T rise from HCG

[bbuck]

Is there any good studies or info on how much the average male can expect his T to rise from using 250-500 iu's of hcg While on TRT. I use hcg the last 2 days before injecting my test cyp and was wondering how much or a rise the average guy gets from this protcol.

 

[JanSz]

Is there any good studies or info on how much the average male can expect his T to rise from using 250-500 iu's of hcg While on TRT. I use hcg the last 2 days before injecting my test cyp and was wondering how much or a rise the average guy gets from this protcol.

Yes, there is a study, see reference on my post #63:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jan-s-bloodtest-3.html

The way I read that study;
someone with good testis should get their full production by using

HCG 306iu EOD

The actual production depends on condition of testis.

Usually we look into this area because we are defficient there.

Injecting on last two days of the week looks like a compromise of few factors,
patience convenience being the biggest.

 

[bpmartyr]

I don't see how you could raise your T on TRT without increasing your dosage of exogenous test. HCG will increase LH but your HPTA will regulate T production in conjunction to any exogenous administration. In other words, you don't make test while you take test.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

I don't see how you could raise your T on TRT without increasing your dosage of exogenous test. HCG will increase LH but your HPTA will regulate T production in conjunction to any exogenous administration. In other words, you don't make test while you take test.

HCG will diminish your level of LH because it replaces it. It's the same as exogenous testosterone's effect on natural testosterone production. HCG can substantially increase both total and free test levels. My baseline before therapy was 475. My highest total and free testosterone levels on HCG alone have been 1400 and 425 respectively. Of course this will only work if you have a secondary condition. In this case HCG mimics LH and your testicles do the rest.

 

[bbuck]

I take for granted that my testes are not quite up to snuff. I have been on Dr. John Crislers test and hcg protocol for a few years now. He uses the hcg to replace the LH that the body has quit making due to the addional test from the Test Cyp injections. It also keeps the P450 pathway open as well as well as causing a increased sense of well being(according to many patients). The reason that the hcg is used at the end of the weekly cycle is to help with the drop in total testosterone and give you a boost till the next T injection. I have seen were a couple of guys on this protocol have mentioned a rise in T of around 200 from the hcg and was looking for further info. People on HRT have a good chance of having testes that are not working well so I was wondering what an average might be from such a group.

 

[JanSz]

I take for granted that my testes are not quite up to snuff. I have been on Dr. John Crislers test and hcg protocol for a few years now. He uses the hcg to replace the LH that the body has quit making due to the addional test from the Test Cyp injections. It also keeps the P450 pathway open as well as well as causing a increased sense of well being(according to many patients). The reason that the hcg is used at the end of the weekly cycle is to help with the drop in total testosterone and give you a boost till the next T injection. I have seen were a couple of guys on this protocol have mentioned a rise in T of around 200 from the hcg and was looking for further info. People on HRT have a good chance of having testes that are not working well so I was wondering what an average might be from such a group.

That 200 raise is mostly here say, it depends on individual.

With testis supported once weekly, basically you just hope that they would not shrink.

If you really want to know what your testis are producing,
best would be to follow what colkurtz_spf does.

For me, it would be a big effort and interuption of something that works.
I do however like the idea of getting a maximum from my testis first and only top off the missing part with T injections.

I am using now 500iu EOD.
I have made this change recently.
Previously 380iu EOD
My testis are little more firm now, also scrotum is (little) tighter more often, previously hung lower.

 

[bpmartyr]

Misnomer on my part. HCG will act as LH not raise it. My bad.

 

[phatkid77]

i was on 400iu 2x week, no raise in total T for me... E2 went up....

phats

 

[ItsHectic]

i was on 400iu 2x week, no raise in total T for me... E2 went up....

phats

Where you on testosterone?

 

[phatkid77]

yep, 150mg wk of enanthate....

 

[OldGator]

HCG dosage while on TRT

I am using now 500iu EOD.
I have made this change recently.
Previously 380iu EOD
My testis are little more firm now, also scrotum is (little) tighter more often, previously hung lower.

So JanSz, now you're doing about 1500iu's HCG a week. My doc (Shippen) has me on similar HCG schedule since I started TRT (compounded cream).
But I recently read where Dr. John now advocates breaking that HCG dose down even further to an every day injection (100-150iu's a day). BBuck, you are on Dr. John's protocol. Did I read that right about Dr. J advocating HCG every day?? Now he was specifically referring to HCG every day while on TRT of compounded T cream which may be different from his HCG protocol of TRT injections.
I don't mind pinning every day and I will tell doc that at my next appointment if he thinks that's a better way.
Maybe it doesn't matter at all??

