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    cost of HCG treatment


    What will be the cost of HCG treatment, since it is nto covered by insurance.How long do we need to take HCG treatment if we are secondary? In my are nobody is givig HCG treatment unless we show that we have low sperm count in semen analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkblue1 View Post
    What will be the cost of HCG treatment, since it is nto covered by insurance.How long do we need to take HCG treatment if we are secondary? In my are nobody is givig HCG treatment unless we show that we have low sperm count in semen analysis.
    The cost will depend on how many IUs are prescribed weekly. You can get a prescription for 10,000 IUs of Novarel from Walgreens for under $58. I use 3000 IUs per week so my cost is roughly $17 per week or $74/month.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    The cost will depend on how many IUs are prescribed weekly. You can get a prescription for 10,000 IUs of Novarel from Walgreens for under $58. I use 3000 IUs per week so my cost is roughly $17 per week or $74/month.

    Is Novarel same as HCG? is novarel injection or cream ?

    How can I find who (which doc/endo) prescribes HCG?
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkblue1 View Post
    Is Novarel same as HCG? is novarel injection or cream ?

    How can I find who (which doc/endo) prescribes HCG?
    Novarel is a brand of HCG. It's possible that they sell a generic for less. I use a doctor who specializes in age management for my prescription. Many use urologists who treat testosterone deficiencies. Some urolgists may prefer testosterone. You need to find one that will work with you. I use my urologist for an Arimidex prescription because it is covered under my insurance. He would probably prescribe HCG if I asked him to.

    You're going to need a doctor who will prescribe follow up blood tests and Arimidex if there is any E2 feedback.
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    I have low LH level . So I may need to go for HCG or Clomid.But my insurance won't cover it.Thats why I am looking for cost of treatment if insurance is not covering it
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Novarel is a brand of HCG. It's possible that they sell a generic for less.
    Colkurtz,

    Do you ever use Abraxis or other brands? If so, just curious if you notice any difference in effectiveness.

    Mac
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    I pay roughly $50 per month for HCG.
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkblue1 View Post
    I have low LH level . So I may need to go for HCG or Clomid.But my insurance won't cover it.Thats why I am looking for cost of treatment if insurance is not covering it
    HCG is the way to go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacDonnell View Post
    Colkurtz,

    Do you ever use Abraxis or other brands? If so, just curious if you notice any difference in effectiveness.

    Mac
    I've used generic and it worked as well as Novarel. I suppose as long as it's natural HCG there should be no difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjsiwelhj View Post
    I pay roughly $50 per month for HCG.
    Is that without insurance? Which insurance companies cover hcg?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjsiwelhj View Post
    I pay roughly $50 per month for HCG.

    How much do you use, and what have your results been?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjsiwelhj View Post
    I pay roughly $50 per month for HCG.
    I need to take only about 480IU per month ( 30IU every other day)

    Do I need to still buy the 10,000IU val and throw away the rest of it after a month? Will I be able to buy in smaller doses?
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkblue1 View Post
    What will be the cost of HCG treatment, since it is nto covered by insurance.
    For me, the cost of HCG to raise test (which worked) was a hell of a lot less than all the supps I was buying pre-HCG to raise test (which didn't work).

    So I got the result I wanted and saved alot of $$$ besides.

    So make sure you also measure that which you will no longer have to buy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    For me, the cost of HCG to raise test (which worked) was a hell of a lot less than all the supps I was buying pre-HCG to raise test (which didn't work).

    So I got the result I wanted and saved alot of $$$ besides.

    So make sure you also measure that which you will no longer have to buy!
    So how much you paid for HCG per month?
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkblue1 View Post
    So how much you paid for HCG per month?
    About $50.
    Old supps used to be around $200.
    Savings for me of $150. And better result!
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    About $50.
    Old supps used to be around $200.
    Savings for me of $150. And better result!
    Is HCG that cheap without insurance. My endo said HCG treatment is expensive.
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    New to this board so, hi everyone.

    Dr. John is a DO and has a clinical practice specializing in male HRT. Unless things have changed, Nick Delgado is a PhD, not a medical doctor and cannot prescribe medication.

