Testosterone Protocol

kieroneil

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I wanted to get some opinions on a Testosterone protocol that was just recommended by a clinic in Florida. I was really happy with the clinic and the doctor. He seemed very knowledgeable and was a patient himself. He also said that I could do the injections myself and that they would make adjustments based on symptoms instead of getting new bloodtests every cycle. I personally like that approach.

My info:
Age: 39 Gender: M
Athletic, but not a body builder. I do mostly endurance-type events like marathons, adventure races and long-distance biking. I mainly want to get my energy & libido back and lose the extra 20-30lbs around my waist.

Testosterone, Free 7.09
Testosterone, Total 218.5

IGF-1 222
FSH 2.68
LH 2.60
Estradiol 17.04

T3, Total 100.8
T4, Free 0.938
TSH 1.23

(Let me know if you need any more info)

The Protocol is this:
Cycle 10 weeks on, 4 weeks off

1. Testosterone Cypionate inject (1)cc per week
2. Anastrozole take (1)tab per week

Off cycle(complete after test cycle start 2 weeks after last test injection)

HCG inject 2000 units 1st 5 days, 1000 units next 10 days.
Clomid take 1 tab daily

How does that sound?
 

smc252

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The Protocol is this:
Cycle 10 weeks on, 4 weeks off

1. Testosterone Cypionate inject (1)cc per week
2. Anastrozole take (1)tab per week

Off cycle(complete after test cycle start 2 weeks after last test injection)

HCG inject 2000 units 1st 5 days, 1000 units next 10 days.
Clomid take 1 tab daily

How does that sound?
It always helps when people tell us what range they are using ;)

What is this "off cycle" crap? If you are low on testosterone, you need to stay on it..
Besides, HCG is suppressive, you never ever run it in the post cycle therapy.

Something more like this is deemed:
weekly cyp injection (~100mg adjust after 2 week blood test)
adex (only if needed, your e2 is pretty low so far)
hcg 2x week at 500iu
 

kieroneil

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The reason they gave for the off-cycle was so that my boys don't go completely out of business.

They said that this encourages them to keep producing testosterone on their own and not shutting off.

Another question I have is what would be the free-market cost of that protocol if I went and got it through another source? I just want to compare it to what I'm paying to make sure that I'm not getting shafted too bad.
 

plymouth city

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It always helps when people tell us what range they are using ;)

What is this "off cycle" crap? If you are low on testosterone, you need to stay on it..
Besides, HCG is suppressive, you never ever run it in the post cycle therapy.

Something more like this is deemed:
weekly cyp injection (~100mg adjust after 2 week blood test)
adex (only if needed, your e2 is pretty low so far)
hcg 2x week at 500iu
HcG is not suppressive in short cycles. It is pretty much gold standard in post cycle therapy - all AAS users are using it now.

Yes, this off time worries me. The fact that this clinic even has this on the protocol is wack. Run, my friend, run.

Free and TT are both low. The fact that E2 is low means it isn't an E issue.

FYI, I would avoid biking at all costs. Long term use of biking leads to testicular damage. Yep, its the bike seat. I bike around my city alot, I try to keep it short and to stay off the seat as much as possible. If I do, I try and keep my balls away from the seat area. :head:

IGF-1 a little low, but I would wait on that.

TSH and T4 free are useless tests. Again, I don't like your clinic or doctor(whats new LOL)

Way to much hCG. Way to much. You need 500 - 750IU per WEEK.

Clomid with this program? Why the fuk? Seriously these guys are retarded. :sick:

T3 what is the range?

Why the Anastrozole? Your E2 is perfect. Are they ASSUMING (Idiots) that E2 is gonna go way high on 100mg per week? Why would it? It doesn't in everyone. They are guessing.

This clinic should be shut down. :smite:
 

smc252

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HcG is not suppressive in short cycles. It is pretty much gold standard in post cycle therapy - all anabolic steroids users are using it now.
I'm a member on 3 or 4 steroid boards, as they seem to know more about endocrinology then most doctors. HCG IS suppressive! I have yet to see proof otherwise. You do NOT run this in PCT or you will be further shut-down. Steroid users are indeed using it, but they learned rather quick to use it towards the end of their cycle but not during recovery. I am guessing the clomid is being used "pct" to try and recover after cycling his TRT... I'm gonna puke just from typing PCT and TRT together!

