Long term use of HCG safe?

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  1. does any1 have solid proof or even a study indicating that overdoing hcg can damage Leydig cells in humans? Im gonna need something to show my doc if indeed its true.

    typical protocall here are hcg 3x1500iu / week and he says he has guys who been doing this for years. Guess they use it as sole trt.


  2. Rick,
    The HCG did not effect me in other ways that I am aware of. That said, I did not have any depression problems before HCG. I guess I was cranky while on low T but I was on androgel for 4 years before I switched to HCG so I can't say if it helped my mood I guess. I know many men do have depression and other emotional issues when T is very low so your question is very valid but for me it was not an issue. Also, I should say that even though HCG by itself does not work for me, I feel best on the 4 days a week I take HCG. I take T cyp on Wed and HCG on Sat thru Tue.

    Good question also above about any studies on HCG desensitizing leydig cells. I have taken this for gospel since I have read it so many times and Dr Shippen has told me this but I do not know of studies. There may not be any and this may be anecdotal evidence from Dr Shippen and other pioneers in this area. Actually if there were studies to show this I doubt the ASCE guidlines for HCG protocol would call for such high doses as it does.

    In any event here is the argument to use with your doctor. You always want to take the least dosage possible of any drug as long as it works for you. Why take any more than you need. In the case of HCG, according to Dr. Shippen, if your dose is too high the result is your E2 rapidly rises while your T only goes up marginally from the extra dose above the optimal level for your particular body.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    When I was on Androgel only, for few years, my testis shrunk to nothing, as expected.

    I started HCG in feb 2007 and within a month size of my testis came back.

    I started HCG E2D 250iu in Feb 2007.
    Since 6/19/2007 I am on 500iu E3D, possibly two days free of HCG makes my testis fluctuate hardness wise. They are newer as hard as they used to be in my hey days.

    But the pines works all right, so I do not worry too much.
    Can you explain the time frame for shrinkage? How did this effect libido, latency to climax and how did adding HCG change things?

  4. Here is my overarching question about TRT and HcG in general:

    1. You have low testosterone so you start testosterone therapy.
    2. You feel good for a while
    3. The added testosterone supresses your HPT axis, causing your body's production to lower.
    4. You don't feel so good anymore.

    Don't you almost have to use HcG or add more test or something at that point? How does that all work?

    Also, has anyone here used Nebido? There's a great article about it Muscular Development this month as a means for TRT in hypogonadal men. It talks about a German study in which men had success and said estradiol levels did not increas much on the drug because it was evenly released or something like that.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by TiredOldFart View Post
    Can you explain the time frame for shrinkage? How did this effect libido, latency to climax and how did adding HCG change things?
    I started on 5gram, one packet of Androgel.
    When I started my TotalT~300
    At first it was very good, then in (I think) in few months it started going downhill.
    Also during that time my balls disappeared.
    I did not knew about balls at that time so I was not reay payng attention to that.
    But it took long time, say six monts for them to be gone.

    It took 30 days on HCG to get the balls back.
    As far as I can tell, I do not have any sensation, benefits or otherwise from using HCG.

    I am using Novarel.
    I am using it until it is gone.
    I do not see any difference (balls size etc) when I am starting fresh vial or when I am on the end of the vial, in 80 days or so latter.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Here is my overarching question about TRT and HcG in general:

    1. You have low testosterone so you start testosterone therapy.
    2. You feel good for a while
    3. The added testosterone supresses your HPT axis, causing your body's production to lower.
    4. You don't feel so good anymore.

    Don't you almost have to use HcG or add more test or something at that point? How does that all work?

    Also, has anyone here used Nebido? There's a great article about it Muscular Development this month as a means for TRT in hypogonadal men. It talks about a German study in which men had success and said estradiol levels did not increas much on the drug because it was evenly released or something like that.
    Points
    1.
    2.
    3.
    4.
    are correct
    conclusion is not
    Correctness or incorrectness is in eye of beholder.

    There is always adjustment period.

    When ones goal is to reach stable condition ASAP, one should use HCG at the start of therapy
    and testosterone shots at the very start. And I am talking about tiny, did I said tiny 5/16" long, needles for both T+hcg shots, not the 1.5" long nails driven into tender flesh that hurt next 2-3 days.

    Just looking at those needles one thinks of everything else, gells, tcream, anything but those needles, and forget about frequent injections.

    There are always other considerations.