    My Doc. is a DO and like Dr. John, a member of the Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine. (A4M)

    As I recall, Dr. John has found that supplemental testosterone produces more favorable results than HCG alone as far as how his patients feel, even though both may produce the same T level when measured by labs. He prefers HCG as an adjunct to testosterone.

    One can obtain good T #’s with Clomid alone but, its side effects are not acceptable.

    I use 250IU of HCG 2 days per week prior to my Test injection. HCG acts as an analog of LH and signals the testes to produce testosterone. It will not increase endogenous production of LH.

    My insurance covers HCG. A vial of Novarel costs me about $10. Oddly, Abraxis costs $12.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snipe View Post
    New to this board so, hi everyone.

    Dr. John is a DO and has a clinical practice specializing in male HRT. Unless things have changed, Nick Delgado is a PhD, not a medical doctor and cannot prescribe medication.

    My Doc. is a DO and like Dr. John, a member of the Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine. (A4M)

    As I recall, Dr. John has found that supplemental testosterone produces more favorable results than HCG alone as far as how his patients feel, even though both may produce the same T level when measured by labs. He prefers HCG as an adjunct to testosterone.

    One can obtain good T #ís with Clomid alone but, its side effects are not acceptable.

    I use 250IU of HCG 2 days per week prior to my Test injection. HCG acts as and analog of LH and signals the testes to produce testosterone. It will not increase endogenous production of LH.

    My insurance covers HCG. A vial of Novarel costs me about $10. Oddly, Abraxis costs $12.
    Not everyone responds to HCG in the same way. I've done cream, injections and HCG. For me the feeling of HCG is preferable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Not everyone responds to HCG in the same way. I've done cream, injections and HCG. For me the feeling of HCG is preferable.
    You are the only one that I know of who uses HCG as a sole means of raising testosterone.

    Being secondary you are in position to benefit from this approach.

    For reason that I am not able to explain, everybody else (if they are lucky) are offered testosterone and sometimes little bit of HCG as an after-thought, regardeles, primary or secondary.

    Possibly this type of TRT have its roots in steroids use and follows similar practice, except that it replaces steroids with bio-identical testosterone and phisiological levels of it.

    Yours, Cenegenics doctor aproaches problem as if you were attempting to father a child (minus HMG).

    He probably also uses testosterone if his patient is primary.
    .
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    You are the only one that I know of who uses HCG as a sole means of raising testosterone.

    Being secondary you are in position to benefit from this approach.

    For reason that I am not able to explain, everybody else (if they are lucky) are offered testosterone and sometimes little bit of HCG as an after-thought, regardeles, primary or secondary.

    Possibly this type of TRT have its roots in steroids use and follows similar practice, except that it replaces steroids with bio-identical testosterone and phisiological levels of it.

    Yours, Cenegenics doctor aproaches problem as if you were attempting to father a child (minus HMG).

    He probably also uses testosterone if his patient is primary.

    .
    He does prescribe testosterone, and HCG for primary patients; my father is one of them. He also has many secondary patients like me who do well on HCG alone. There is no standardized dose - some use more than others. If I ever need exogenous testosterone I will gladly take it. I did a couple of cycles years ago (Test/Deca) so I'm familiar with that "on feeling." TRT gives you some of that to a lesser extent and it sure beats that off feeling. When HCG works it's a very different. You don't feel a constant level that eventually tapers off. It's hard to describe. It's like being 21 again with a clear mind, full sack, and lots of energy.

    When I was taking exogenous I preferred injections to transdermal. That will be my method if I ever need to supplement. I would probably try subq delivery using smaller amounts more frequently.
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    You are the only one that I know of who uses HCG as a sole means of raising testosterone.

    Being secondary you are in position to benefit from this approach.

    For reason that I am not able to explain, everybody else (if they are lucky) are offered testosterone and sometimes little bit of HCG as an after-thought, regardeles, primary or secondary.

    Possibly this type of TRT have its roots in steroids use and follows similar practice, except that it replaces steroids with bio-identical testosterone and phisiological levels of it.

    Yours, Cenegenics doctor aproaches problem as if you were attempting to father a child (minus HMG).

