Why is high testosterone unhealthy?

  1. New Member
    Lawhammer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    88
    Rep Power
    142
    Level
    8
    Lv. Percent
    61.88%

    Why is high testosterone unhealthy?


    Other than cholesterol and possible prostate issues (both of which can be controlled by medication), why is it viewed as unhealthy to increase testosterone beyond normal limits? Does anyone have any authoritative studies documenting that it is bad for you?

  2. New Member
    BigJimCalhoun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Age
    45
    Posts
    184
    Rep Power
    189
    Level
    11
    Lv. Percent
    55.09%

    I think increased blood pressure, insulin resistance, gynocomastia, lactation, thickening of the left aorta, etc come to mind. I do not have studies in front of my to back this up. I am cool at the level I am at.
  3. New Member
    Lawhammer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    88
    Rep Power
    142
    Level
    8
    Lv. Percent
    61.88%

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJimCalhoun View Post
    I think increased blood pressure, insulin resistance, gynocomastia, lactation, thickening of the left aorta, etc come to mind. I do not have studies in front of my to back this up. I am cool at the level I am at.
    the reason why I ask is b/c of this:

    YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
    •   
       

  4. New Member
    smc252's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    299
    Rep Power
    241
    Level
    14
    Lv. Percent
    45.52%

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawhammer View Post
    the reason why I ask is b/c of this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0LEj8IPHGU
    They didn't reveal their dosing...Looks like lower, seeing the old guy goes to a valid clinic.
  5. New Member
    SoMdHunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    454
    Rep Power
    324
    Level
    16
    Lv. Percent
    76.19%

    I doubt they keep their levels as high as someone running a cycle.
  6. New Member
    BigJimCalhoun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Age
    45
    Posts
    184
    Rep Power
    189
    Level
    11
    Lv. Percent
    55.09%

    BTW, I meant no disrespect in my first response.

    I think the old guy is on 200/week. I think people may think that they are ok, but are they really doing what is best for the long term? What type of tests are they getting done, how often and who is interpreting the results? I am sure they are not studying changes to the left aorta of the heart. I think many online clinics only care about the money.

    I was on 115 mg/week and my new doctor wants my dosage to come down. A doctor that says that is concerned about my long term health.

    I know you posted test, but let me tell you about some more healthy people. In another forum I participate in, maybe 1/4 of the members use trenbolone acetate regularly. For those who do not know, tren is made my taking cattle steroids pellets that are 5 times more anabolic & androgenic than testosterone, separating out the "good stuff "by soaking in some sort of gasoline additive, etc, etc then mixing with oil. The users have coughing fits (tren cought), urinate blood and they will tell you in all seriousness that they are healthy. Their lipid values are terrible but they do not believe that bad lipids cause problems.

    I really like my testosterone and there are enough cattle where I live, but just the same, I am happy with being at the upper 1/3 to top of normal.
  7. Banned
    jomi822's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Age
    33
    Posts
    2,419
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    35
    Lv. Percent
    52.43%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    pissing blood from trenbolone? that is REALLY bad. there is a bit of an issue going aruond as to whether the darkening of the urine caused by taking trenbolone is from kidney stress or simply the color of the exreted oxidized trenbolone molecule itself.

    and it is my understanding (only explanation i have seen and confirmed) that "tren cough" is caused by an allergic reaction to the acetate ester...not the trenbolone molecule itself.

    the gasoline addivated youre talking about is heet, its a methanol product used to dissolve the cattle pellets. its actually quite sanitary if done correctly.