    1. one is done with steroid cycles and would like to come back to more normal life

    2. newer used steroids, but is hoping that there is a way to make his balls work

    3. one likes to know if hi is primary or secondary, like if that would give him some gain or other satisfaction.

    4. desires to father child is only valid excuse in my book.
    But here doctors unnecessarily put men thru hardship and deppressive state of mind due to low T. One can be on T shots plus HCG and be fertile, when problems arrise add HMG for a year. There is no need to drive testosterone down in mean time. Somebody attempting to be a father needs all the energy he can muster. Fatherhood is big job for the next couple of decades, at least.

    5. there are other variants, most notable, uncooperative doctors, or doctors who want to experiment to broaden their expertise, that I can understand, little choice, except stating you goal to doctor and telling him of no desire for much experimentation.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by nallepuh View Post
    does any1 have solid proof or even a study indicating that overdoing hcg can damage Leydig cells in humans? Im gonna need something to show my doc if indeed its true.

    typical protocall here are hcg 3x1500iu / week and he says he has guys who been doing this for years. Guess they use it as sole trt.
    Dr Johns protocol on hcG, it is a sticky at the top of page.

    Your Dr's hcG protocol is stone age and completely backwards

  8. [QUOTE=JanSz;961595], one should use HCG at the start of therapy
    and testosterone shots at the very start. [QUOTE]

    This type of thinking is extremely incorrect.

    One should NEVER start HRT right away with hcG.

    We need to establish a baseline value on how a individual person will react to exogenous testosterone being administered.

    Everyone is different, we simply cannot guess on how a person will react. This is why we start with one thing at a time. The testes will be perfectly fine without hcG for the first month, and you won't necessarily "crash".

    Once we get a baseline reading for BW after T has been administered, and we have a feeling how the person has been reacting, especially TT and E2 wise, and we make adjustments in exogenous T and AI, THEN we add hcG. The theory is, and I STRONGLY agree with it, that once T and dose of T being administered, and E and AI stuff is in line, adding hcG won't upset this delicate balance.

    If you add in hcG right away at the start of therapy it will throw everything off.

    And JansZ you know my feelings on why a person should start with a transdermal first.

  9. I've got a couple of questions for you, Plymouth:

    1. If you think transdermals are the way to go, do you recommend the brand names or a compounded gel? What %age/dose to start?

    2. How do I get my PCP to prescribe a compounded product?

    3. What about Nebido? Good article in M/D this month. Seems to raise everything gradually, although they were suggesting follow up shots could be at 9 weeks versus 14.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    I've got a couple of questions for you, Plymouth:

    1. If you think transdermals are the way to go, do you recommend the brand names or a compounded gel? What %age/dose to start?

    2. How do I get my PCP to prescribe a compounded product?

    3. What about Nebido? Good article in M/D this month. Seems to raise everything gradually, although they were suggesting follow up shots could be at 9 weeks versus 14.
    1. I recommend the compound gel, for two reasons. First, it is cheaper. Second, BECAUSE it is compounded, the very nature of compounding drugs to change variables, it is STRONGER. That means your getting more T in less gel. So we are applying less gel. This is a big advantage.

    2. Physicians are sympathetic to their patients monetary issues. I suggest you go the money route. Simply explain to him/her that you can get your T for much cheaper via compouding pharmacy. Find compouding pharmacy in your area via google. Print out page listing prices and show him.

    3. My issues with Nebido are the same with all injects - they completely ignore the daily "Pulses" and rythym of natural testosterone production. T is supposed to be highest at beginning of day and drop down at the end of the day for circadian rhythm. For these process, transdermals simply cannot be beat, hands down they are superior, even to nebido

  11. Rick,
    I also recommend everyone start with an average of 5mg of T per day, and adjust from there.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Rick,
    I also recommend everyone start with an average of 5mg of T per day, and adjust from there.
    Plymouth-

    OK, the idea of a gel makes sense, I had never heard the circadian rhythm explained before.

    My only real issue with the gel heretofore had been the higher relative conversion to DHT reported and my concern about losing hair. (Does anyone know if you can order Dr. John's shampoo without being a full fledged patient or is that a prescription item also?)

    My physician is understanding and I have spoken with the local compounding pharmacy (25 minute drive) who has told me they can compound a gel. Specifically, what would I ask my physician to prescribe? i.e. XX grams of XX percent testosterone.

    And if I understand you correctly, your opinion is to start with the gel only, retest levels in XXX weeks, then get estrogen in line (arimidex? clomid?), retest again, THEN consider HcG.

