Rogers was masterful, but did he cheat?
- 10-23-2006, 10:38 AM
Rogers was masterful, but did he cheat?
ESPN.com - COLUMNIST - Wojciechowski: TV cameras catch Rogers brown-handed
ESPN.com - MLB/PLAYOFFS2006 - Stark: Rogers was throwing some filthy stuff in Game 2
Sure he did. In all three post season wins. Watch the video link: "What was on Rogers' hand?"
Rule 8.02 of the good book (baseball's official rules) forbids the pitcher to "Have on his person, or in his possession, any foreign substance. For such infraction of this section (b) the penalty shall be immediate ejection from the game."Look at all these little kids takin' care of the music biz don't their bus'ness take good care of me...
- 10-23-2006, 11:44 AM
"Rogers pitched a scoreless first inning with the gunk on his hand. And then he pitched seven more scoreless innings without anything on his hand. In fact, one of the two hits he gave up came during the first, as did a walk. So he actually pitched better after his hand was clean."
- 10-23-2006, 11:46 AM
I am by no means overlooking his fabulous performance, with, or without the pine-tar. Cheating is cheating whether it improves your performance or not. No? Cheats win and lose.Look at all these little kids takin' care of the music biz don't their bus'ness take good care of me...
10-23-2006, 11:49 AM
true, but the way i see it 'innocent until proven guilty'. if he was actually caught cheating, then so be it.....but he wasn't. if OJ can get by with it, so can the gamber.
10-23-2006, 12:08 PM
Even though I'm a Redbird apologist, I'd like to give Rogers the benefit of the doubt due to the wet/cold. I'll check with an expert, my little bro, who is a professional umpire.
10-23-2006, 12:23 PM
Agreed. BUT, in game 2 of the WSC the umpire told him to wash off whatever he had on his hand.Originally Posted by Beelzebub
Rule 8.02 of the good book (baseball's official rules) forbids the pitcher to "Have on his person, or in his possession, any foreign substance. For such infraction of this section (b) the penalty shall be immediate ejection from the game."
Look at all these little kids takin' care of the music biz don't their bus'ness take good care of me...
10-23-2006, 12:25 PM
Click on one of my links in the first post and click in the video link on the right side: Watch the video link: "What was on Rogers' hand?". Listen to what the umpire says about it.
10-23-2006, 12:29 PM
I don't understand.
If he did something wrong why wasn't he kicked out?
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10-23-2006, 01:11 PM
If you look closely in some of the videos the "substace" has a shine to it.......last time i checked dirt didn't do that. Poor kenny caught brown handed. He pitched a hell of a game and actually got better as the night went on, but I think he got away with a cheat....
10-23-2006, 01:14 PM
I'm not disputing the fact that it really had no effect on his ability to perform, with or without it. But his actions were cheating and should be called such. Whether his perfromance was impaired or improved is not the issue. The umpiring staff, as well as La Russa, dropped the ball (punn intended).
10-23-2006, 01:41 PM
I couldn't agree more....a cheat is a cheat regardless if you win or lose. I'm a little surprised how it was handled. I mean mlb makes a big deal about the steroid cheaters...guess they overlooked the fact there's more than one way to cheat.
10-23-2006, 04:13 PM
Alright guys, here's the deal. I got this from my little bro, a pro umpire.
#1. LaRussa didn't follow baseball protocol. If he'd called time and approached the home plate umpire with the accusation, there would have been NO wiggle room. All Tony said was "my hitters are saying the ball is doing funny things". He was way too diplomatic. When checked at the manager's request, if it's there, then he's ejected.....period. Being a Cardinal fan, I didn't accept that initially. But, baseball rules and the way they are administered are just archaic in nature. I'll provide examples if needed.
#2. Diaz is "seriously covering his a$$". Pine Tar was on Rogers' hand. Why at the base of the thumb? When it's cold, the hand-to-mouth rule is waived/adjusted to allow both pitchers to blow into the pitching hand while on the dirt. Pine Tar must be warm to be truly sticky, which happens each time one blows into their fist. Then he simply wiped the pads of his first two digits across the warm/sticky substance.
Bottom line.....had LaRussa not been a pansy-a$$ (afraid of compromising his friendship with Leyland) and taken Preston Wilson's word, he'd have gone out DURING (not between) the inning, had Diaz check the hand for an illegal substance and we'd all be talking about how the Redbirds beat up on the Tigers bullpen all night long and have a commanding 2-0 series lead.
But he didn't (#1) so he (#2) didn't have to, so we're at 1-1 with non-baseball people all over the world not able to understand that baseball's rules/protocol are VERY unique. Hope this helps.
10-23-2006, 04:43 PM
i'd agree with most of that, except the possibility of a 2-0 series lead. either way, there's much baseball to be played.
10-23-2006, 04:44 PM
I also suspect this was his cause for hesitation......oh well it's in the books now on to game 3.Originally Posted by Innings Eater
10-23-2006, 06:40 PM
Didn't mean to sound like a jacka$$/know-it-all. I initially argued with my brother that it was STILL (Umpire) Diaz's responsibility.
It just bothered me as well that he's blatantly gotten away with it all of this postseason.
Actually, had the Cards prevailed.....I would not have cared that much.
