low test levels clomid reboot
- 06-17-2008, 11:49 PM
low test levels clomid reboot
my test levels came back at 225 ngg/ml, Im curious i have nolva torem and clomid on hand. im considering running clomid at a low dose 25mg EOD for 40 days, while taking the clomid im also thinking of stacking it with a test booster such as drive and mass fx cycle back and fourth between the 2 im throwing the mass fx in there A because i have it and B) it has anti estrogen properties and my main goal is to raise my test levels and not for E2 levels to go high.
CAN IT BE DONE?? and once i come off with my body be able to carry on??? im also seeing a endo tomorrow i hope hes not a jerk because ive heard some stories
- 06-18-2008, 04:41 PM
When was your last AS cycle? What supplements did you just finish; and what are you currently using? Other than that i say try it and get your test levels checked while on the clomid and also some time afterwards(2-3 wks?)to see if your test levels will remain elevated.
- 06-19-2008, 12:16 AM
today was very weird for me i actually got wood in the morning of my day!!! it was the greatest feeling in the world unfortunatly the girl broke up with me a couple months ago GRRRRR. and all the women looked o so delicious. im taking drive,the basics (EFA, protein, creatine, etc etc) mass fx, asaxanthan, b complex, and drinking a tribulous shot daily
06-19-2008, 03:40 PM
day 1 out of 40
clomid 25mg AM
mass fx 2 caps 3 times daily AM/PM
drive 2 caps twice daily AM/PM
asaxanthin 1 daily AM
b-complex 100 2 daily AM/PM
pct support 1 daily AM
fish oil 9 caps 3 with every major meal
hopefully through consistent diet and supplement line up i can get my balls back up and big again and hopefully shine some light to my test levels. anyone else have faith??
also what can i expect as days continue with 25mg of clomid. hopefully minimal sides considering it is such a small dose, as i know the clomid will raise my estrogen what would be a good idea to counter act that??
06-19-2008, 03:42 PM
06-19-2008, 04:27 PM
06-19-2008, 04:33 PM
06-20-2008, 12:57 AM
25mg of clomid is not the bare minimum needed to get an effect...so calling it a low dose may not be appropriate.
I feel a positive effect from 10mg per day. But I know that it is truly 10mg & not underdosed like some research chems.
Side-effects at 25mgs per day will likely be confined to "increased emotional sensitivity". Just be aware of it and don't emotionally bond with someone during this time period...I have seen guys make poor choices in a mate while on Clomid which induced a rapid "falling in love bonding" which unfortunately persisted well beyond the clomid use...
The Divanil is responsible for the rapid increase in libido...it won't last. What is occuring is an increase in "free testosterone" on a temporary basis...if anything it will lower your total test a little IF you aren't using an AI or in your case a SERM. It will have no long-term impact on increasing total testosterone. In addition some aromatization to estrogen will occur.
Estrogen changes, in and of themseleves, more than anything else seem to be responsible for the functioning of my libido & even my performance. There really does seem to be something to getting your E2 into the optimum range.
Anyway I don't want to get into it and I leave it up to you to do your own research but since you asked me in a PM I'll tell you that there are other more extreme things that could help IF your Clomid therapy fails.
IGF-1 - increases FSH & GnRH-stimulated FSH release
Insulin - augments GnRH-stimulated LH synthesis & FSH release & reduces SHBG
My advice is to stick with what you are doing. That was a good post by Mass_69. There are some studies backing up what you are doing...
...hang in there...it takes time. The very worst year of my sexual life was the year after I had played around with the prohormones SD, PP & some Tren precursor ...these things seem to be capable of causing a lot more harm then plain old injectable test.
06-20-2008, 01:43 AM
I'm interested to see how this turns out. Always keen to learn more
06-20-2008, 01:31 PM
PCT is coming up soon:
Clomid: 100 days 1-5, 50mg days 6-15, 25mg days 16-30
Torem: 60mg days 1-5, 30mg days 6-15
fenugreek: 3 grams ED and dose accordingly
maca: 3 grams ED and dose accordingly (adjustments)
SAMe: 400mg enteric tab every morning
NADH: 10mg morning
Blueprint: 6 caps morning
6-OXO: Reverse titration in conjunction with the SERMs
few more maybe
Any issues with this protocol?
Freedom means nothing here.
06-20-2008, 03:57 PM
day 2 of 40
i felt very energetic today and felt like i was in a very positive mood for most of the day and right now that is all i can really ask for. Diet was pretty but im about to go make up for that. body weight is climbing and holding steady
06-20-2008, 04:00 PM
06-20-2008, 04:49 PM
06-20-2008, 11:36 PM
06-21-2008, 05:33 AM
Indole 3 is in ActivateXtreme. I have personally found this supp. to be good for libido but only seemed to get consistent results when used six days on, one day off. I am assuming this is because the body reacts to the rise in free test by lowering LH.
