans do not understand nor care about talent. you brought up a good point about them "booing two bjj practitioners". me personally i appreciate the grappling/submission much more than a punch. this match happend b/c randy had no one else to fight. the only person he wanted to fight was fedor and that wasnt going to happen. he left b/c he was getting screwed out of money. when randy won against tim he got paid less than when chuck lost to rampage. thats why he left. now that hes back there are only new faces for him to fight.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Awesome, so you have seen every crowd for the past 3-5 years boo any two fighters who dare play a technical ground game? People do not want to see:

legit real fighters compete and show of their talents and perform at the highest level.

As sad as that is for me to say, it is by far the case. Brock is a 285lb former NCAA Div I wrestler with a marketable personality and crossover market segments from the WWE - a segment which Dana is very, very clearly marketing towards. He is a marketing dream (rightfully or wrongfully).

 

[flobot]

I'm w/ Mulletsoldier in this one.

Lesnar is Not a Kimbo SLice if that's what you're thinking Ryaroberts. That guy is an Exceptional Wrestler, about the same level or better than Randy Couture's. Better than Koscheck's. And his hands are heavy, seeing how he made Mir topple with one or two hits.

If Randy loses, it's OK because Lesnar is just as if not more accomplished a wrestler than Randy. If Mir (Black Belt in BJJ) loses that would've been unacceptable because Lesnar isn't a BJJ expert.

Edit: It would be a good match I think with Randy's great boxing skills vs. Lesnar's heavy hands. 2 wrestlers of the same level fighting tend to end up striking.

 

[jas123]

This fight is a win-win for the UFC. It should do big numbers first of all. If Couture wins, he's built up and can handle a huge, accomplished wrestler. If Brock wins, he positioned to be the next superstar with a recognizable name and legit wrestling cred.

Brock's new, but has some great credentials.

UFC loses cred? If you mean the sport in general, I get what you're going for (don't necessarily agree). But if you mean the UFC specifically, who has more cred than them? EXC's gone, strikeforce is a good but small promotion, affliction is on shakey financial ground as is Dream, and Sengoku is sort of blah in terms of quality fights.

 

[AE14]

rya I hate to say that you have it all backwards. Dana and the UFC cant lose. Brock looked dominant against Mir, before making a rookie mistake, which was expected by many. Against Herring, he dominated a solid fighter with a lot of experience. Should he beat Randy, he flys into the marketing stratosphere. As was said here by Mullet, Brock hits quite a few different markets for the UFC, and he sells himself exceptionally well, I guess being in the WWE paid off for him.

He is a very skilled athlete, who is still learning. However, his natural skills, size and strength should get him through

 

[elscotto]

i have a feeling that dana is trying to make the next superstar at a legends expence and if dana gets his way and gets fans to cross over from wwe to ufc.then look out have u seen how many fools watch wwe but it will also bring in even more posers :icon_lol:

 

[jas123]

i have a feeling that dana is trying to make the next superstar at a legends expence

It wouldn't be the first time.

Shamrock-Franklin
Shamrock-Tito II to rebuild Tito's legacy
Gracie-Hughes
Coleman-Brock (Coleman got injured)
Coleman-Shogun (pending)

In the future:
Chuck-??????

 

[Rodja]

if randy loses then UFC loses. the reputation of UFC will go down the drain. im pretty sure since he is "one" of the faces of the UFC that they are hoping randy wins. they have already lost a vast majority of their top fighters to other companies. the ufc isnt as good as it was a few years back. a lot of top notch fighters are not there or are no longer in their prime. they are no more "big names" out there to watch and excite anymore. chuck is starting to fall apart. i think hes lost 3 outta last 4 fights. if randy loses i only see the UFC going further down hill.

Do you realize how bad this makes you sound? Yeah, I am bored everytime Wand, GSP, Rampage, BJ, etc fight. Seriously, do you think that MMA sucks now that Chuck has been exposed?

 

[AE14]

There are still so many guys out there that are at such a high level. In just the UFC (in addition to Rodja's mentions)
Anderson
Alves
Forrest (I hate to admit that)
Miguel Torres etc....