In college, I knew a guy who would super glue a hole-punch sized circle of flesh-colored sandpaper to his glove hand. It was to help the ball achieve it's "intended aerodynamics" after rubbing the baseball in plain view after receiving it from the ump.
10-23-2006, 06:42 PM
It is often the opposing teams appeal. Look at the tag up rule for sac flyes. Umpires don't call it unless you appeal, and then you still have to use protocol in applying the tag.
10-23-2006, 10:39 PM
Exactly 5150. (Mr. VanHalen?) Illegal bat, missed base, illegal glove, checked swing, lacing too long on a pitcher's glove, etc. The baseball rulebook is so difficult to master partly because it used to contradict itself in so many occasions. I work NCAA baseball and still had to consult my "Jedi Master" Professional-Umpire-brother.
Edit: I could sit here and come up with examples all night. I took one capsule of my Stim X sample pack that arrived Saturday. All I can say is "Wow!".
10-24-2006, 04:25 AM
10-24-2006, 10:39 AM
The general public likes to think it will never know because Rogers has been such a "feel good story" as of late.Originally Posted by freezito
Those of us who know baseball know exactly what was there.
It was pine tar, OK.
The story should be about how stupid or blatant he was with his doctoring of the baseball.
There is no other reasonable/logical explanation. Period.
10-24-2006, 10:53 AM
I was laughing at the reporters who just took his misdirecting answers and comment. I would have railed him.
"So Mr. Rogers, there was some sort of "dirt clump" on your hand? Dirt clump? hmmmmm?!?"
10-24-2006, 06:43 PM
Yea B5150. I see where your comming from with this whole thing. As a baseball player, Yes he was cheating but not a single game is played without someone trying to cheat. ITS JUST HOW BASEBALL IS. why do u think everyones juiceing lol jk.
But seriously LaRussa didnt go after it because theres a 90% chance that his pitchers are cheating too. You have no clue how hard it is to throw a baseball well, let alone pitch when its under 40 degrees.
Remember when the White Sox played the Cards and LaRussa was almost sent away in a white coat because he freaked out about the Sox "stealing" signs from the outfeild. And stealing signs goes on each game. Hell in high school we had a kid who didnt play try to steal signs all game...lol
10-25-2006, 02:19 AM
Hell yeah so did we.....your right it's part of the game in a way....that is until you get caught, but a crafty cheater won't.Originally Posted by Distilled Water
10-26-2006, 07:19 AM
10-27-2006, 01:47 AM
I'll bet you hear later from LaRussa that he'd regret not being more forceful with his questioning of Rogers' hand. He enjoys the label of "baseball mastermind". He doesn't admit making mistakes too often.Originally Posted by Distilled Water
Re: pitching in 40 degree weather.....When do you think college baseball is played? It begins in February. All that's needed when it's really cold out is a semi-warm hand and a quick lick of the fingertips.....yes, even for a pitcher who relies on the breaking ball. Visible tar on the pitching hand is over the line.
Stealing signs IS part of the game. When done in person. i.e. When the catcher doesn't close his legs up enough and the first-base coach has an open view or a runner on second picks up the sequence. HOWEVER, when the pitch is being relayed from a TV in the clubhouse to the dugout to the batter, THAT's understood well as crossing the line, as well.
Pros also play under a different "code" that few of us are ever lucky enough to play under. A guy on the pine in the bigs would probably be embarassed/ashamed to relegate himself to stealing signs knowing he could be on that team later in the year.
End of rant, sorry.
10-27-2006, 10:23 AM
didn't that happen one time in the past with a subway series? i remember reading something about how one of the teams had posted a guy with binoculars (sp?) behind center field, and he would watch for the signs, then quickly radio to the base coaches, who would then signal the batter as to what was being pitched.Originally Posted by Innings Eater
10-27-2006, 01:37 PM
1 quick question......Do u even play baseball and if so @ what level??? Doesn't really sound like it...sorryOriginally Posted by Innings Eater
10-27-2006, 07:21 PM
My thoughts are Larussa knew Leyland knows what the Cards do, being he worked w/ them for 6 yrs. So he knew the cat would get out of the bag if he pushed the subject. All posistion cheat. Look @ a infielders glove full of pine tar.
10-30-2006, 11:56 AM
Nice try with the insult, bro. I pitched at a fairly competitive D-1 level years ago in college. Next time I'll try to "dumb it down" for you.Originally Posted by Distilled Water
10-30-2006, 12:24 PM
I'm issuing warnings to both teams...
10-30-2006, 01:47 PM
I almost pissed my pants laughing when I read that. Way to work in the baseball lingo...how long did it take u to come up with it???Originally Posted by B5150
No bro I just asked because thats not a usual reaction from some one who plays, or played competitive baseball. I my self play competative JC, and have played with guys who are in the show now. I was caught by surprise no hard feelings. So just chillaxe my man....
11-10-2006, 12:18 AM
I'm chillaxed, my friend. Some of the guys I played with in college are getting a bit "long in the tooth" in their careers. That's when ya start to feel old. Kris Benson(Clemson), Todd Walker(LSU), and Marlan Anderson(South Alabama) are all starting to go grey.Originally Posted by Distilled Water
I'm just glad to see the Cards get one before Edmonds and Taguchi have to retire. I still retain the pride, though, that I was even able to play at that level. Sorry for seeming touchy about the subject.
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