Low Test levels need help

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    Exclamation Low Test levels need help


    2 months ago i did a superdrol cycle . I'm currently seeing an endocrinologist she says my total test was like 50, free test was lower and my estrogen was so low they couldn't find any. Now can anyone help me with options that could help me return to normal. I recently gave blood to see if my test increased from 2 months ago. My doctor feels it should return back to normal just slowly. I want to know if their is any options i can take to get back faster then just waiting. I am getting my results tomorrow, i will post them when i get them. She didn't want to give me testosterone because she thinks that would suppress me more.

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    what was your PCT?
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    basically your doctor is sort of right. There are some prescription things that maybe could help bring it back faster, but none of them are FDA approved for that useage. And she's right about not giving you testosterone.

    a reasonable OTC product to try is the stuff from primordial performance, the Sustain Alpha, Toco-8 + endoamp combination.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    basically your doctor is sort of right. There are some prescription things that maybe could help bring it back faster, but none of them are FDA approved for that useage. And she's right about not giving you testosterone.

    a reasonable OTC product to try is the stuff from primordial performance, the Sustain Alpha, Toco-8 + endoamp combination.
    Easy, what do you think of a SERM and/or HCG for his situation?

    And paint... YOU are prone to shutdown. If you're going to ever cycle again, you need to pulse lower doses and for shorter periods. Be Safe!
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    well, a serm is likely to help, but since he's under a dr's care right now unless the doctor likes the idea, its probably better not to monkey with. At least using the OTCs he can tell his doctor about it, and if they work anything else in she'll know. Actually post cycle support could be a good add on top of this.

    HCG maybe if another couple months its the same way and not improving.
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    my doctor felt novedex would be unnecessary because its more of a anti-estrogen. the main problem for me was i was on cycle and then somthing happened and i ended in the hospital and was never able to do a pct so im pretty much screwed. im waiting on my doctor to call me back I left a message so ill post my results when i get them.
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    my results came back normal but i still dont have any sex drive

    total 401 range 260-1000
    free 85.7 50-210
    LH 3.9 1.5-9.3
    FSH 1.3 1.6-8
    estrogen 56 around 54

    any help would be greatly appreciated
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    Quote Originally Posted by paint2100 View Post
    2 months ago i did a superdrol cycle . I'm currently seeing an endocrinologist she says my total test was like 50, free test was lower and my estrogen was so low they couldn't find any. Now can anyone help me with options that could help me return to normal. I recently gave blood to see if my test increased from 2 months ago. My doctor feels it should return back to normal just slowly. I want to know if their is any options i can take to get back faster then just waiting. I am getting my results tomorrow, i will post them when i get them. She didn't want to give me testosterone because she thinks that would suppress me more.
    What did the superdrol cycle look like? How long did you run it? What brand?
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    Quote Originally Posted by paint2100 View Post
    my results came back normal but i still dont have any sex drive

    total 401 range 260-1000
    free 85.7 50-210
    LH 3.9 1.5-9.3
    FSH 1.3 1.6-8
    estrogen 56 around 54

    any help would be greatly appreciated
    Your Testosterone and LH numbers look low. Your estrogen is high. What was your baseline before cycle and how old are you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by paint2100 View Post
    my results came back normal but i still dont have any sex drive

    total 401 range 260-1000
    free 85.7 50-210
    LH 3.9 1.5-9.3
    FSH 1.3 1.6-8
    estrogen 56 around 54

    any help would be greatly appreciated

    That is rather low T.

    But, if you correct your high E2 (carefully) then you may end up with

    correct E2 and higher TT

    .
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Your Testosterone and LH numbers look low. Your estrogen is high. What was your baseline before cycle and how old are you?
    My total testosterone levels last time i check was in the 600's. Whats a normal level for estrogen? I know im going to get flamed but im 19.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    That is rather low T.

    But, if you correct your high E2 (carefully) then you may end up with

    correct E2 and higher TT

    .
    .
    whats E2?
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    Quote Originally Posted by paint2100 View Post
    My total testosterone levels last time i check was in the 600's. Whats a normal level for estrogen? I know im going to get flamed but im 19.
    I won't flame you for your age. I'm no expert on estrogen levels but I believe the general consensus is that normal range is in the 20s. However, I believe that the ratio of estrogen to testosterone may also be a consideration. At your TT level estrogen is high. Arimidex could lower your estrogen and increase you test.
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    I'd be inclined to give it another month or two and see what happens
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I won't flame you for your age. I'm no expert on estrogen levels but I believe the general consensus is that normal range is in the 20s. However, I believe that the ratio of estrogen to testosterone may also be a consideration. At your TT level estrogen is high. Arimidex could lower your estrogen and increase you test.
    I may be wrong,
    but at the moment I am looking at Estrodial (E2) the same way I am looking at Testosterone.
    That is, the Total value is significant but only to a point.
    Better information can be had by looking at Free or BioAvailable values.