This clinic has a LOT to learn. Before being treated, soak up as much info from this site as you can, then go back to that doctor and say "This is what I have learned about up-to-date TRT and this is what I want to do." And see what is said. Maybe even print our Dr John's papers?
 
neoborn

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FYI, I would avoid biking at all costs. Long term use of biking leads to testicular damage. Yep, its the bike seat. I bike around my city alot, I try to keep it short and to stay off the seat as much as possible. If I do, I try and keep my balls away from the seat area. :head:
How about some of these?

http://www.derri-air.com/prostate-relief.htm

My father in law loves this one and previously had prostate problems:

http://www.tesco-shopping.com/bikeseat.htm
 
JanSz

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I wanted to get some opinions on a Testosterone protocol that was just recommended by a clinic in Florida. I was really happy with the clinic and the doctor. He seemed very knowledgeable and was a patient himself. He also said that I could do the injections myself and that they would make adjustments based on symptoms instead of getting new bloodtests every cycle. I personally like that approach.

My info:
Age: 39 Gender: M
Athletic, but not a body builder. I do mostly endurance-type events like marathons, adventure races and long-distance biking. I mainly want to get my energy & libido back and lose the extra 20-30lbs around my waist.

Testosterone, Free 7.09
Testosterone, Total 218.5

IGF-1 222
FSH 2.68
LH 2.60
Estradiol 17.04

T3, Total 100.8
T4, Free 0.938
TSH 1.23

(Let me know if you need any more info)

The Protocol is this:
Cycle 10 weeks on, 4 weeks off

1. Testosterone Cypionate inject (1)cc per week
2. Anastrozole take (1)tab per week

Off cycle(complete after test cycle start 2 weeks after last test injection)

HCG inject 2000 units 1st 5 days, 1000 units next 10 days.
Clomid take 1 tab daily

How does that sound?
Repost your blood test, add units and ranges.
Make sure you have
SHBG
FreeT3
FreeT4
DHEA
Cortisol
Estradiol sensitive
post balance of all that you have

Good news:
You have a source of scripts (very important)


bad news, the design of your treatment

After you repost your test I will just post what we would normally do here.
 

kieroneil

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Repost your blood test, add units and ranges.
Make sure you have
SHBG
FreeT3
FreeT4
DHEA
Cortisol
Estradiol sensitive
post balance of all that you have

Good news:
You have a source of scripts (very important)


bad news, the design of your treatment

After you repost your test I will just post what we would normally do here.

Will do as soon as I get home.
 

kieroneil

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OK, here's the whole report. I took the blood test in the morning after 12 hours of fasting.
If the format isn't good on the screen then copy and paste it into notepad or word and it should format well.
An 'H' or an 'L' after the result indicates that the result is either High or Low of the reference range.

Test/ Result/ Ref/ Units
CBC
WBC 5.6 3.9-11.1 K/UL
RBC 4.59 4.2-6.0 M/UL
Hemoglobin 14.5 13.2-18.0 G/DL
Hematocrit 43.9 38.5-54.0 %
MCV 95.5 80.0-100.0 FL
MCH 31.7 26.0-34.0 PG
MCHC 33.2 31.0-37.0 G/DL
RDW 14.8 11.0-15.5 %
Platelet Count 341 140-400 K/UL
MPV 7.9 7.5-11.6 FL

Coronary Risk
Triglycerides 287 H <150 MG/DL
Cholesterol Total 249 H <200 MG/DL
HDL Cholesterol 54.1 >40 MG/DL
LDL Cholesterol 137.5 H <100 optimal MG/DL
Chol/HDL Ratio 4.6 <5.0

Endocrine EvaluationTestosterone, Free 7.09 2.4-12.2 NG/DL

General Chemistry
Glucose 105 H 65-100 MG/DL
BUN 17 6-20 MG/DL
Creatinine, Serum 1.0 .5-1.2 MG/DL
Sodium 140 133-145 MMOL/L
Potassium 5.3 H 3.3-5.1 MMOL/L
Chloride 103 96-108 MMOL/L
CO2 25 22-32 MMOL/L
Calcium 10.1 8.5-10.5 MG/DL
Total Protein 8.3 6.4-8.3 G/DL
Albumin 5.3 H 3.2-4.8 G/DL
Globulin 3.0 2.1-3.6 G/DL
Bilirubin, Total .6 0.0-1.0 MG/DL
Alkaline Phosphatase 69 35-129 U/L
ALT 60 H <42 U/L
AST 29 <39 U/L
A/G Ratio 1.77 0.8-2.0
BUN/Creat Ratio 17.0 7.3-21.7
Osmolality 281.30 275-300 MOSM/KG

Thyroid Testing
T3, Total 100.8 80-200 NG/DL
T4, Free 0.938 0.9-1.7 NG/DL
TSH 1.23 0.27-4.2 UIU/ML

Endocrine Evaluation
Insuline-Like Growth 222 109-284 NG/ML
FSH 2.68 1.5-12.4 MIU/ML
LH 2.60 1.7-8.6 MIU/ML
Estradiol 17.04 7.6-42.6 PG/ML
Testosterone, Total 218.5 L 280-800 NG/DL
Sex Hormone Bind 10.78 7-50 NMOL/L
Globulin

Tumor Markers
PSA, Total 0.613 0.0-4.0 NG/ML


Thanks for the input.
 
