Androgel vs Compounded

[AnotherOldGuy]

It looks like without a prescription, the costs are:

Androgel 1% - 2 bottles (30 day supply) = $433

Compounded 5% (month) = $30

I believe this results in the same dosing.

I understand big business. But, wow - what a difference.

What is Solvay doing so differently than a compounder?

 

[anyman]

Most drug companies are extremely greedy and rely on a very expensive sales force.

Ever wonder who pays for all that drug related odds and ends you see at your doctor's office? Who do you think pays for all those commercials? We all do.

I know a few drug company reps. You wouldn't believe the BS they tell doctors and the pressure to sell.

My guess is that Solvay has a patent on the packaging or something. Add in the fact that T is a controlled substance of sorts with a captive audience desperately in need of it and you see what we have here.

 

[JanSz]

It looks like without a prescription, the costs are:

Androgel 1% - 2 bottles (30 day supply) = $433

Compounded 5% (month) = $30

I believe this results in the same dosing.

I understand big business. But, wow - what a difference.

What is Solvay doing so differently than a compounder?

Do not forget compounded Testosterone cypionate, 200mg/mL
10mL $47.5
30mL 99.75
assuming 140mg/week dose

47.5/(2000/140*7/30)=$14.25/month
99.75/(6000/140*7/30)=$9.975/month

plus cost of syringes, about $20 for 100

 

[cpeil2]

My guess is that Solvay has a patent on the packaging or something. Add in the fact that T is a controlled substance of sorts with a captive audience desperately in need of it and you see what we have here.

Or they might have a patent on the formulation. They can't patent testosterone per se, because it is a naturally occuring substance, but they could have patented a particular formulation of it.

I would think that the esters could have been patented because, as far as I know, they are not naturally-occuring. But most of them have been around for so long that the patents have probably expired.

 

[anyman]

Ancillary questions re: what works/doesn't work and why:

I note that 1% Androgel doesn't always work for many guys. They just don't get a high enough T level. It didn't do much for me last winter when I tried it before seeking help beyond the limited knowledge the urologist I was seeing possessed. Only went up maybe 100 points.

Here are my questions:

1) Why does this happen? Why do some guys not respond to it?

2) Since many compunded creams are 5%, not 1% like Androgel, could a better result be expected?

Thoughts? Comments?

 

[RPHMark]

It looks like without a prescription, the costs are:

Androgel 1% - 2 bottles (30 day supply) = $433

Compounded 5% (month) = $30

I believe this results in the same dosing.

I understand big business. But, wow - what a difference.

What is Solvay doing so differently than a compounder?

Short answer "making alot more money". I am compounding pharmacist, and there is nothing special about their formulation, it is a very simple gel. Compounders generally try to provide a product at a fair price that compensates us for our time and costs involved. Drug companies make some of the largest profits by percentage of any business around. They do have high overhead costs to get a product to market, but even so they often make profits on individual products of 500 to 1000% and more (definetly more is this case).

 

[RPHMark]

I note that 1% Androgel doesn't always work for many guys. They just don't get a high enough T level. It didn't do much for me last winter when I tried it before seeking help beyond the limited knowledge the urologist I was seeing possessed. Only went up maybe 100 points.

Here are my questions:

1) Why does this happen? Why do some guys not respond to it?

2) Since many compunded creams are 5%, not 1% like Androgel, could a better result be expected?

Thoughts? Comments?

Hard to say, some people simply don't respond well to topicals. Sometimes thyroid problems are linked with poor absorbtion, but other times it just does not work well. As for one vs. another, I don't think you can predict if the cream will neccessarily work better than gel, but it's probably worth trying.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

there is nothing special about their formulation, it is a very simple gel. Compounders generally try to provide a product at a fair price that compensates us for our time and costs involved.

Its nice to hear from someone in "the trade". Thanks Mark. I suspected all of the above - nice to have validation.

The reason I asked this - I seem to recall some posts where people did better on Androgel than compounded.

Also seeing alot of posts of people doing better injecting than gels - but I'm beginning to believe, that like me, those on gels tend not to inject hcg - if you are already injecting T, then it seems to reason that another injection is no big deal. I read alot from PlyCity indicating this is the case. (Just trying to improve my personal knowledge base)

 

[RichTan]

Saving money (for everybody)

Short answer "making alot more money"

I'm all for saving money. I look forward to using compounders; but,to be fair the drug companies are not making enough profit. When it costs 800,000,000.00 dollars to get FDA approval of an average new drug, that can make quite a dent in profits. Even after release of the highly tested product, the system exposes drug companies to being sued for almost any reason. Would you want to start a drug company?

