Pregnenolone

[Hyde12]

I don't understand for what pupose everyone is using this for. Is it for DHT control? Is it for adrenal fatigue? I understand the adrenal fatigue reason, but how does it control DHT? I was reading that it converts to progesterone in females but in males it converts to DHEA and that can convert to testosterone which could convert to DHT. Can someone please clear this up for me?

 

[griffinannie]

FWIW, my doc says he uses it because it "backfills" pathways that can be interrupted by TRT.

 

[hardasnails1973]

FWIW, my doc says he uses it because it "backfills" pathways that can be interrupted by TRT.

Could not have said it better..When hcg is used in TRT it can actually deplete pregenonlone levels

People with thyroid and low cholesterol issues would also benefit greatly from preg

 

[ItsHectic]

I thought HCG would raise pregnenelone levels.
griffinannie you sound like you have 1st hand experience with it, how is pregnenelone cream??

 

[plymouth city]

Pregnenolone is now added in most cutting edge HRT programs like Dr John uses. Pregenelone causes a small rise in progesterone, which helps prevent T to DHT conversion, so with the addition of preg, DHT is kept in check. Pregenelone also fills in metabolic pathways and causes a rise in not just T, but an increase in other androgenic hormones such as the various andros, DHEA and others. Very ingenious.

 

[ItsHectic]

I have read a recent study which linked the hormone responsable for female libido to be DHEA instead of testosterone(or atleast played a role in it along with testosterone), I am suspecting DHEA may play a role in male libido aswell in that case. I asked before but didnt get an answer, has anyone experienced or NOT experienced an increase in libido from pregnenelone or DHEA cream??

 

[plymouth city]

I have read a recent study which linked the hormone responsable for female libido to be DHEA instead of testosterone(or atleast played a role in it along with testosterone), I am suspecting DHEA may play a role in male libido aswell in that case. I asked before but didnt get an answer, has anyone experienced or NOT experienced an increase in libido from pregnenelone or DHEA cream??

Testosterone is the reason for this.

Women have a better ability than men to break down DHEA into testosterone. They are getting a better testosterone response.

 

[ItsHectic]

Testosterone is the reason for this.

Women have a better ability than men to break down DHEA into testosterone. They are getting a better testosterone response.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/9568.php

However this study has shown low testosterone bears no relationship to low libido in women under 45 years of age.

"We found a strong relationship between the low scores for desire, arousal and responsiveness and low DHEAS levels in women under 45, " said Professor Davis.

 

[Hyde12]

I have been taking ResetAD that has Pregnenolone in it and I have been experiencing a rise in libido. I want to keep using it but I don't want to lower DHT because I usually have low leveles of it. I aslo don't want to give false indication on my next blood test.

 

[Hyde12]

Pregnenolone is now added in most cutting edge HRT programs like Dr John uses. Pregenelone causes a small rise in progesterone, which helps prevent T to DHT conversion, so with the addition of preg, DHT is kept in check. Pregenelone also fills in metabolic pathways and causes a rise in not just T, but an increase in other androgenic hormones such as the various andros, DHEA and others. Very ingenious.

Can you post studies that show Pregnenolone conversion to Pregesterone in men?

 

[ItsHectic]

I dont think oral pregnenelone is bioavailable, I have heard DHEA isnt so I would imagine pregnenelone isnt aswell.

 

[coz]

I dont think oral pregnenelone is bioavailable, I have heard DHEA isnt so I would imagine pregnenelone isnt aswell.

It really depends on the individual. I take both oral preg & DHEA, and have verified the DHEA works via before and after blood tests. Unfortunately I don't have the after for the preg yet.

 

[pmgamer18]

Well in my case I can't take Pregnenolone I do 70mgs. of Depo T shots every 3 days and the 2 days in between each I do 350 IU's of HCG. Adding Pregnenolone makes me feel very hot and I sweat a lot. My understanding of this is that my HCG has my Pregnenolone up and adding more it goes right into E2. You can't get a good test on Pregnenolone but checking progesterone dose tell the story. My levels are upper mid range for progesterone.

 

[RPHMark]

Pregnenolone and DHEA are both bioavailable orally, just less efficient than topical.

