Long term use of HCG safe?

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  1. Let me ask another "subquestion":

    If one wanted to try to increase his own natural test production in such a way as to not have to be on exogenous testosterone for the rest of his life, is there a protocol for that? Like doing a course of HcG along with HGH to try to stimulate/grow Leydig cells? What would that look like?


  2. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    "I see fluctuations in consistency/hardness of my testicles now.
    The E2D was better for testicles but since I do not worry about fertility and my testicles are not producing T (I think), I let the convinience part decide on my schedule.
    Given testicals have responded(increase in size) I would say that they must be producing some T.

    If hcG was inneffective in such situation we would see no response in teste size.

    Something is going on, albiet we do not know how much of a t response.

    Dr John has pointed out various times about LH signals being scattered throughout body. It is this rationale why hcG is more important than hmG. hmG is basically artifical FHS. FSH is only within testicals, so rationale is that it has little effect in grand scheme of things outside of fertility.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    I cannot say that it equates to HCG but anecdotally I am responding with improved testie size, scrotal volume and ejaculate volume.

    My LH was diminshed weeks after beginning TRT. I have not since had any bloodwork for LH with TRT or PowerFULL.

    I was fertile before TRT and have no idea after. I also have a vasectomy.

    PowerFULL (NEW!)(90 caps) By USPLabs
    I am in almost the same boat as you. I too have had a vasectomy and don't have too much use for my nuts now that I am on TRT other than cosmetic reasons. I hear ya about the Powerfull (I buy the bulk version), although I haven't used it since I have been on TRT. I was thinking about trying LJ100 since it is claimed to be the "Herbal HCG"
    SupremeMuscle.com: Bulk PowerFULL (100 gm) By USPLabs

  4. Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Given testicals have responded(increase in size) I would say that they must be producing some T.

    If hcG was inneffective in such situation we would see no response in teste size.

    Something is going on, albiet we do not know how much of a t response.

    Dr John has pointed out various times about LH signals being scattered throughout body. It is this rationale why hcG is more important than hmG. hmG is basically artifical FHS. FSH is only within testicals, so rationale is that it has little effect in grand scheme of things outside of fertility.
    Yep the little guys are starting to grow again feels SO GOOD. Only thing I miss is that makes the other look smaller OH well can not have everything can we.

    250ius hcg every 3 rd day works good..now we just have to wait to see it does with my e2 SIGH !!
    I do notice my muscle getting fuller and harder looking could this be the e2 coming in check from being so low ?

    Can any one find credible evidence that fish oils lower shbg ?

  5. When I see my doc for my first follow up next month I am going to bring him Dr. Johns papers about HCG. I know Dr's. in general hate it when you do that, but I don't feel like he is helping me because he doesn't even know what effects E2 have on the male body. When I asked him about it he gave me the "deer in the headlights" look. I just can't switch Endos because I am in the military and it took a year to just get this far. So, I want this guy to help me, but I don't want to P*** him off because he is the only chance that I got and at least he has me on test cyp. I can get the Arimidex myself (I got some on the way just in case), the HCG is not necessary, but it would be nice.
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  6. does any1 have solid proof or even a study indicating that overdoing hcg can damage Leydig cells in humans? Im gonna need something to show my doc if indeed its true.

    typical protocall here are hcg 3x1500iu / week and he says he has guys who been doing this for years. Guess they use it as sole trt.

  7. Rick,
    The HCG did not effect me in other ways that I am aware of. That said, I did not have any depression problems before HCG. I guess I was cranky while on low T but I was on androgel for 4 years before I switched to HCG so I can't say if it helped my mood I guess. I know many men do have depression and other emotional issues when T is very low so your question is very valid but for me it was not an issue. Also, I should say that even though HCG by itself does not work for me, I feel best on the 4 days a week I take HCG. I take T cyp on Wed and HCG on Sat thru Tue.

    Good question also above about any studies on HCG desensitizing leydig cells. I have taken this for gospel since I have read it so many times and Dr Shippen has told me this but I do not know of studies. There may not be any and this may be anecdotal evidence from Dr Shippen and other pioneers in this area. Actually if there were studies to show this I doubt the ASCE guidlines for HCG protocol would call for such high doses as it does.

    In any event here is the argument to use with your doctor. You always want to take the least dosage possible of any drug as long as it works for you. Why take any more than you need. In the case of HCG, according to Dr. Shippen, if your dose is too high the result is your E2 rapidly rises while your T only goes up marginally from the extra dose above the optimal level for your particular body.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    When I was on Androgel only, for few years, my testis shrunk to nothing, as expected.