 

[anyman]

Are you serious?

..... but,to be fair the drug companies are not making enough profit. When it costs 800,000,000.00 dollars to get FDA approval of an average new drug, that can make quite a dent in profits. Even after release of the highly tested product, the system exposes drug companies to being sued for almost any reason. Would you want to start a drug company?

Are you serious? The drug companies make HUGE profits. Perhaps if they didn't spend billions on huge sales forces with the attendant BS, marketing and worse they'd have a profit. I know a few drug reps and the reality is frightening.

As for lawsuits--hardly. Don't believe the media. The reality is far different.

 

[JanSz]

I'm all for saving money. I look forward to using compounders; but,to be fair the drug companies are not making enough profit. When it costs 800,000,000.00 dollars to get FDA approval of an average new drug, that can make quite a dent in profits. Even after release of the highly tested product, the system exposes drug companies to being sued for almost any reason. Would you want to start a drug company?

I think USA got it self in the corner in few places.
I would blame peoples gulligibility and lawyers exploiting it.

Get rid of lawyers.

You will be able to build

Nuclear Power Plants
Nuclear waste storage facilities
Oil refineries
Drill for oil
Get much less expensive medicines
few major others and lots of small ones

 

[RPHMark]

I'm all for saving money. I look forward to using compounders; but,to be fair the drug companies are not making enough profit. When it costs 800,000,000.00 dollars to get FDA approval of an average new drug, that can make quite a dent in profits. Even after release of the highly tested product, the system exposes drug companies to being sued for almost any reason. Would you want to start a drug company?

Sorry, but you're just way off here. Drug companies score huge profits even after accounting for every expense they possibly can, including research on drugs that never make to market and lawsuits and massive CEO salaries. Would I want to start one? You're darn right. If I thought I had the capital and the right research direction I would love to. It is a sort of gambler's business, but there are so many cases where they have sure thing drugs that are very slight variations on their already popular products that make up for any risk.

 

[RichTan]

If more people really were able to start drug companies then profits couldn't be so high. Think about it!

 

[anyman]

Lawyers aren't the problem. Don't fall for the big companies' lies

Get rid of lawyers.

You will be able to build

Nuclear Power Plants
Nuclear waste storage facilities
Oil refineries
Drill for oil
Get much less expensive medicines
few major others and lots of small ones

Without lawyers you'd have corporations screwing us much, much more. You'd see even more deadly chemicals in the things we eat and drink. You'd see even more dangerous products, with "caveal emptor" becoming the rule and not the exception.

Remember the Pinto? Defective Firestone tires? How many of us would like to sue whoever made/makes Finistaride/Propecia for taking away our manhood?

Don't blame the lawyers and the media BS. Big companies would LOVE for you to blame them as such would allow them to continue to screw us with impunity. Lawyers give us, the regular guys, a fighting chance. Is the system perfect? Hardly. But, it beats having no recourse whatsoever and forever being at the mercy of the rich and powerful. We have places and Gov'ts without lawyers. They are called totalitarian states. They tell you what you want and how much you'll like it. I'll pass.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Don't get me going on lawyers........I just got thru with a prime example - just went after a guy who embezzeled a ton of money - well not a ton, but into the mid 6 figures - from an employee owned company. Yeah, we won - big deal - all the award, and then some went to pay legal fees.

....but we were rightous.

Don't even go defending the legal profession to me.......they know how to milk a case.

I did, however, get an education, and won't make the same mistakes again.

 

[anyman]

Sounds like more of a criminal case than a civil one (m)

Don't get me going on lawyers........I just got thru with a prime example - just went after a guy who embezzeled a ton of money - well not a ton, but into the mid 6 figures - from an employee owned company. Yeah, we won - big deal - all the award, and then some went to pay legal fees.

....but we were rightous.

Don't even go defending the legal profession to me.......they know how to milk a case.

I did, however, get an education, and won't make the same mistakes again.

Sounds like a criminal matter if it's truly embezzlement. Usually restitution is a part of any sentence or plea arrangement. It should be. Mid 6 figures is to me a "ton" of money! Well, it's at least quite a bit. 500K would make a difference in my life. In the criminal context the only lawyers you would deal with is the prosecutor's office.