 

[ItsHectic]

Well in my case I can't take Pregnenolone I do 70mgs. of Depo T shots every 3 days and the 2 days in between each I do 350 IU's of HCG. Adding Pregnenolone makes me feel very hot and I sweat a lot. My understanding of this is that my HCG has my Pregnenolone up and adding more it goes right into E2. You can't get a good test on Pregnenolone but checking progesterone dose tell the story. My levels are upper mid range for progesterone.

How are your DHEAs levels?

 

[JanSz]

Well in my case I can't take Pregnenolone I do 70mgs. of Depo T shots every 3 days and the 2 days in between each I do 350 IU's of HCG. Adding Pregnenolone makes me feel very hot and I sweat a lot. My understanding of this is that my HCG has my Pregnenolone up and adding more it goes right into E2. You can't get a good test on Pregnenolone but checking progesterone dose tell the story. My levels are upper mid range for progesterone.

October 2006 I got from LabCorp

Progesterone=1.4 ng/dL(0.3-1.2)Milers book, page 242(1.5-2.5)
Pregnenolone=23 ng/dL(10–200) LE’s Optimal Range(100–170)ng/dL

So I believe one number but not the other.

Any studies that discuss accuracy of tests, specially these two (in this case).

There were statements like this about other items,

DHT
FreeT (for this I have discussion and some reference)
BAT
SHBG
pregnenolone
progesterone

 

[pmgamer18]

How are your DHEAs levels?

On 25 mgs of DHEA 2x's a day they were good until I started using Quest labs now I don't know what to believe we order DHEA-S labs say I am over the top of the range. In 6 weeks we order same test and they do DHEA only and say I am to low I feel Quest labs are changing things so much that going from every 6 weeks on labs with them are use less. They even did a Free T4 test that has no units and the range was different from the last one. I ask how can one tell what is going on from lab test to lab test with this crap going on. I am thinking about not useing them again 6 yrs. ago we had the same type of problems with them. They have codes for labs so how do you get different tests done then you ask for.

 

[JanSz]

On 25 mgs of DHEA 2x's a day they were good until I started using Quest labs now I don't know what to believe we order DHEA-S labs say I am over the top of the range. In 6 weeks we order same test and they do DHEA only and say I am to low I feel Quest labs are changing things so much that going from every 6 weeks on labs with them are use less. They even did a Free T4 test that has no units and the range was different from the last one. I ask how can one tell what is going on from lab test to lab test with this crap going on. I am thinking about not useing them again 6 yrs. ago we had the same type of problems with them. They have codes for labs so how do you get different tests done then you ask for.

I am still ciurious about DHEA my self.

But in regard to FreeT
the problem is in specifying and actually getting the Freet test that you want.

They have at least two tests to figure out FreeT.
One is actual test
the other is calculation from TotalT and SHBG
you want calculation.

Before I got the order for blood test that I asked for, I went thu two other forms that Quest (and Lab Corp) insist on using.
It is hard to get specific test when wishing for particular test.

For my comming september test I will ask doctor to not use forms but write the request long hand.

I did that once with LabCorp, for short test, it went thru without them complaining.

 

[Hyde12]

October 2006 I got from LabCorp

Progesterone=1.4 ng/dL(0.3-1.2)Milers book, page 242(1.5-2.5)
Pregnenolone=23 ng/dL(10–200) LE’s Optimal Range(100–170)ng/dL

So I believe one number but not the other.

Any studies that discuss accuracy of tests, specially these two (in this case).

There were statements like this about other items,

DHT
FreeT (for this I have discussion and some reference)
BAT
SHBG
pregnenolone
progesterone

This post kinda shows that there isn't a relationship between pregnenolone and progesterone. The main reason I started this thread is because I want to raise pregnenolone (adrenal fatigue issues) but I absolutely don't want to raise progesterone because I heard that that is worse then E2 because it is a lot harder to lower and high progesterone may cause ED.

 

[JanSz]

October 2006 I got from LabCorp

Progesterone=1.4 ng/dL(0.3-1.2)Milers book, page 242(1.5-2.5)
Pregnenolone=23 ng/dL(10–200) LE’s Optimal Range(100–170)ng/dL

This post kinda shows that there isn't a relationship between pregnenolone and progesterone. The main reason I started this thread is because I want to raise pregnenolone (adrenal fatigue issues) but I absolutely don't want to raise progesterone because I heard that that is worse then E2 because it is a lot harder to lower and high progesterone may cause ED.