    I started HCG in feb 2007 and within a month size of my testis came back.

    I started HCG E2D 250iu in Feb 2007.
    Since 6/19/2007 I am on 500iu E3D, possibly two days free of HCG makes my testis fluctuate hardness wise. They are newer as hard as they used to be in my hey days.

    But the pines works all right, so I do not worry too much.
    Can you explain the time frame for shrinkage? How did this effect libido, latency to climax and how did adding HCG change things?

  9. Here is my overarching question about TRT and HcG in general:

    1. You have low testosterone so you start testosterone therapy.
    2. You feel good for a while
    3. The added testosterone supresses your HPT axis, causing your body's production to lower.
    4. You don't feel so good anymore.

    Don't you almost have to use HcG or add more test or something at that point? How does that all work?

    Also, has anyone here used Nebido? There's a great article about it Muscular Development this month as a means for TRT in hypogonadal men. It talks about a German study in which men had success and said estradiol levels did not increas much on the drug because it was evenly released or something like that.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by TiredOldFart View Post
    Can you explain the time frame for shrinkage? How did this effect libido, latency to climax and how did adding HCG change things?
    I started on 5gram, one packet of Androgel.
    When I started my TotalT~300
    At first it was very good, then in (I think) in few months it started going downhill.
    Also during that time my balls disappeared.
    I did not knew about balls at that time so I was not reay payng attention to that.
    But it took long time, say six monts for them to be gone.

    It took 30 days on HCG to get the balls back.
    As far as I can tell, I do not have any sensation, benefits or otherwise from using HCG.

    I am using Novarel.
    I am using it until it is gone.
    I do not see any difference (balls size etc) when I am starting fresh vial or when I am on the end of the vial, in 80 days or so latter.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Here is my overarching question about TRT and HcG in general:

    1. You have low testosterone so you start testosterone therapy.
    2. You feel good for a while
    3. The added testosterone supresses your HPT axis, causing your body's production to lower.
    4. You don't feel so good anymore.

    Don't you almost have to use HcG or add more test or something at that point? How does that all work?

    Also, has anyone here used Nebido? There's a great article about it Muscular Development this month as a means for TRT in hypogonadal men. It talks about a German study in which men had success and said estradiol levels did not increas much on the drug because it was evenly released or something like that.
    Points
    1.
    2.
    3.
    4.
    are correct
    conclusion is not
    Correctness or incorrectness is in eye of beholder.

    There is always adjustment period.

    When ones goal is to reach stable condition ASAP, one should use HCG at the start of therapy
    and testosterone shots at the very start. And I am talking about tiny, did I said tiny 5/16" long, needles for both T+hcg shots, not the 1.5" long nails driven into tender flesh that hurt next 2-3 days.

    Just looking at those needles one thinks of everything else, gells, tcream, anything but those needles, and forget about frequent injections.

    There are always other considerations.

    1. one is done with steroid cycles and would like to come back to more normal life

    2. newer used steroids, but is hoping that there is a way to make his balls work

    3. one likes to know if hi is primary or secondary, like if that would give him some gain or other satisfaction.

    4. desires to father child is only valid excuse in my book.
    But here doctors unnecessarily put men thru hardship and deppressive state of mind due to low T. One can be on T shots plus HCG and be fertile, when problems arrise add HMG for a year. There is no need to drive testosterone down in mean time. Somebody attempting to be a father needs all the energy he can muster. Fatherhood is big job for the next couple of decades, at least.

    5. there are other variants, most notable, uncooperative doctors, or doctors who want to experiment to broaden their expertise, that I can understand, little choice, except stating you goal to doctor and telling him of no desire for much experimentation.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by nallepuh View Post
    does any1 have solid proof or even a study indicating that overdoing hcg can damage Leydig cells in humans? Im gonna need something to show my doc if indeed its true.

    typical protocall here are hcg 3x1500iu / week and he says he has guys who been doing this for years. Guess they use it as sole trt.
    Dr Johns protocol on hcG, it is a sticky at the top of page.

    Your Dr's hcG protocol is stone age and completely backwards

  13. [QUOTE=JanSz;961595], one should use HCG at the start of therapy
    and testosterone shots at the very start. [QUOTE]

    This type of thinking is extremely incorrect.

    One should NEVER start HRT right away with hcG.

    We need to establish a baseline value on how a individual person will react to exogenous testosterone being administered.

    Everyone is different, we simply cannot guess on how a person will react. This is why we start with one thing at a time. The testes will be perfectly fine without hcG for the first month, and you won't necessarily "crash".