    He probably also uses testosterone if his patient is primary.
    .
    .
    Jan, perhaps you still don't "know" me, but I have been posting about my grand hCG mono successes for some time now. I feel WAY better than on T Cyp + hCG. I got my blood drawn today. I'm anxious to see the results in a few weeks. I'm guessing my bioavailable and free levels are pretty solid, based on my gains at the gym. We shall see. As long as they are at the 50% level, I will stick with my program.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    Jan, perhaps you still don't "know" me, but I have been posting about my grand hCG mono successes for some time now. I feel WAY better than on T Cyp + hCG. I got my blood drawn today. I'm anxious to see the results in a few weeks. I'm guessing my bioavailable and free levels are pretty solid, based on my gains at the gym. We shall see. As long as they are at the 50% level, I will stick with my program.
    I've gained 15 pounds of muscle since I got back on the treatment in December. I think that's pretty good for my age. I'm glad to see it's working for you too.

    Good luck!
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    Thank you colkurtz_spf
    Thank you jinxie

    Just two of you, out of hundrets posting, hopefully someone else, on HCG alone, will chime in.

    Yes, I feel there is a pressure around here for testosterone use when facing hypogonadism.

    I bet 90% guys under 30 and 80% under 40 are secondaries.

    Majory should be using HCG.

    Next time you guys are talking to your doctors,
    please ask for those proportions, mine are just preliminary guesses.
    .
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Not everyone responds to HCG in the same way. I've done cream, injections and HCG. For me the feeling of HCG is preferable.


    Absolutely. Dr. John (aka SWALE, when he was posting on T-Nation and SBI) always emphasized that EVERY BODY responds differently. He mentioned that he had a couple of patients on HCG alone and doing fine. Overall, he prefers the combo.

    PS.

    After reading my first post, I realize that I was stating some things that are obvious to you vets here. Didn't mean to sound preachy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snipe View Post
    Absolutely. Dr. John (aka SWALE, when he was posting on T-Nation and SBI) always emphasized that EVERY BODY responds differently. He mentioned that he had a couple of patients on HCG alone and doing fine. Overall, he prefers the combo.

    PS.

    After reading my first post, I realize that I was stating some things that are obvious to you vets here. Didn't mean to sound preachy.
    You didn't sound preachy. Not everyone is familiar with Dr. john. Thanks for clarifying his position on HCG.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snipe View Post
    Absolutely. Dr. John (aka SWALE, when he was posting on T-Nation and SBI) always emphasized that EVERY BODY responds differently. He mentioned that he had a couple of patients on HCG alone and doing fine. Overall, he prefers the combo.

    PS.

    After reading my first post, I realize that I was stating some things that are obvious to you vets here. Didn't mean to sound preachy.
    I joined Meso board 04-19-2006
    shortly latter this board and latter dr John's board.

    I have newer heard dr John saying that HCG alone may work.

    Must be old story.


    Expression:
    "EVERY BODY responds differently",
    is a standard disclaimer when unwilling or unable to provide more details.

    -------------------
    You can see snippets of dr John aka SWALE then dr John , writtings:

    My Cenegenics Experience

    "Probably 250 is even better."
    That is 1750iu/week max

    The doses for TRT using HCG only are 2000iu - 6000iu (I think).
    -----------------------

    This is new field, many doctors are trying different approaches.

    From my POV, there is a standard protocol used when men is working on his fertility.

    Why not hone this approach first?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    Jan, perhaps you still don't "know" me, but I have been posting about my grand hCG mono successes for some time now. I feel WAY better than on T Cyp + hCG. I got my blood drawn today. I'm anxious to see the results in a few weeks. I'm guessing my bioavailable and free levels are pretty solid, based on my gains at the gym. We shall see. As long as they are at the 50% level, I will stick with my program.
    Jinxie
    I just found your recent post, #53
    04-12-2008, 11:49 PM
    My Cenegenics Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    I think I am going to talk with my doc about doing 500-600 IUs of hCG EOD, and lose the T Cyp. It will be cheaper, easier and less meds. Colkurtz, do you have any suggestion as to whether I should taper off the T Cyp? I'm wondering if my T levels will remain fairly stable if I stop the T and triple my hCG level. I would imagine that my TT would remain in the range of 1,000. Right now, that is about the trough. Thanks in advance for any thoughts/advice.