Is your progesterone higher than that in Dr Miller's book?
Dr Miller and LEF is about the same view.
Can you post some references on high progesterone corelating with ED?

On page 94 of his book, dr Miller is saying:
"From my clinical experience, however, I have found that men with higher progesterone levels are healtier and more youthfull. My target for men is between 1500 and 2500 pg/mL, although I frequently see even higher levels in patients who are using anti-aging therapies. I rarely observe problems due to high progesterone."

=========================================================
Lets look at this chart, page #2
It is for women, but other than levels it apply

http://www.gdx.net/home/images/reportpdf/WHHAMenopausalHRT.pdf

reports from Great Smokies are quite informative, easy to interpret.

 

[Hyde12]

Is your progesterone higher than that in Dr Miller's book?
Dr Miller and LEF is about the same view.
Can you post some references on high progesterone corelating with ED?

On page 94 of his book, dr Miller is saying:
"From my clinical experience, however, I have found that men with higher progesterone levels are healtier and more youthfull. My target for men is between 1500 and 2500 pg/mL, although I frequently see even higher levels in patients who are using anti-aging therapies. I rarely observe problems due to high progesterone."

=========================================================
Lets look at this chart, page #2
It is for women, but other than levels it apply

http://www.gdx.net/home/images/reportpdf/WHHAMenopausalHRT.pdf

reports from Great Smokies are quite informative, easy to interpret.

Doesn't progesterone convert to prolactin??

 

[ItsHectic]

Doesn't progesterone convert to prolactin??

http://library.med.utah.edu/kw/human_reprod/lectures/prolactin/

Progesterone interferes with prolactin action at the alveolar cell's prolactin receptor level. While estrogen and progesterone are required to get full activity of the prolactin receptor,progesterone antagonizes the positive action of prolactin on its receptor by (1) inhibiting up regulation of the prolactin receptor, (2) reducing estrogen binding (lactogenic activity), and (3)competing for binding at the glucocorticoid receptor.

 

[Hyde12]

http://library.med.utah.edu/kw/human_reprod/lectures/prolactin/

Interesting. You know, its funny how there is so much conflicting info on these boards that its hard to figure out what to believe thats why I wanted to see what everyone's thoughts were on pregnenolone. I would still like to know if pregnenolone inhibits DHT or not.

 

[Hyde12]

http://library.med.utah.edu/kw/human_reprod/lectures/prolactin/

I did see this study. It was the first one that came up on google search, but it doesn't say much and it seem like its geared toward women.

 

[griffinannie]

ITSHECTIC, sorry for the delayed response, I've been out of town. To answer your question, my doc prefers oral to transdermal. The only reason I know is think he believes the oral is more bioavaiable to receptors in the brain. ( I hope I said that right.) I have tried both and can't say that I can tell a difference and since my doc knows a hell of a lot more than me I'm going with him. He seems to be rite on everything else.

 

[T800]

Interesting. You know, its funny how there is so much conflicting info on these boards that its hard to figure out what to believe thats why I wanted to see what everyone's thoughts were on pregnenolone. I would still like to know if pregnenolone inhibits DHT or not.

I think the conflicting information comes from 2 sources:

1. People are all different and it seems that there are no universal truths.

2. In a lot of studies, the results are a matter of intepretation.

Sonny

 

[plymouth city]

This post kinda shows that there isn't a relationship between pregnenolone and progesterone. The main reason I started this thread is because I want to raise pregnenolone (adrenal fatigue issues) but I absolutely don't want to raise progesterone because I heard that that is worse then E2 because it is a lot harder to lower and high progesterone may cause ED.

The pregnenolone assay is worthless.

As of 8/2007 we have basically no way to test for pregnenolone. The blood serum values are now known to be inaccurate.

 

[JanSz]

The pregnenolone assay is worthless.

As of 8/2007 we have basically no way to test for pregnenolone. The blood serum values are now known to be inaccurate.

Other than you saying that do you have good supporting evidence?
Please post what you have.

Any rebuttals from Quest or LabCorp would also help.

While you are at it (if you have the evidence)
provide supporting evidence to few other tests that their accuracy have been questioned lately.

