time line for TRT results
05-21-2008 12:48 PM
time line for TRT results
So far after approximately 6 weeks on TRT, the only things I can see any improvement on is my recovery when working out ( I am not as sore the next day), and a slight improvement in my libido. If anything I have gotten a little fatter since I started.
Can I expect any lowering of bodyfat to start occurring? If so , how long might it take? I am keeping my diet and lifting pretty consistent.
I had 3 shots of cypionate, 125mg, 2 weeks apart, and then, starting a week ago, switched onto daily dosage of compounded cream of 30mg of T, 5mg of progesterone.
05-21-2008 12:54 PM
125mg 2 weeks apart is pretty terrible, IMO.
05-21-2008 01:01 PM
Yes, I think the daily cream is going to be a lot better, as long as my skin absorbs it well. Like I said, I have not had any "aha, it's working" moments yet.
What is an AI?
05-22-2008 11:38 AM
Aromatase Inhibitor which prevents the conversion of testosterone to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme. You don't want high estrogen and with any form of TRT theirs a chance some of the testosterone you inject will increase your estrogen levels to unwanted levels. That's why using an AI like arimidex is a must to keep your testosterone as testosterone in the body.
Symptoms of high estrogen: weight gain, migraines, fluid retention, high blood pressure, fatigue, aging skin, thinning hair. And high estrogen will trump high testosterone levels.
I have to agree 125mg every two weeks is pretty terrible, your blood levels will be up and down and your not going to feel too great. You should be on 100-150mg per week, some doctors even prescribe 200mg a week. Also i wouldn't use creams as they can make you infertile and don't work as well. Your doctor doesn't seem to know what he's doing.
05-22-2008 04:27 PM
huh? do you mean progesterone+T creams, or T creams? the latter is virtually identical to shots...
Originally Posted by MetalMX
05-22-2008 05:10 PM
Yes the progesterone+T ones sorry
05-22-2008 05:20 PM
My estradiol was at the lower end of the range, why do AI's if there is not a problem?
The shots were in the past (at least for now). I will give the cream a chance and see what happens. To be perfectly honest, I have not noticed much difference with shots or cream. Even the first few days after the shots, I really had no "aha, it's working" moments.
I am beginning to think the libido problem was all in my head, and the inability to lose body fat is just tough luck! lol
05-22-2008 05:54 PM
I have been on TRT for 6 months now and the results are nothing short of amazing! I started at 225lbs with a 38inch waist, I am now 205lbs with a 34inch waist and my muscles are bigger and more defined than ever. I am stronger now than before and feel loke I am in my 20's again, not to mention what it has done for my sex life. I am on 200mg Test E every 7-10 days and 1/2 MG of Armidex 3x weekly.
05-22-2008 06:44 PM
Congrats dude! I hope I have some results too, but so far, not much is happening. I am actually at the same or higher weight than when I started, but only a pound or two.
The main improvement, like I said before, is less soreness the day after lifting.
05-22-2008 06:54 PM
Have you got any recent blood work? Test, Estradiol...
Your T levels probably aren't where they need to be that's why you aren't getting the benefits.
05-22-2008 06:58 PM
Testosterone was a separate test, 296
Here were the other things I had tested prior to starting on TRT, copied from my other thread:
Pregnenolone: <10 (<20-100)
Progesterone: .7 (.3-1.2)
DHEA: 340 (107-745). He said he prefers to get people to 600 or more
Cortisol: 15.8 (4-22)
Estradiol, free: 1.0 (.8-3.5)
Estradiol, serum: 21 (0-53)
PSA: 1.7 (0-4.0). Screened me to make sure doing testosterone was ok
SHBG: 26 (20-60)
IGF-1: 261 (94-252). One good result!!!!
Magnesium: 4.3 (4.2-6.8). He wants this higher
Selenium: 380 (42-1400). He also wants this higher
Zinc: 980 (1000-2000). Says this needs to really be up, especially in light of the fact my prostate is enlarged already
Vit D: 34.1 (32-100). Again, he will be treating me for this being at low end
Vitamin C: .2 (.4-2.0). I take 4 g a day, and still am way low. He is giving it to me in a different form, buffered, and also some that is fat soluble.
Vitamin B1 and B12 were both high, which he said was fine.
Insulin: 3.2 (0-29). He said this was fine.
I am taking pregnenolone, DHEA, and other supps on a daily basis, and am having a series of IV's and shots of Vit D to get my mineral levels higher.
05-22-2008 07:07 PM
Forgot to add, levels to be rechecked on everything in another 2-3 months
05-23-2008 12:27 PM
SHBG: 26 (20-60)
Originally Posted by namtrag
Estradiol, serum: 21 (0-53)
Your e2 test is wrong, next time do ultrasensitive.