I wpuld have said Filho, until last week. yikes

 

[2gcorey]

i hate to say it, but it's a known fact lesnar is a roid freak big time. He put on soooo much mass when he left d1 and went to pro wrestling. If he takes off in ufc then expect more guys to "bulk up" and have it be more about size, show, etc...it's a short route to WWE. I hope it doesn't happen and i hope the guys like mir shut lesnar down hardcore. "keep it real" imo...i don't want to see more people leave d1, do anything to bulk up and get bigger then the next guy, then join ufc. I don't have a problem with steroids, but imo ufc is pretty clean and i hope it stays that way and agood start is shutting down lesnar HARDCORE. I hope someone absolutely dominates him. don't let him tap out, let him go and pound him, pound him more, and pound him back to WWE.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

i hate to say it, but it's a known fact lesnar is a roid freak big time. He put on soooo much mass when he left d1 and went to pro wrestling. If he takes off in ufc then expect more guys to "bulk up" and have it be more about size, show, etc...it's a short route to WWE. I hope it doesn't happen and i hope the guys like mir shut lesnar down hardcore. "keep it real" imo...i don't want to see more people leave d1, do anything to bulk up and get bigger then the next guy, then join ufc. I don't have a problem with steroids, but imo ufc is pretty clean and i hope it stays that way and agood start is shutting down lesnar HARDCORE. I hope someone absolutely dominates him. don't let him tap out, let him go and pound him, pound him more, and pound him back to WWE.

Josh Barnett
Tim Sylvia
Sean Sherk

To name a few. There are others I am forgetting, but your point is:

:think:

 

[Menacer]

i hate to say it, but it's a known fact lesnar is a roid freak big time. He put on soooo much mass when he left d1 and went to pro wrestling. If he takes off in ufc then expect more guys to "bulk up" and have it be more about size, show, etc...it's a short route to WWE. I hope it doesn't happen and i hope the guys like mir shut lesnar down hardcore. "keep it real" imo...i don't want to see more people leave d1, do anything to bulk up and get bigger then the next guy, then join ufc. I don't have a problem with steroids, but imo ufc is pretty clean and i hope it stays that way and agood start is shutting down lesnar HARDCORE. I hope someone absolutely dominates him. don't let him tap out, let him go and pound him, pound him more, and pound him back to WWE.

Since Randy is "The Natural" right? Brock just has a much bigger frame to work with being a true heavyweight.

 

[flobot]

If Couture can still take a punch then he should be OK. If he can't then he's doomed...

 

[VolcomX311]

its about credibility. if randy loses (who has fought many many good fights) they have no credibility to mma. if a nobody walks in with very little skill and just sits and pushes randy around b/c of his size it doesnt show the talent of the UFC. i do not see lesnar as a marketing tool. hes a nobody with nobody skills. you saw how easily he got submitted to a bjj fighter. i do not think dana wants to see randy lose. its all about watching legit real fighters compete and show of their talents and perform at the highest level. i do not see lesnar as the "highest level" of competition. you cant market someone with no fighting experience.

Chuck is by NO MEANS, the culmination of MMA talent of the UFC. He boxes with bad form and his ground game consists primarily, if not solely of sprawling.

I was surprised he was champ as long as he was.

Furthermore, Brock Lesnar isn't some shmuck, ogre beast who's only talent is strength. His Division I "CHAMPION" wrestling background places his Resume toward the upper portion of the stack. Lots of successful UFC fighters emerged and started from a strong wrestling background, and MOST weren't "champions" like Brock was.

Chuck was a big name of popularity, not a big name of talent. Using Chuck Lidell to defend MMA culture or the legitimacy of the UFC is a real bad example.

I could go on for days, but I'll just have to say I respectfully disagree.

Go Brock.

 

[somewhatgifted]

IF randy was to beat lesnar would you not contemplate that WWE fans would sit up and say "wow these ufc guys are for real". That would be assuming WWE fans actually care about talent and who would actually win in a fight, over, who says the most badass things and looks big.

