HCG not restoring ball size.

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    HCG not restoring ball size.


    Hey guys,

    I'm a 19 year old on 150mg T enanthate weekly.

    I've been doing HCG for nearly a month now. I've tried everything from 500IU a week to 1,000IU a week (split into 2 days as per the Crisler protocol) and it has not made a single difference in my ball size or my well being.

    I was on T for a couple of months without the HCG and the atrophy was minimal although my load was somewhat decreased (no doubt I had a decreased sperm count as well but that does not concern me right now).

    Anyway, as time went on the atrophy got a bit worse as we bumped from 100mg of T to 150mg (although libido, wellbeing, strength and everything else good went up). My balls have lost a bit of size but still look like a perfectly normal pair.

    Thing is, HCG hasn't restored them to their previous size, which concerns me. I think it has helped increase my load a bit, but that's about it.

    At 70$ a month, that's quite an investment to be making for such little benefit.

    I'm going to see a *real* specialist that will fix me right up, but that's only in a month.

    Any ideas on what could be going on here? I didn't actually see the bloodwork results that were done after being 1.5 months on T but my endo assured me that everything looked good (high T, normal e2) but that's all he said. No bloodwork was done after starting the HCG, unfortunately, and maybe that's something I should do.

    No issues with gyno whatsoever so I doubt my E is causing me much trouble.... but you never know.

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    Are you primary or secordary?
    How are you storing / reconstituting your hcg?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Are you primary or secordary?
    How are you storing / reconstituting your hcg?
    Secondary.

    With the first box of HCG I got, at room temp, I just used a 20 gauge needle and syringe, took all the sterile water out of the first vial, ejected that into the vial with the powder and shook it a little bit, and immediately stored it in the fridge. In fact, I do all my HCG injections with the fridge door open for fear of the vial's temp dropping.

    With the second box of HCG (I got that one yesterday), I did the exact same thing with the sole difference that I first put both vials in the fridge so that the sterile water would already be cold before mixing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bungloid48 View Post
    Secondary.

    With the first box of HCG I got, at room temp, I just used a 20 gauge needle and syringe, took all the sterile water out of the first vial, ejected that into the vial with the powder and shook it a little bit, and immediately stored it in the fridge. In fact, I do all my HCG injections with the fridge door open for fear of the vial's temp dropping.

    With the second box of HCG (I got that one yesterday), I did the exact same thing with the sole difference that I first put both vials in the fridge so that the sterile water would already be cold before mixing.
    I read at drugs.com that HCG should not be shaken. Swirl it and let it dissolve. Don't worry so much about the temperature. As long as you keep it refrigerated it should be OK. There's no point to pre-cooling the BA water. You know it's going bad when it turns cloudy. Inject using a 30 gage insulin needle. If you are mixing the entire 10 ML vial of water 50 units will equal 500 IUs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I read at drugs.com that HCG should not be shaken. Swirl it and let it dissolve. Don't worry so much about the temperature. As long as you keep it refrigerated it should be OK. There's no point to pre-cooling the BA water. You know it's going bad when it turns cloudy. Inject using a 30 gage insulin needle. If you are mixing the entire 10 ML vial of water 50 units will equal 500 IUs.
    Yup. So the only possible explanation thus far is that I ruined it by mildly shaking it?

    The solution isn't cloudy at all. It's clear as water.
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    where did you get the HCG? **not asking for source** Do you know it is legit? Pharmacy? Pregnyl?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bungloid48 View Post
    Yup. So the only possible explanation thus far is that I ruined it by mildly shaking it?

    The solution isn't cloudy at all. It's clear as water.

    It gets cloudy after time, or if it's been unrefrigerated. Shaking it would leave it clear, but possibly destroy its structure. I didn't think it mattered until I read otherwise. Pistonpump is correct in questioning the source. Another thing to consider is that your dose may be too low - at least for now. You may want to double it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    It gets cloudy after time or if it's been unrefrigerated. Shaking it would leave it clear, but possibly destroy its structure. I didn't think it mattered until I read otherwise.
    Damn, why isn't there a more clear warning not to shake the contents like GH has plastered all over the place? Does not make any sense. So is this 150$ down the drain?????