    Once we get a baseline reading for BW after T has been administered, and we have a feeling how the person has been reacting, especially TT and E2 wise, and we make adjustments in exogenous T and AI, THEN we add hcG. The theory is, and I STRONGLY agree with it, that once T and dose of T being administered, and E and AI stuff is in line, adding hcG won't upset this delicate balance.

    If you add in hcG right away at the start of therapy it will throw everything off.

    And JansZ you know my feelings on why a person should start with a transdermal first.

  14. I've got a couple of questions for you, Plymouth:

    1. If you think transdermals are the way to go, do you recommend the brand names or a compounded gel? What %age/dose to start?

    2. How do I get my PCP to prescribe a compounded product?

    3. What about Nebido? Good article in M/D this month. Seems to raise everything gradually, although they were suggesting follow up shots could be at 9 weeks versus 14.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    I've got a couple of questions for you, Plymouth:

    1. If you think transdermals are the way to go, do you recommend the brand names or a compounded gel? What %age/dose to start?

    2. How do I get my PCP to prescribe a compounded product?

    3. What about Nebido? Good article in M/D this month. Seems to raise everything gradually, although they were suggesting follow up shots could be at 9 weeks versus 14.
    1. I recommend the compound gel, for two reasons. First, it is cheaper. Second, BECAUSE it is compounded, the very nature of compounding drugs to change variables, it is STRONGER. That means your getting more T in less gel. So we are applying less gel. This is a big advantage.

    2. Physicians are sympathetic to their patients monetary issues. I suggest you go the money route. Simply explain to him/her that you can get your T for much cheaper via compouding pharmacy. Find compouding pharmacy in your area via google. Print out page listing prices and show him.

    3. My issues with Nebido are the same with all injects - they completely ignore the daily "Pulses" and rythym of natural testosterone production. T is supposed to be highest at beginning of day and drop down at the end of the day for circadian rhythm. For these process, transdermals simply cannot be beat, hands down they are superior, even to nebido

  16. Rick,
    I also recommend everyone start with an average of 5mg of T per day, and adjust from there.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Rick,
    I also recommend everyone start with an average of 5mg of T per day, and adjust from there.
    Plymouth-

    OK, the idea of a gel makes sense, I had never heard the circadian rhythm explained before.

    My only real issue with the gel heretofore had been the higher relative conversion to DHT reported and my concern about losing hair. (Does anyone know if you can order Dr. John's shampoo without being a full fledged patient or is that a prescription item also?)

    My physician is understanding and I have spoken with the local compounding pharmacy (25 minute drive) who has told me they can compound a gel. Specifically, what would I ask my physician to prescribe? i.e. XX grams of XX percent testosterone.

    And if I understand you correctly, your opinion is to start with the gel only, retest levels in XXX weeks, then get estrogen in line (arimidex? clomid?), retest again, THEN consider HcG.

    Lastly, I have heard about skipping the gel one day a week - what is this for? Is this a rhythm issue also?

  18. Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Plymouth-

    OK, the idea of a gel makes sense, I had never heard the circadian rhythm explained before.

    My only real issue with the gel heretofore had been the higher relative conversion to DHT reported and my concern about losing hair. (Does anyone know if you can order Dr. John's shampoo without being a full fledged patient or is that a prescription item also?)

    My physician is understanding and I have spoken with the local compounding pharmacy (25 minute drive) who has told me they can compound a gel. Specifically, what would I ask my physician to prescribe? i.e. XX grams of XX percent testosterone.

    And if I understand you correctly, your opinion is to start with the gel only, retest levels in XXX weeks, then get estrogen in line (arimidex? clomid?), retest again, THEN consider HcG.

    Lastly, I have heard about skipping the gel one day a week - what is this for? Is this a rhythm issue also?
    Check this out - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm

    I have wrote about the DHT issue extensively before. IMO this is way overblown and many are simply reaching for an excuse to shoot for injects. This is false thinking.

    Circulating DHT levels and issues such as acne, balding and BPH is not directly coorelated. This is a very complex process. It is involved with FT - DHT conversion via 5 alpha enzyme on skin(acne) scalp(balding and prostate(BPH). Bad estrogen metabolites and aging are at play and increase action of this enzyme that converts FT- DHT via enzyme. DIM + TMG can be used to prevent bad estrogen metabolites at play.

    DHT is a very important hormone. As long as levels are kept within range you will be fine.