Last edited:

smc252

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Testosterone, Free 7.09 2.4-12.2 NG/DL

Thyroid Testing
T3, Total 100.8 80-200 NG/DL
T4, Free 0.938 0.9-1.7 NG/DL
TSH 1.23 0.27-4.2 UIU/ML

FSH 2.68 1.5-12.4 MIU/ML
LH 2.60 1.7-8.6 MIU/ML
Estradiol 17.04 7.6-42.6 PG/ML
Testosterone, Total 218.5 L 280-800 NG/DL
Looks like your thyroid is a bit off. Tsh should be closer to 2.0 as well. T4 should be quite a bit higher. I am now on 50mcg of T4 and my t4/tsh are very close to yours. We REALLY need to see FREE T3 to know if you're hypo, as it is much more active then T4.

Your free testosterone is below 50% in the range.

Total testosterone is really low. Good news is your body is making good use of what you have.

FSH/LH look a bit low to me.

Estradiol is nice and low. 10-30 is the optimal range.
 

kieroneil

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Looks like your thyroid is a bit off. Tsh should be closer to 2.0 as well. T4 should be quite a bit higher. I am now on 50mcg of T4 and my t4/tsh are very close to yours. We REALLY need to see FREE T3 to know if you're hypo, as it is much more active then T4.
Is there any natural way to boost thyroid levels?
 

smc252

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Is there any natural way to boost thyroid levels?
Natural.. sure.. Armour, but it is prescription only.

Not sure how much you know...YET, you will soon be an expert :)

TSH is a pituitary hormone, as is LH/FSH and ACTH. TSH stimulates the thyroid to produce the T4. T4 converts into T3 and is ~4X as strong as T4, MCG per MCG.

Check out www.stopthethyroidmadness.com they have a great forum and all!
 

kieroneil

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Check out www.stopthethyroidmadness.com they have a great forum and all!
Luckily I think I'm OK in the thyroid department after checking the symptom list. The only thing I have is reduced energy which I'm hoping the TRT takes care off.

There was some mention on that website and other places about Cortisol. My test didn't have anything labeled Cortisol that it was checking for. Is there a different name that the lab test goes by?
 

plymouth city

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I'm a member on 3 or 4 steroid boards, as they seem to know more about endocrinology then most doctors. HCG IS suppressive! ?


Me as well. And as I have said before, we could BLOW AWAY most endo/urologists in HRT matters - its not even close. If the internet age has tought us anything, its taught us that college degrees to measure intelligence is about as usefull as TSH is to test thyroid function - about as useless as the paper printed on it. Anyone can learn anything now, the rules have changed.

hCG short cycle, at 250 - 500 per week, should be fine for 4 weeks with no suppression. Throw in hMG for extra secruity and I do not see how one would get suppressed.
 
JanSz

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OK, here's the whole report. I took the blood test in the morning after 12 hours of fasting.
If the format isn't good on the screen then copy and paste it into notepad or word and it should format well.
An 'H' or an 'L' after the result indicates that the result is either High or Low of the reference range.

Test/ Result/ Ref/ Units
CBC
WBC 5.6 3.9-11.1 K/UL
RBC 4.59 4.2-6.0 M/UL
Hemoglobin 14.5 13.2-18.0 G/DL
Hematocrit 43.9 38.5-54.0 %
MCV 95.5 80.0-100.0 FL
MCH 31.7 26.0-34.0 PG
MCHC 33.2 31.0-37.0 G/DL
RDW 14.8 11.0-15.5 %
Platelet Count 341 140-400 K/UL
MPV 7.9 7.5-11.6 FL

Coronary Risk
Triglycerides 287 H <150 MG/DL
Cholesterol Total 249 H <200 MG/DL
HDL Cholesterol 54.1 >40 MG/DL
LDL Cholesterol 137.5 H <100 optimal MG/DL
Chol/HDL Ratio 4.6 <5.0

Endocrine EvaluationTestosterone, Free 7.09 2.4-12.2 NG/DL

General Chemistry
Glucose 105 H 65-100 MG/DL
BUN 17 6-20 MG/DL
Creatinine, Serum 1.0 .5-1.2 MG/DL
Sodium 140 133-145 MMOL/L
Potassium 5.3 H 3.3-5.1 MMOL/L
Chloride 103 96-108 MMOL/L
CO2 25 22-32 MMOL/L
Calcium 10.1 8.5-10.5 MG/DL
Total Protein 8.3 6.4-8.3 G/DL
Albumin 5.3 H 3.2-4.8 G/DL
Globulin 3.0 2.1-3.6 G/DL
Bilirubin, Total .6 0.0-1.0 MG/DL
Alkaline Phosphatase 69 35-129 U/L
ALT 60 H <42 U/L
AST 29 <39 U/L
A/G Ratio 1.77 0.8-2.0
BUN/Creat Ratio 17.0 7.3-21.7
Osmolality 281.30 275-300 MOSM/KG

