HCG vs Clomid for TRT

[Pace2]

I just got back from the Urologist to discuss going back on TRT. As a reminder, I was on Androgel, which made me infertile, went off Androgel, and now my wife is pregant but I feel like crap. Total T is now only 266, 9 months after stopping androgel.

He suggested, and I concur, not to start T replacement yet, until my wife is further along on the pregnancy, but agreed that clomid or HCG would be a good start to at least getting the levels up again. Bioavailable T test is being done.

My question is: He strongly prefers clomid at 25 mg because he says it has less side effects and costs alot less. He was less comfortable with HCG. From reading the boards here, it certainly seems like the consensus is HCG. Why? I think he will do what I prefer, but I need reasons.

[Pace2]

Jansz, plymouth city any help here?

[JanSz]

I just got back from the Urologist to discuss going back on TRT. As a reminder, I was on Androgel, which made me infertile, went off Androgel, and now my wife is pregant but I feel like crap. Total T is now only 266, 9 months after stopping androgel.

He suggested, and I concur, not to start T replacement yet, until my wife is further along on the pregnancy, but agreed that clomid or HCG would be a good start to at least getting the levels up again. Bioavailable T test is being done.

My question is: He strongly prefers clomid at 25 mg because he says it has less side effects and costs alot less. He was less comfortable with HCG. From reading the boards here, it certainly seems like the consensus is HCG. Why? I think he will do what I prefer, but I need reasons.

Gray area.
Clomid may be good, but people fear side effects, ie vison problems.
Supposedly the amount of Clomid used in your case may be considered a small ( ie. hopefully no side effects).

I have one member PM-ing me, dr Shippen is rather succesfully using Clomid to raise his TotalT, and he did not complained about vission problems. His FreeT=200, (envy).

We here, are usually use HCG to keep testicles size and production.
You should also be fertile while on HCG.
In case of fertility problem while on HCG, HMG could be added 75iu/day (big $$$).
===================
You do not need to stop Androgel for fertility reasons.
Just add HCG.
250iu/E2D every other day.
===================
If you go Clomid route, there is a chance that you may stay on Clomid (forewer) and no Androgel or other external T.

[corndog]

Is HcG the only thing that keeps you balls working and from shrinking?

[plymouth city]

Is HcG the only thing that keeps you balls working and from shrinking?

I am not a fan of clomid.

Clomid is a stone age way to keep testical production during a cycle/HRT.

hcG is a much more effective way.

To Pace -
Age?
Bloodwork pre androgel?

[corndog]

I realise HcG is the way to go but difficult getting Dr. to buy into this. I understand I can get HcG but I am not a big fan of self medicating.

As both you and JanSz had replied to many of my postings I was just looking for a alternative to HcG until the time comes where I get my Dr. on board. I just switched Dr. because my previous ones (family practice and urologist) were not aggressive with dealing with my low test, 171. Also, it took years to convince my Dr. to switch me to Armour thus I switched to a new Dr.

He is just trying to solve one issue at a time and I hope will get to the point of a complete TRT program. Right now he is glad my sex life has gettin better and my depression is better but dam I am mean and angry all the time.

[plymouth city]

Corn
post complete BW and what drugs you are currently on.

The best OTC source for LH would be resveratrol.

[corndog]

MEDS

Test-e 100mg/e3d
Armour 2g
Lamictal 300mg (bi-polar)
Wellbutrin 200mg (depression)
Lisinopril 20mg (high BP)
Klonopin .2mg (help with sleeping)
Aspirin 325mg (High hemoglobin)

BIO TEST 899 (was 171 in july)
FREE T 34.9 (was 7.1 is july)
DHT - NEVER TESTED
E2 66
SHGB 22.8
PROLATIN (6.76 in july, not tested last time)
TSH .89
T4 .90
T3 (just had BT, will have # friday) Dr. said all good, left med as is
Triglyserides 120
HDL 49
LDL 138
CHD RISK 4.3
ALBIMUM 4.5
PSA .31
FSH .21
LH .20
WBC 6.10
RBC 5.4
HGB 17.8 (Just had phlebotomy done, I get this test every 2 weeks
HCT 51.9
MCV 96
MCHC 34.2
RDW 14.2
PLT 233
PMN 3.8
LYM 1.40
MONO .5
EOS .3

[JanSz]

MEDS

Test-e 100mg/e3d
Armour 2g
Lamictal 300mg (bi-polar)
Wellbutrin 200mg (depression)
Lisinopril 20mg (high BP)
Klonopin .2mg (help with sleeping)
Aspirin 325mg (High hemoglobin)

BIO TEST 899 (was 171 in july)
FREE T 34.9 (was 7.1 is july)
DHT - NEVER TESTED
E2 66
SHGB 22.8
PROLATIN (6.76 in july, not tested last time)
TSH .89
T4 .90
T3 (just had BT, will have # friday) Dr. said all good, left med as is
Triglyserides 120
HDL 49
LDL 138
CHD RISK 4.3
ALBIMUM 4.5
PSA .31
FSH .21
LH .20
WBC 6.10
RBC 5.4
HGB 17.8 (Just had phlebotomy done, I get this test every 2 weeks
HCT 51.9
MCV 96
MCHC 34.2
RDW 14.2
PLT 233
PMN 3.8
LYM 1.40
MONO .5
EOS .3

Repost or edit your test results, post name, value, units, range, name of laboratory.

Test-e 100mg/e3d
are you doing shots, one shot every three days, each shot size 100mg ???
or
100mg/week on E3D schedule??