    Lastly, I have heard about skipping the gel one day a week - what is this for? Is this a rhythm issue also?

  13. Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Plymouth-

    OK, the idea of a gel makes sense, I had never heard the circadian rhythm explained before.

    My only real issue with the gel heretofore had been the higher relative conversion to DHT reported and my concern about losing hair. (Does anyone know if you can order Dr. John's shampoo without being a full fledged patient or is that a prescription item also?)

    My physician is understanding and I have spoken with the local compounding pharmacy (25 minute drive) who has told me they can compound a gel. Specifically, what would I ask my physician to prescribe? i.e. XX grams of XX percent testosterone.

    And if I understand you correctly, your opinion is to start with the gel only, retest levels in XXX weeks, then get estrogen in line (arimidex? clomid?), retest again, THEN consider HcG.

    Lastly, I have heard about skipping the gel one day a week - what is this for? Is this a rhythm issue also?
    Check this out - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm

    I have wrote about the DHT issue extensively before. IMO this is way overblown and many are simply reaching for an excuse to shoot for injects. This is false thinking.

    Circulating DHT levels and issues such as acne, balding and BPH is not directly coorelated. This is a very complex process. It is involved with FT - DHT conversion via 5 alpha enzyme on skin(acne) scalp(balding and prostate(BPH). Bad estrogen metabolites and aging are at play and increase action of this enzyme that converts FT- DHT via enzyme. DIM + TMG can be used to prevent bad estrogen metabolites at play.

    DHT is a very important hormone. As long as levels are kept within range you will be fine.

    Pregnenolone is now added in most cutting edge HRT programs like Dr John uses. Pregenelone causes a small rise in progesterone, which helps prevent T to DHT conversion, so with the addition of preg, DHT is kept in check. Pregenelone also fills in metabolic pathways and causes a rise in not just T, but an increase in other androgenic hormones such as the various andros, DHEA and others. Very ingenious.

    Shoot for max strength T cream via compounding pharmacy. Testosterone Gel (Compounded) 10%

    Start with gel first then restest. The AI of choice now(if needed) is arimidex. It can be pricey but cheaper alternatives are available. PM me. Starting dose is .25mg E3D. Clomid is not needed.

    I am not familiar with skipping a day using transdermals yet, this is something I will talk to Dr John about when I see him.

  14. Plymouth-

    Thanks again, I am thinking of just driving to Michigan for the day as opposed to going through my PCP. As I understand it, I only need to physically make the trip once and it might be easier.

    Regardless, I am going to have my PCP run the labwork, as he is open to treatment himself and I can get coverage for it.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    1.

    3. My issues with Nebido are the same with all injects - they completely ignore the daily "Pulses" and rythym of natural testosterone production. T is supposed to be highest at beginning of day and drop down at the end of the day for circadian rhythm. For these process, transdermals simply cannot be beat, hands down they are superior, even to nebido
    Is it yr opinon that this slow releasing injection is better than T cyp or other injections since u say "even to nebido" ?

  16. Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    3. My issues with Nebido are the same with all injects - they completely ignore the daily "Pulses" and rythym of natural testosterone production. T is supposed to be highest at beginning of day and drop down at the end of the day for circadian rhythm. For these process, transdermals simply cannot be beat, hands down they are superior, even to nebido
    Gel aplication is not even close in replication of circadian rhythm.
    Replication of circadian rhythm is most likely impossible and its benefits are overrated.

    Few people that are on pellets report most happy outcomes.

    Vforcer2 at first abbandon pellets due to cost, now he is back on pellets. I think the price is going down.
    ---------------------------
    My problem with pellets is that they are more or less a cookie cutter method. Last about 3 months.
    In that time TotalT level (gradually) drops from about 1200 to 800.
    No account for SHBG levels, for some TT on pellets may be too much, for others not enough. Possibly those who are happy require this particular TT levels.
    SHBG rises with age, possibly pellets are good for large portion of seniors and younger men with higher SHBG.

  17. I do like the idea of the Nebido injections being 8 - 12 weeks apart after the preliminary loading phase.

    I wonder how you would incorporate hCG into this. Would it be 100 iu E3D? In the M/D article this month it was noted that hCG was not needed to get test levels to normalize upon cessation, whatever that means.

    I think a drawback might be price, though; it's a new, patented drug and they're going to have to make their advertising money back somehow.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    I do like the idea of the Nebido injections being 8 - 12 weeks apart after the preliminary loading phase.

    I wonder how you would incorporate hCG into this. Would it be 100 iu E3D? In the M/D article this month it was noted that hCG was not needed to get test levels to normalize upon cessation, whatever that means.