    If you read through our supplement section, it appears that "bad" lipid values are actually quite conducive to muscle building in an of itself. i suppose its a bit of a trade off.

    that being said, i personally do not know of anyone (and i know quite a few people that could be examples) that has had any kind of health issue directly related to high dose testosterone use.

    for HRT purposes...why go over the required dosage?
  8. Professional Member
    jminis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    4,023
    Rep Power
    2188
    Level
    43
    Lv. Percent
    46.62%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    First it's early and I just woke up but I'll try and shed some lightLawhammer keep in mind that the body is the most sophisticated machine ever created. Everything does something for a reason. My guess is they ran blood on hundreds of men and saw the trend that Test in the system is between this range to this range. Your body regulates test for a lot of good reasons some stated above. Remember your body is always trying to reach a state of homeostasis so if your on HRT with levels that your body was not meant to have there will be a reaction. When supplementing anything that your body makes we want to work with it not against it or else it defeats the whole purpose.
  9. New Member
    KSman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    386
    Rep Power
    288
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    86.48%

    Part of the issue is today's political and legal climate. Even if there was some valid reason to think that above range T levels were good for you, Doctors would not want to do this:

    1 -State medical boards can take away their license.
    2 -Insurance companies will refuse to deal with those doctors
    3 -Political driven witch hunts.
    4 -Some guy on higher T with an underlying health problem gets cancer, heart attack or stroke and they sue the Doctor.
    5 -endless list
  10. Professional Member
    JanSz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,631
    Rep Power
    2415
    Level
    45
    Lv. Percent
    61.27%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Political issues aside.

    In the ideal word we want to have ideal T levels that nature provides to healthy men.
    What is it?
    Current answer, it is a level that avarage healthy young man have?
    What level average healthy young men have?


    Do not know, this is best I can come up with:
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Quest Diagnostics
    Testosterone Free (46.0-224.0)pg/mL
    Testosterone Bioavailable (110.0-575.0)ng/dL
    --------------------------------------------------------

    I think these levels should not create any legal trouble for my doctor.
  11. New Member
    engival's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    389
    Rep Power
    286
    Level
    16
    Lv. Percent
    50.06%

    High testosterone can cause premature ejaculation
  12. New Member
    KSman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    386
    Rep Power
    288
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    86.48%

    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Political issues aside.

    In the ideal word we want to have ideal T levels that nature provides to healthy men.
    What is it?
    Current answer, it is a level that avarage healthy young man have?
    What level average healthy young men have?


    Do not know, this is best I can come up with:
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Quest Diagnostics
    Testosterone Free (46.0-224.0)pg/mL
    Testosterone Bioavailable (110.0-575.0)ng/dL
    --------------------------------------------------------

    I think these levels should not create any legal trouble for my doctor.
    I am concerned that there are no health young men who get hormone tests [why would they?], therefore a weak statistical base.
  13. Diamond Member
    T-Bone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    16,121
    Rep Power
    5054030
    Level
    95
    Lv. Percent
    79.26%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityActivity VeteranActivity RoyaltyPosting ProPosting AuthorityPosting Veteran

    Quote From a Book


    "Exogenous Hormones. Exogenous hormones come into the body from outside and can cause a world of problems.(Anabolic steroids, insulin, and the growth hormone injections described above, are examples of exogenous hormones.). The problems with exogenous hormones stem from the fact that your body cannot control them - it cannot make the hormone jump back into the needle or pill bottle. All your body can do to counteract the incoming hormone is decrease of shut-off internal (endogenous) production of that particular hormone. (These natual counterregulatory mechanisms are called feedback loops). If there is still too much hormone floating around after exogenous hormone is administered, it cannot precisely mimic the subtle ebb and flow of naturally produced hormones. The human body is exquisitely sensitive to hormonal fluctuations. As long as your body is in control, as with finely tuned control mechanisms; and you can upset your entire endocrine system, with potentially grave consequences.

    If you take the hormone for a long enough period of time, then once you stop taking it, your body does not resume making the hormone. (Remember "use it or lose it?" - well, at this point you lost it.) When that happens, you are hooked for life on taking the hormone(a very profitable situation for the dealer of the steroids, growth hormone, etc.). Even if you do not completely lose the capacity to produce hormone, it takes a while to come back. And until it does, you suffer a shortage of that hormone, during which time all of the positive effects are reversed - just ask any ex-steroid user. As you can see, exogenous hormones are risky and have an effect opposite to Natural Hormonal Enhancement, by impairing, rather than enhancing, natural production of hormones.