I am planning on stacking ActXtreme with 10mg Tamox. but have not decided yet on the best length of time to take the Tamox. for.
06-21-2008, 06:24 AM
Also IMHO the OTC 6-oxo and ATD are very effective. We don't always need to use a research chem. My favorite AI is SNS' ATD product...I just take 1 pill a day for 5 days and usually that is enough to bring my E back in line...
06-21-2008, 06:45 AM
06-21-2008, 08:32 PM
day 3 of 40
todays dose of clomid was 20mg cause i messed up slicing the pill. tomorrow will be 30. anyways i feel myself being able to retain muscle easier and muscles feeling fuller longer. more updates tomorrow also lifts slighty went up from last week dont know if that has anything to do with the clomid therapy
06-24-2008, 09:29 PM
day 4/5 of 40
feeling better testes seem to be reclaiming size and hanging lower i guess thats a good sign???
yesterday i did 50mg and today went back to 25 no reason i was just in a rush and didnt have time to chop the pill. so far so good gonna go for blood work at day 10
06-25-2008, 10:41 AM
Thanks for your advice with the fenugreek as well! It slipped my mind about the whole 'upwards titration scheme' for effectiveness.
Freedom means nothing here.
06-25-2008, 01:00 PM
I used this therapy a month or two back for a total of 6 weeks and it really does seem to work. Using only 10-25 mg EOD I regained libido, teste size, morning wood and overall better mood. I was sick and overly stressed all winter so I think that knocked my T levels down or I simply never recovered from an Epi cycle I did over a year ago.
My 2 cents...I seemed to notice a better "response"..ie morning wood and libido from using the lower doses (10-25 mg) ED initially, but phasing into EOD for the last 3 weeks really seemed to get me back to normal. Clomid has a half life of at least 5 days from what I understand.
06-25-2008, 01:13 PM
06-26-2008, 05:12 PM
All in all good things are happening. Plus you have THE bioman supporting your protocol ...I've learned a lot of cool things from him. My desert allergies are gone thanks to his Vit B-12 posts...
06-27-2008, 12:54 AM
so if im not mistaken it is day 8
i feel recovered more sudden than before,
i am able to get and mantain wood (i feel reborn lol),
the gym has been awesome,
slight increase in acne nothing some tea tree oil cant fix,
mood i find myself sympathizing with certain commercials lol.
ill be sure to post my updates and blood test results tomorrow! thanks for following my log guys appreciate all the good input!
06-27-2008, 12:55 AM
06-30-2008, 03:23 PM
getting a lot of wood latley, sorry for the delay of blood results i am going to have to go in for that someday next week. i am getting a little more aggressive acne nothing a tanning booth cant handle and gains seem to be coming more rapidly i have put on almost a full 5-7lbs LBM since begging the clomid therapy is this possible??, also definatly have been leaning out as i have added leviathan reloaded to my stack. ill be sure to keep bringing in the updates
07-01-2008, 01:37 PM
A question (directed mostly to Bio and DatB, but anyone is free to chime in), assuming one stayed on Clomid at 10 - 25 mg/ED, then - at some point - EOD, do you believe there would be a benefit from simultaneously running Tamox at a very low dose (like 10mg/ED)?
07-02-2008, 01:15 AM
There would be no point in taking both as Clomid and Tamox are similar. I would suggest taking either one or the other at a low dose.
07-02-2008, 01:14 PM
Andrologia. 1985 Jul-Aug;17(4):369-78.
Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on pituitary-gonadal function and sperm indices in oligozoospermic men.
Dony JM, Smals AG, Rolland R, Fauser BC, Thomas CM.
Administration of the antiestrogen tamoxifen for one month to 12 patients with idiopathic oligozoospermia significantly increased the mean basal testosterone (T) level and the responses of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) to constant luteinizing hormone releasing hormone (LHRH) infusion but did not significantly influence the mean oestradiol (E2) levels or the E2 over testosterone ratio.
Mean sperm concentration and total sperm output increased by about 70% after a mean treatment period of 5.5 +/- 0.4 months. No statistically significant difference was found between the two subgroups of patients treated with either the lower (5 or 10 mg once daily) or higher dose of tamoxifen (10 mg twice daily) with respect to basal or LHRH stimulated gonadotropin and testosterone response or the E2/T ratio and the effect on sperm density and total sperm output. In both subgroups the sperm motility and morphology remained unchanged.