The law is like any profession. There are good, bad and so-so practitioners. Look at us here. We wouldn't be on this board and ones like it if doctors, the drug companies and the medical profession in general was able and willing to help us and put our interests first.

 

[RoadBlocK]

Hard to say, some people simply don't respond well to topicals. Sometimes thyroid problems are linked with poor absorbtion, but other times it just does not work well. As for one vs. another, I don't think you can predict if the cream will neccessarily work better than gel, but it's probably worth trying.

Any chance anyone might have a link where this is spelled out, I read it over and over on the boards, but would like to get something I can use to verify this.

 

[JanSz]

Without lawyers you'd have corporations screwing us much, much more. You'd see even more deadly chemicals in the things we eat and drink. You'd see even more dangerous products, with "caveal emptor" becoming the rule and not the exception.

Remember the Pinto? Defective Firestone tires? How many of us would like to sue whoever made/makes Finistaride/Propecia for taking away our manhood?

Don't blame the lawyers and the media BS. Big companies would LOVE for you to blame them as such would allow them to continue to screw us with impunity. Lawyers give us, the regular guys, a fighting chance. Is the system perfect? Hardly. But, it beats having no recourse whatsoever and forever being at the mercy of the rich and powerful. We have places and Gov'ts without lawyers. They are called totalitarian states. They tell you what you want and how much you'll like it. I'll pass.

BS

We could have had all the power we want (almost free, no meters),
all the gasoline we want, SUV, Hummers
all the medicine we need

who said (except Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul) that you have to supply free medicine to all dieing all around the world.

but if you want to satisfy all last owl, can't do it.

I think I call this:
peoples gulligibility exploited by lawyers
profitiering on this and gumming up good system.
.
.-------------------------------------------------------
Think about is,
200 millions Americans (more than half of them not willing to work) can't solve problems of 6 billions and growing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My wife's grandma had at habit (hobby, calling, pleasure) feeding priests and nuns in her house at Biskupia Krakow, way back in Poland.
Among them Cardinal Woytyla, latter Pope John Paul.

 

[RichTan]

Question:
How many lawyers does it take to shingle a roof?

Answer:

One!!! If you slice him thin enough.

 

[cpeil2]

.

Get rid of lawyers.

You will be able to build

Nuclear Power Plants
Nuclear waste storage facilities
Oil refineries
Drill for oil . . .

Then thank god for the lawyers!!!

 

[plymouth city]

Then thank god for the lawyers!!!

Amen!

I can't wait to see the automobile die its death and for public transportation to take over.

 

[plymouth city]

Its nice to hear from someone in "the trade". Thanks Mark. I suspected all of the above - nice to have validation.

)

Second that, thanks for all your input Mark!

I was a pharmacy school dropout. I interned at CVS for awile. Decided it wasn't for me and went to business school instead.

 

[JanSz]

Amen!

I can't wait to see the automobile die its death and for public transportation to take over.

There was only one good think about public transportation in Poland that I miss, I loved to squeze thru the bus or tram between large breasted women, specially on hot summer day, can't do that driving SUV.

Next thing you are going to tell me is to think twice when filling my boat with 350 gallons of gasoline going fishing.

Speaking of carbon foot print.

 

[cpeil2]

There was only one good think about public transportation in Poland that I miss, I loved to squeze thru the bus or tram between large breasted women, specially on hot summer day, can't do that driving SUV.

Next thing you are going to tell me is to think twice when filling my boat with 350 gallons of gasoline going fishing.

Speaking of carbon foot print.

If it was me, I would be giving some thought to sailing lessons.

 

[rightship3]

Intellectually honest

I don't want anyone being concerned with how much money I make, and I give the same consideration to everyone else, including corporations. I think we should all strive to be as successful/profitable as we can. To each his own. Don't cast aspersions on someone (person or company) because YOU think THEY are making too much money.

Success fosters innovation and desire to prosper. Highly profitable products and concepts will spawn competition, which ultimately makes a better, cheaper product.

BTW: here are some comparisons for the last fiscal year (profit margins):

Novartis AG 19.6%
Merck 20.5%
Google 27.5%
Pfizer 36%
Apple 13.9%
Exxon Mobile 11%
Genzyme 1.2%
Intuit 16.5%
GE 12.8%

 

[anyman]

Good point. Look no further than "Ewa Sonnet"

There was only one good think about public transportation in Poland that I miss, I loved to squeze thru the bus or tram between large breasted women, specially on hot summer day.