    I think a drawback might be price, though; it's a new, patented drug and they're going to have to make their advertising money back somehow.
    I think there is a study that says about 110iu/day or even slightly more makes testis produce close to 100% capacity (capacity= whatewer they are able to produce).

    Since usually we want to do shots as least as we can,
    250iu/E2D is commonly used.

    My testis production is nill, to keep their size I use 500iu E3D, that coincides with my E3D T shots.
    ============================== =====
    If I do one or two shots at the sitting, for me it is same.
    So I consider E3D (T+hcg) routine more convenient and beneficial, than

    T 1/week plus 2 days of HCG, that is 3 days with shots in a week, infrequent T shots, causing disstress in some.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Plymouth-

    Thanks again, I am thinking of just driving to Michigan for the day as opposed to going through my PCP. As I understand it, I only need to physically make the trip once and it might be easier.

    Regardless, I am going to have my PCP run the labwork, as he is open to treatment himself and I can get coverage for it.
    That would be best, IMO.

    Forget the labwork. The gold standard is to get Urines IMO. Dr John will run that for you.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    . Second, BECAUSE it is compounded, the very nature of compounding drugs to change variables, it is STRONGER. That means your getting more T in less gel. So we are applying less gel. This is a big advantage.

    Not necessarily. It all depends on what concentration the physician prescribes. There is also an upper limit to the concentration. I don't remember what Dr. John said the maximum concentration is, but above that concentration, the T tends to stay on the surface of the skin in a "frost,'' rather than being absorbed.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Plymouth-

    Thanks again, I am thinking of just driving to Michigan for the day as opposed to going through my PCP. As I understand it, I only need to physically make the trip once and it might be easier.

    Regardless, I am going to have my PCP run the labwork, as he is open to treatment himself and I can get coverage for it.
    Run as many tests as you can talk your doc into.
    My list of tests cost $3500 fully documented need for it by my doctor, fully paid by insurance.

    In my experience the hard part is documentation.

    but in my list you have both
    items to test
    and
    ICD-9 codes

    If you have known thyroid or adrenals problems you may want to expand my list in that areas.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post
    Not necessarily. It all depends on what concentration the physician prescribes. There is also an upper limit to the concentration. I don't remember what Dr. John said the maximum concentration is, but above that concentration, the T tends to stay on the surface of the skin in a "frost,'' rather than being absorbed.
    LOL please tell me you didn't think I did not know that

  23. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I think there is a study that says about 110iu/day or even slightly more makes testis produce close to 100% capacity (capacity= whatewer they are able to produce).

    Since usually we want to do shots as least as we can,
    250iu/E2D is commonly used.

    My testis production is nill, to keep their size I use 500iu E3D, that coincides with my E3D T shots.
    ============================== =====
    If I do one or two shots at the sitting, for me it is same.
    So I consider E3D (T+hcg) routine more convenient and beneficial, than

    T 1/week plus 2 days of HCG, that is 3 days with shots in a week, infrequent T shots, causing disstress in some.
    JansZ,
    From some new research Im doing on hcG, keeping testicals alive for cosmetic and fertility purposes is looking like the secondary bonus to hcG.

    The real bonus is that fact that LH receptors are scattered throughout the body, and hcG mimics LH.

  24. Plymouth - does it make more sense to take the hCG all along while taking the test or taking it every few months (not necessarily stopping the test, as I now understand this is not the goal of HRT). I'm wondering if, for convenience, hCG could be used every few months for a weekly? period as opposed to E2D, etc...

    Also, today is the day I see my doctor to pick up lab requests. I am going to make sure I at least have the following:

    TSH, Free T3, Free T4, (my body temp is low, I'm not wondering if my symptoms are primarily from thyroid)

    Test, Free Test, E2, FSH, LH, DHT

    Anything else anyone can recommend that's mandatory? Sorry to be way OT.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Plymouth - does it make more sense to take the hCG all along while taking the test or taking it every few months (not necessarily stopping the test, as I now understand this is not the goal of HRT). I'm wondering if, for convenience, hCG could be used every few months for a weekly? period as opposed to E2D, etc...

    Also, today is the day I see my doctor to pick up lab requests. I am going to make sure I at least have the following:

    TSH, Free T3, Free T4, (my body temp is low, I'm not wondering if my symptoms are primarily from thyroid)

    Test, Free Test, E2, FSH, LH, DHT

    Anything else anyone can recommend that's mandatory? Sorry to be way OT.
    rick,
    we want to always stay on hcG while on HRT. Specific dose is 250IU E3D.