Thyroid Testing
T3, Total 100.8 80-200 NG/DL
T4, Free 0.938 0.9-1.7 NG/DL
TSH 1.23 0.27-4.2 UIU/ML

Endocrine Evaluation
Insuline-Like Growth 222 109-284 NG/ML
FSH 2.68 1.5-12.4 MIU/ML
LH 2.60 1.7-8.6 MIU/ML
Estradiol 17.04 7.6-42.6 PG/ML
Testosterone, Total 218.5 L 280-800 NG/DL
Sex Hormone Bind 10.78 7-50 NMOL/L
Globulin

Tumor Markers
PSA, Total 0.613 0.0-4.0 NG/ML


Thanks for the input.
==========================================
Glucose 105
get tested
Hemoglobin A1C
insuline
---------------------------------------------------
Albumin 5.3 H
hmm, were you dehydrated
---------------------------------------------------
Get
FreeT3
tested, you most likely will be low on it.
Get enough Armour Thyroid to raise Freet3 to almost the top of the range. Retest and adjust Armour dose, you may need Synthroid at that time to get your FreeT4 to middle of the range. You are low on FreeT4 now, but do not do anything about it untill you are done with FreeT3 adjustment.
Watch ramping up the Armour. Have a cortef at hand and use it when called for. Get education at
stopthe thyroidmadness.com
board, befor you touch Armour and/or Cortef or Isocort.
Body temperature, pulse.
----------------------------------------------------
You are in rather big dodo in regard to SHBG.
This is your big problem.
Recheck any supplements that may lower it.
As long as you have SHBG that low you will not be able to supplement with Testosterone at any significant dose.
But your T is indeed low.
When supplementing with T do this blood test at Quest.:
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)

as result of that test you will get:
Testosterone Total (included in T panel)
Testosterone Free(included in T panel)
Testosterone Bioavailable(included in T panel)
SHBG(included in T panel)
--
When adding T to your body make sure that you add as much as need to get your
FreeT about= 250

assumung that your testis are not producing T and knowing that your
shbg=10.78
to get your
FreeT=250
you need TT=720
90mg/week of Depo-T would be enough for you plus HCG.
That is 0.45cc on insuline syringe per week or 45units
if you would use
E3D-- Tdose=45/7*3=19.5 units, HCGdose=500iu

I would do both T&hcg shots SubQ on the same day,
and have two days free of shots in between.
I am on that kind of schedule

My testis are not producing.
If you want to be little more carefull with testis production you may want E2D schedule

E2D--Tdose=45/7*2=13 units, hcgdose=250iu

Under any schedule retest after 2-3 months and adjust T dose so your freet=250

I use 31ga syringe for both of my schots.
I use 500IU hcg for it to fit into my 3/10cc syringe i dilute hcg ising 5ml water so I have
10000iu/5mL=2000iu/mL solution
500iu=0.25*2000=500-->25 units
250iu=0.125*2000=250-->12.5 units on syringe

my syringe
http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=HOP&Product_Code=4724290&Product_Count=&Category_Code=
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

there is same size syringe without half units markings
http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=HOP&Product_Code=M3136&Product_Count=&Category_Code=
Easy Touch U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16 inch Short Needle 100/Box Sale Price: $13.99
 

smc252

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The glucose was elevated due to the low testosterone.

The Albumin was high because he is hypothyroid.

:djparty:
 

kieroneil

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Sex Hormone Bind Globulin

This is your big problem.[/COLOR]
Recheck any supplements that may lower it.
As long as you have SHBG that low you will not be able to supplement with Testosterone at any significant dose.
Can you give me some more information about the SHBG level? Because it is so low does that mean that I can take test but it won't bind in any great quantity?

How do I raise that level?
 
JanSz

JanSz

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Can you give me some more information about the SHBG level? Because it is so low does that mean that I can take test but it won't bind in any great quantity?

How do I raise that level?
SHBG 10.78 (7-50) NMOL/L

You do not want to raise your TotalT level indiscriminately.
Your guide it by watching FreeT and BAT.
When supplementing with external T, you want to be on top range of either FreeT or BAT, leave the other where it comes.

Good test is only available from Quest, not everybody is able to go there.
Second best is a chart that dr Shippen is using.
FreeT as a (function of SHBG and TotalT)
I posted it in one of my posts.

SHBG is tough to rise. There is a thread on low SHBG started by James (something). Not much success.
Supposedly Nolva and Clomid rise SHBG. Do not have any supporting evidence plus both are rather to avoid due to sides.

Possibly somebody else will give you better advice.