    Endogenous Hormones. These are the natural hormones produced by the body. Unless you have an endocrine infirmity(like diabetes, hypogonadism, Cushing's disease or Addison's disease), your hormones can never rise too high or fall too low because your body regulates hormones in the same way a thermostat regulates temperature - it allows fluctuations within a set range. You can naturally enhance endogenous hormones from "low-normal" to "high-normal," but never above normal. You influence endogenous hormones every day of your life."

    Ok thats from a great book I own called "Natural Hormonal Enhancement" by Rob Faigin. It is an excellent book I have read it cover to cover many times. I have never actually followed his plan but follow a similar one. Its a great book anyway. That was a pain in the ass, I have to go find the book and find that specific page and type it all in!. I hope you guys enjoyed it!. Anyway I hope this is ok, it is just a quote and I did give credit to the author!.
  14. Professional Member
    JanSz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,631
    Rep Power
    2415
    Level
    45
    Lv. Percent
    61.27%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    I am concerned that there are no health young men who get hormone tests [why would they?], therefore a weak statistical base.
    Exactly my concern.
    Do you have any idea how Quest is commong up with the ranges?

    My guess, they keep running statistics of their results,
    take some kind of average, slap +- error based on (STdev), and there you have it.

    Their upper range still may be lower than young and healthy men have.
    ============================== ============================== =============
    We probably should worry about this whole set T+E

    Estradiol, Free (0.3-0.9) pg/mL
    Estradiol, Bioavailable (10-50) pg/mL

    Testosterone Free (46.0-224.0) pg/mL
    Testosterone Bioavailable (110.0-575.0) ng/dL
  15. New Member
    BigJimCalhoun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Age
    45
    Posts
    184
    Rep Power
    189
    Level
    11
    Lv. Percent
    55.09%

    I wonder the same thing, and .. are there politics involved with the range.

    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Exactly my concern.
    Do you have any idea how Quest is commong up with the ranges?

    My guess, they keep running statistics of their results,
    take some kind of average, slap +- error based on (STdev), and there you have it.

    Their upper range still may be lower than young and healthy men have.
    ============================== ============================== =============
    We probably should worry about this whole set T+E

    Estradiol, Free (0.3-0.9) pg/mL
    Estradiol, Bioavailable (10-50) pg/mL

    Testosterone Free (46.0-224.0) pg/mL
    Testosterone Bioavailable (110.0-575.0) ng/dL
  16. New Member
    MongolHahn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    15
    Rep Power
    97
    Level
    3
    Lv. Percent
    28%

    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    I am concerned that there are no health young men who get hormone tests [why would they?], therefore a weak statistical base.


    Many clinical trials - as part of the study - use a control group of healthy young males (sometimes several hundred, depending on the study) and obtain their hormone levels aas sampling for the testing process. Also the government itself funds studies to examine hormone levels in different age groups.

    Statistical levels of hormones aren't derived only from people who come in for medical work-ups or specific problems - so it's not a "weak statistical base".
  17. New Member
    MongolHahn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    15
    Rep Power
    97
    Level
    3
    Lv. Percent
    28%

    Actually, I think that this would be a VG question for Dr C to weigh in on! I have heard from patients of his that he is "death on wheels" when it comes t having supra physciological levels of Test in the blood test results, so maybe he can inform us of the technical details of the problems with such levels?
  18. New Member
    smc252's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    299
    Rep Power
    241
    Level
    14
    Lv. Percent
    45.52%

    Quote Originally Posted by MongolHahn View Post
    Statistical levels of hormones aren't derived only from people who come in for medical work-ups or specific problems - so it's not a "weak statistical base".
    So explain why my family medical clinic uses a 122-534ng/dl total testosterone range...
  19. Professional Member
    JanSz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,631
    Rep Power
    2415
    Level
    45
    Lv. Percent
    61.27%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by smc252 View Post
    So explain why my family medical clinic uses a 122-534ng/dl total testosterone range...
    Try as best as you can to get your tests done at Quest Diagnostics, blood drawn at quest.
  20. New Member
    Undone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    20
    Rep Power
    100
    Level
    4
    Lv. Percent
    8.52%