    I would not recommend you get any of that BW done. I am going to assume, and will probably be right, that it is not being done at Quest. BW in general can be difficult to give a overall general picture. Save your money.

    Ideally
    1. Urines(Rheins)
    2. Quest BW
    3. As a last last last last resort, threw Labcorp at LEF.

    In house labs are going to be invalid.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    LOL please tell me you didn't think I did not know that

    Of course you knew it, but it didn't seem like the original poster would have been able to extract those facts from your post.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Hard to say, I think both HCG and Arimidex are safe when used in doses mostly used for TRT.

    Human Growth Hormone, HGH,
    I have cancer, liposarcoma.
    Some cancers are promoted by HGH, my cancer is within that group, I will not use HGH.

    All this is rather cutting edge, hard to find definitive information.

    Lately there was a thread on Sermorelin.

    Sermorelin..better than HGH?

    Sermorelin induces body to produce its own HGH.

    It is going to be tougher and tougher to figure out.
    ============================== ================

    With your TotalT=425 you have little choice, you have to use testosterone.
    You do have certain amount of choice about HCG.
    If you do not care about preserwing fertility, do not use HCG, your testis will shrink but that is cosmetics at this point.

    Make sure that you get more thorough test than just testosterone, usually people who have low T shortly find out about other problems that they have.

    Start with good blood test. Use mine list here, post #44.
    You may want to peruse the whole thread.
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Often people start on Tgels, creams etc. Transdermals do not work for certain group of people. For some they work.
    Try to spend as liitle time as possible on transdermals.
    If you find they do not work for you go ASAP for injections.
    Make sure they are SubQ 31ga needles, rather than big nails.
    Here usualy doc may want to give you only smal dose of Testosterone, no HCG and se if that would work.
    After your testis are shrunk, they make attempt at reviwing them, give you script for HCG.

    I wish I could have started with higher dose of T and HCG righ away.

    On my thread:
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
    I figured out how to get to proper injected T-dose quicker.
    You need to have SHBG value to figure that out.

    When time comes I can help you figure out your initial dose.

    Make sure you do long blood test, will save you tons of grief.
    JanSz, in this quote you suggest using a 31gauge needle, is that for HCG or Test Cyp? I didnt think you could get Test through 31gauge.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by calvin6697 View Post
    JanSz, in this quote you suggest using a 31gauge needle, is that for HCG or Test Cyp? I didnt think you could get Test through 31gauge.
    I do this every three days and inject subq around navel.
    30units Depo-T and 500iu HCG Novarel (2 syringes)

    I draw 30 units and it takes 4 minutes,
    I then make sure that shot takes at least one minute.
    No pain whatsoever, no soreness.
    After shot is done I keep the needle in for another 30 second or so.
    It is very short needle, sometimes tiny tiny drop of oil shows up on skin, if I wait with pulling out the needle, then it happens less often.

    I use these needles;
    BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b
    BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

    these are also good:
    Colostomy Supplies, Pet Diabetic Supplies
    Easy Touch U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16 inch Short Needle 100/Box Sale Price: $13.99

    for larger doses
    BD Ultrafine U-100 Insulin Syringe 30 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2Inch 100/Box Price: $23.50
    BD Ultrafine U-100 Insulin Syringe 30 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2Inch 100/Box
    =============================
    Note;
    So it would fit into 3/10mL syringe
    I disolve my 10000iu Novarel using 5mL of bacteriostatic water
    500iu=25units

    I use my Novarel untill is all gone.
    10000/500=20 shots
    20*3=60 days

  29. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I do this every three days and inject subq around navel.
    30units Depo-T and 500iu HCG Novarel (2 syringes)

    I draw 30 units and it takes 4 minutes,
    I then make sure that shot takes at least one minute.
    No pain whatsoever, no soreness.

    I use these needles;
    BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b
    BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

    these are also good:
    Colostomy Supplies, Pet Diabetic Supplies
    Easy Touch U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16 inch Short Needle 100/Box Sale Price: $13.99

    for larger doses
    BD Ultrafine U-100 Insulin Syringe 30 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2Inch 100/Box Price: $23.50
    BD Ultrafine U-100 Insulin Syringe 30 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2Inch 100/Box
    Thanks very interesting.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by calvin6697 View Post
    Thanks very interesting.
    Note that I edited and added to my post while you were writting yours..
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