I would say, re-examine your supplements and medications, make sure you are not taking something that lowers SHBG.

Supplements that lower SHBG:
Proviron
GH
Avena Sativa Extract/Green oat that contains Avenacosidas
Carao Extract
Urtica dioica aka Stinging nettle
Muira Puama
 
CF10

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Quick question, why would you want to raise SHBG. Wouldnt that make it harder to get to the top of the free T range?
 

kieroneil

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Shbg

Quick question, why would you want to raise SHBG. Wouldnt that make it harder to get to the top of the free T range?
I guess I made the assumption that a higher SHBG number = higher absorbtion [sic] of test.

JanSz wrote:
SHBG 10.78 (7-50) NMOL/L

You do not want to raise your TotalT level indiscriminately.
Your guide it by watching FreeT and BAT.
When supplementing with external T, you want to be on top range of either FreeT or BAT, leave the other where it comes.

Good test is only available from Quest, not everybody is able to go there.
There are Quest labs where I live. What is their test ID?
 
JanSz

JanSz

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I guess I made the assumption that a higher SHBG number = higher absorbtion [sic] of test.



There are Quest labs where I live. What is their test ID?
Your answer is down below within my whole list.


0 iodine
1 CBC w/ diff
2 Calcium
3 Carbon dioxide
4 Chloride
5 Copper, serum
6 Ferritin
7 Magnesium
8 Potasium
9 Selenium
10 Sodium
11 Zinc
12 Alkaline phosphase
13 ALT
14 AST
15 BUN/creatinine ratio
16 Creatinine
17 Globulin, calculated
18 Protein Total
19 Urea nitrogen
20 Bilirubin, Total
21 Bilirubin, Direct
22 EGFR non afr american
23 RPR W/Titer & Conf RFX RPR screen
24 C-reactive protein CRP
25 Fibrinogen
26 Hematocrit
27 Hemoglobin A1C
28 Homocysteine, cardio
29 Lipoprotein (A) Lp(A)
30 Folate, Serum
31 Folate, Serum
32 Cholesterol, Total
33 HDL cholesterol
34 cholesterol/HDL ratio
35 LDL chol, calculated
36 Triglycirides
37 VLDL
38 Vitamin A
39 Vitamin B12, serum
40 Vitamin D, panel
43 T3 Free
44 T3 uptake
45 T3,Total
46 T4,Free
47 T4,Total
48 TSH
49 Glucose, fasting
50 Insuline, serum
51 PSA, Total
52 PSA, %, free
53 IGF Binding protein-3
54 IGF-1
55 Aldosterone
56 Cortisol AM/PM
57 DHEA sulfate
58 Prolactin
59 FSH
60 LH
61 Progesterone
62 Pregnenolone
63 Estradiol, Bioavailable
64 Estradiol, Free
65 Estradiol, Fractionated, serum
66 Estradiol, Ultra-sensitive (is part of fractionated)
67 Estrone,serum (is part of fractionated)
68 Estrogens, Total, Serum
69 Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
70 Testosterone Total (included in T panel)
71 Testosterone Free(included in T panel)
72 Testosterone Bioavailable(included in T panel)
73 SHBG(included in T panel)
74 Albumin, serum(included in T panel)

75 Dihydrotestosterone DHT
 

plymouth city

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If Estradoil goes up, SHBG tends to follow.

If suppplementing with T on program, stay away from any AI's.

Get on good HRT program with no AI, watch SHBG fall in line.

Any prior AAS use? This will permantently damage SHBG
 

kieroneil

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If Estradoil goes up, SHBG tends to follow.

If suppplementing with T on program, stay away from any AI's.

Get on good HRT program with no AI, watch SHBG fall in line.

Any prior anabolic steroids use? This will permantently damage SHBG
I have never been on any anabolic steroids before.

What is AI?
 
CF10

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Sorry to keep intruding in the thread :) but I now have two questions:

JanSz: Why do you want him to raise his SHBG I thought it was good to have it low.

Plymouth: Why no AI? I thought AI's were sometimes necessary to control E2.

Sorry guys Im still learning, but you guys are great teachers.

EDIT: kieroneil - AI=Aromatase Inhibitor. They stop the conversion of test to estradiol.
 
JanSz

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Sorry to keep intruding in the thread :) but I now have two questions:

JanSz: Why do you want him to raise his SHBG I thought it was good to have it low.

Plymouth: Why no AI? I thought AI's were sometimes necessary to control E2.

Sorry guys Im still learning, but you guys are great teachers.

EDIT: kieroneil - AI=Aromatase Inhibitor. They stop the conversion of test to estradiol.
Good to have it low but not below about 20 or 25
Eventually you want to have certain minimum amount of testosterone within body bound or not.
 

kieroneil

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Plymouth: Why no AI? I thought AI's were sometimes necessary to control E2.

