Long term use of HCG safe?
- 08-17-2007, 01:24 PM
- 08-17-2007, 01:38 PM
OK, the idea of a gel makes sense, I had never heard the circadian rhythm explained before.
My only real issue with the gel heretofore had been the higher relative conversion to DHT reported and my concern about losing hair. (Does anyone know if you can order Dr. John's shampoo without being a full fledged patient or is that a prescription item also?)
My physician is understanding and I have spoken with the local compounding pharmacy (25 minute drive) who has told me they can compound a gel. Specifically, what would I ask my physician to prescribe? i.e. XX grams of XX percent testosterone.
And if I understand you correctly, your opinion is to start with the gel only, retest levels in XXX weeks, then get estrogen in line (arimidex? clomid?), retest again, THEN consider HcG.
Lastly, I have heard about skipping the gel one day a week - what is this for? Is this a rhythm issue also?
- 08-17-2007, 04:16 PM
I have wrote about the DHT issue extensively before. IMO this is way overblown and many are simply reaching for an excuse to shoot for injects. This is false thinking.
Circulating DHT levels and issues such as acne, balding and BPH is not directly coorelated. This is a very complex process. It is involved with FT - DHT conversion via 5 alpha enzyme on skin(acne) scalp(balding and prostate(BPH). Bad estrogen metabolites and aging are at play and increase action of this enzyme that converts FT- DHT via enzyme. DIM + TMG can be used to prevent bad estrogen metabolites at play.
DHT is a very important hormone. As long as levels are kept within range you will be fine.
Pregnenolone is now added in most cutting edge HRT programs like Dr John uses. Pregenelone causes a small rise in progesterone, which helps prevent T to DHT conversion, so with the addition of preg, DHT is kept in check. Pregenelone also fills in metabolic pathways and causes a rise in not just T, but an increase in other androgenic hormones such as the various andros, DHEA and others. Very ingenious.
Shoot for max strength T cream via compounding pharmacy. Testosterone Gel (Compounded) 10%
Start with gel first then restest. The AI of choice now(if needed) is arimidex. It can be pricey but cheaper alternatives are available. PM me. Starting dose is .25mg E3D. Clomid is not needed.
I am not familiar with skipping a day using transdermals yet, this is something I will talk to Dr John about when I see him.
08-17-2007, 04:56 PM
Thanks again, I am thinking of just driving to Michigan for the day as opposed to going through my PCP. As I understand it, I only need to physically make the trip once and it might be easier.
Regardless, I am going to have my PCP run the labwork, as he is open to treatment himself and I can get coverage for it.
08-19-2007, 12:09 AM
08-19-2007, 07:34 AM
Replication of circadian rhythm is most likely impossible and its benefits are overrated.
Few people that are on pellets report most happy outcomes.
Vforcer2 at first abbandon pellets due to cost, now he is back on pellets. I think the price is going down.
My problem with pellets is that they are more or less a cookie cutter method. Last about 3 months.
In that time TotalT level (gradually) drops from about 1200 to 800.
No account for SHBG levels, for some TT on pellets may be too much, for others not enough. Possibly those who are happy require this particular TT levels.
SHBG rises with age, possibly pellets are good for large portion of seniors and younger men with higher SHBG.
08-19-2007, 08:32 AM
I do like the idea of the Nebido injections being 8 - 12 weeks apart after the preliminary loading phase.
I wonder how you would incorporate hCG into this. Would it be 100 iu E3D? In the M/D article this month it was noted that hCG was not needed to get test levels to normalize upon cessation, whatever that means.
I think a drawback might be price, though; it's a new, patented drug and they're going to have to make their advertising money back somehow.
08-19-2007, 09:42 AM
Since usually we want to do shots as least as we can,
250iu/E2D is commonly used.
My testis production is nill, to keep their size I use 500iu E3D, that coincides with my E3D T shots.
If I do one or two shots at the sitting, for me it is same.
So I consider E3D (T+hcg) routine more convenient and beneficial, than
T 1/week plus 2 days of HCG, that is 3 days with shots in a week, infrequent T shots, causing disstress in some.
08-19-2007, 11:43 AM
08-19-2007, 11:54 AM
Not necessarily. It all depends on what concentration the physician prescribes. There is also an upper limit to the concentration. I don't remember what Dr. John said the maximum concentration is, but above that concentration, the T tends to stay on the surface of the skin in a "frost,'' rather than being absorbed.
08-19-2007, 11:55 AM
My list of tests cost $3500 fully documented need for it by my doctor, fully paid by insurance.
In my experience the hard part is documentation.
but in my list you have both
items to test
If you have known thyroid or adrenals problems you may want to expand my list in that areas.
08-21-2007, 11:58 AM
08-21-2007, 12:00 PM
08-21-2007, 12:53 PM
Plymouth - does it make more sense to take the hCG all along while taking the test or taking it every few months (not necessarily stopping the test, as I now understand this is not the goal of HRT). I'm wondering if, for convenience, hCG could be used every few months for a weekly? period as opposed to E2D, etc...
Also, today is the day I see my doctor to pick up lab requests. I am going to make sure I at least have the following:
TSH, Free T3, Free T4, (my body temp is low, I'm not wondering if my symptoms are primarily from thyroid)
Test, Free Test, E2, FSH, LH, DHT
Anything else anyone can recommend that's mandatory? Sorry to be way OT.
08-21-2007, 02:15 PM
we want to always stay on hcG while on HRT. Specific dose is 250IU E3D.
I would not recommend you get any of that BW done. I am going to assume, and will probably be right, that it is not being done at Quest. BW in general can be difficult to give a overall general picture. Save your money.
2. Quest BW
3. As a last last last last resort, threw Labcorp at LEF.
In house labs are going to be invalid.
08-21-2007, 06:05 PM
08-22-2007, 07:12 AM
08-22-2007, 07:45 AM
30units Depo-T and 500iu HCG Novarel (2 syringes)
I draw 30 units and it takes 4 minutes,
I then make sure that shot takes at least one minute.
No pain whatsoever, no soreness.
After shot is done I keep the needle in for another 30 second or so.
It is very short needle, sometimes tiny tiny drop of oil shows up on skin, if I wait with pulling out the needle, then it happens less often.
I use these needles;
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95
these are also good:
Colostomy Supplies, Pet Diabetic Supplies
Easy Touch U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16 inch Short Needle 100/Box Sale Price: $13.99
for larger doses
BD Ultrafine U-100 Insulin Syringe 30 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2Inch 100/Box Price: $23.50
BD Ultrafine U-100 Insulin Syringe 30 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2Inch 100/Box
So it would fit into 3/10mL syringe
I disolve my 10000iu Novarel using 5mL of bacteriostatic water
I use my Novarel untill is all gone.
08-22-2007, 07:58 AM
08-22-2007, 08:00 AM
08-22-2007, 08:16 AM
08-22-2007, 08:24 AM
08-22-2007, 08:32 AM
08-22-2007, 09:16 AM
but if you enough fat on belly, you can go straight thru, 90degree, no slanted needle, as one would do with long needle.
IM means intramuscular?---------------YES
with much larger and longer needle.
put the needle in anatomically available space (study anatomy)
after you put needle in, pull the plunger back, looking for punctured vein and blood
re-insert and repeat until no blood present
after the shot, wait, sometimes few days for pain or discomfort to diappear
systen not really conducive to use by non-professionals,
and not condudive to frequent E2D or E3D shots
that is why often you see convoluted reasons to buy time between shots.
08-25-2007, 07:42 PM
does sub-q T last longer than IM?
What's the pros/cons?
08-25-2007, 07:47 PM
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