    It's legit HCG from the pharm. I got a script. The only size they have is 10,000IUs. Search for "phatkid pharmacy" thread for pics. I'm using the exact same brand and size as he is. Maybe he can chime in...
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    It gets cloudy after time, or if it's been unrefrigerated. Shaking it would leave it clear, but possibly destroy its structure. I didn't think it mattered until I read otherwise. Pistonpump is correct in questioning the source. Another thing to consider is that your dose may be too low - at least for now. You may want to double it.
    I've thought of doubling it. It wouldn't be a problem. But what about the whole "leydig cell desensitization" thing? That's what shyed me away.

    What dosage should I try that is within the safe range? Obviously, with 10,000IUs and a 30 day shelf-life, I can experiment with some large dosages.

    Thanks.
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    i havent seen much ball size improvement either. i do 300iu 2x a week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bungloid48 View Post
    I've thought of doubling it. It wouldn't be a problem. But what about the whole "leydig cell desensitization" thing? That's what shyed me away.

    What dosage should I try that is within the safe range? Obviously, with 10,000IUs and a 30 day shelf-life, I can experiment with some large dosages.

    Thanks.
    I've heard about leydig desensitization too. Let me tell you about my personal experience. My doctor had me on 10,000 IUs per week for two months and 8,000 for the next eight. The last two months I reduced to 4,000. During this time my total test never dropped below 1100 and free levels ranged from 250 to 425. I was using HCG as TRT and drew blood regularly to make sure other hormones were in balance.

    I stopped completely for about 8 months to try herbal alternativesthat didn't do the job and then decided to go back on. This time I reduced the dose to 2,000 IUs per week. On my last draw, after six weeks of use my total was at 957 and free at 233. It appears my leydig cells are in tact after a year of very heavy use. I don't necessarily recommend this for you. We are all different and I believe the advice and monitoring of a physician is required.
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    I've tried 380iu twice a week while I was taking 5-6 sqrts of dermacrine daily. Kept em hangin low, but I didn't get a feeling of well being or a libido increase at all from it. I felt nothing immediately after injecting IM, nor later on in the day. I think my loads got a bit larger though. Nothing drastic mind you.

    Brand was organon pregnyl.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    I've tried 380iu twice a week while I was taking 5-6 sqrts of dermacrine daily. Kept em hangin low, but I didn't get a feeling of well being or a libido increase at all from it. I felt nothing immediately after injecting IM, nor later on in the day. I think my loads got a bit larger though. Nothing drastic mind you.

    Brand was organon pregnyl.
    What is the amount of liquid that you drew.
    I oppened second ampoule today.
    I got out 0.62cc
    Label says 1mL

    Powder says 1500iu

    I divided the liquid into 4 equal parts
    0.62/4=0.155=15.5units
    so hopefully each of shots will be
    1500/4=375iu
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    If you are on T constantly you won't be producing on your own from what I understand. If you were off T and wanting and able to produce on your own then they would grow. Even with my LH and FSH high my left nut was kind of small. I've been taking Indolplex/Dim. It is getting back to normal now. I'm guessing my estradiol was keeping me from producing enough and it shrunk. How is your estradiol level?

    Also how was the size before? The hcg will keep you producing what you can I think but maybe you just aren't producing enough? I'm guessing and trying to learn myself. So don't take my posts and try anything different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I've heard about leydig desensitization too. Let me tell you about my personal experience. My doctor had me on 10,000 IUs per week for two months and 8,000 for the next eight. The last two months I reduced to 4,000. During this time my total test never dropped below 1100 and free levels ranged from 250 to 425. I was using HCG as TRT and drew blood regularly to make sure other hormones were in balance.