EDIT: kieroneil - AI=Aromatase Inhibitor. They stop the conversion of test to estradiol.
Is Anastrozal an Aromatase Inhibitor? I'm taking one tab of that a week with the test.

My doctor said that keeping estrogen to a minimum was best. Why would you want some of your test converted to estrogen?
 

plymouth city

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Sorry to keep intruding in the thread :) but I now have two questions:

JanSz: Why do you want him to raise his SHBG I thought it was good to have it low.

Plymouth: Why no AI? I thought AI's were sometimes necessary to control E2.

Sorry guys Im still learning, but you guys are great teachers.

EDIT: kieroneil - AI=Aromatase Inhibitor. They stop the conversion of test to estradiol.
This is true - However, in the case of having very low SHBG, I would stay away from AI's at the start until we get some aromitization going on. We need E2 to go up so SHBG goes up with it.

I would also like to see a person with very low SHBG to be on a transdermal as well, if possible. Why? Small, steady doses of T will prevent SHBG dropoff. Large doses of T will lower SHBG. So will large AI doses. This is why AAS users have permanent low SHBG.

We need some Estrogen action, this will raise SHBG. This has been proven to work in women taking birth control. There SHBG is 7 - 10 times higher than normal. FYI, it stays that way permantly. I am a staunch anti-birth control pill advocate. This is one of the reasons why, amoungst others. The crazy liberal feminazis will never tell you this though :)
 
JanSz

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This is true - However, in the case of having very low SHBG, I would stay away from AI's at the start until we get some aromitization going on. We need E2 to go up so SHBG goes up with it.

I would also like to see a person with very low SHBG to be on a transdermal as well, if possible. Why? Small, steady doses of T will prevent SHBG dropoff. Large doses of T will lower SHBG. So will large AI doses. This is why anabolic steroids users have permanent low SHBG.

We need some Estrogen action, this will raise SHBG. This has been proven to work in women taking birth control. There SHBG is 7 - 10 times higher than normal. FYI, it stays that way permantly. I am a staunch anti-birth control pill advocate. This is one of the reasons why, amoungst others. The crazy liberal feminazis will never tell you this though :)
Nice morsel, thank you.

Do you know where to get information on TRT for women.
One of these days I will convince my wife to get the blood test per my list (minus PSA), I could use some details on TRT.
Would like to be prepared for that event.
At the moment all I know is what LEF put up on their website.
Thanks for that, but could use some Cliff notes.
 

plymouth city

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Nice morsel, thank you.

Do you know where to get information on TRT for women.
One of these days I will convince my wife to get the blood test per my list (minus PSA), I could use some details on TRT.
Would like to be prepared for that event.
At the moment all I know is what LEF put up on their website.
Thanks for that, but could use some Cliff notes.
JansZ,

I am currently on top of that right now.

From what I am learning is that women aren't all that different than men when administering HRT, albiet a few minor changes and obviously doses as well.

LEF just sent out their new book on natural therapies, like 2000 pages long. Some good info.

There are Dr's out there that specialize in this.

From what I have seen therapies are similar.

They are given Pregnenolone + DHEA and transdermal T, albiet smaller dose.

Estrogens monitored. Progesterone as well.

Women respond very well to GH treatment too.
 
JanSz

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JansZ,

I am currently on top of that right now.

From what I am learning is that women aren't all that different than men when administering HRT, albiet a few minor changes and obviously doses as well.

LEF just sent out their new book on natural therapies, like 2000 pages long. Some good info.

There are Dr's out there that specialize in this.


From what I have seen therapies are similar.

They are given Pregnenolone + DHEA and transdermal T, albiet smaller dose.

Estrogens monitored. Progesterone as well.

Women respond very well to GH treatment too.
Link to book and doctors names with phones please.
 

kieroneil

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1st Dose Effects

I took the first dose of test and anastrozal on Saturday and so far I'm not really feeling a whole lot different.

Maybe I have a little more energy but no feeling of coming out of the fog into the sunlight or anything.

Does it take a few weeks for it to build up in my system before getting the optimal effects?

I've ramped up cardio by coming home and watching the Tour while riding my trainer so maybe I'll start noticing physiological effects before mental effects.

Any insight?
 

kieroneil

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I noticed a couple other things that may be associated with the testosterone. Of course they might also be associated with the increase in exercise as well ;-)

I am staying up later. For the past six months I was going to bed at 10pm just because I was exhausted but now I have to force myself to bed at 11pm.

I also have very deep, almost comatose-like sleep, in the morning I have very vivid dreams but my body still feels like it's in that coma-like state. Unfortunately it's hard for me to get out of bed because frankly I'm having a good time in my dreams but the sleep is much better.
 
JanSz

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I took the first dose of test and anastrozal on Saturday and so far I'm not really feeling a whole lot different.

