Long term use of HCG safe?

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    Rick,
    I also recommend everyone start with an average of 5mg of T per day, and adjust from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Rick,
    I also recommend everyone start with an average of 5mg of T per day, and adjust from there.
    Plymouth-

    OK, the idea of a gel makes sense, I had never heard the circadian rhythm explained before.

    My only real issue with the gel heretofore had been the higher relative conversion to DHT reported and my concern about losing hair. (Does anyone know if you can order Dr. John's shampoo without being a full fledged patient or is that a prescription item also?)

    My physician is understanding and I have spoken with the local compounding pharmacy (25 minute drive) who has told me they can compound a gel. Specifically, what would I ask my physician to prescribe? i.e. XX grams of XX percent testosterone.

    And if I understand you correctly, your opinion is to start with the gel only, retest levels in XXX weeks, then get estrogen in line (arimidex? clomid?), retest again, THEN consider HcG.

    Lastly, I have heard about skipping the gel one day a week - what is this for? Is this a rhythm issue also?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Plymouth-

    OK, the idea of a gel makes sense, I had never heard the circadian rhythm explained before.

    My only real issue with the gel heretofore had been the higher relative conversion to DHT reported and my concern about losing hair. (Does anyone know if you can order Dr. John's shampoo without being a full fledged patient or is that a prescription item also?)

    My physician is understanding and I have spoken with the local compounding pharmacy (25 minute drive) who has told me they can compound a gel. Specifically, what would I ask my physician to prescribe? i.e. XX grams of XX percent testosterone.

    And if I understand you correctly, your opinion is to start with the gel only, retest levels in XXX weeks, then get estrogen in line (arimidex? clomid?), retest again, THEN consider HcG.

    Lastly, I have heard about skipping the gel one day a week - what is this for? Is this a rhythm issue also?
    Check this out - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm

    I have wrote about the DHT issue extensively before. IMO this is way overblown and many are simply reaching for an excuse to shoot for injects. This is false thinking.

    Circulating DHT levels and issues such as acne, balding and BPH is not directly coorelated. This is a very complex process. It is involved with FT - DHT conversion via 5 alpha enzyme on skin(acne) scalp(balding and prostate(BPH). Bad estrogen metabolites and aging are at play and increase action of this enzyme that converts FT- DHT via enzyme. DIM + TMG can be used to prevent bad estrogen metabolites at play.

    DHT is a very important hormone. As long as levels are kept within range you will be fine.

    Pregnenolone is now added in most cutting edge HRT programs like Dr John uses. Pregenelone causes a small rise in progesterone, which helps prevent T to DHT conversion, so with the addition of preg, DHT is kept in check. Pregenelone also fills in metabolic pathways and causes a rise in not just T, but an increase in other androgenic hormones such as the various andros, DHEA and others. Very ingenious.

    Shoot for max strength T cream via compounding pharmacy. Testosterone Gel (Compounded) 10%

    Start with gel first then restest. The AI of choice now(if needed) is arimidex. It can be pricey but cheaper alternatives are available. PM me. Starting dose is .25mg E3D. Clomid is not needed.

    I am not familiar with skipping a day using transdermals yet, this is something I will talk to Dr John about when I see him.
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    Plymouth-

    Thanks again, I am thinking of just driving to Michigan for the day as opposed to going through my PCP. As I understand it, I only need to physically make the trip once and it might be easier.

    Regardless, I am going to have my PCP run the labwork, as he is open to treatment himself and I can get coverage for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    1.

    3. My issues with Nebido are the same with all injects - they completely ignore the daily "Pulses" and rythym of natural testosterone production. T is supposed to be highest at beginning of day and drop down at the end of the day for circadian rhythm. For these process, transdermals simply cannot be beat, hands down they are superior, even to nebido
    Is it yr opinon that this slow releasing injection is better than T cyp or other injections since u say "even to nebido" ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    3. My issues with Nebido are the same with all injects - they completely ignore the daily "Pulses" and rythym of natural testosterone production. T is supposed to be highest at beginning of day and drop down at the end of the day for circadian rhythm. For these process, transdermals simply cannot be beat, hands down they are superior, even to nebido
    Gel aplication is not even close in replication of circadian rhythm.
    Replication of circadian rhythm is most likely impossible and its benefits are overrated.