    I stopped completely for about 8 months to try herbal alternativesthat didn't do the job and then decided to go back on. This time I reduced the dose to 2,000 IUs per week. On my last draw, after six weeks of use my total was at 957 and free at 233. It appears my leydig cells are in tact after a year of very heavy use. I don't necessarily recommend this for you. We are all different and I believe the advice and monitoring of a physician is required.
    Great info, thank you.
    Do you happen to have BAT values, corresponding to TT & FreeT values?
    Better yet, if you could share complete info.
    TT
    FreeT
    BAT
    SHBG
    Albumin
    --------------------------------------
    From study and my post #63
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007

    I see that 100% of HCG supply is 306iu/EOD
    306*7/2=1070iu/week

    It appears that 2000iu/week may be a safe dose.
    2000/7*2=570


    I will keep this in mind, I am using now 380iu/EOD
    that is 380*7/2=1330

    The Pregnyl 1500
    I may divide into 3 shots rather than current 4.
    ----------
    Using always fresh HCG never hurts.
    What is your experience in this area?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Great info, thank you.
    Do you happen to have BAT values, corresponding to TT & FreeT values?
    Better yet, if you could share complete info.
    TT
    FreeT
    BAT
    SHBG
    Albumin
    --------------------------------------
    From study and my post #63
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007

    I see that 100% of HCG supply is 306iu/EOD
    306*7/2=1070iu/week

    It appears that 2000iu/week may be a safe dose.
    2000/7*2=570


    I will keep this in mind, I am using now 380iu/EOD
    that is 380*7/2=1330

    The Pregnyl 1500
    I may divide into 3 shots rather than current 4.
    ----------
    Using always fresh HCG never hurts.
    What is your experience in this area?
    My last draw was an interim (six weeks) to see how the HCG was working. The only results were the ones I posted:

    Total T - 957
    Free T - 233
    Estradiol 26

    I'm having a comprehensive panel done the middle of March. I'll post the results. SHBG will not be included as my doctor does not see the need, at least where I'm concerned. I've read about its importance in this forum and made mention to him. That's about as far as I will go. I have felt nothing short of great on his protocol, and figure if it isn't broken don't fix it.

    I normally split my dose 1000 IUs on Tuesday and 1000 IUs on Saturday (both in the evenings). A week ago I asked if I could split the Tuesday dose on Thursday (500 Tuesday and 500 on Thursday). I like the way it feels and I'm anxious to see the results. As for 2000 being safe I have no doubt. I did between 8000 and 10,000 a week for damn near a year without becoming desensitized. The main problem was estrogen. You probably remember the results I posted. For some reason the files have been removed. It was under “My Cenegenics Experience.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    What is the amount of liquid that you drew.
    I oppened second ampoule today.
    I got out 0.62cc
    Label says 1mL

    Powder says 1500iu

    I divided the liquid into 4 equal parts
    0.62/4=0.155=15.5units
    so hopefully each of shots will be
    1500/4=375iu

    I take 1mL of solvent, reconstitute the hcg, move that to a sterile multi-draw vial. I then take 1mL of bacteriostatic water to dilute (inject down side of glass to mix lightly) and then place in fridge.

    so that's 1500iu / 2mL

    I take .5cc for each shot.

    Each shot then = ~ 375iu (same as yours)


    I've stopped taking HCG for the past week now. When I was taking it, I would also take 8-10mg aromasin ed. My joints were hurting a bit during workouts (wrists hurt) so I stopped that as well. My e2 was around 30 when last checked (before taking anything), wasn't too high, so I was likely taking a tad too much aromasin afterwards.

    Will likely be starting up HCG again, but maybe on an eod schedule. I may re-introduce around 4mg of aromasin, for a short while, take 2 months off and then re-assess before talking to dr john.
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    What the hell is the point of doing HCG 250IU twice weekly then? Dr. Crisler claims it restores ball size in his patients and yet all I hear is people complaining that it doesn't do jack **** as such low dosages, and when you ramp it up, your estrogen levels skyrocket. I've even read of one guy getting suicidal depression from taking HCG.
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    I wouldn't take other patient's recommendations per say. Best to consult with your dr and he will tweak as needed. Not everyone is the same, but there are guidelines Dr's may follow with people when they first start.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    I wouldn't take other patient's recommendations per say. Best to consult with your dr and he will tweak as needed. Not everyone is the same, but there are guidelines Dr's may follow with people when they first start.