Maybe I have a little more energy but no feeling of coming out of the fog into the sunlight or anything.

Does it take a few weeks for it to build up in my system before getting the optimal effects?

I've ramped up cardio by coming home and watching the Tour while riding my trainer so maybe I'll start noticing physiological effects before mental effects.

Any insight?
Describe how you are taking your test.
On top of the thread you were planning to do cycling.
We had discussion, now describe what it is that you decided to follow.
Timing, dose, anything else

When starting shots it is good practice to accelerate startup so you can get at you steady state level quicker.

T
AI
HCG
anything else.

My sugestions:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/890582-post18.html

Be extra careful due to your lower margin of error capability due to your low SHBG.
Do not overdo AI, it will push down your SHBG, there is good possibility that you may not need it at all if you get your T just right. Estradiol 17.04 7.6-42.6 PG/ML
Actually, with this E2 level do not use AI until proven that you need it.

You may benefit form (use it first, before Arimidex (anastrozole).
Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw, 60 Vegetarian Capsules
Tmg (Trimethylglycine), 500 Mg 180 Tablets
and some calcium glutharate
Here it would help having complete estrogen panel from Quest.
 

kieroneil

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Describe how you are taking your test.
On top of the thread you were planning to do cycling.
We had discussion, now describe what it is that you decided to follow.
Timing, dose, anything else

When starting shots it is good practice to accelerate startup so you can get at you steady state level quicker.

T
AI
HCG
anything else.

My sugestions:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/890582-post18.html

Be extra careful due to your lower margin of error capability due to your low SHBG.
Do not overdo AI, it will push down your SHBG, there is good possibility that you may not need it at all if you get your T just right. Estradiol 17.04 7.6-42.6 PG/ML
Actually, with this E2 level do not use AI until proven that you need it.

You may benefit form (use it first, before Arimidex (anastrozole).
Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw, 60 Vegetarian Capsules
Tmg (Trimethylglycine), 500 Mg 180 Tablets
and some calcium glutharate
Here it would help having complete estrogen panel from Quest.
I haven't really decided to do anything yet. I'm still gathering information from you guys and in the mean time I took a 1mg shot of test on Saturday with 1 tab of anastrozole.

I don't think I ever got an answer on whether anastrozole was an AI or not. If not then I'm not taking any AI.

When you say to accellerate the startup do you mean to take 2mg the first week and then 1mg every week thereafter or something like take 1mg Saturday, another on Wednesday, and another on Saturday and then once a week from there? (Both are 3mg taken in a span where 2mg would normally be taken but slightly different.)
Heck, I'll take another one tonight if that's the way to go.

I'm not planning on taking any more blood tests until the end of this cycle to see what needs adjusting then but are you say to take the lef product instead of the anastrozole?

Thanks
 
JanSz

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I haven't really decided to do anything yet. I'm still gathering information from you guys and in the mean time I took a 1mg shot of test on Saturday with 1 tab of anastrozole.

I don't think I ever got an answer on whether anastrozole was an AI or not. If not then I'm not taking any AI.

When you say to accellerate the startup do you mean to take 2mg the first week and then 1mg every week thereafter or something like take 1mg Saturday, another on Wednesday, and another on Saturday and then once a week from there? (Both are 3mg taken in a span where 2mg would normally be taken but slightly different.)
Heck, I'll take another one tonight if that's the way to go.

I'm not planning on taking any more blood tests until the end of this cycle to see what needs adjusting then but are you say to take the lef product instead of the anastrozole?

Thanks
Anastrozole is Arimidex. It is AI, aromatase inhibitor.
It is something that will hurt you because you already have low estrogen. Estradiol 17.04 7.6-42.6 PG/ML

Make sure that you understand what is written.
Your E2 is low and you are taking Arimidex, planing to take some more, stop, make sure you understand what you are doing.
-----------------
If you really took 1mg shot of testosterone, that is nothing.
Must be an error.
Reread your post, make corrections if need be.
In post #18 I have described your T dose and other details.
------------------

Low testosterone may cause brain fog,
you may want ask your wife or friend to check on you.
---------------------
If you did not decided on anything then do not take any action.
You have to decide on a program, have all necessary medicine then start implementing it.
All must be very organized, otherwise you will waste time, good will and energy.
----------------------
You are not on any cycle, plan on continous use of whatewer you will be using.
 

kieroneil

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Anastrozole is Arimidex. It is AI, aromatase inhibitor.
It is something that will hurt you because you already have low estrogen. Estradiol 17.04 7.6-42.6 PG/ML

Make sure that you understand what is written.
Your E2 is low and you are taking Arimidex, planing to take some more, stop, make sure you understand what you are doing.
-----------------
If you really took 1mg shot of testosterone, that is nothing.
Must be an error.
Reread your post, make corrections if need be.
In post #18 I have described your T dose and other details.
------------------