One look at her and most us might be cured!

Just google "Ewa Sonnet" and, well.... wow!:chick:

 

[JanSz]

I don't want anyone being concerned with how much money I make, and I give the same consideration to everyone else, including corporations. I think we should all strive to be as successful/profitable as we can. To each his own. Don't cast aspersions on someone (person or company) because YOU think THEY are making too much money.

Success fosters innovation and desire to prosper. Highly profitable products and concepts will spawn competition, which ultimately makes a better, cheaper product.

BTW: here are some comparisons for the last fiscal year (profit margins):

Novartis AG 19.6%
Merck 20.5%
Google 27.5%
Pfizer 36%
Apple 13.9%
Exxon Mobile 11%
Genzyme 1.2%
Intuit 16.5%
GE 12.8%

Another POV.
Do not compare your self to the Johnses.
Do not envy others having more.
Make a (modest but comfortable) decission on your desired life style and spending goals.
Figure out you matching yearly spending income.
Work as a dog so you have 25x of your yearly income at hand ASAP.
Quit when you have reached this break thru point.
Enjoy the rest of your life, take 4% for your living expenses.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

..might want to look at some companies that benefited from the conflict in Iraq.

But really - I don't take too much stock in those PM's listed. A smartly run company (and drug companies are run smart) will minimize that, because retained earnings are taxed heavily - why give it to Uncle Sam? There is a balance between keeping bottom line profits UP (so stock value goes up) and minimizing taxes.

A smart company knows how to manipulate profit to maximize benefit to the corporation.

 

[JanSz]

One look at her and most us might be cured!

Just google "Ewa Sonnet" and, well.... wow!:chick:

Da man.

Well, I got civilized and left the bus.
Hope I will be able to ride my SUV, motorhomes and a boat and public transportation is only a talk. (Yougo anyone?)

Ewa Sonnet is rather distracting, it is easy to loose sleep over her.
This days I hire Kaja for my dance practises.
I must say Kaja's boobs are no less distracting than Eva's
except that they are 6" away from my eyes.
===========================================
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewa_Sonnet
exceedingly large natural breasts (36EE(F))

 

[rightship3]

Da man.

Well, I got civilized and left the bus.
Hope I will be able to ride my SUV, motorhomes and a boat and public transportation is only a talk. (Yougo anyone?)

Ewa Sonnet is rather distracting, it is easy to loose sleep over her.
This days I hire Kaja for my dance practises.
I must say Kaja's boobs are no less distracting than Eva's
except that they are 6" away from my eyes.
===========================================
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewa_Sonnet
exceedingly large natural breasts (36EE(F))

OMG

 

[RPHMark]

I don't want anyone being concerned with how much money I make, and I give the same consideration to everyone else, including corporations. I think we should all strive to be as successful/profitable as we can. To each his own. Don't cast aspersions on someone (person or company) because YOU think THEY are making too much money.

Success fosters innovation and desire to prosper. Highly profitable products and concepts will spawn competition, which ultimately makes a better, cheaper product.

BTW: here are some comparisons for the last fiscal year (profit margins):

Novartis AG 19.6%
Merck 20.5%
Google 27.5%
Pfizer 36%
Apple 13.9%
Exxon Mobile 11%
Genzyme 1.2%
Intuit 16.5%
GE 12.8%

I'm a businessman too, so I really don't begrudge anyone whatever profit they want to make, particularly when there are options in the marketplace. However drugs really aren't like that. I just don't want to hear from them how high their costs are when their manipulated PM still shows over 20% and a retail pharmacy averages a PM of 2 to 4%. I'll admit it does make you a bit sick to your stomach when the bottle of 90 brand name Zocor that cost you $400 for 8 years or more can now be purchased in a generic for $40 for 500 count (and they still make enough money to fight over which company can get their generic to market fastest).

 

[RichTan]

If your a business man then you know that competition is the main thing that holds down prices. If it were easier to start a drug company than profit margins would go down right? So what stops people from starting drug companies? Could it be too much regulation?

 

[RPHMark]

More likely it's the huge amount of capital necessary (the whole "takes money to make money" thing) I don't at all mean to say it's an easy industry to make a buck in, but if you have the money and a creative researcher then there are boatloads of money to be made. No doubt though that there is a huge amount of regulation on just the layout of a plant alone, not to mention actually trying to get a drug to market.