    Good advice. I wouldn't try any of this without the care of a physician. Everyone is different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    My last draw was an interim (six weeks) to see how the HCG was working. The only results were the ones I posted:

    Total T - 957
    Free T - 233
    Estradiol 26

    I'm having a comprehensive panel done the middle of March. I'll post the results. SHBG will not be included as my doctor does not see the need, at least where I'm concerned. I've read about its importance in this forum and made mention to him. That's about as far as I will go. I have felt nothing short of great on his protocol, and figure if it isn't broken don't fix it.

    I normally split my dose 1000 IUs on Tuesday and 1000 IUs on Saturday (both in the evenings). A week ago I asked if I could split the Tuesday dose on Thursday (500 Tuesday and 500 on Thursday). I like the way it feels and I'm anxious to see the results. As for 2000 being safe I have no doubt. I did between 8000 and 10,000 a week for damn near a year without becoming desensitized. The main problem was estrogen. You probably remember the results I posted. For some reason the files have been removed. It was under “My Cenegenics Experience.”
    Remind me about your Estrogen (or was it Estrodial) experience.
    With my "normal" (380iu/EOD) dose I do not note any E2 changes.
    I do use Liquidex, small amount, I think resonable for my 178.5mg/week average T dose.

    What is the deal if the HCG dose is increased to say 2000iu=570iu/EOD average?
    Should I then expect need for AI adjustment?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Remind me about your Estrogen (or was it Estrodial) experience.
    With my "normal" (380iu/EOD) dose I do not note any E2 changes.
    I do use Liquidex, small amount, I think resonable for my 178.5mg/week average T dose.

    What is the deal if the HCG dose is increased to say 2000iu=570iu/EOD average?
    Should I then expect need for AI adjustment?
    I don't know how you'll respond. I'm not using testosterone. So far I have no problem with 2000 IUs. I'm taking .5 mg of Arimidex twice per week as a precaution. I also take 75 mg of DHEA every day and 25 mg of progesterone each evening. I will have to see where my estrogen level is the next draw. It usually takes time for the feedback to kick in on HCG. At least that's been my experience. My estrogen level stayed in the normal range the first 8 weeks at 10,000 IUs. When I reduced to 8000 IUs it went up to 56 and I had to use Arimidex.
    Last edited by colkurtz_spf; 03-01-2008 at 02:47 AM.
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    I noticed absolutely nothing until Dr. Shippen move me to 600 iu (60 unit on insulin syringe) three times a week. I now thats high to some but Dr. Shippen said nothing to worry about at that dose except maybe a little estrogen. He said he has guys almost twice as high.
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffinannie View Post
    Dr. Shippen move me to 600 iu three times a week. He said he has guys almost twice as high.
    I'm one of those guys.

    He just upped me from 600iu EOD to 1000iu EOD (which I do as 500iu ED to balance). I need to get to about 950 TT to get good free test per his chart (because my SHBG is high). 600iu EOD got me from 300 to 690TT, he wants to see if this bigger dose of HCG will get me all the way there. He always saves the addition of testosterone for last - just his way of doing things.

    I don't know. I was a little concerned about that high of a dose of HCG but doc said "no big deal". Now after reading above about the huge doses COLKURZ was/is taking (and feeling great), I feel better about "only" taking 3,500iu a week.
    I have been feeling a little more "irritable" since my doses increased 2 weeks ago so I'm wondering about my E. It was always in the mid 20's and now I'm wondering if it took off. Doc only uses low dose danazol (20mg) which he said he prescribed to help lower my high SHBG. Many swear no drugs lower SHBG but my SHBG went from 56 to 35. Yet when I google Danazol it seems to be a form of anti-E(?)

    Anyway, I should have my blood test results back today or Monday at the latest and I'll post results if anyone is interested.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    I'm one of those guys.