    Few people that are on pellets report most happy outcomes.

    Vforcer2 at first abbandon pellets due to cost, now he is back on pellets. I think the price is going down.
    ---------------------------
    My problem with pellets is that they are more or less a cookie cutter method. Last about 3 months.
    In that time TotalT level (gradually) drops from about 1200 to 800.
    No account for SHBG levels, for some TT on pellets may be too much, for others not enough. Possibly those who are happy require this particular TT levels.
    SHBG rises with age, possibly pellets are good for large portion of seniors and younger men with higher SHBG.
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    I do like the idea of the Nebido injections being 8 - 12 weeks apart after the preliminary loading phase.

    I wonder how you would incorporate hCG into this. Would it be 100 iu E3D? In the M/D article this month it was noted that hCG was not needed to get test levels to normalize upon cessation, whatever that means.

    I think a drawback might be price, though; it's a new, patented drug and they're going to have to make their advertising money back somehow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    I do like the idea of the Nebido injections being 8 - 12 weeks apart after the preliminary loading phase.

    I wonder how you would incorporate hCG into this. Would it be 100 iu E3D? In the M/D article this month it was noted that hCG was not needed to get test levels to normalize upon cessation, whatever that means.

    I think a drawback might be price, though; it's a new, patented drug and they're going to have to make their advertising money back somehow.
    I think there is a study that says about 110iu/day or even slightly more makes testis produce close to 100% capacity (capacity= whatewer they are able to produce).

    Since usually we want to do shots as least as we can,
    250iu/E2D is commonly used.

    My testis production is nill, to keep their size I use 500iu E3D, that coincides with my E3D T shots.
    ============================== =====
    If I do one or two shots at the sitting, for me it is same.
    So I consider E3D (T+hcg) routine more convenient and beneficial, than

    T 1/week plus 2 days of HCG, that is 3 days with shots in a week, infrequent T shots, causing disstress in some.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Plymouth-

    Thanks again, I am thinking of just driving to Michigan for the day as opposed to going through my PCP. As I understand it, I only need to physically make the trip once and it might be easier.

    Regardless, I am going to have my PCP run the labwork, as he is open to treatment himself and I can get coverage for it.
    That would be best, IMO.

    Forget the labwork. The gold standard is to get Urines IMO. Dr John will run that for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    . Second, BECAUSE it is compounded, the very nature of compounding drugs to change variables, it is STRONGER. That means your getting more T in less gel. So we are applying less gel. This is a big advantage.

    Not necessarily. It all depends on what concentration the physician prescribes. There is also an upper limit to the concentration. I don't remember what Dr. John said the maximum concentration is, but above that concentration, the T tends to stay on the surface of the skin in a "frost,'' rather than being absorbed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Plymouth-

    Thanks again, I am thinking of just driving to Michigan for the day as opposed to going through my PCP. As I understand it, I only need to physically make the trip once and it might be easier.

    Regardless, I am going to have my PCP run the labwork, as he is open to treatment himself and I can get coverage for it.
    Run as many tests as you can talk your doc into.
    My list of tests cost $3500 fully documented need for it by my doctor, fully paid by insurance.

    In my experience the hard part is documentation.

    but in my list you have both
    items to test
    and
    ICD-9 codes

    If you have known thyroid or adrenals problems you may want to expand my list in that areas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post
    Not necessarily. It all depends on what concentration the physician prescribes. There is also an upper limit to the concentration. I don't remember what Dr. John said the maximum concentration is, but above that concentration, the T tends to stay on the surface of the skin in a "frost,'' rather than being absorbed.
    LOL please tell me you didn't think I did not know that
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I think there is a study that says about 110iu/day or even slightly more makes testis produce close to 100% capacity (capacity= whatewer they are able to produce).

    Since usually we want to do shots as least as we can,
    250iu/E2D is commonly used.