    When have you moved to HCG alone TRT?

    How are you doing?
    Describe your potocol.
    Possibly start dedicated thread.

    Thanx

    I think the items to watch for are the usual
    TT, SHBG, Albumin, E2 and DHT

    I addition, I think, there is a possibility of
    high E2 increases ie; larger doses of Arimidex to control it, (larger that on T shots)
    and possibility of declinig effectiveness, if testis start to desensetize to hcg.

    .
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Thank you colkurtz_spf
    Thank you jinxie

    Just two of you, out of hundrets posting, hopefully someone else, on HCG alone, will chime in.

    Yes, I feel there is a pressure around here for testosterone use when facing hypogonadism.

    I bet 90% guys under 30 and 80% under 40 are secondaries.

    Majory should be using HCG.

    Next time you guys are talking to your doctors,
    please ask for those proportions, mine are just preliminary guesses.
    .
    .
    Jan,

    First of all, I dont think there are that many doctors routinely prescribing hCG as an adjunct or exclusively for hypogonadism. My current doctor doesn't. I think part of the explanation is the prescribing T is easier -- it will increase your T levels, and the probability of needing to take an AI is less likely.

    Second, most of the people on forums have either seen Dr. Crisler, or their care has been influenced by his protocol (for instance, Dr. Mariano follows Dr. Crisler's lead). As you know, Dr. Crisler has suggested that his patients dont seem to get the same wellbeing from hCG monotherapy. When Dr. Mariano related that to me, I went for the combo therapy. And I think most on the forums do the same.

    So, I think these two things combined has contributed to what you are observing on the boards. And I dont expect it to change anytime soon. I suspect those patients that see fertility urologists are more likely to be prescribed hCG monotherapy. Those interested in this approach likely will need to advocate for themselves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Thank you colkurtz_spf
    Thank you jinxie

    Just two of you, out of hundrets posting, hopefully someone else, on HCG alone, will chime in.

    Yes, I feel there is a pressure around here for testosterone use when facing hypogonadism.

    I bet 90% guys under 30 and 80% under 40 are secondaries.

    Majory should be using HCG.

    Next time you guys are talking to your doctors,
    please ask for those proportions, mine are just preliminary guesses.
    .
    .
    I've also been solely on HCG. I was doing 200iu EOD. I felt like it worked fairly well (especially first couple of wks). Protocol lasted about 5 wks.

    Apparently this shot my E2 way up. Which might make sense. The first couple of wks had better effect. Then as E2 rose, it diminished (theory).

    Doc prescribed adex. But I'm not sure if want to stay with HCG. Or decrease/increase dosage. I've thought about 100iu every day. And even something like 500 iu 2/wk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thenxtgrt1 View Post
    I've also been solely on HCG. I was doing 200iu EOD. I felt like it worked fairly well (especially first couple of wks). Protocol lasted about 5 wks.

    Apparently this shot my E2 way up. Which might make sense. The first couple of wks had better effect. Then as E2 rose, it diminished (theory).
    Doc prescribed adex. But I'm not sure if want to stay with HCG. Or decrease/increase dosage. I've thought about 100iu every day. And even something like 500 iu 2/wk.
    Have you tested your E2,
    or all this is just a guess?

    200iu EOD that is very small dose.
    700iu/week.

    Look at my post #62
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-...oodtest-3.html

    It is based on study:
    Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression -- Coviello et al. 90 (5): 2595 -- Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism

    that everybody is watching when talking about HCG.

    Healthy testis require 306iu EOD to equal normal
    Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men

    that is 1071iu/week

    Your testis are not as good, and you took less HCG,
    why are you expecting good results?

    You are making unsupported guess of what happened to your E2.

    Going by reports of

    colkurtz_spf
    and
    Phil

    you need 2000 iu/week dose (Phil) to start talking about supporting your testis with HCG
    actually more like 3000 or more (colkurtz_spf).

    10000iu/week is not out of the question when on fertility program.
    .
    .
    It is a true that HCG alone is not researched too well,
    because everybody is using testosterone supplementation.

    But just wach, when sometimes there is a question about fertility.