 

[Hyde12]

Thanks for the help everyone. I am going to try to get a script for pregnenolone, which isn't going to be easy considering my endo won't even give me HCG.

 

[rippedintexas]

What doses are you all using for Pregnenolone and DHEA?

Both of these hormones were below the lower end of the range on my blood tests, and I was told to take 25mg each, but after a few days I start feeling anxious and had trouble sleeping. Stopping and restarting on a couple of occasions produced the same effect, and I am not one that imagines side effects that aren't there. An internet search revealed these effects were likely due to the Pregnenolone.

Basically all I found on the net was either information that recommended higher doses (up to 200mg daily) or quite low doses (5mg or less daily or even every so many days). I can't seem to find any definitive answer on the subject.

If my levels are low, I would think I'd experience nothing but pleasant results from the replacement therapy. So is my starting dose too high?

 

[T800]

My guess is that it's the DHEA that does it. DHEA gives me anxiety and I know other guys have reported the same. I get anxiety on 25mg/day of DHEA and no anxiety at all from 200mg/day of Pregnenolone.

You can try one at a time to narrow it down.

Sonny

 

[cpeil2]

What doses are you all using for Pregnenolone and DHEA?

Both of these hormones were below the lower end of the range on my blood tests, and I was told to take 25mg each, but after a few days I start feeling anxious and had trouble sleeping. Stopping and restarting on a couple of occasions produced the same effect, and I am not one that imagines side effects that aren't there. An internet search revealed these effects were likely due to the Pregnenolone.

Basically all I found on the net was either information that recommended higher doses (up to 200mg daily) or quite low doses (5mg or less daily or even every so many days). I can't seem to find any definitive answer on the subject.

If my levels are low, I would think I'd experience nothing but pleasant results from the replacement therapy. So is my starting dose too high?

If I take a conservative dose of DHEA, like 25-50 mg., I don't feel a thing, although it keeps my blood level within range. If I take a high dose - 100 mg., I notice a definite brightening of my mood, and increased energy. In spite of the nice boost the high dose gives me, I limit it to 50 mg./day.


I have tried taking pregnenolone in doses as low as 2.5 mg. Even at that low a dose, it makes me anxious and interferes with sleep, so I don't take it at all. I would like to be able to take it though, because I have tested way below range for progesterone. I have a visit with my doc scheduled and am going to ask about a TD formulation.

 

[T800]

cpeil2: Perfect illustration of why this whole puzzle is so hard to figure out. We're completely opposite and might get the same advice from an untrained Dr.

Sonny

 

[wondering]

this illustrates my point on previous thread - we are all different.

cpeil2: Perfect illustration of why this whole puzzle is so hard to figure out. We're completely opposite and might get the same advice from an untrained Dr.

Sonny

 

[plymouth city]

Other than you saying that do you have good supporting evidence?
Please post what you have.

Any rebuttals from Quest or LabCorp would also help.

While you are at it (if you have the evidence)
provide supporting evidence to few other tests that their accuracy have been questioned lately.

Dr John.

He has posted NUMEROUS times about the invalidity of both pregnenolone and SHBG in bloods.

Given his extensive caseload in dealing with HRT patients, I would take any word he has on dealing with bloodtests in specific as gospel. :thumbsup:

 

[plymouth city]

We want to shoot for 100mg of preg a day in cream, and 50mg of DHEA as well.

DHEA is best in cream, but capsule will do fine if no access.

Pregnenolone is horribly absorbed orally. DHEA is ok if good brand. Take DHEA with fatty foods like peanutbutter and your fish oils + Vit E. Take it twice a day.

 

[wondering]

that's interesting. Dr. Crisler had me run BW for SHBG.

Dr John.

He has posted NUMEROUS times about the invalidity of both pregnenolone and SHBG in bloods.

Given his extensive caseload in dealing with HRT patients, I would take any word he has on dealing with bloodtests in specific as gospel. :thumbsup:

 

[plymouth city]

that's interesting. Dr. Crisler had me run BW for SHBG.

Probably for a overall general picture of whats going on. Same can go for DHT. It is an inaccurate test as well. Yet it is still checked for, because it is helpfull. It will give you a general feel for whats going on. Both SHBG and DHT have a very big +- ratio and can vary. Usefull to test for, but with guys wanting to base a SHBG reading on their entire HRT program is just crazy talk :lol:

 

[rippedintexas]

We want to shoot for 100mg of preg a day in cream, and 50mg of DHEA as well.