    My testis production is nill, to keep their size I use 500iu E3D, that coincides with my E3D T shots.
    ============================== =====
    If I do one or two shots at the sitting, for me it is same.
    So I consider E3D (T+hcg) routine more convenient and beneficial, than

    T 1/week plus 2 days of HCG, that is 3 days with shots in a week, infrequent T shots, causing disstress in some.
    JansZ,
    From some new research Im doing on hcG, keeping testicals alive for cosmetic and fertility purposes is looking like the secondary bonus to hcG.

    The real bonus is that fact that LH receptors are scattered throughout the body, and hcG mimics LH.
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    Plymouth - does it make more sense to take the hCG all along while taking the test or taking it every few months (not necessarily stopping the test, as I now understand this is not the goal of HRT). I'm wondering if, for convenience, hCG could be used every few months for a weekly? period as opposed to E2D, etc...

    Also, today is the day I see my doctor to pick up lab requests. I am going to make sure I at least have the following:

    TSH, Free T3, Free T4, (my body temp is low, I'm not wondering if my symptoms are primarily from thyroid)

    Test, Free Test, E2, FSH, LH, DHT

    Anything else anyone can recommend that's mandatory? Sorry to be way OT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Plymouth - does it make more sense to take the hCG all along while taking the test or taking it every few months (not necessarily stopping the test, as I now understand this is not the goal of HRT). I'm wondering if, for convenience, hCG could be used every few months for a weekly? period as opposed to E2D, etc...

    Also, today is the day I see my doctor to pick up lab requests. I am going to make sure I at least have the following:

    TSH, Free T3, Free T4, (my body temp is low, I'm not wondering if my symptoms are primarily from thyroid)

    Test, Free Test, E2, FSH, LH, DHT

    Anything else anyone can recommend that's mandatory? Sorry to be way OT.
    rick,
    we want to always stay on hcG while on HRT. Specific dose is 250IU E3D.

    I would not recommend you get any of that BW done. I am going to assume, and will probably be right, that it is not being done at Quest. BW in general can be difficult to give a overall general picture. Save your money.

    Ideally
    1. Urines(Rheins)
    2. Quest BW
    3. As a last last last last resort, threw Labcorp at LEF.

    In house labs are going to be invalid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    LOL please tell me you didn't think I did not know that

    Of course you knew it, but it didn't seem like the original poster would have been able to extract those facts from your post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Hard to say, I think both HCG and Arimidex are safe when used in doses mostly used for TRT.

    Human Growth Hormone, HGH,
    I have cancer, liposarcoma.
    Some cancers are promoted by HGH, my cancer is within that group, I will not use HGH.

    All this is rather cutting edge, hard to find definitive information.

    Lately there was a thread on Sermorelin.

    Sermorelin..better than HGH?

    Sermorelin induces body to produce its own HGH.

    It is going to be tougher and tougher to figure out.
    ============================== ================

    With your TotalT=425 you have little choice, you have to use testosterone.
    You do have certain amount of choice about HCG.
    If you do not care about preserwing fertility, do not use HCG, your testis will shrink but that is cosmetics at this point.

    Make sure that you get more thorough test than just testosterone, usually people who have low T shortly find out about other problems that they have.

    Start with good blood test. Use mine list here, post #44.
    You may want to peruse the whole thread.
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Often people start on Tgels, creams etc. Transdermals do not work for certain group of people. For some they work.
    Try to spend as liitle time as possible on transdermals.
    If you find they do not work for you go ASAP for injections.
    Make sure they are SubQ 31ga needles, rather than big nails.
    Here usualy doc may want to give you only smal dose of Testosterone, no HCG and se if that would work.
    After your testis are shrunk, they make attempt at reviwing them, give you script for HCG.

    I wish I could have started with higher dose of T and HCG righ away.

    On my thread:
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
    I figured out how to get to proper injected T-dose quicker.
    You need to have SHBG value to figure that out.

    When time comes I can help you figure out your initial dose.