Low testosterone may cause brain fog,
you may want ask your wife or friend to check on you.
---------------------
If you did not decided on anything then do not take any action.
You have to decide on a program, have all necessary medicine then start implementing it.
All must be very organized, otherwise you will waste time, good will and energy.
----------------------
You are not on any cycle, plan on continous use of whatewer you will be using.
I took 1ml of Test Cyp. The injection protocol documentation I have says that 1ml = 1cc so I take 1cc into the 3cc/ml syringe. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

I will stop taking the anastrozole. The doc said that if I just took test my Estrogen would go up and this stuff blocks it. Apparently with my low level it's not needed but it might be in a few weeks, right?
 

hardasnails1973

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I took 1ml of Test Cyp. The injection protocol documentation I have says that 1ml = 1cc so I take 1cc into the 3cc/ml syringe. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

I will stop taking the anastrozole. The doc said that if I just took test my Estrogen would go up and this stuff blocks it. Apparently with my low level it's not needed but it might be in a few weeks, right?
Cut it back slowly other wise bad ass rebound possible !!
 

kieroneil

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Cut it back slowly other wise bad ass rebound possible !!
There really isn't anything to cut back. I took one tablet with my first shot of testosterone which was this past Saturday.

That's all I've done until tonight when I took another ml of testosterone and no tab of anastrozole.

I'm just a little worried that my estrogen is going to rise over the next several weeks and begin negating the effects of the testosterone.
 
JanSz

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kieroneil
I haven't really decided to do anything yet. I'm still gathering information from you guys and in the mean time I took a 1mg shot of test on Saturday with 1 tab of anastrozole.
-------------------------

I took 1ml of Test Cyp. The injection protocol documentation I have says that 1ml = 1cc so I take 1cc into the 3cc/ml syringe. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

I will stop taking the anastrozole. The doc said that if I just took test my Estrogen would go up and this stuff blocks it. Apparently with my low level it's not needed but it might be in a few weeks, right?
Be careful what in what you are doing and specific in what you are writting.

For water 1gram=1mL (oil close enough)

Your Test Cypionate is (more likely) 200mg/mL

If you took 1mg from vial that is insignificant amount.
If you took 1cc=1mL that is large dose, may be ok for very first shot, may be too large.
To evaluate the dose one need to know your plan of action.
Off hand, with your low SHBG, it is large dose.
----------------------------------------------
Unless you do not mind poking you self often with large needles there are other ways.

I am at the other end, I use 31ga, 3/10cc, 5/16" long needle.
 

kieroneil

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kieroneil
I haven't really decided to do anything yet. I'm still gathering information from you guys and in the mean time I took a 1mg shot of test on Saturday with 1 tab of anastrozole.
-------------------------



Be careful what in what you are doing and specific in what you are writting.

For water 1gram=1mL (oil close enough)

Your Test Cypionate is (more likely) 200mg/mL

If you took 1mg from vial that is insignificant amount.
If you took 1cc=1mL that is large dose, may be ok for very first shot, may be too large.
To evaluate the dose one need to know your plan of action.
Off hand, with your low SHBG, it is large dose.
----------------------------------------------
I went ahead and took the second shot last night (Wednesday) with no AI and have a noticable, positive feeling from it.

My intention is to take another shot Sunday sometime and then back on my once a week schedule for the rest of the term.

I'm still not sure what to do about the Anastrozole. My doc says to take one tab a week, with the shot, to block estrogen but now I'm more inclined to wait until I feel breast tenderness, but then again isn't it too late at that point. I think that's what he prescribed HCG for ... to block the estrogen receptors so that no matter how much estogen I have it won't have a place to land.
 
JanSz

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I went ahead and took the second shot last night (Wednesday) with no AI and have a noticable, positive feeling from it.

My intention is to take another shot Sunday sometime and then back on my once a week schedule for the rest of the term.

I'm still not sure what to do about the Anastrozole. My doc says to take one tab a week, with the shot, to block estrogen but now I'm more inclined to wait until I feel breast tenderness, but then again isn't it too late at that point. I think that's what he prescribed HCG for ... to block the estrogen receptors so that no matter how much estogen I have it won't have a place to land.
Well, it looks like you are going with your doctor's recomendations. I wish you luck.

In my post
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/890582-post18.html
I told you my thoughts.

Assuming that your testis are not producing T, your current dose is over twice as high as it should be. If they are producing anything, it is even worse.
It will further suppress your already low SHBG.
Not sure what megadoses of HCG will do to your testis.
Additionally you have got on weekly roller coaster, there are people that are able to tolerate it.
.
Then you are going to cycle (The Protocol is this:
Cycle 10 weeks on, 4 weeks off).
.
Anti-aging is a cutting edge, nobody have a sure-fire way.
We all have to be open minded.
Please post on your progress.
 

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