 

[krazy]

So JanSz, now you're doing about 1500iu's HCG a week. My doc (Shippen) has me on similar HCG schedule since I started TRT (compounded cream).
But I recently read where Dr. John now advocates breaking that HCG dose down even further to an every day injection (100-150iu's a day). BBuck, you are on Dr. John's protocol. Did I read that right about Dr. J advocating HCG every day?? Now he was specifically referring to HCG every day while on TRT of compounded T cream which may be different from his HCG protocol of TRT injections.
I don't mind pinning every day and I will tell doc that at my next appointment if he thinks that's a better way.
Maybe it doesn't matter at all??

Yes, low daily does. It is worth the time spent reading his 2 1-2 page publications on his site:
www.allthingsmale.com
Click 'Publications'
Read 'TRT: Recipe for Success' and the one about HCG.

 

[OldGator]

Yes, low daily does. It is worth the time spent reading his 2 1-2 page publications on his site:
www.allthingsmale.com
Click 'Publications'
Read 'TRT: Recipe for Success' and the one about HCG.

Thanks. He recommends HCG every 3rd day while on T cream. It's exactly what my doc recommended. So I must have misread the "every day" thing.

 

[JanSz]

So JanSz, now you're doing about 1500iu's HCG a week. My doc (Shippen) has me on similar HCG schedule since I started TRT (compounded cream).
But I recently read where Dr. John now advocates breaking that HCG dose down even further to an every day injection (100-150iu's a day). BBuck, you are on Dr. John's protocol. Did I read that right about Dr. J advocating HCG every day?? Now he was specifically referring to HCG every day while on TRT of compounded T cream which may be different from his HCG protocol of TRT injections.
I don't mind pinning every day and I will tell doc that at my next appointment if he thinks that's a better way.
Maybe it doesn't matter at all??

On 3/19/08 I had blood drawn. Still waiting for results.
Depending on my E2 status I may go back to my old dose (380iu EOD).

I like my scrotum and testicles better on this new higher dose but am not sure of my E2 status.

 

[Mbmartin]

I experienced a 200 point increase in my Total T (ref range: 240-864) when I was using 100IU/day of HCG

 

[testodan]

I experienced a 200 point increase in my Total T (ref range: 240-864) when I was using 100IU/day of HCG

Were you on T?

 

[Mbmartin]

Sorry - Yes, I was on 50mg E3D of depo-testosterone, and I have secondary hypogonadism

 

[testodan]

yep, 150mg wk of enanthate....

Primary or Secondary?

 

[phatkid77]

honestly, not sure..

 

[ItsHectic]

Thanks. He recommends HCG every 3rd day while on T cream. It's exactly what my doc recommended. So I must have misread the "every day" thing.

Nope Im on 100IU every day.

 

[OldGator]

Nope Im on 100IU every day.

That must be his new view that I heard about (I thought I heard that he said that). So the doing HCG every 3rd day like he talks about in his paper (on his site) must be an older protocol.

Did you used to take a higher dose less often? Do you prefer the lower daily dose? Did he explain why a more frequent dose is better?

 

[JanSz]

Nope Im on 100IU every day.

Why are you using T-cream, is it because of need to raise DHT or some other reason?

 

[OldGator]

Why are you using T-cream, is it because of need to raise DHT or some other reason?

yes, lower end DHT and low libido so Dr. Shippen is trying the cream first. I started 3 weeks ago and will be getting my first blood test (since starting TRT) next week but I feel great and my libido is much better.
I always had low DHT and E. We'll keep eye on DHT - I got a full head of hair I prefer to keep!
No anti-E yet. My E was always on the low side and my nips feel normal so I'm thinking it's still in a good range. I do take Nature's Way Dim Plus however.
I'll post my blood results when I get them back.

Also been having my best workouts in years.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

yes, lower end DHT and low libido so Dr. Shippen is trying the cream first. I started 3 weeks ago and will be getting my first blood test (since starting TRT) next week but I feel great and my libido is much better.
I always had low DHT and E. We'll keep eye on DHT - I got a full head of hair I prefer to keep!
No anti-E yet. My E was always on the low side and my nips feel normal so I'm thinking it's still in a good range. I do take Nature's Way Dim Plus however.
I'll post my blood results when I get them back.