On the other hand if brock won..... How many fans would the UFC pick up?

I just dont see lesnar bringing a solid five round fight to randy, if he slips up he's done.

Has brock even been hit yet???

Before he beats randy think about if he can take a punch.

I see brock winning a controversial descision if randy cant capitalise early, not cause he's better but the UFC's descisions are horrendous.

 

[pistonpump]

its about credibility. if randy loses (who has fought many many good fights) they have no credibility to mma. if a nobody walks in with very little skill and just sits and pushes randy around b/c of his size it doesnt show the talent of the UFC. i do not see lesnar as a marketing tool. hes a nobody with nobody skills. you saw how easily he got submitted to a bjj fighter. i do not think dana wants to see randy lose. its all about watching legit real fighters compete and show of their talents and perform at the highest level. i do not see lesnar as the "highest level" of competition. you cant market someone with no fighting experience.

i dont understand your reasoning..... lesnar is ufc and anyone who beats the vets is in the ufc so how does a few guys falling off make the ufc weak when guys are coming up??? makes no sense to me. couture is old so is chuck it becomes accepted that these guys will have trouble just based on that alone. im with the other guy i think dana would rather see brock win so he could market him even further. we already know about randy and what he is capable of i think people want to know what brock is capable of now. its a good match.

 

[pistonpump]

Furthermore, Brock Lesnar isn't some shmuck, ogre beast who's only talent is strength.


I could go on for days, but I'll just have to say I respectfully disagree.

Go Brock.

haha

i feel kind of bad because i didnt read the whole thread before i responded to ryaroberts post....feel kind of bad lol everyone picked apart his posts. bad posts ryaroberts

 

[jas123]

Since Randy is "The Natural" right? Brock just has a much bigger frame to work with being a true heavyweight.

:lol: Nice. It seems pretty clear from pics that Randy uses GH. Rogan's also mentioned him using HRT and as Mullet mentioned many others use too. Even Matt Hughes looked much bigger in around the 2004 era. Royce Gracie?

Brock's probably used, of course, but he just passed a random drug test a few weeks ago. He looked pretty damn big as a D-1 wrestler too. A little oil, tan, and lighting in the WWE probably made him look much bigger too. A lot of his mass is just genetic and a result of hard work and a huge frame IMO.

This fight will be won in the first few minutes IMO. If Brock gets a takedown and a dominant position early then it will be his night. If Couture can establish a rythm and start to wear Brock down, it's his. Couture can wear Brock down and gas him out if he can establish control. Brock's so big that he will gas out under these circumstances.

 

[elscotto]

this is a little off subject but i decided god knows why that i should search lesnar on youtbe and it came up wit all his old wwf stuff and dude he was pretty huge but what desturbed me the most is when the camera went thru the crowd there was dudes wearing tapout shirts :toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny: that amuses me no end but in all seriouseness lesnar is a beast and if he beats randy then he could be an actual star in ufc but i would prefer if captain america gator roles him in 2nd round:head:

 

[VolcomX311]

this is a little off subject but i decided god knows why that i should search lesnar on youtbe and it came up wit all his old wwf stuff and dude he was pretty huge but what desturbed me the most is when the camera went thru the crowd there was dudes wearing tapout shirts :toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny: that amuses me no end but in all seriouseness lesnar is a beast and if he beats randy then he could be an actual star in ufc but i would prefer if captain america gator roles him in 2nd round:head:

I'm not "against" Randy or anything, but I'm not for Brock on purely subjective reasons, such as, "because I like him." Brock is a sincere threat and not JUST because he's a beast. He's got animalistic athleticism and a wrestling background of the UTMOST legitimacy. That said, a small piece of me will be rooting for the natural out of respect, but I'll be yelling at the screen for Brock.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I'm not "against" Randy or anything, but I'm not for Brock on purely subjective reasons, such as, "because I like him." Brock is a sincere threat and not JUST because he's a beast. He's got animalistic athleticism and a wrestling background of the UTMOST legitimacy. That said, a small piece of me will be rooting for the natural out of respect, but I'll be yelling at the screen for Brock.