    I do my testing at Quest Diagnostics, these tests when checking for T, E2 & DHT

    Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
    Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
    Dihydrotestosterone, Free, Serum (36168X)

    Using above tests I am adjusting my DepoT, HCG, Arimidex to achieve:

    Testosterone Bioavailable ~575 (my important indicator)
    Testosterone Free~300 (secondary indicator)
    Estradiol, Free (0.45 - 0.6) (my important indicator)
    Estradiol (<29) (secondary indicator)
    Dihydrotestosterone, FREE~ 6.2%
    DHT ~75
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    Quote Originally Posted by paint2100 View Post
    novedex


    was never able to do a pct

    .

    You talking about novedex xt like the gaspari product? Or are you thinking nolvadex?

    I think that says it in a nutshell. I couldnt give you a definitive answer on doing PCT 2 months late, but if it works for turning your levels around and you dont get delayed gyno, as some super users report, it may just become all the rage

    I agree with your doctor also. Especially with you being 19(you might see a board rules edit soon) your naturally levels should reach a homeostasis eventually, could be a month, could be two years but theres a good chance they'll come back on their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I may be wrong,
    but at the moment I am looking at Estrodial (E2) the same way I am looking at Testosterone.
    That is, the Total value is significant but only to a point.
    Better information can be had by looking at Free or BioAvailable values.

    I do my testing at Quest Diagnostics, these tests when checking for T, E2 & DHT

    Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
    Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
    Dihydrotestosterone, Free, Serum (36168X)

    Using above tests I am adjusting my DepoT, HCG, Arimidex to achieve:

    Testosterone Bioavailable ~575 (my important indicator)
    Testosterone Free~300 (secondary indicator)
    Estradiol, Free (0.45 - 0.6) (my important indicator)
    Estradiol (<29) (secondary indicator)
    Dihydrotestosterone, FREE~ 6.2%
    DHT ~75
    It's an interesting theory and may explain why I don't feel bad when my estradiol sensitivity spikes. Unfortunately my doctor doesn't believe in testing bioavailable hormone levels. His treatment has been successful, so I haven't been motivated to change his mind. I'm going to ask him to include those panels in the next draw. I'm curious.
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    I think i may see a urologist to get another option. Also my sex drive is shot so something is messed up
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    It's an interesting theory and may explain why I don't feel bad when my estradiol sensitivity spikes. Unfortunately my doctor doesn't believe in testing bioavailable hormone levels. His treatment has been successful, so I haven't been motivated to change his mind. I'm going to ask him to include those panels in the next draw. I'm curious.
    Just in case you want to know, plus full disclosure.
    I do two more estrogen tests.

    Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS (30289X)
    Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X)

    The "Ultrasensitive" is Dr John's favorite.
    it have a peculiar range (<29)
    Untill now dr John resists questions on explaining on how to use this range. The condition is vague, someone who would return with E2=5 or close to it, would satisfy that condition, but I doubt if he would feel good.
    Usually people think that (20-29) is an acceptable range with that test, but it was newer clearly stated or discussed by competent person.
    .
    .
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    since my LH and FSH is low what should i do. Im not to familiar with these things could the LH and FSH be affecting my sex drive
    Last edited by paint2100; 04-26-2008 at 01:44 PM. Reason: forgot to add something
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    Quote Originally Posted by paint2100 View Post
    since my LH and FSH is low what should i do. Im not to familiar with these things could the LH and FSH be affecting my sex drive
    Get more complete testing, plus explain your situation.
    Off hand, low LH and FSH would mean that your testis are not getting enough signal to make their production.
    Secondary.
    You may benefit from HCG.

    But,
    why are they low?
    is that due to steroid abuse?
    If so, you may (mau not) benefit from restart effort.

    Whole picture is need to make assesment.
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    it is due to steroid use. What do you mean by restarting effort?

    total 401 range 260-1000
    free 85.7 50-210
    LH 3.9 1.5-9.3
    FSH 1.3 1.6-8
    estrogen 56 around 54

    that was all my doctor gave me over the phone. she said my thyroid was working fine but never gave numbers. I know its vague but thats alll i have. How would HCG help my situation?
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    Quote Originally Posted by paint2100 View Post
    it is due to steroid use. What do you mean by restarting effort?

    total 401 range 260-1000
    free 85.7 50-210
    LH 3.9 1.5-9.3
    FSH 1.3 1.6-8
    estrogen 56 around 54

    that was all my doctor gave me over the phone. she said my thyroid was working fine but never gave numbers. I know its vague but thats alll i have. How would HCG help my situation?
    Tell other kids that steroids are bad, for you may be either too late or you will have to be real patient and give your body a chance to recover, lots of time, couple years..