    Pregnenolone is now added in most cutting edge HRT programs like Dr John uses. Pregenelone causes a small rise in progesterone, which helps prevent T to DHT conversion, so with the addition of preg, DHT is kept in check. Pregenelone also fills in metabolic pathways and causes a rise in not just T, but an increase in other androgenic hormones such as the various andros, DHEA and others. Very ingenious.

    Shoot for max strength T cream via compounding pharmacy. Testosterone Gel (Compounded) 10%

    Start with gel first then restest. The AI of choice now(if needed) is arimidex. It can be pricey but cheaper alternatives are available. PM me. Starting dose is .25mg E3D. Clomid is not needed.

    I am not familiar with skipping a day using transdermals yet, this is something I will talk to Dr John about when I see him.

  19. Plymouth-

    Thanks again, I am thinking of just driving to Michigan for the day as opposed to going through my PCP. As I understand it, I only need to physically make the trip once and it might be easier.

    Regardless, I am going to have my PCP run the labwork, as he is open to treatment himself and I can get coverage for it.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    1.

    3. My issues with Nebido are the same with all injects - they completely ignore the daily "Pulses" and rythym of natural testosterone production. T is supposed to be highest at beginning of day and drop down at the end of the day for circadian rhythm. For these process, transdermals simply cannot be beat, hands down they are superior, even to nebido
    Is it yr opinon that this slow releasing injection is better than T cyp or other injections since u say "even to nebido" ?

  21. Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    3. My issues with Nebido are the same with all injects - they completely ignore the daily "Pulses" and rythym of natural testosterone production. T is supposed to be highest at beginning of day and drop down at the end of the day for circadian rhythm. For these process, transdermals simply cannot be beat, hands down they are superior, even to nebido
    Gel aplication is not even close in replication of circadian rhythm.
    Replication of circadian rhythm is most likely impossible and its benefits are overrated.

    Few people that are on pellets report most happy outcomes.

    Vforcer2 at first abbandon pellets due to cost, now he is back on pellets. I think the price is going down.
    ---------------------------
    My problem with pellets is that they are more or less a cookie cutter method. Last about 3 months.
    In that time TotalT level (gradually) drops from about 1200 to 800.
    No account for SHBG levels, for some TT on pellets may be too much, for others not enough. Possibly those who are happy require this particular TT levels.
    SHBG rises with age, possibly pellets are good for large portion of seniors and younger men with higher SHBG.

  22. I do like the idea of the Nebido injections being 8 - 12 weeks apart after the preliminary loading phase.

    I wonder how you would incorporate hCG into this. Would it be 100 iu E3D? In the M/D article this month it was noted that hCG was not needed to get test levels to normalize upon cessation, whatever that means.

    I think a drawback might be price, though; it's a new, patented drug and they're going to have to make their advertising money back somehow.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    I do like the idea of the Nebido injections being 8 - 12 weeks apart after the preliminary loading phase.

    I wonder how you would incorporate hCG into this. Would it be 100 iu E3D? In the M/D article this month it was noted that hCG was not needed to get test levels to normalize upon cessation, whatever that means.

    I think a drawback might be price, though; it's a new, patented drug and they're going to have to make their advertising money back somehow.
    I think there is a study that says about 110iu/day or even slightly more makes testis produce close to 100% capacity (capacity= whatewer they are able to produce).

    Since usually we want to do shots as least as we can,
    250iu/E2D is commonly used.

    My testis production is nill, to keep their size I use 500iu E3D, that coincides with my E3D T shots.
    ============================== =====
    If I do one or two shots at the sitting, for me it is same.
    So I consider E3D (T+hcg) routine more convenient and beneficial, than

    T 1/week plus 2 days of HCG, that is 3 days with shots in a week, infrequent T shots, causing disstress in some.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Plymouth-

    Thanks again, I am thinking of just driving to Michigan for the day as opposed to going through my PCP. As I understand it, I only need to physically make the trip once and it might be easier.

    Regardless, I am going to have my PCP run the labwork, as he is open to treatment himself and I can get coverage for it.
    That would be best, IMO.

    Forget the labwork. The gold standard is to get Urines IMO. Dr John will run that for you.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    . Second, BECAUSE it is compounded, the very nature of compounding drugs to change variables, it is STRONGER. That means your getting more T in less gel. So we are applying less gel. This is a big advantage.

    Not necessarily. It all depends on what concentration the physician prescribes. There is also an upper limit to the concentration. I don't remember what Dr. John said the maximum concentration is, but above that concentration, the T tends to stay on the surface of the skin in a "frost,'' rather than being absorbed.
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