    There is no fertility, period, for primary hypogonadism.

    I doubt that there is such a high %%% of primary guys around here.

    If they can be helped during time that they want to conceive,
    why do it only for this sporadic event.

    By definition, fertile men is tunned better than alternative.
    .
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Have you tested your E2,
    or all this is just a guess?

    200iu EOD that is very small dose.
    700iu/week.

    Look at my post #62
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-...oodtest-3.html

    It is based on study:
    Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression -- Coviello et al. 90 (5): 2595 -- Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism

    that everybody is watching when talking about HCG.

    Healthy testis require 306iu EOD to equal normal
    Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men

    that is 1071iu/week

    Your testis are not as good, and you took less HCG,
    why are you expecting good results?

    You are making unsupported guess of what happened to your E2.

    Going by reports of

    colkurtz_spf
    and
    Phil

    you need 2000 iu/week dose (Phil) to start talking about supporting your testis with HCG
    actually more like 3000 or more (colkurtz_spf).

    10000iu/week is not out of the question when on fertility program.
    .
    .
    It is a true that HCG alone is not researched too well,
    because everybody is using testosterone supplementation.

    But just wach, when sometimes there is a question about fertility.

    There is no fertility, period, for primary hypogonadism.

    I doubt that there is such a high %%% of primary guys around here.

    If they can be helped during time that they want to conceive,
    why do it only for this sporadic event.

    By definition, fertile men is tunned better than alternative.
    .
    .
    Let me first say that I am secondary. Doc instructed me to take 200 iu EOD. E2 level has been substantiated by labwork. It came back at 27 with upper range being around 22. Don't have hard copy of lab work yet. And free test was extremely low, which I presume to be caused by estrogen.

    This was my first test with dr. Before I began HCG, I had thought E2 was a problem. Maybe some kind of way body became susceptive to higher E2 levels. So it's possible that E2 was already higher before HCG. In my opinion, HCG even in smaller amount, raised it more.

    I will check out link you posted as soon as I have a chance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thenxtgrt1 View Post
    Let me first say that I am secondary. Doc instructed me to take 200 iu EOD. E2 level has been substantiated by labwork. It came back at 27 with upper range being around 22. Don't have hard copy of lab work yet. And free test was extremely low, which I presume to be caused by estrogen.

    This was my first test with dr. Before I began HCG, I had thought E2 was a problem. Maybe some kind of way body became susceptive to higher E2 levels. So it's possible that E2 was already higher before HCG. In my opinion, HCG even in smaller amount, raised it more.

    I will check out link you posted as soon as I have a chance.
    It is a very good news that you are secondary.
    You have a choice, now is mater of patience in experimenting.



    Make sure that your E2 test was ultrasensitive.
    Upper range 22 for E2 sounds rather suspect.
    Recheck the range.

    The best E2 test (well, approved by dr John) is from Quest Diagnostics.
    To get it, script have to specify all numbers and letters, otherwise you will get something else:

    Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS (30289X)

    That test have a range

    Estradiol (Males (Adult): < or = 29 pg/mL)

    That is why I suspect that your 27 may be close to ideal value.

    Do not be so sure that HCG is increasing E2.
    At least not at the very small doses that you are taking.

    I am taking 500iu EOD
    and
    25.5 units EOD, of 200mg/ml DepoT (178.5mg/week)

    and I do not take any AI since Mar30/08
    Had to stop because my E2 went down too low, (58 days without AI).
    .
    I drew blood 5 days ago.|
    I am interested in my readings because I feel real good.
    Cornered my wife four times over the weekend, Not bad for 68yo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    It is a very good news that you are secondary.
    You have a choice, now is mater of patience in experimenting.



    Make sure that your E2 test was ultrasensitive.
    Upper range 22 for E2 sounds rather suspect.
    Recheck the range.

    The best E2 test (well, approved by dr John) is from Quest Diagnostics.
    To get it, script have to specify all numbers and letters, otherwise you will get something else:

    Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS (30289X)

    That test have a range

    Estradiol (Males (Adult): < or = 29 pg/mL)

    That is why I suspect that your 27 may be close to ideal value.