    Do some reading on this board and other places.
    You need to be educated to be able to talk to your doc or even able to figure out if your doc is any good.

    Figure out what kind of estrogen test you have had.
    For example, if what you posting "estrogen 56 around 54" was actually about Estrodial, it would ment that you are wery high there. Always post reference ranges and units.

    Read my thread if you have a time, there is three pages there.

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-...oodtest-2.html
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    does anyone feel my test levels of 401 are quite low for my age
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    range is 260-1000 so not really. its towards the low side, but the whole point of the range is that anything in there is reasonably normal for your age bracket.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paint2100 View Post
    does anyone feel my test levels of 401 are quite low for my age
    Wrong question,
    at least on two levels.

    #1. Do not be concerned with total testosterone levels,
    ask what is you BAT level.

    BAT- BioAvailableTestosterone

    #2. forget age levels, think that you want to be at the level of healthy young adult, say 25yo
    -----------------------------------------------

    401 is low by any measure.

    use Quest Diagnostics to do the testing, use this test:

    Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)


    Aim for top range.

    Testosterone Bioavailable (110-575)ng/dL

    When manipulating, use HCG first.
    The more your testis will produce, the more natural you will be.

    Use Testosterone supplementation only when the more natural choice does not provide high enough BAT level.

    .
    .
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    whats the different between bioavailable testosterone and free test or total test?
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    Quote Originally Posted by paint2100 View Post
    whats the different between bioavailable testosterone and free test or total test?

    TT -- Total testosterone is the amount of testosterone in blood per unit of blood

    That testosterone is bounded by

    SHBG -- Sex Hormone Binding Globuline (strong bound, hard, but possible to break), (almost half of testosterone is strongly bounded)
    and
    Albumin (weak bound, easily broken), (almost half of testosterone is weakly bound)

    FreeT -- Free testosterone is that leftover amount, not bounded by either SHBG or Albumin, about 2 - 3 %

    BAT- BioAvailableTestosterone
    BAT is a sum of Free and weakly bound testosterone
    ============================== ==============
    Note, the same SHBG is also binding Estrogens.
    That is why I am using FreeEstrodial test, when checking my E2.
    They call it FreeE2, but actually it is more like BioAvailableE2
    ============================== ==============
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    so i saw the urologist today and he just offered me Viagra to shut me up. So don't know what to do from here. anyone got ideas?
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    Not that I am an expert by any means but I would go with:

    1. SERM / HCG Then after that
    2. Mild AI like Formestane / NovedexXT (low dose just to control not crush)
    3. Sustain / Toca / Amp (or whatever name it is) stack
    4. You could also try Post Cycle Support by AI

    What PCT did you run?
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    I didn't get a chance to to a pct because i was in the hospital for two weeks. My doctor wouldn't give me HCG so i don't know how to get it. I may try some activate or some test booster. thanks for the advice.
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    I would run a proper PCT protocol.

    Email me at neo_born@h o t m a i l . c o m if you have questions not allowed on the board...

    Most Importantly!

    No Excuses & No ***** ***: A Stupid People's Guide to PCT

    SERM + P.C.T Guide

    Now please, anyone is free to discuss this and tell me I've totally got it wrong or need to add something. Now with that said:

    Bloodwork! I cannot / we cannot say this enough that it is highly recommended to get bloodwork so you know how to run your PCT and WHAT you need to run on your PCT.


    1. SERM - Torem, Ralox, Nolvadex etc

    Example Torem Dosing: - As per Interlocutor
    Day 1-5 = 120mg Torm
    Day 6-21 = 60mg Torm
    Day 22-28 = 30mg Torm

    Alternative Torm Dosing:
    Week1: Days 1-3: 120mg Torm, Days 4-7: 90 mg Torm
    Week2: 60mg Torm
    Week3: 60mg Torm
    Week4: 30mg Torm

    You should monitor this carefully and will most likely bounce back rather quickly with this SERM as per reports given by experienced users on the board.


    Example Nolva Dosing:
    Wk1: 40,40,40,20,20,20,20
    Wk2: 20mg everyday
    Wk3: 10mg everyday
    Wk4: 10mg everyday

    I am not sure why anyone would go above these dosages, as per Dinoii, as the large body of studies / material backs up dosages no more than 40mg and mainly focuses on 20mg / 10mg dosage schemes. More is not better

    2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe.

    3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

    4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

    5. Test Booster - Good reviews or I have used: Sustain Alpha(Recommended), Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

    NON-Rx SERM + P.C.T Guide

    1. Non Rx SERM - Post Cycle Support(Recommended), Sustain Alpha(Recommended)

    2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe, Advanced PCT.