Or something else.

Get
FreeT3
FreeT4
Total Testosterone

[corndog]

total test 899ng/dl (300 - 1200)
free test 34.7pg/ml (8/7 - 25)e
Dont have the units for thyroid. The results shown didnt include T3 or reverse t3. I had a complete panel done and I get a copy of the numbers tomorrow.

TSH .89 .34 - 5.6) units I will look up
T4 .90 (.6 - 1.1)
T3 not test at this time,

I take 100mg of test-e per week divied into E3D. So some weeks I actualy have 3 shots and the next usually works out to only 2 shots that week. I divided the 100mg/week into e3d.

My labs are taken a my local hospital.

[Pace2]

Thanks for the help.

I'm 40 years old--I don't have a copy of the pre-androgel blood tests, but I believe total T was in the 300's, LH was low, FSH was okay, Estrogen was ok. I was treated for low thyroid with synthroid, but it really made no change in levels. I'm seeing a new doctor who is very knowledgeable but is only testing for total test and free test, although we had baselines on LH and FSH before. What other blood tests (within reason--I don't want to freak him out) should I ask for? Just Dr. John's recommendations?

[JanSz]

Thanks for the help.

I'm 40 years old--I don't have a copy of the pre-androgel blood tests, but I believe total T was in the 300's, LH was low, FSH was okay, Estrogen was ok. I was treated for low thyroid with synthroid, but it really made no change in levels. I'm seeing a new doctor who is very knowledgeable but is only testing for total test and free test, although we had baselines on LH and FSH before. What other blood tests (within reason--I don't want to freak him out) should I ask for? Just Dr. John's recommendations?

The more you know the better help you can get.

Post #44
Jan's BloodTest April13/2007

[MarkLA]

Corn
post complete BW and what drugs you are currently on.

The best OTC source for LH would be resveratrol.

Plymouth, I'm interested in how resveratrol works with LH. I found this article. Do you have more?

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/4/757

Thanks,
Mark

[plymouth city]

"Lamictal 300mg (bi-polar)
Wellbutrin 200mg (depression)
Lisinopril 20mg (high BP)
Klonopin .2mg (help with sleeping)"

Its no wonder you ended up on TRT.

All 4 of those drugs above, with lamictal and klonopin in particular, wreck havoc on the androgenic hormones of the body.

I speculate klonopin may also blunt GH release during sleep - as pretty much all prescription sleep aids do this, as a rule

[kieroneil]

I am not a fan of clomid.

Clomid is a stone age way to keep testical production during a cycle/HRT.

hcG is a much more effective way.

Interesting. My doctor has me on 51mg of Clomid AND HCG in my off-cycle.

Is he just covering all the bases?

[corndog]

I'm gonna switch to benedril i think for sleep. One of the problems I have with head meds is that you take one pill for depression and it gives you sides so you need another. It a never ending cycle.

Example, Klonopin is great for relaxing you and in my case getting my brain to slow down and relax so I can sleep. Get this, one of its side effects. Can cause depression

[plymouth city]

Interesting. My doctor has me on 51mg of Clomid AND HCG in my off-cycle.

Is he just covering all the bases?

Thats a whopping dose of clomid.

I don't see any reason why one would ever need to go over 25mg.

[plymouth city]

"Lamictal 300mg (bi-polar)
Wellbutrin 200mg (depression)
Lisinopril 20mg (high BP)
Klonopin .2mg (help with sleeping)"

Its no wonder you ended up on TRT.

All 4 of those drugs above, with lamictal and klonopin in particular, wreck havoc on the androgenic hormones of the body.

I speculate klonopin may also blunt GH release during sleep - as pretty much all prescription sleep aids do this, as a rule

Some more to add.

Did a little more research on lisinopril via lef and other medical textbooks.

Like all BP meds, they are especially harsh on the liver. They are known to clog up the liver. Guess what else does this? Aspirin

Guess what happens to your liver? It loses its ability to clear estrogen from the body.

BP meds and aspirin = estrogenic. The facts are pretty clear.

I have noticed your E2 level is pretty bad.

[rick055]

I'm gonna switch to benedril i think for sleep.

corndog, I'd be interested to hear what others have to say about it's safety, but I just started taking melatonin (3 mg) at night (in addition to my ZMA) to help sleep and it's unreal.

It almost feels like a mild xanax to me and the worst "side effect" I've had is a really mild headache in the morning (it's almost not even a real headache, if that makes sense) which goes away after my first cup of java.

I usually toss and turn and I now wake up mostly not even remembering sleeping.

Might be worth a shot.

As far as benadryl goes, it can sure put you to sleep, but it left me a little groggy in the a.m., although it's not the worst side in the world, either.

Hydroxyzine, another antihistamine, might be something to look at as well since it can help anxiety, too.

Good luck and hang in there!!!

[bem9127]

I'm gonna switch to benedril i think for sleep. One of the problems I have with head meds is that you take one pill for depression and it gives you sides so you need another. It a never ending cycle.

Example, Klonopin is great for relaxing you and in my case getting my brain to slow down and relax so I can sleep. Get this, one of its side effects. Can cause depression

Have you ever tried Kava Kava?

Look for something that is at least 40% standardized. KAVIAR® Instant Kava Powder is a good one)

I have a vendor that I've used for 3 years now. If you want this information feel free to send me private mail.

Some people have luck with Valerian Root.

I prefer Kava Kava and Melatonin combination.

Another combination to try is Malatonin and Tryptophan.

All readily available OTC.