    Do not be so sure that HCG is increasing E2.
    At least not at the very small doses that you are taking.

    I am taking 500iu EOD
    and
    25.5 units EOD, of 200mg/ml DepoT (178.5mg/week)

    and I do not take any AI since Mar30/08
    Had to stop because my E2 went down too low, (58 days without AI).
    .
    I drew blood 5 days ago.|
    I am interested in my readings because I feel real good.
    Cornered my wife four times over the weekend, Not bad for 68yo.


    JanSz...E2 test was the urine analysis that Dr John uses. It was the first thing he pointed out to me regarding the labwork. I'll take a closer look at it once I have the results.

    I do find it strange that HCG was good in the beginning and then tailed off after about 2 wks. I've kind of felt this way when using OTC supps before as well. Starts out with a bang and then levels off. That's why I theorize my body may be sensitive to aromitizing test into estrogen. Don't know why this would be the case..

    What are symptoms of high E2?

    So JanSz you're now taking 500 iu EOD. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were taking 306 iu EOD? Why the increase in dosage?

    And when you're E2 went to low, how did you feel?

    Hey man...4 times in one weekend is awesome. You're about 40 years older and out-performing me right now LoL

    Hopefully I'll get it back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thenxtgrt1 View Post
    JanSz...E2 test was the urine analysis that Dr John uses. It was the first thing he pointed out to me regarding the labwork. I'll take a closer look at it once I have the results.

    I do find it strange that HCG was good in the beginning and then tailed off after about 2 wks. I've kind of felt this way when using OTC supps before as well. Starts out with a bang and then levels off. That's why I theorize my body may be sensitive to aromitizing test into estrogen. Don't know why this would be the case.

    What are symptoms of high E2?

    So JanSz you're now taking 500 iu EOD. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were taking 306 iu EOD? Why the increase in dosage?

    And when you're E2 went to low, how did you feel?

    Hey man...4 times in one weekend is awesome. You're about 40 years older and out-performing me right now LoL

    Hopefully I'll get it back.
    First, you have to follow what you doc is telling you to do.
    With some doctors you do not have any flexibility at all, or they will let you go.
    Keep that in mind.


    306iu EOD is a replacement dose for healty testicles.
    I calculated that number in my post #62
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-...ml#post1372335

    Aging or sick testicles may require more, possibly much more than 306iu.

    306iu EOD = 306*7/2=1071iu/week(average)
    that is over twice the amount of the usual around here 250iu before once weekly T shot.


    I was taking 380iu EOD, now 500iu EOD.
    The HCG that I use is easy divisible to 500iu
    so with this discussion going, rather than wasting good HCG I increased my shots to 500iu EOD.

    I can feel additional boost in size and firmness of my testicles.

    When I started having problems with my erection (end of January), I immediately assumed high E2.
    According to more HCG more E2 story.
    Blood test 3/30/08, my e2 was low. Stopped Anastrozole.
    Within 2 weeks started feeling better plus better sex.
    This 4x over the Memorial weekend was ended on high note.
    I ended rock hard. Had to end, could not reach orgasm.
    Unfortunately my wife is not easy on me.
    That was holiday, she is back to her "normal" (cold fish) self.
    And I can't afford trips to Atlantic City, hotel, concert, every weekend to warm her up.
    ---------------------------------
    About your E2 urine test.

    Urine tests are done for two reasons (my understanding).

    One,
    to track estrogen fractions, adjust them, hopefully to avoid cancer.

    Second,
    to compare blood vs urine readings and study metabolism in some more chalenging cases.

    For "normal" TRT only blood tests are done (around here).

    In that case,
    per dr John you would do Quest Diagnostic test:
    Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS (30289X)

    I add also this one:
    Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)

    This is long way od saying, go get the blood E2 tested,
    adjust accordingly.
    Do not draw much conclusions from urine tests.

    .----------------------------------------------------
    About
    "It is a very good news that you are secondary."

    I sort of doubt that dr John would work with you on HCG only TRT.

    At least in the past he objected to any more of HCG that his protocol states.

    Being succesful on Testosterone theraphy is not such a bad deal,
    keep that in mind.
    .
    .