    3. AI - Formestane(Recommended), Sustain Alpha(Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

    4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

    5. Test Booster - Good reviews or have used the following: Sustain Alpha(Recommended), Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

    All of the products and protocols above are open to discussion. This is not a hard and fast list but a guide to help.

    With that said Epistane style products on a non extreme usage style cycle are going to use a less extreme PCT. Better not to have huge hormonal swinging in either direction. Calm, steady and relative therapy is recommended.

    Things To Note

    1. You will most likely want to run your AI (Formestane) for a month or so after finishing your PCT therapy to make sure you experience no estrogen rebound / flooding. If you run your PCT for four weeks, as you ramp down on your SERM etc ramp up on your Formestane / AI so, to as keep your estrogen under control. There has been talk of SERMs actually exacerbating this problem due to kicking test up too high then *boom!* man boobs!

    2. Once done your PCT, and AI time ramp it down slowly until about one month after PCT


    3. Gynomastia - >>>Read This!<<< and >>>This!<<<

    4. Real Gynomastia Before & After's:


    5. Love your Liver!
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    Quote Originally Posted by paint2100 View Post
    so i saw the urologist today and he just offered me Viagra to shut me up. So don't know what to do from here. anyone got ideas?
    if prescription insurance covers it, take the viagra and any refills he'll give you its handy regardless. Then I'd say ignore neoborn's call for a full PCT, as its late for that, and just try using some of the natural testosterone boosters for a little while - Primal Male, Diesel Test Hardcore, Dermacrine Sustain Alpha, etc. At this point although lower than you'd like your test is not horrifying. So a natural aid will be gentler on you than a full bore PCT. You've already reached the point timeline wise where some guys (over 21) would be running another cycle. So starting the PCT now would just cause more hormone swings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    if prescription insurance covers it, take the viagra and any refills he'll give you its handy regardless. Then I'd say ignore neoborn's call for a full PCT, as its late for that, and just try using some of the natural testosterone boosters for a little while - Primal Male, Diesel Test Hardcore, Dermacrine Sustain Alpha, etc. At this point although lower than you'd like your test is not horrifying. So a natural aid will be gentler on you than a full bore PCT. You've already reached the point timeline wise where some guys (over 21) would be running another cycle. So starting the PCT now would just cause more hormone swings.
    Easy,

    Any risk of his test swinging back hard enough that when it aromatizes he might be at risk for gyno? Younger guys can bounce back with a vengeance if they just leave it alone for a while. I've heard this mechanism be proposed for delayed Superdrol gyno. Should he have some letro on hand just in case? Not for a standard PCT but just a safety net in anticipation of the hormonal flood.

    Appreciate your insight as always!
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    I guess its possible. considering there wasn't any pct tho, its done a more gentle return so far, and the natural test boosters shouldn't make it have that big of a jump. Hard to say tho. So long as he keeps a close look at it, he could get in to see the endo and get estrogen tested probably on a couple days notice if he starts to get itchy/puffy nipples. Maybe some 6-oxo or 6-bromo on hand as an AI
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    Quote Originally Posted by paint2100 View Post
    it is due to steroid use. What do you mean by restarting effort?

    total 401 range 260-1000
    free 85.7 50-210
    LH 3.9 1.5-9.3
    FSH 1.3 1.6-8
    estrogen 56 around 54

    that was all my doctor gave me over the phone. she said my thyroid was working fine but never gave numbers. I know its vague but thats alll i have. How would HCG help my situation?
    Look you want results ? take 50mg of clomid ED for 3 weeks
    and 1/2 femera, arimidex or aromasin your choice E2D after 3rd week cut CLO down to 25mg EOD for the next 2weeks and take
    1/2 of a A.ARO E4D then stop . take a test for t and FREE T and E levels at 3rd week and again at start of 5th week.
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    Dude i almost identically have the same problem. More than 2 months ago I did a cycle of testanate50. Then i refused to do a proper pct. I feel like utter crap. Its the worst way Ive ever felt. So i posted a thread and was recommended to do
    ed-everyday
    week 1:40 mg nolva ed
    3 6oxo ed
    diesel test hardcore ed rec. dosage
    week 2:40 mg nolva ed
    3 6oxo ed
    diesel test hardcore ed rec. dosage
    week 3:20 mg nolva ed
    6 6oxo ed
    diesel test hardcore ed rec. dosage
    week 4:20 mg nolva ed
    6 6oxo ed
    diesel test hardcore ed rec. dosage
  38. Registered User
    Gutterpump's Avatar
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    You did superdrol, so I would definately get your prolactin checked if I were you. It could be effecting your test/libido, but I think getting your estrogen/e2 in check should fix things.

    I wouldn't jump right into taking something else though, if you take an AI, take a low dose and ramp up/down. you don't want your hormones jumping all over the place and they seem to be balancing out now anyhow on their own.
  39. Banned
    gymrattus's Avatar
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    idiots
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