DHEA is best in cream, but capsule will do fine if no access.

Pregnenolone is horribly absorbed orally. DHEA is ok if good brand. Take DHEA with fatty foods like peanutbutter and your fish oils + Vit E. Take it twice a day.

Where do you get your Pregnenolone and DHEA cream? Did you just call a compounding pharmacy and have it made? I haven't found many "pre-manufactured" sources for it.

Does your cream combine both ingredients on one, or do you have two separate creams?

 

[rippedintexas]

Dr John.

He has posted NUMEROUS times about the invalidity of both pregnenolone and SHBG in bloods.

Given his extensive caseload in dealing with HRT patients, I would take any word he has on dealing with bloodtests in specific as gospel. :thumbsup:

What do you use then to determine if your levels are deficient? My blood tests were done through Quest Diagnostics. My DHEA was well below the lower end of the range, and the Pregnenolone was <10 with 10 being the lower limit.

 

[rippedintexas]

If I take a conservative dose of DHEA, like 25-50 mg., I don't feel a thing, although it keeps my blood level within range. If I take a high dose - 100 mg., I notice a definite brightening of my mood, and increased energy. In spite of the nice boost the high dose gives me, I limit it to 50 mg./day.


I have tried taking pregnenolone in doses as low as 2.5 mg. Even at that low a dose, it makes me anxious and interferes with sleep, so I don't take it at all. I would like to be able to take it though, because I have tested way below range for progesterone. I have a visit with my doc scheduled and am going to ask about a TD formulation.

What I can't figure out is, if my body needs this replacement, why is it giving me grief when I do so? All I can figure out is that it is causing a shifting of hormones and so we are just "off" for a while. But the anxiety and sleep disruption is intense enough to be uncomfortable.

What's weird is I feel great at first, maybe the first 3 days or so, and then the nasty sides kicks in.

 

[JanSz]

Dr John.

He has posted NUMEROUS times about the invalidity of both pregnenolone and SHBG in bloods.

Given his extensive caseload in dealing with HRT patients, I would take any word he has on dealing with bloodtests in specific as gospel. :thumbsup:

That is what I thought.
Do you remember if anytime he supported this type of statement with reference to actual research, I do not recall any.

I am sure that Dr John was right when he said that.
I recall these post myself.

But I also think that we are talking legalise.
Nothing that we measure is measured perfectly.
If we get close enough the process of measuring interferes.

For our daily life we have to get what we can and act on that.
Most of people cant even get their tests from Quest,
they still need to get help.

 

[cpeil2]

What I can't figure out is, if my body needs this replacement, why is it giving me grief when I do so? All I can figure out is that it is causing a shifting of hormones and so we are just "off" for a while. But the anxiety and sleep disruption is too much to tolerate.

What's weird is I feel great at first, maybe the first 3 days or so, and then the nasty sides kicks in.

Yes, I have often had that same experience

 

[plymouth city]

Where do you get your Pregnenolone and DHEA cream? Did you just call a compounding pharmacy and have it made? I haven't found many "pre-manufactured" sources for it.

Does your cream combine both ingredients on one, or do you have two separate creams?

Any reputable compounding pharmacy should be able to get you those, they are small potatoes. Just call around.

You do need a script though

 

[plymouth city]

What do you use then to determine if your levels are deficient? My blood tests were done through Quest Diagnostics. My DHEA was well below the lower end of the range, and the Pregnenolone was <10 with 10 being the lower limit.

Pregnenolone, even at quest, is invalid.

Dhea does show some accuracy.

Basically, if one os going on HRT, one is going on Pregnenolone. If one's DHEA levels are deemed ok, then DHEA probably isn't needed.

One often gets enough DHEA from Pregnenolone

 

[JanSz]

Probably for a overall general picture of whats going on. Same can go for DHT. It is an inaccurate test as well. Yet it is still checked for, because it is helpfull. It will give you a general feel for whats going on. Both SHBG and DHT have a very big +- ratio and can vary. Usefull to test for, but with guys wanting to base a SHBG reading on their entire HRT program is just crazy talk :lol:

Anytime I calculated T dose starting with SHBG level, I mentioned that it is initial dose and that blood should be tested in two months or so and dose adjusted.