Exactly. If you look back, I was one of the individual's who was skeptic of his ability to transition, but always respected his pedigree. How can you not? It is NCAA Div One Heavyweight National Title - that is incredible.

 

[Rodja]

Exactly. If you look back, I was one of the individual's who was skeptic of his ability to transition, but always respected his pedigree. How can you not? It is NCAA Div One Heavyweight National Title - that is incredible.

And with a mean streak. I still have no idea how this is going to play out, though.

 

[flobot]

Which is what makes it so exciting to talk about. This is an awesome thread

 

[somewhatgifted]

but does brocks face eat punches?

 

[flobot]

We'll find out for sure when the fight comes. I have no doubt that Randy, with his superior boxing skills, will be able to deliver a few hits.

I bet Brock will go low and strike Randy's legs first w/ kicks. (Weird as that may sound -- Brock Lesnar kicking?) But I believe that he's really trying to learn to be a complete fighter and recognizing that he has to keep Randy's boxing at bay would be a sign of improvement in his stand-up.

Edit: Plus being an awesome wrestler, he shouldn't have to worry about Randy's takedowns.

but does brocks face eat punches?

 

[dynomite]

Randy in round 3 by stoppage

 

[elscotto]

We'll find out for sure when the fight comes. I have no doubt that Randy, with his superior boxing skills, will be able to deliver a few hits.

I bet Brock will go low and strike Randy's legs first w/ kicks. (Weird as that may sound -- Brock Lesnar kicking?) But I believe that he's really trying to learn to be a complete fighter and recognizing that he has to keep Randy's boxing at bay would be a sign of improvement in his stand-up.

Edit: Plus being an awesome wrestler, he shouldn't have to worry about Randy's takedowns.

well it was once said that randy couldnt take tito down and it couldnt be done IM DONE COUNTING RANDY COUTURE OUT FARK THAT quote dana white so dont count the 'old man' out just yet i predict couture wins :head:

 

[AE14]

And with a mean streak. I still have no idea how this is going to play out, though.

this is my issue as well. I can visulaize so many varying endings here it makes this a highly anticipated card for me

 

[ThomasRivera]

I'm counting on Brock to rush in with a knee or a punch within the first few seconds of the match. Brock had also powered out of the first of Mir's submission attempts. I think Brock is too big, too strong and too powerful for Couture. Of course Couture has the tecnique and experience advantage, but I think Brock is just going to explode on him.

 

[flobot]

The explosion from Brock is inevitable. Would he be able to sustain it though even just in Round 2 if he can't take Randy down

 

[ThomasRivera]

I think he has good enough endurance to be able to. The weight difference is also going to play a big hand, Brock is probably able to cut a lot of weight to make that 265 that he appears at.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Endurance is relative to your opponent, let's remember. While he is obviously removed from his NCAA1 days, Brock is a pedigreed wrestler; that takes the utmost of endurance. I agree that MMA endurance is an entirely different ball-game, and is probably the greatest confluence of aerobic and anaerobic endurance on the planet, but I don't see Brock gassing.

 

[AE14]

I also dont see this going 5 rounds. Personally if Brock gets it to the ground, I see a tko rather quickly. However, my thought is if he shoots in a little too agressively I could see Randy catching him with a knee or something to that effect.

 

[Dancebot 2000]

I want Randy to win so bad, because I HATE Brock. Sooo much hate. But I really think Lesnar takes this. It's a bad match up for Couture. And although there is the whole "Randy always wins when he's not supose to" thing, too many people are picking him to win for him to be a real underdog. Randy is not good off his back, and I can't see Lesnar not putting im there early in the fight.

But, it's MMA, so.....

 

[jas123]

Endurance is relative to your opponent, let's remember. While he is obviously removed from his NCAA1 days, Brock is a pedigreed wrestler; that takes the utmost of endurance. I agree that MMA endurance is an entirely different ball-game, and is probably the greatest confluence of aerobic and anaerobic endurance on the planet, but I don't see Brock gassing.