    He just upped me from 600iu EOD to 1000iu EOD (which I do as 500iu ED to balance). I need to get to about 950 TT to get good free test per his chart (because my SHBG is high). 600iu EOD got me from 300 to 690TT, he wants to see if this bigger dose of HCG will get me all the way there. He always saves the addition of testosterone for last - just his way of doing things.

    I don't know. I was a little concerned about that high of a dose of HCG but doc said "no big deal". Now after reading above about the huge doses COLKURZ was/is taking (and feeling great), I feel better about "only" taking 3,500iu a week.
    I have been feeling a little more "irritable" since my doses increased 2 weeks ago so I'm wondering about my E. It was always in the mid 20's and now I'm wondering if it took off. Doc only uses low dose danazol (20mg) which he said he prescribed to help lower my high SHBG. Many swear no drugs lower SHBG but my SHBG went from 56 to 35. Yet when I google Danazol it seems to be a form of anti-E(?)

    Anyway, I should have my blood test results back today or Monday at the latest and I'll post results if anyone is interested.

    I would go back to 1000 EOD. HCG peaks in 36 hours and lasts 72. If your estrogen levels get too high ask for Arimidex. For me it did the trick and drove my test levels even higher.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I would go back to 1000 EOD. HCG peaks in 36 hours and lasts 72.
    Thanks for the info. I'll definitely try that.

    So when you were doing 8,000iu's to 10,000iu's a week you were actually doing 2,500 - 3,000iu's EOD?? Seems like a huge dose EOD.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    Thanks for the info. I'll definitely try that.

    So when you were doing 8,000iu's to 10,000iu's a week you were actually doing 2,500 - 3,000iu's EOD?? Seems like a huge dose EOD.
    No. I've always shot twice per week. Two weeks ago I changed my split to 3 days and like the way it feels.

    I started HCG after a year on test cream alone. I was heavily suppressed, and my balls had atrophied. The high doses worked well for me. Eventually estrogen kicked in. I had to use Arimidex and reduce my dose, but the results were fantastic. I got my balls back.

    BTW. I live in Miami. When I was a kid we used to make a stew called Gator Meat for our tail gate parties. It didn't do us much good. I went to the U of M in the 70s. Back then the canes were so bad they had to give us the tickets to get us to the stadium.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    No. I've always shot twice per week.
    So your doses were even higher! Twice per week back when you did 8,000iu's you were doing 4,000iu's per shot, correct? How did that feel?

    Are you still on the T Cream? Doc wants to put me on that eventually (HCG not getting my T high enough alone) although I read injections are better. I may ask him to reconsider. Blood test results tommorrow.

    Don't worry about Canes. They just pulled a Top 5 recruiting class! (Of course the Gators have had four Top 5 recruiting classes in a row! Urban Meyer is a recruiting fanatic).
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    So your doses were even higher! Twice per week back when you did 8,000iu's you were doing 4,000iu's per shot, correct? How did that feel?

    Are you still on the T Cream? Doc wants to put me on that eventually (HCG not getting my T high enough alone) although I read injections are better. I may ask him to reconsider. Blood test results tommorrow.

    Don't worry about Canes. They just pulled a Top 5 recruiting class! (Of course the Gators have had four Top 5 recruiting classes in a row! Urban Meyer is a recruiting fanatic).
    I felt great on the higher doses. I also feel good on the dose I'm taking now. I don't use testosterone cream anymore, and I don't miss it. For me HCG is the way to go.

    I always draw blood the same day of the week at the same time (Monday 7 AM). Test levels vary during the day and I don't want to skew the results. I think you'll see success at the higher dose you're taking. Give it some time before you include injections. I've done those too. There's nothing better than the feeling of your own if you can make it.
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    any weird neg sides accounted for from the HCG use? besides the conversion to E?
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    Did your libido change for the worse when you stopped the test cream? Most say test cream helps with libido and ED?

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    No. I've always shot twice per week. Two weeks ago I changed my split to 3 days and like the way it feels.