The purpose of doing this is to zero in on proper dose quicker.

Starting everybody on cookie cutter 100mg/week would also work, it would just take longer to get to steady state, unless somebody needs the 100mg/week dose to begin with.

IIRC, I read here about some attempts to start with 50mg/week (no hcg), I think that is same as torturing a patient.

I also see no reason to wait with starting hcg, it shoud be used right away.
Not using hcg leads to predictable outcome, no mysteries.
Lack of HCG at first and starting it latter on extends time to stabilize patient with no additional gains..

 

[plymouth city]

That is what I thought.
Do you remember if anytime he supported this type of statement with reference to actual research, I do not recall any.

I am sure that Dr John was right when he said that.
I recall these post myself.

But I also think that we are talking legalise.
Nothing that we measure is measured perfectly.
If we get close enough the process of measuring interferes.

For our daily life we have to get what we can and act on that.
Most of people cant even get their tests from Quest,
they still need to get help.

He said that he has ran BW for preg tons of times, always came back out of range. Said the numbers either with or without supplementation just didn't add up right.

SHBG is another one. He said that it is just to unreliable.

Makes sense if one understands the science behind SHBG - We are talking about trying to test for particles that are microscopic.

All the T in your body barely registers as a drop in a shot glass, and SHBG represents a fraction of that, so just imagine how difficult it is to test for WITH accuracy.

Most things Dr J does I agree with, a few I don't - But when it comes to his caseload of bloodwork and history of patients, nobody in the world is probably more qualified to speak upon BW then him.

 

[rippedintexas]

Pregnenolone, even at quest, is invalid.

Dhea does show some accuracy.

Basically, if one os going on HRT, one is going on Pregnenolone. If one's DHEA levels are deemed ok, then DHEA probably isn't needed.

One often gets enough DHEA from Pregnenolone

The decision to supplement these two hormones was based on the fact that, though my Total T was in the upper range, my Free T at the lower end (%free was low) and my darn SHBG is about 10 points above the upper end of the range, and has been for a couple of years. DHT is always upper range.

The docs at the clinic I attend are certified in anti-aging medicine, and they concluded the low DHEA and Pregnenolone were likely responsible for the high SHBG and lower Free T, and the replacement of these should bring up my Free T without the need to go on TRT.

So I guess the deficiency of these two hormones are likely the result of adrenal issues more so than male problems.

 

[plymouth city]

The decision to supplement these two hormones was based on the fact that, though my Total T was in the upper range, my Free T at the lower end (%free was low) and my darn SHBG is about 10 points above the upper end of the range, and has been for a couple of years. DHT is always upper range.

The docs at the clinic I attend are certified in anti-aging medicine, and they concluded the low DHEA and Pregnenolone were likely responsible for the high SHBG and lower Free T, and the replacement of these should bring up my Free T without the need to go on TRT.

So I guess the deficiency of these two hormones are likely the result of adrenal issues more so than male problems.

What is your E2 level?

High TT and low FT is almost exclusive to having to much E

 

[plymouth city]

Anytime I calculated T dose starting with SHBG level, I mentioned that it is initial dose and that blood should be tested in two months or so and dose adjusted.

The purpose of doing this is to zero in on proper dose quicker.

Starting everybody on cookie cutter 100mg/week would also work, it would just take longer to get to steady state, unless somebody needs the 100mg/week dose to begin with.

IIRC, I read here about some attempts to start with 50mg/week (no hcg), I think that is same as torturing a patient.

I also see no reason to wait with starting hcg, it shoud be used right away.
Not using hcg leads to predictable outcome, no mysteries.
Lack of HCG at first and starting it latter on extends time to stabilize patient with no additional gains..

We have rehashed this a million times my good polish friend

SHBG by itself is an invalid assay - There is just to much MARGIN FOR ERROR. How can we base a T dose on an invalid reading.

2ndly, there is a reason why we start at 100mg per week - this is a good starting dose and it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell how one is going to respond to any given dose. Thats why we start low and go up.

3rdly, as I stated many times before, we want to start with one thing at a time. How are we EVER going to figure out a proper T and AI dose when adding hcG right away?