Changing from Androgel to HCG question

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    Changing from Androgel to HCG question


    After nine or ten months on Androgel, the family jewels have gone into remission. I knew this would happen, but the other improvements from Androgel were to important to neglect or refuse. Meanwhile this was a frequent discussion issue with my doc along with promises by my doctor to do some research from folks who know more about this. I think mostly he asked Solvay reps, who didn't answer questions honestly.

    Along with this, my total-t went high, just above high lab limits at labcorp. Charts for testim and androgel say this can't happen ( >1000 total-t) , but the lab more recently matches results from six months ago. This time, there was absolutely no androgel on the blood draw site. Labcorp patient neglect caused this draw to take five hours, so the draw wasn't until after 4PM. It took many emails and phone calls followed by a twenty-five mile trip to their center just to get my own copy of results. This is not the first time with this negligent conduct. I don't have anything good to say about Labcorp, so maybe folks will explain why I should visit them again in the future.

    Free-t was middle of the range. I can post results later on. For a brief time of Androgel use, morning wood which was missing for many years, returned. Soon morning wood was again gone after a short time of Androgel treatment, 4 pumps. I had no problems with libido or ED while suffering from low-t prior to treatment. Seven days in a week meant at least seven home runs while at bat.

    Mostly symtoms there were fatigue, pain and confusion. Mabye there was some lack of motivation and depression mixed in the puzzle. At the onset of treatment with Androgel, free-t was afinally okay but not great. Estradiol has been between 20 and 30. Libido flagged promptly after Androgel and at times chronic pain brought closure to relation attempts before conclusion.

    At nine months of Androgel replacement, half of testicular volume is gone, along with half of libido and delayed performance. The main remaining improvement with treatment was reduction in chronic pain and less confusion. Anger and impatience seems to have replaced the confusion. At times this causes me problems.

    I found a urologist who would prescribe HCG. I'm switching over right now. Lab tests prove I am secondary. There isn't any doubt. Causes for axis failure include diabetes and pain medications, mainly oxycontin at low doses. Chronic illness layers on top of this confounding mess.

    I wanted to know if there is some tapering from Androgel appropriate while making the change.

    I also wanted to know if 500 units HCG (Novarel) EOD is too much. I read that dose is at the upper end. I started of at 250 for two consecutive days while slipping Androgel. Yesterday, I felt so horrible, I applied one pump of androgel and that did seem to make a difference a few hours later.

    I figure at the end of this experiment, I think that HCG with some Androgel will be needed. E2 was at 20 with libido issues at the third month of Androgel. Now at nine months estradiol is at 30 and issues are about the same or maybe worse.

    I decreased Androgel from four pumps to three while waiting for the pharmacy to fill my new prescription for Novarel. Sleep was promptly disrupted the next day with morning wood until I got up. It seems the range is pretty specific, at least for me.

    At the beginning of this journey, 25 or 50 mg of clomid would caue morning wood. More recently, 50 mg caused no change.

    Maybe some guys can post some ideas. I need some knee weakening nookie again. :chick:

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    You will never get where you want to be with HCG alone. HCG can be used to offset the testicular shrinkage.

    In reality, you should be taking all three. Estrogen blocker, HCG, and TRT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bem9127 View Post
    You will never get where you want to be with HCG alone. HCG can be used to offset the testicular shrinkage.

    In reality, you should be taking all three. Estrogen blocker, HCG, and TRT.

    That's what I was thinking too. Testes are firmer and larger today on third dose of HCG. I figure once they are back to normal, it will be time to get some labs, add Androgel back in, and find out what levels are reached with the combination.

    Is 500 units EOD too much? I read mostly dosing of 250 EOD, but somewhere I read "not more than 500" was an upper limit. Is there any reason to dose every other day instead of half the dose every day, other than fewer needles?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiredOldFart View Post
    That's what I was thinking too. Testes are firmer and larger today on third dose of HCG. I figure once they are back to normal, it will be time to get some labs, add Androgel back in, and find out what levels are reached with the combination.

    Is 500 units EOD too much? I read mostly dosing of 250 EOD, but somewhere I read "not more than 500" was an upper limit. Is there any reason to dose every other day instead of half the dose every day, other than fewer needles?
    Yea, you probably read it here (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-...ocol-john.html) (Dr. John)

    Based on the research, it appears that 500 units is the most you should take.

    A buddy of mine takes 500 units 3 times per week with 150 mg of testosterone. His total T is 850+ with no testicle shrinkage. He is almost 40 and feels like superman.