Your testosterone is low, E2 is low.
Stop anything that can be considered AI.
Try test injection 200mg/ml
EOD every other day, each shot 25units
on days in between 500iu hcg
Next time check your DHT.
Are you secondary or primary.
If you are secondary, you may get better treatment with higher doses of HCG only. Have to try to see if it would work.
Yes you are low on minerals.
Probably low digestive juices, is a good start to look.
zinc tally and Betaine HCL
I use 6 tablets with each meal
Country Life Betaine Hydrochloride with Pepsin -- 600 mg - 250 Tablets
Country Life Betaine Hydrochloride with Pepsin -- 600 mg - 250 Tablets - Vitacost
Also use good enzyme and probiotics.
Also good NutrEval test from Genova Diagnostics.
Would give you real good once over, plus would tell you what you need to make corrective action, name & daily dose.
05-23-2008 01:04 PM
I am getting IV's of zinc and magnesium a few times, then switching to oral. I will talk with doc about this next time.
I am still waiting for the DHT result.
05-24-2008 12:55 AM
dude you started off with what would be about 60mg per week 'total', but you got that dose with only one shot every 2 weeks of 125mg.
THATS why it didn't work. That amount bi-weekly will not do it. Now he's got you on that cream- which is also weak, and usually gives a guy a level of around 4-600 if it absorbs properly (at least that's what the research hopes it will do) and in my opinion that is still too low to "Feel" it. I mean look at it this way: Lots of guys at 400 are almost ready to GET ON HRT because of that level, not be happy to REACH 400.
This is just my opinion, but for replacement of testosterone you need to get your levels above 800. Don't flame me- this is JMO, and after reading 1,000 threads from other men, THESE ARE THE MEN WHO ARE HAPPY.
to get there you need 150-200mg per week. THEN you will "feel" like you were hoping to feel. again: if there's guys out there reading this who are happy at 500 with their cream, God bless ya! lol
hope that helps.
ps> obviously this doc who is treating you is not gonna give you 200 per week- so you probably would have to get another doctor if you want to do this right.
05-24-2008 08:25 AM
In defense of T-Cream
Most docs, even the best like Dr. John and my doc (Shippen) start TRT patients out on cream first, then move on to injects if necessary. You're just 6 weeks into it. When I was only 6 weeks into it I hadn't even started T yet. I was doing the Clomid test and, later, the HCG protocol to see what my own body could produce.
Originally Posted by tawney
I then started a protocol of T-Cream and HCG. Because I started out with lower DHT, the increase of DHT I got from T-Cream was great for libido (as Dr. John says "DHT is the male hormone"). You don't get as big a pop in DHT on injects. So it's important you know your DHT levels - I didn't see this on your test. Always track this, especially when doing cream.
After a month or two of tweaking I'm now pushing 700-800 TT on T-Cream and HCG but I don't get too caught up on TT. It's the Free T you want to focus on. Shippen uses a chart that calculates Free T by plotting the intersection of TT and SHBG. (JanSz has an online version somewhere). Because Shippen cut my SHBG in half with low dose Danazol, my Free T is 4-5x higher than when I started and I feel great. Took 5 months.
BTW, I don't use an AI either as my E has never really budged from 20-22. But I do use DIMM every day.
Looking at what you posted I would have 2 concerns:
1.) I don't like to comment on other people's doses but your dose of 30mg ED seems WAY too low if you are talking compounded cream. I started at 140mg and am now at 180mg. Are you sure you are at 30mg??
2.) Will your doc consider "maintenance" HCG after the TRT has shut down your natural production??
05-24-2008 12:11 PM
Chart here, post #41
Originally Posted by OldGator
Your low E2.
supposedly when taking DHEA,
in men it converts to estrogens
im women it converts to testosterone
try it, you may like it.
05-24-2008 12:23 PM
Where is your free test level?
Originally Posted by OldGator
05-24-2008 01:49 PM
Namtrag, I would really look into the estrogen issue. It was not until I added Armidex that I really started to FEEL good. I felt good at first when I started the shots as my Test levels increased but then my Estrogen went too high and I started feeling poorly again, once I added Armidex .50mg EOD that I got my E2 under control and started FEELING and LOOKIN great! AI is very important with TRT especially when you have to take higher doses of Test to reach the upper levels of the normal range. It is with the addition of an AI that you will start to feel fantastic and get all of the benifits of your treatment like loosing body fat and increasing lean muscle mass. Always go by your blood work, that and how you feel almost always go hand in hand. GOOD LUCK.
05-24-2008 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf
Started at 39 pg/ml.
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