    Make sure you do long blood test, will save you tons of grief.
    JanSz, in this quote you suggest using a 31gauge needle, is that for HCG or Test Cyp? I didnt think you could get Test through 31gauge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by calvin6697 View Post
    JanSz, in this quote you suggest using a 31gauge needle, is that for HCG or Test Cyp? I didnt think you could get Test through 31gauge.
    I do this every three days and inject subq around navel.
    30units Depo-T and 500iu HCG Novarel (2 syringes)

    I draw 30 units and it takes 4 minutes,
    I then make sure that shot takes at least one minute.
    No pain whatsoever, no soreness.
    After shot is done I keep the needle in for another 30 second or so.
    It is very short needle, sometimes tiny tiny drop of oil shows up on skin, if I wait with pulling out the needle, then it happens less often.

    I use these needles;
    BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b
    BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

    these are also good:
    Colostomy Supplies, Pet Diabetic Supplies
    Easy Touch U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16 inch Short Needle 100/Box Sale Price: $13.99

    for larger doses
    BD Ultrafine U-100 Insulin Syringe 30 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2Inch 100/Box Price: $23.50
    BD Ultrafine U-100 Insulin Syringe 30 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2Inch 100/Box
    =============================
    Note;
    So it would fit into 3/10mL syringe
    I disolve my 10000iu Novarel using 5mL of bacteriostatic water
    500iu=25units

    I use my Novarel untill is all gone.
    10000/500=20 shots
    20*3=60 days
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I do this every three days and inject subq around navel.
    30units Depo-T and 500iu HCG Novarel (2 syringes)

    I draw 30 units and it takes 4 minutes,
    I then make sure that shot takes at least one minute.
    No pain whatsoever, no soreness.

    I use these needles;
    BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b
    BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

    these are also good:
    Colostomy Supplies, Pet Diabetic Supplies
    Easy Touch U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16 inch Short Needle 100/Box Sale Price: $13.99

    for larger doses
    BD Ultrafine U-100 Insulin Syringe 30 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2Inch 100/Box Price: $23.50
    BD Ultrafine U-100 Insulin Syringe 30 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2Inch 100/Box
    Thanks very interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by calvin6697 View Post
    Thanks very interesting.
    Note that I edited and added to my post while you were writting yours..
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Note that I edited and added to my post while you were writting yours..
    I am a little confused, do you inject your Testosterone around your navel? I thought it had to be IM?
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    Quote Originally Posted by calvin6697 View Post
    I am a little confused, do you inject your Testosterone around your navel? I thought it had to be IM?
    Yes, Depo-Testosterone shots, 200mg/ml, 30units per shot, SubQ around navel.

    Totally painless, or same as hcg shots.

    Ask my pines, it works for him, so I do not argue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Yes, Depo-Testosterone shots, 200mg/ml, 30units per shot, SubQ around navel.

    Totally painless, or same as hcg shots.

    Ask my pines, it works for him, so I do not argue.
    I believe you, I am pretty new to all of this so forgive my ignorance. SubQ means just under the skin right? IM means intramuscular?
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    Quote Originally Posted by calvin6697 View Post
    I believe you, I am pretty new to all of this so forgive my ignorance. SubQ means just under the skin right? IM means intramuscular?
    SubQ means just under the skin right?--------YES
    but if you enough fat on belly, you can go straight thru, 90degree, no slanted needle, as one would do with long needle.

    IM means intramuscular?---------------YES

    with much larger and longer needle.
    put the needle in anatomically available space (study anatomy)
    after you put needle in, pull the plunger back, looking for punctured vein and blood
    re-insert and repeat until no blood present
    after the shot, wait, sometimes few days for pain or discomfort to diappear

    systen not really conducive to use by non-professionals,
    and not condudive to frequent E2D or E3D shots

    that is why often you see convoluted reasons to buy time between shots.
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    does sub-q T last longer than IM?

    What's the pros/cons?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    does sub-q T last longer than IM?

    What's the pros/cons?
    For me it is in size of needles and complexity of doing the shot.

    By my personal experience, the shots are getting into the system, I feel much better than any time that I was on transdermals.

    Numerical proof could possibly come in couple of weeks after my blood test.
  

  
 

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