In conclusion higher doses of tamoxifen in this study prove not to be superior to lower doses in improving mean sperm density and total sperm output. The relative small percentage of patients achieving normalisation of only these sperm parameters pleads for further search for more effective selection of patients and other more effective treatment modalities in patients with idiopathic oligozoospermia.
07-02-2008, 01:26 PM
07-03-2008, 07:01 PM
ok so i have just got over a really nasty cold, well not fully but am on my way. do you think clomid could have a hand in lowering m estrogen and allowing me to get sick?? maybe i should lower the dose to 10mg?
07-03-2008, 07:17 PM
Clomid doesnt lower estrogen levels it just blocks receptors from binding to estrogen by binding to the estrogen receptor in place of estrogen. I dunno if it had an affect on the cold or not....I dont get sick when i take clomid...maybe you just caught a bug or bad allergies. Happens to everybody every once in a while. Good luck -things seem to be going well. Very interesting.
07-03-2008, 09:18 PM
I'll be joining the low dose Clomid ranks w/i a day or so. I ordered some 1ml measured medicine droppers and await delivery. I'll be using a combination of pills and liquid.
07-08-2008, 07:39 PM
Are there any studies showing the affect of low dose Clomid stacked with with low dose Proviron? If resetting HPTA is the goal, with the hidden agenda of increasing libido, would there be a benefit to a Clomid/Proviron stack?
07-08-2008, 08:41 PM
07-09-2008, 01:32 PM
07-09-2008, 04:07 PM
Well the good news, at least for myself, is that I don't think one has to stay on this therapy all the time. I have been off of it for one month and I still feel great mood, libido and just oily faced horndog-wise.
Granted, I am only doing this by "feel" without bloodwork, but so far, so good. I always have the option of jumping back into it if I start to feel less, ahem, manly. I'm getting lots of sun/vitamin D every day and I know from experience that that helps enormously. We will see what transpires this winter.
As far as adding more to the therapy..it depends on if you feel you are recovered or not. In my case, the clomid did wonders so I was loathe to modify it in any way.
07-09-2008, 04:14 PM
07-10-2008, 04:13 AM
Here is an interesting study:
Title: Comparative effects of GH, IGF-I and insulin on serum sex hormone binding globulin.
Author: Gafny, M : Silbergeld, A : Klinger, B : Wasserman, M : Laron, Z
Citation: Clin-Endocrinol-(Oxf). 1994 Aug; 41(2): 169-75
OBJECTIVE: The serum level of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) changes inversely with that of both insulin and insulin-like growth factor (IGF-I), during several nutritional conditions, as well as in response to GH treatment. However, with exogenous IGF-I administration, endogenous IGF-I increases, while insulin decreases. In order to study the separate roles of these hormones in controlling SHBG metabolism, we compared SHBG levels in patients treated with IGF-I and GH.
DESIGN AND PATIENTS: Serum levels of IGF-I, insulin and SHBG were measured before and during the treatment of patients with IGF-I or GH. Blood samples were drawn in the fasting state, prior to and during therapy, 24 hours after drug administration. Sixteen children and adults with Laron syndrome (LS) received daily s.c. injections of IGF-I (120-150 micrograms/kg) for up to 5 months. Three adults with isolated GH deficiency (IGHD) received daily s.c. injections of GH (0.03-0.06 U/kg) for 16 months. Two groups of nine prepubertal children with constitutional short stature (CSS) received GH (0.1 U/kg/day) for 3 months.
MEASUREMENTS: Serum levels of insulin and acid extractable IGF-I were determined by RIA, and that of SHBG by IRMA.
RESULTS: Basal insulin and SHBG levels were within normal range in the LS, IGHD and CSS patients. IGF-I levels were low in LS and IGHD patients, and normal in the CSS children. The mean peak response to chronic therapy was as follows: in LS patients, IGF-I administration decreased insulin levels to 62%, and increased SHBG levels by 64% above basal values. Chronic GH therapy in IGHD caused a marked rise in both IGF-I levels (473%), and insulin levels (96%), and a gradual decline of SHBG to 75% of the basal concentration. In GH treated CSS patients, serum IGF-I peaked at 80% and insulin levels at 102% above the respective basal levels, while SHBG decreased to 83% after 5 days of treatment.
CONCLUSION: The results obtained in Laron syndrome, isolated GH deficiency and constitutional short stature patients treated with IGF-I or GH, indicate that serum insulin had consistently an inverse relation with the levels of circulating SHBG. No relation was found between IGF-I and SHBG levels.
07-17-2008, 08:17 PM
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