    I started HCG after a year on test cream alone. I was heavily suppressed, and my balls had atrophied. The high doses worked well for me. Eventually estrogen kicked in. I had to use Arimidex and reduce my dose, but the results were fantastic. I got my balls back.

    BTW. I live in Miami. When I was a kid we used to make a stew called Gator Meat for our tail gate parties. It didn't do us much good. I went to the U of M in the 70s. Back then the canes were so bad they had to give us the tickets to get us to the stadium.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    any weird neg sides accounted for from the HCG use? besides the conversion to E?
    HCG took my TT from 300's to damn near 700 in 30 days with only the slightest increase in E.
    Sides were all positive IMO.
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    Colkurtz, another question: did your DHT get out of whack on the cream to the point of hair loss??

    Also, is there any reason for your injecting HCG at night versus morning?
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    Quote Originally Posted by professorJohn View Post
    Did your libido change for the worse when you stopped the test cream? Most say test cream helps with libido and ED?
    When I stopped the cream my total went from 1711 to 97 which is far below my baseline, so of course libido was an issue. However, my libido was much stronger on HCG alone then it ever was on the cream.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    Colkurtz, another question: did your DHT get out of whack on the cream to the point of hair loss??

    Also, is there any reason for your injecting HCG at night versus morning?
    My DHT level was scary! I think my doctor told me to inject at night. It was a while ago. I'm not sure what the benefit is, but I've always done it that way and like to be consistent.
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    How long would say it took, from the time stopping the cream and starting HCG, for your libido to return? Also, anybody know if HCG has any negative effects on prostate like testosterone arguably may?

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    When I stopped the cream my total went from 1711 to 97 which is far below my baseline, so of course libido was an issue. However, my libido was much stronger on HCG alone then it ever was on the cream.
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    Quote Originally Posted by professorJohn View Post
    How long would say it took, from the time stopping the cream and starting HCG, for your libido to return? Also, anybody know if HCG has any negative effects on prostate like testosterone arguably may?
    I don't recall exactly; it was a few years ago. I would say that after a few weeks I started feeling better and really noticed a difference after a month. 6 to 8 weeks after the treatment my total test was at 1199. Trust me...that feels a lot better than 97.

    I've read that HCG inhibits cancer cells in the prostate. However, if not in check estrogen levels will increase, and that may not be good for your prostate.
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    I may have missed this in one of your previous posts, however, what caused you to want to stop the testosterone and go solely with HCH? Thanks


    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I don't recall exactly; it was a few years ago. I would say that after a few weeks I started feeling better and really noticed a difference after a month. 6 to 8 weeks after the treatment my total test was at 1199. Trust me...that feels a lot better than 97.

    I've read that HCG inhibits cancer cells in the prostate. However, if not in check estrogen levels will increase, and that may not be good for your prostate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by professorJohn View Post
    I may have missed this in one of your previous posts, however, what caused you to want to stop the testosterone and go solely with HCH? Thanks

    On the cream my DHT and estrogen were out of control and my nuts shrunk. I asked my doc at the time if I should cycle off, use Arimidex and or HCG. He told me not to worry. I got a new doctor. He told me that I might respond to HCG and not need testosterone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    On the cream my DHT and estrogen were out of control and my nuts shrunk.
    How long were you on the cream? Did you have hair loss issues?

    I agree with you - Arimidex/Liquidex would have helped with the E, and most good prostate supps with Saw Palmetto can help with the DHT - within reason. Nizoral shampoo can also help with DHT caused hair loss.

    Many here prefer T injections but the cream/gel is still popular. I understand the cream/gel actually helps more with libido but the injections don't raise DHT or E as much. Apparently it has to do with the cream/gels aromatizing more through the skin.

    I don't do either but in case HCG doesn't get me "all the way there" I'm trying to measure the pluses and minuses of each. I envy Colkurtz who got such a dramatic boost from HCG alone. I don't think I have ever read about someone getting such a huge increase in T on just HCG.

    Colkurtz, I may have missed this but WHERE do you inject. I do side of stomach sub-Q.
  

  
 

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