Wrestling is a 3 period 7 minute match, and bulky wrestlers can definitely gas (Coleman, Randleman...). I expect to see Lesnar gassing if it makes it into the later rounds unless he can LnP on Couture. Then again Lesnar trains with Sherk and Co. so maybe I'm completely wrong, but big, muscular, and heavily fast-twitch = gassing to me.

I'm taking Couture to win by decision, although 4th or 5th round stoppage mainly due to Brock's exhaustion is likely too, but I think I'll know early in the fight who will win as I said before.

 

[Dancebot 2000]

I think Couture's best bet is to test Brock's lateral movement. Keep circling and peppering with jabs and maybe some over hand rights. Maybe go for the clinch since he has the GR experience. If he can put Lesnar on his back, he'd be in trouble.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Wrestling is a 3 period 7 minute match, and bulky wrestlers can definitely gas (Coleman, Randleman...). I expect to see Lesnar gassing if it makes it into the later rounds unless he can LnP on Couture. Then again Lesnar trains with Sherk and Co. so maybe I'm completely wrong, but big, muscular, and heavily fast-twitch = gassing to me.

I'm taking Couture to win by decision, although 4th or 5th round stoppage mainly due to Brock's exhaustion is likely too, but I think I'll know early in the fight who will win as I said before.

They can, but some of the best gas tanks in all of MMA are wrestlers. Albeit they are lower weight classes, but once again endurance is relative (i.e., Sherk has as much muscle on his frame - relatively - as does Brock). I don't see Brock gassing, but that is me.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Also, I was alluding to the fact that pedigreed wrestlers have experience with dropping water weight/cutting, and usually retain more in the tank come fight time.

 

[jas123]

Brock seems to have the cut under control. I heard he was 270 yesterday according to Dana so he should be at 265 easily. I don't think he actually weighs that much over 265, maybe 275?

We'll see what happens. It's really an unpredictable fight to me.

Brock could KO Couture in 14 s or Randy could KO Brock in 5s (we don't know anything about his chin - I wouldn't bet on it of course). My guess is that Brock's chin is pretty solid since wrestlers have huge traps and necks to help absorb the blow. Sherk, Kos, Hughes, Coleman, ... can all take a punch reasonably well.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Yeah, this is one of the most anticipated fights of the year for me. Not necessarily because I think it is going to be such high quality, but, like you said, it is so variable! That, and I am really unsure who I want to win.

 

[VolcomX311]

Yeah, this is one of the most anticipated fights of the year for me. Not necessarily because I think it is going to be such high quality, but, like you said, it is so variable! That, and I am really unsure who I want to win.

I'm in the same boat. I'm probably a little more sure about who I do want to win, Brock, but the part of me that respects Randy will sort of have me rooting for him, too.

 

[ThomasRivera]

I think comparatively the only way to judge his actual ability to get hit could be gauged by that mishap he had in WWE where he landed on his head from a botched moonsault and still got up.

 

[flobot]

That's a massive IF (Lesnar on his back..)

I've seen Lesnar's wrestling matches from when he was younger and the guy totally dominates anybody that's not his size in wrestling. Randy's definitely not his size.

I suspect that Lesnar's not gonna attempt a take down early either since 2 wrestlers that start locking up and clinching can drain themselves bad. I still see this almost as a purely stand up fight w/ Lesnar's heavy hands and Randy's boxing. If Lesnar's fast enough to cut COuture's lateral movement then Couture's screwed.

I think Couture's best bet is to test Brock's lateral movement. Keep circling and peppering with jabs and maybe some over hand rights. Maybe go for the clinch since he has the GR experience. If he can put Lesnar on his back, he'd be in trouble.

 

[warriorway]

Hopefully Couture is learning some new tricks for this one too. He should be working on some submissions off his back.
Like my secret weapon the flying triangle choke. Seriously it works, if someones shooting in you sort of trap a hand down by there side, go down with them throwing your leg over their shoulder on the arm you trapped, then before they can even react you lock it in. Okay I don't see Randy doing anything like that, well have to see what his strategy will be.