    Quote Originally Posted by MongolHahn View Post
    Actually, I think that this would be a VG question for Dr C to weigh in on! I have heard from patients of his that he is "death on wheels" when it comes t having supra physciological levels of Test in the blood test results, so maybe he can inform us of the technical details of the problems with such levels?
    Maybe this would be too ambiguous to answer, but given a "normal" TT range of 300-1100, what numbers would an average steroid user come in with? 1200, 2200, 3300?

    Just how far outside the range would one need to be to even put you in the catagory? Probably hard to answer, but I would be real curious in the opinions of the people on this board.
  21. Banned
    jomi822's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Age
    33
    Posts
    2,419
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    35
    Lv. Percent
    52.43%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Undone View Post
    Maybe this would be too ambiguous to answer, but given a "normal" TT range of 300-1100, what numbers would an average steroid user come in with? 1200, 2200, 3300?

    Just how far outside the range would one need to be to even put you in the catagory? Probably hard to answer, but I would be real curious in the opinions of the people on this board.
    one user on this board was cruisiing on 350mgs of testosterone propionate a week and his total T came in at 3500ng/dl i believe.
  22. New Member
    SoMdHunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    454
    Rep Power
    324
    Level
    16
    Lv. Percent
    76.19%

    Quote Originally Posted by Undone View Post
    Maybe this would be too ambiguous to answer, but given a "normal" TT range of 300-1100, what numbers would an average steroid user come in with? 1200, 2200, 3300?

    Just how far outside the range would one need to be to even put you in the catagory? Probably hard to answer, but I would be real curious in the opinions of the people on this board.
    200mg of Test C per week took me to almost 1400ng/dl! And I've known guys on cycles to run well over 1,000mg per week. I've since lowerd my T injections back down to 140 per week.
  23. New Member
    Skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    44
    Rep Power
    118
    Level
    6
    Lv. Percent
    21.35%

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawhammer View Post
    the reason why I ask is b/c of this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0LEj8IPHGU
    I wonder if those guys in the video had any libido problems. And if not, then why the hell do most of the guys on TRT who frequent these forums, including me, complain about libido problems.
  24. AAA
    New Member
    AAA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    21
    Rep Power
    106
    Level
    4
    Lv. Percent
    51.15%

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawhammer View Post
    Other than cholesterol and possible prostate issues (both of which can be controlled by medication), why is it viewed as unhealthy to increase testosterone beyond normal limits? Does anyone have any authoritative studies documenting that it is bad for you?

    High test will not cause prostate problems. If it would every 21 yo would have prostate issues. When was the last time you heard of a 21 yo having this type of a problem? On the other hand e will cause problems. Low t + high e= prostate problems.
  25. Registered User
    ItsHectic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,603
    Rep Power
    4374
    Level
    30
    Lv. Percent
    45.44%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
    I wonder if those guys in the video had any libido problems. And if not, then why the hell do most of the guys on TRT who frequent these forums, including me, complain about libido problems.
    I think, and I will probly be corrected on this, is when your using really high amounts of testosterone, it simply overpowers the aromatase enzyme, theres not enough aromatase to convert a % of FT high enough to cause estrogen dominance, so they might have high E2 but there FT is off the charts. I am talking about 500mg+ T per week, when they go off it they might have lowered libido for a couple weeks but then there levels go backto normal before they can realise they had a problem.
  26. New Member
    KSman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    386
    Rep Power
    288
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    86.48%

