So... lemmie get this straight... Best plan of action for TRT?

[krazy]

So, if I have this correct, the most ideal TRT treatment would be:

Testosterone cream
PROS: raises T levels (obviously)
CONS: shuts down LH/FSH levels, therefore, causing ball shrinkage

+

HCG
PROS: emulates LH, causes ball enlargement, increase in sperm + ejaculation volume
CONS: highly aromatic

+

AI
PROS: inhibits the aromatic activity from HCG
CONS: uhh... dunno.



Am I getting this right?

This yields...
-high T
-normal ball size
-safe and efficient treatment for long-term (10 years)
-no other bad interactions or problems.

Yes?

 

[OldGator]

Am I getting this right?

Sort of.

The HCG dose used to discourage testicular atrophy when on TRT is usually not enough on it's own to create enough conversion to E to be considered a major problem, therefore the AI is used mainly to combat conversion from the T itself, especially T cream which has an affinity to do a lot of aromatization via the skin. This also raises DHT. (When high doses of HCG are used alone as the TRT therapy itself there will certainly be aromatization issues but this is not the protocol you cite).


T injections will yield less aromatization than T cream, so there is an active debate about which is best although many docs (including well known ones here) usually start TRT patients off first on the cream.

 

[LeanGuy]

Don't forget SERMs

 

[krazy]

Don't forget SERMs

What part of the equation necessitates this?

 

[LeanGuy]

What part of the equation necessitates this?

Just another option... it depends on the cause of your low test. You mentioned AI's, so I assume you're secondary? I am secondary and clomid has been great so far.

 

[bioman]

"AI
PROS: inhibits the aromatic activity from HCG
CONS: uhh... dunno."

Difficult to find the "sweet spot" in terms of dosing. Has strong potential to mess up your lipid levels.

SERMs..cons include boosting the actual numbers of estrogen receptors. Since you lock up a good number of ERs, the body, seeking equilibrium presumably, produces more so hypothetically you might end up increasing the dose over the years and that's when these drugs elicit their negative sides via increased free radical expression.

I am considering one or more of these options myself. Will look in to Clomid soon.

 

[krazy]

Great feedback. Thanks everybody.

This thread bottom-lines alot of things in a great way

EDIT: One final question.... so where is the line drawn so a long term treatment is considered 'beneficial'? It seems at every step of this stage, that is some drawback. Serious **** like high cholesterol, sterility, etc. At what point and what protocol do we consider 'success'?

 

[bioman]

I think that is a question on a lot of people's minds as TR therapies of this nature are so new. It seems that whatever route you go, you need constant bloodwork to insure all is well..which really just highlights the complexities of the endocrine system.

I don't think there is one straight answer for your question other than it's up to you..ie how much risk are you willing to accept in order to have higher test levels?

 

[EasyEJL]

well, and for most TRT candidates sterility isn't much of an issue. if you are in your 40s already, how many more kids do you intend to have?

Another one of the factors that gets watched is prostate, as a doctor will likely discontinue TRT if you begin to develop enlarged prostate, which would really suck after having been on it a while (as your natural production will come back very slowly)

 

[Gutterpump]

EDIT: One final question.... so where is the line drawn so a long term treatment is considered 'beneficial'? It seems at every step of this stage, that is some drawback. Serious **** like high cholesterol, sterility, etc. At what point and what protocol do we consider 'success'?

Lipids and sterility can always be dealt with. I wouldn't worry about the later unless you are trying to conceive, and then there is a protocol for that as well (adding hcg/hmg and maybe clomid). People have still been able to conceive on T, you actually have a better chance of conceiving if your T levels are healthy, not just LH/FSH. I would say a long term treatment plan is considered beneficial once you obtain a good quality of life from it.

 

[krazy]

True that. The only reason why Im looking at this so critically is that Im 20, the age when you should be bleeding pure testosterone, Im having to plan out things like this for 20 years from now.. much less what happens at that stage when the average person is a candidate for TRT anyway.

Thanks for the insights.

 

[LeanGuy]

I am considering one or more of these options myself. Will look in to Clomid soon.

I've been on clomid for a month. No followup bloodwork yet, but I can feel my test levels are probably 700-800 again, and the boys are bigger too. I still have one more month to go, so hopefully it won't build too many new estrogen receptors. The big question is... will the high test levels remain after stopping.

 

[krazy]

I've been on clomid for a month. No followup bloodwork yet, but I can feel my test levels are probably 700-800 again, and the boys are bigger too. I still have one more month to go, so hopefully it won't build too many new estrogen receptors. The big question is... will the high test levels remain after stopping.