    .
    .
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    Definitely...I've got my full trust in the good Dr. Apparently the rhein is what's preferred right now. He was adamant about high E2, and immediately mentioned adex.

    What are your thoughts on using more than 500 ius of HCG per day? I guess you're open to the idea of it in some situations..
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    Quote Originally Posted by thenxtgrt1 View Post
    Definitely...I've got my full trust in the good Dr. Apparently the rhein is what's preferred right now. He was adamant about high E2, and immediately mentioned adex.

    What are your thoughts on using more than 500 ius of HCG per day? I guess you're open to the idea of it in some situations..
    I think that HCG only shoud be a superior to testosterone TRT.
    More natural, containing natural 24 hr testosterone level fluctuations.

    At this time we have only 2 people working on it, colkurtz_spf and Jinxie.

    Problem with HCG only is that one have to wait for results much longer.
    Shutdown testis respond slowy to HCG stimulation.
    Going by colkurtz_spf reports it takes 3-4 months for shut-down testis to recover not only physical shape but production.

    .
    .
    At present time whatewer Phil is doing makes more sense to me.

    #1 Gradually push maximum amount of HCG, to the point where it causes unacceptable raise in E2, then back down tiny bit.

    #2 if required, add missing testosterone using shots

    Phil is doing T shots E3D and 400iu HCG in days in between.
    That translates to
    2*400*7/3=1867iu/week on average
    he reports that at doses 450iu his E2 was very high so he had to back down.

    I do 500iu EOD
    500*7/2=1750iu/week on average

    my E2 actually falled down, I had to stop my small dose of Arimidex.

    After I am done with my current batch of planned testing, I may raise my HCG dose a notch and see what happen.
    My pre TRT LH=5.7
    so my testis were not in the best shape then,
    I do not put much hope for HCG only theraphy for my self.
    But as you see I am slowly working on it.

    .
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I think that HCG only shoud be a superior to testosterone TRT.
    More natural, containing natural 24 hr testosterone level fluctuations.

    At this time we have only 2 people working on it, colkurtz_spf and Jinxie.

    Problem with HCG only is that one have to wait for results much longer.
    Shutdown testis respond slowy to HCG stimulation.
    Going by colkurtz_spf reports it takes 3-4 months for shut-down testis to recover not only physical shape but production.

    .
    .
    At present time whatewer Phil is doing makes more sense to me.

    #1 Gradually push maximum amount of HCG, to the point where it causes unacceptable raise in E2, then back down tiny bit.

    #2 if required, add missing testosterone using shots

    Phil is doing T shots E3D and 400iu HCG in days in between.
    That translates to
    2*400*7/3=1867iu/week on average
    he reports that at doses 450iu his E2 was very high so he had to back down.

    I do 500iu EOD
    500*7/2=1750iu/week on average

    my E2 actually falled down, I had to stop my small dose of Arimidex.

    After I am done with my current batch of planned testing, I may raise my HCG dose a notch and see what happen.
    My pre TRT LH=5.7
    so my testis were not in the best shape then,
    I do not put much hope for HCG only theraphy for my self.
    But as you see I am slowly working on it.

    .
    .
    Hey Jan,

    I thought Phil was a patient of Dr. John's. Is that not true anymore?

    Mac
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacDonnell View Post
    Hey Jan,

    I thought Phil was a patient of Dr. John's. Is that not true anymore?

    Mac
    He only lives close to dr John.
    He is not his patient.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    [U]

    My pre TRT LH=5.7
    so my testis were not in the best shape then,
    I do not put much hope for HCG only theraphy for my self.
    But as you see I am slowly working on it.

    .
    .
    You're pre-TRT LH was 5.7. What was the range on this test?
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    Quote Originally Posted by thenxtgrt1 View Post
    You're pre-TRT LH was 5.7. What was the range on this test?

    I was already struggling with ED for two ot three years.
    Trying over the counter herbs and whatewer I could figure at the time.
    01/08/2004 (64 years old at that time, 180# then, 165# now)
    My pre TRT LH=5.7(1.5-9.3)

    =(5.7-1.5)/(9.3-1.5)=0.54

    More than half of signal and

    TT=311(241-827)
    E2=24(0-52)

    .
    .
  

  
 

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