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post
    I think, and I will probly be corrected on this, is when your using really high amounts of testosterone, it simply overpowers the aromatase enzyme, theres not enough aromatase to convert a % of FT high enough to cause estrogen dominance, so they might have high E2 but there FT is off the charts. I am talking about 500mg+ T per week, when they go off it they might have lowered libido for a couple weeks but then there levels go backto normal before they can realise they had a problem.
    They take AIs to combat bloat, gyno and libido issues. Last thing that they want is "***** tits".
  27. Senior Member
    Hyde12's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    1057
    Level
    32
    Lv. Percent
    52.53%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by engival View Post
    High testosterone can cause premature ejaculation
    So can low test believe it or not.
  28. New Member
    smc252's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    299
    Rep Power
    241
    Level
    14
    Lv. Percent
    45.52%

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12 View Post
    So can low test believe it or not.
    Or a lack there-of
  29. Professional Member
    JanSz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,631
    Rep Power
    2415
    Level
    45
    Lv. Percent
    61.27%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by SoMdHunter View Post
    200mg of Test C per week took me to almost 1400ng/dl! And I've known guys on cycles to run well over 1,000mg per week. I've since lowerd my T injections back down to 140 per week.
    Keep posted your TT, Bio-T and FreeT on that dose.

    I started yesterday 130.7mg/week, subQ,
    I will do it E3D so my individual dose is 28units on syringe
    I use 29ga 1/2cc needle
    but will switch to
    3532041 Monoject Ultrafine U-100 Insulin Syringe 29 Gauge 3/10cc 1/2inch Needle 100/box $15.99
    http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant....Category_Code=
    -------------
    I use HCG 500iu at the time of T injection
    so I have day for shots and two days free of shots in between. My testicles are not producing T.
  30. New Member
    KSman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    386
    Rep Power
    288
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    86.48%

    [QUOTE=JanSz;867676]
    I use 29ga 1/2cc needle
    but will switch to
    3532041 Monoject Ultrafine U-100 Insulin Syringe 29 Gauge 3/10cc 1/2inch Needle 100/box $15.99
    [

    Sam's and Walmart sell their Rely-on line. That now seems to be a rebranded Monojet. The boxes are not sealed, so they should be able to show you what they look like. the #29 .5" .5ml is $12.60 per 100.
  31. New Member
    KSman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    386
    Rep Power
    288
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    86.48%

    I guess that this thread does not resolve the OP's question. We cannot directly use what we find from the body building population, as they use many different types of gear. We do not have the collective experience of any long term use of strickly using test esters that are used in TRT at high levels. So someone states that there is a concern for changes to heart tissue... was that from using clen or other stimulants, or from dostinex or other ergot derived drugs?

    Would a TT of 1500 improve health? There is no data. But Doctor's are restricted to working within natural ranges for many reasons. I don't think that the OP's question can be answered.
  32. Banned
    jomi822's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Age
    33
    Posts
    2,419
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    35
    Lv. Percent
    52.43%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    many steroid users "cruise" on testosterone year round, using doses either just below what is considered recreational, or well into the recreational range. i have yet to hear of any long term problems among these types of users besides, of course, shut down of endogenous tropic hormones.
  33. Professional Member
    JanSz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,631
    Rep Power
    2415
    Level
    45
    Lv. Percent
    61.27%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by jomi822 View Post
    many steroid users "cruise" on testosterone year round, using doses either just below what is considered recreational, or well into the recreational range. i have yet to hear of any long term problems among these types of users besides, of course, shut down of endogenous tropic hormones.
    The key words:
    "as they use many different types of gear"

    so there is no way to figure out what to expect from "clean" bioidentical testosterone use at slightly higher dose by watching bb's on steroids.
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Why is my Free Test so high?
    By TylerDurden7 in forum Male Anti-Aging Medicine
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-20-2010, 07:56 AM
  2. Replies: 102
    Last Post: 05-15-2003, 10:10 PM
  3. Why is YJ no longer a Mod?
    By labrad in forum General Chat
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 03-29-2003, 03:59 PM
  4. why is it so hard to talk to chics
    By hamper19 in forum General Chat
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-13-2003, 11:14 PM
  5. Why is FDA pissed at Avant Labs exactly?
    By huge-one-day in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 12-24-2002, 02:19 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in