    He also takes arimidex for E2 control
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    Quote Originally Posted by bem9127 View Post

    A buddy of mine takes 500 units 3 times per week with 150 mg of testosterone. His total T is 850+ with no testicle shrinkage. He is almost 40 and feels like superman.

    He also takes arimidex for E2 control
    bem,

    do you know what kind of T (cyp, E) he takes? I am probably making the move to shots soon.

    Also, how long has he been on this regimen?

    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    bem,

    do you know what kind of T (cyp, E) he takes? I am probably making the move to shots soon.

    Also, how long has he been on this regimen?

    Thanks
    Enanthate

    He has been on the program 11 weeks
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    Quote Originally Posted by bem9127 View Post
    You will never get where you want to be with HCG alone. HCG can be used to offset the testicular shrinkage.

    In reality, you should be taking all three. Estrogen blocker, HCG, and TRT.
    Yep.

    Stick with androgel, the same amount you have been using all along.

    Use hcG 250Iu E3d. This is Dr Johns exact protocol.

    Use AI after bloodwork on hcG for at least 4 weeks. You might have a slightly increased E2 level from hcG.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Yep.

    Stick with androgel, the same amount you have been using all along.

    Use hcG 250Iu E3d. This is Dr Johns exact protocol.

    Use AI after bloodwork on hcG for at least 4 weeks. You might have a slightly increased E2 level from hcG.
    So plymouth, after tesotsterone, the second step is hCG and then an AI?

    What if E2 is elevated after the first retest post TRT?

    How long before one's HPT starts to shut down?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    So plymouth, after tesotsterone, the second step is hCG and then an AI?

    What if E2 is elevated after the first retest post TRT?

    How long before one's HPT starts to shut down?
    Yep - AI is administered, if needed, after T has already been used for 4 weeks.

    AI and hcG is added in at same time. The thought process is as long as your only using hcg 250IU E3D E2 won't go up much.

    hcG and T together are NEVER(or at least shouldn't be) given right off the bat because it would error that first post T test - so you wouldn't know exactly how T is working independ from everything else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Yep.

    Stick with androgel, the same amount you have been using all along.

    Use hcG 250Iu E3d. This is Dr Johns exact protocol.

    Use AI after bloodwork on hcG for at least 4 weeks. You might have a slightly increased E2 level from hcG.
    The good doctor has me taking 250 IU of HCG two day, and one day prior to my test cyp shot. Estrogen was a little high so I am taking half an Arimidex pill the day of test cyp, and the other half 3 days later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Yep - AI is administered, if needed, after T has already been used for 4 weeks.
    "If needed" would be approximately what range?

    I was 35 (0 - 52) before beginning androgel.

    And what would the dosing be? How many mg per how many days?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bem9127 View Post
    Yea, you probably read it here (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-...ocol-john.html) (Dr. John)

    Based on the research, it appears that 500 units is the most you should take.
    Yes, that's where I read the limit of 500. That's in addition to reading discussions in the forums here for many months. I wanted to know if this amount is okay or excessive for a starting dose.

    I was on four pumps androgel before changing to HCG. My first few months on Androgel I had reduction in fatigue, reduction of brain fog and no problems with libido. Libido was essentially unchanged. The improvements diminished through time while Libido failed.

    Prior to taking androgel, I didn't have problems with libido in spite of low-t and low free-t. Starting Androgel caused morning wood to return which had been gone for many years. That effect soon vanished after two or three months. Total t recently came back over 1000 with free-t only around mid-range. Dropping to 3 pumps androgel, while waiting for the pharmacy to order Novarel, immediately returned morning wood. That effect was immediate, next day. Current plan is to go with HCG only for a month or two and see where that sets my levels. I figure Androgel will need to be added back in. E2 is only 30 or so with four pumps Androgel. I suspect that is too high for me, though it seems in the range folks talk about here. E2 was only 20 when libido started failing on Androgel. I guess everyone has a range their body prefers.

    Family jewels have markedly restored size and firmness in just a week of HCG. They seem to be getting back to normal. I've added an occasional one pump of Androgel on a few days when I felt poorly and it helped.

    With new serms, sarms etc around the corner such as Androxal, I don't view monotherapy of t replacement as ideal management for secondary hypogonadism. I think it could limit one's future treatment options from consequential changes and atrophy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    "If needed" would be approximately what range?

    I was 35 (0 - 52) before beginning androgel.

    And what would the dosing be? How many mg per how many days?
    Ideally, you ALWAYS want E2 under 30.