Also been having my best workouts in years.

If your hair is full it should stay that way. At your age it's a sign that your hair is genetically resistant to DHT. My DHT went through the roof on the cream and I lost none. Your main concern should be your prostate.

 

[OldGator]

If your hair is full it should stay that way. At your age it's a sign that your hair is genetically resistant to DHT. My DHT went through the roof on the cream and I lost none. Your main concern should be your prostate.

Watching that too. What do you think about saw palmetto?

 

[phatkid77]

saw palmetto with nizoral 2%....what i do..

 

[colkurtz_spf]

Watching that too. What do you think about saw palmetto?

Many swear by it, but I don't like what saw palmetto does to my libido. Hopefully you won't have a DHT problem. If you do you might be able to lower your dose, or better yet switch to injections. DHT is at risk with any elevation in testosterone no matter what the source. However, for some reason it's prone to higher elevations on the cream. I think mine went to 112. On high doses of HCG I pushed the envelope at 75. Like you, I normally have low E2 and DHT. I'm not sure why, but I've never had libido issues. It could be that libido is also influenced by hormones/chemicals in the brain. I did feel quite an increase when my DHT was out of whack. It just wasn't worth the risk of prostate cancer.

 

[ItsHectic]

Did you used to take a higher dose less often? Do you prefer the lower daily dose? Did he explain why a more frequent dose is better?

Havent even started on it yet, he didnt explain why the frequent dosage.

Why are you using T-cream, is it because of need to raise DHT or some other reason?

Im on testogel, because it mimics the natural rise and fall of testosterone compared to injections.

 

[OldGator]

DHT on T Cream

Many swear by it, but I don't like what saw palmetto does to my libido. Hopefully you won't have a DHT problem. If you do you might be able to lower your dose, or better yet switch to injections. DHT is at risk with any elevation in testosterone no matter what the source. However, for some reason it's prone to higher elevations on the cream. I think mine went to 112. On high doses of HCG I pushed the envelope at 75. Like you, I normally have low E2 and DHT. I'm not sure why, but I've never had libido issues. It could be that libido is also influenced by hormones/chemicals in the brain. I did feel quite an increase when my DHT was out of whack. It just wasn't worth the risk of prostate cancer.

The skin transfer aromatizes more and thus more DHT (and E) where the injections bypass the skin altogther. I think most good TRT docs always start patients off on cream - including Dr. John and my doc (Shippen). If you can get a nice boost on the DHT (assuming you were on the low side like me) without going too high that's perfect.
Dr. John once said DHT IS the male hormone. Of course if it goes too high that's another story and you get switched to injections. But I'm needing the DHT boost and I feel pretty damn good after 3 weeks on the cream.
My blood test next week also includes DHT so we'll soon see.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

The skin transfer aromatizes more and thus more DHT (and E) where the injections bypass the skin altogther. I think most good TRT docs always start patients off on cream - including Dr. John and my doc (Shippen). If you can get a nice boost on the DHT (assuming you were on the low side like me) without going too high that's perfect.
Dr. John once said DHT IS the male hormone. Of course if it goes too high that's another story and you get switched to injections. But I'm needing the DHT boost and I feel pretty damn good after 3 weeks on the cream.
My blood test next week also includes DHT so we'll soon see.

Hopefully DHT won't be an issue. The cream is convenient.

 

[krazy]

It just wasn't worth the risk of prostate cancer.

So then you felt the risk of prostate cancer > benefits from t-cream?

Did you switch to IM?

 

[colkurtz_spf]

So then you felt the risk of prostate cancer > benefits from t-cream?

Did you switch to IM?

I switched doctors - not because of the T-cream, but because my doctor didn't believe much in HCG as a regular part of his prescribed protocol. My Total Test level was at 1711 and I felt crappy. He wanted to control the DHT problem with proscar and I got a second opinion.

My new doctor won't prescribe T-cream. He hasn't prescribed any form of testosterone for me yet. I've been using HCG alone. It works for me because I'm secondary, and as my doctor puts it still young enough at 50 to respond. I've been lucky. My numbers have been outstanding and I feel great.