Are you doing a cycle or is that TRT? If TRT, how/why are you scheduling your Clomid use?

 

[LeanGuy]

Are you doing a cycle or is that TRT? If TRT, how/why are you scheduling your Clomid use?

TRT... 12.5mg/day/2 mo, doctor ordered.

My test was low from a combination of stress, insomnia, and varicocele. I am slowly getting my life back.

 

[bioman]

How's your mood and libido on the clomid?

 

[beckerj]

I'm still hyming and hawing on the Nolvadex ....

LeanGuy .... You are now on TRT ? How did you get your Doc to prescribe it ?

 

[JanSz]

Best plan of action for TRT?

Best plan of action for TRT?

Best depends on individual, so there is no one good answer.

Well, just one, the one that requires a least intervention.

Some answers depends on the life style,
ie; professional diver or fisherman can hardly be satisfied with anything transdermal.

Lots of compromises are required of someone in need for TRT.
.
.

 

[LeanGuy]

I'm still hyming and hawing on the Nolvadex ....

LeanGuy .... You are now on TRT ? How did you get your Doc to prescribe it ?

No, I started with TRT gel and didn't like it, so now on clomid and liking it.

Let me know how nolva works out for you.

 

[LeanGuy]

How's your mood and libido on the clomid?

Both good at the low dose I'm using, can't wait to see how I feel after.

 

[professorJohn]

Nolva

Any reason you want to switch to nolva if you're doing good on clomid?

No, I started with TRT gel and didn't like it, so now on clomid and liking it.

Let me know how nolva works out for you.

 

[LeanGuy]

Any reason you want to switch to nolva if you're doing good on clomid?

Nope, didn't say I want to switch. Been talking to beckerj in the past and just wondering how nolva compares to clomid since he's tried both.

I might run a little arimidex when I'm done with clomid, depending on my E2 level. It has slowly been rising since starting... 25...29...

 

[professorJohn]

nolva

Oh, okay, thanks. What dose of clomid are you currently taking?

Nope, didn't say I want to switch. Been talking to beckerj in the past and just wondering how nolva compares to clomid since he's tried both.

I might run a little arimidex when I'm done with clomid, depending on my E2 level. It has slowly been rising since starting... 25...29...

 

[colkurtz_spf]

Sort of.

The HCG dose used to discourage testicular atrophy when on TRT is usually not enough on it's own to create enough conversion to E to be considered a major problem, therefore the AI is used mainly to combat conversion from the T itself, especially T cream which has an affinity to do a lot of aromatization via the skin. This also raises DHT. (When high doses of HCG are used alone as the TRT therapy itself there will certainly be aromatization issues but this is not the protocol you cite).


T injections will yield less aromatization than T cream, so there is an active debate about which is best although many docs (including well known ones here) usually start TRT patients off first on the cream.

You are right. I was on T-cream for a year. Both DHT and estradiol went through the roof. I think you need a substantial amount of HCG to create the same situation. T- cream keeps your levels constant. HCG mimics your body's natural rhythm. For what it's worth, my doc won't prescribe T-cream because of DHT.

 

[krazy]

You are right. I was on T-cream for a year. Both DHT and estradiol went through the roof. I think you need a substantial amount of HCG to create the same situation. T- cream keeps your levels constant. HCG mimics your body's natural rhythm. For what it's worth, my doc won't prescribe T-cream because of DHT.

Why did you get off T-cream? That + HCG looks like the best option to me right now.


Sorry, I am an anabolic noob but....

What function does DHT have?

Id use the search but Im in class and would rather not draw any attention

 

[LeanGuy]

Oh, okay, thanks. What dose of clomid are you currently taking?

12.5mg/day

I stopped T-gel because it raised my DHT 2x max... that shut down my natural T, and that actually lowered my total/free T. Much happier with clomid. If my levels don't stay after I go off, I'll try HCG.

 

[RockyD]

Why did you get off T-cream? That + HCG looks like the best option to me right now.


Sorry, I am an anabolic noob but....

What function does DHT have?

[I've been on TRT for almost 2 years]
From what I read here..
DHT will amplify the acceleration of baldness if you have the gene already..if I remember correctly.
But DHT is also good for maintaining a strong libido.

I'm not a doctor..just repeating what I learned from this great board.

My 0.02 . . . ask for Depo-T inj. from your doctor.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

I get the best results from HCG alone.

Why did you get off T-cream? That + HCG looks like the best option to me right now.


Sorry, I am an anabolic noob but....

What function does DHT have?

Id use the search but Im in class and would rather not draw any attention