    I would shoot for a range of 17 - 25

    However, your beginning E2 number means nothing.

    What your E2 number after 4 weeks of T gel is what matters.

    And what is that number?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiredOldFart View Post
    Yes, that's where I read the limit of 500. That's in addition to reading discussions in the forums here for many months. I wanted to know if this amount is okay or excessive for a starting dose.

    I was on four pumps androgel before changing to HCG. My first few months on Androgel I had reduction in fatigue, reduction of brain fog and no problems with libido. Libido was essentially unchanged. The improvements diminished through time while Libido failed.

    Prior to taking androgel, I didn't have problems with libido in spite of low-t and low free-t. Starting Androgel caused morning wood to return which had been gone for many years. That effect soon vanished after two or three months. Total t recently came back over 1000 with free-t only around mid-range. Dropping to 3 pumps androgel, while waiting for the pharmacy to order Novarel, immediately returned morning wood. That effect was immediate, next day. Current plan is to go with HCG only for a month or two and see where that sets my levels. I figure Androgel will need to be added back in. E2 is only 30 or so with four pumps Androgel. I suspect that is too high for me, though it seems in the range folks talk about here. E2 was only 20 when libido started failing on Androgel. I guess everyone has a range their body prefers.

    Family jewels have markedly restored size and firmness in just a week of HCG. They seem to be getting back to normal. I've added an occasional one pump of Androgel on a few days when I felt poorly and it helped.

    With new serms, sarms etc around the corner such as Androxal, I don't view monotherapy of t replacement as ideal management for secondary hypogonadism. I think it could limit one's future treatment options from consequential changes and atrophy.
    I do not understand all this confusion regarding hcG numbers.

    Every study has pointed out that 250Iu is the ceiling.

    Why go against study?

    dose that 2 times a week or E3D. This isn't rocket science

    Why did you "change" to hcg? Was this yours or your Dr's idea? They are both to be used in conjunction together.

    You lost effectiveness on androgel because E2 eventually went to high. You want that number 17 - 25, preferably closer to the lower end of 17.

    "Total t recently came back over 1000 with free-t only around mid-range. Dropping to 3 pumps androgel" - this is E2 again, chopping away at Ft. High TT and so so Ft is always a sign of high E2, or to high of an E2 number for you. Sacrificing T to get less E2 is not the route you want.

    And Im not hanging any hopes on androxal
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Ideally, you ALWAYS want E2 under 30.

    I would shoot for a range of 17 - 25

    However, your beginning E2 number means nothing.

    What your E2 number after 4 weeks of T gel is what matters.

    And what is that number?
    I'll let you know when I get there. I have been on the androgel for a little less than two weeks but am contemplating seeing him for shots before getting my labs drawn.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    I'll let you know when I get there. I have been on the androgel for a little less than two weeks but am contemplating seeing him for shots before getting my labs drawn.
    The gels are alot of work. I don't seem to mind them(I use dermacrine) but i can see the hassel.

    Yea, no point in having to pay for new BW again and again.....Get the shots if thats the route you want.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    I do not understand all this confusion regarding hcG numbers.

    Every study has pointed out that 250Iu is the ceiling.

    Why go against study?

    dose that 2 times a week or E3D. This isn't rocket science

    Why did you "change" to hcg? Was this yours or your Dr's idea? They are both to be used in conjunction together.

    You lost effectiveness on androgel because E2 eventually went to high. You want that number 17 - 25, preferably closer to the lower end of 17.

    "Total t recently came back over 1000 with free-t only around mid-range. Dropping to 3 pumps androgel" - this is E2 again, chopping away at Ft. High TT and so so Ft is always a sign of high E2, or to high of an E2 number for you. Sacrificing T to get less E2 is not the route you want.

    And Im not hanging any hopes on androxal
    Would you cite some studies that show 250 units as a ceiling? I've searched PubMed and I don't find any studies supporting that conclusion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Yea, no point in having to pay for new BW again and again.....Get the shots if thats the route you want.
    My biggest concern is DHT (hair) with the gels, although I have heard not to worry, test is inaccurate, etc...
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    "If needed" would be approximately what range?

    I was 35 (0 - 52) before beginning androgel.

    And what would the dosing be? How many mg per how many days?

    Before the A-Dex you should try supplementing with Zinc, Dim or Myomin ... I used myomin (not known on this board) my e was never above 32 while taking 120mg weekly of test cyp.
    I would always look for a natural alternative to a chemical one.
    JMPO
  

  
 

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