250 HCG twice a week

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    250 HCG twice a week


    Would doing this long term with HRT people cause any damage or loss of sensitivty to the testicles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockstar6181 View Post
    Would doing this long term with HRT people cause any damage or loss of sensitivty to the testicles?
    Nope not proven so far hasn't
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockstar6181 View Post
    Would doing this long term with HRT people cause any damage or loss of sensitivty to the testicles?
    Change to every other day.
    •   
       

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    really, there is no desensitizing of the testes when HCG is used EOD for long durations? Ive always heard excessive use will cause natural testicular function to decline and even cease.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    really, there is no desensitizing of the testes when HCG is used EOD for long durations? Ive always heard excessive use will cause natural testicular function to decline and even cease.
    Excessive is [idiot aka uninformed] body builders using thousands of IUs per week.

    We have research, published two years ago, that showed that 250iu SQ EOD restored baseline testicular activity in young normal men who where HPTA repressed with 200mg/wk of test esters. So that is a normal physiological stimulus to the testes which mimics what they should be doing.

    What that research did show was that the 250iu SQ twice a week doses were really close to ideal. With the new research, 250iu SQ EOD is not in any way 'more than needed'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    really, there is no desensitizing of the testes when HCG is used EOD for long durations? Ive always heard excessive use will cause natural testicular function to decline and even cease.
    My understanding of excessive HCG is defined by Dr John.
    http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/TRT.doc
    TRT: A Recipe for Success
    His words: "Personally, I recommend never giving more than 500IU of HCG at a time."

    I understand that anything over 500IU every day is excessive.

    There is a study with link in some of the posts that say that 100IU every day induces testicle to the max, any dose above it is wasted.
    Often used dose 250IU/every other day is a compromise because
    people do not want to poke to often
    supposedly there is some additional benefit in introducing higher dose less often
    ------------------------------------
    I use 250IU/eod (I use Tcream)
    I can feel diference in testicles fullness on the off days.
    I cannot feel any thing else doing HCG shots.
    ------------------------------------
    People using T shots e3d use HCG 250IU on days that are between T shots.
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    My understanding of excessive HCG is defined by Dr John.
    http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/TRT.doc
    TRT: A Recipe for Success
    His words: "Personally, I recommend never giving more than 500IU of HCG at a time."

    I understand that anything over 500IU every day is excessive.

    There is a study with link in some of the posts that say that 100IU every day induces testicle to the max, any dose above it is wasted.
    Often used dose 250IU/every other day is a compromise because
    people do not want to poke to often
    supposedly there is some additional benefit in introducing higher dose less often
    ------------------------------------
    I use 250IU/eod (I use Tcream)
    I can feel diference in testicles fullness on the off days.
    I cannot feel any thing else doing HCG shots.
    ------------------------------------
    People using T shots e3d use HCG 250IU on days that are between T shots.
    .
    Define Days inbetween shots ?
    would that be day1 and day2 or just day before the shot like on an every 3 day rotation same as shots. with going 250 ius days in between cause you to actually decreae your T dosages by a good amount ? Would an EOD schedule with a person on shot be suitable thing to do. I thougth the concept was to keep a constant serum level and not have peaks and valleys and would hcg given on your day of your shot some how alter this?

    Right now i am doing 250 ius HCG day before the shot every 3rd day but balls are still not regaining size so to speak and feel shut down.
    So that comes out to be 500 ius a week adding in another day you almost bring it to 1000 a week. Can some one calculate how many ius 250 on days between every 3 rd shout would come out to be weekly? If this will help to reduce my amount taken I would not mind injecting my self and make my balls grow I would love that HEHE
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    Define Days inbetween shots ?
    would that be day1 and day2 or just day before the shot like on an every 3 day rotation same as shots. with going 250 ius days in between cause you to actually decreae your T dosages by a good amount ? Would an EOD schedule with a person on shot be suitable thing to do. I thougth the concept was to keep a constant serum level and not have peaks and valleys and would hcg given on your day of your shot some how alter this?

    Right now i am doing 250 ius HCG day before the shot every 3rd day but balls are still not regaining size so to speak and feel shut down.
    So that comes out to be 500 ius a week adding in another day you almost bring it to 1000 a week. Can some one calculate how many ius 250 on days between every 3 rd shout would come out to be weekly? If this will help to reduce my amount taken I would not mind injecting my self and make my balls grow I would love that HEHE
    If one doest shut T every third day and HCG on days in between, he does one shot every day, it is either T or HCG.
    Weekly dose =250*7*(2/3)=1167IU

    I asked you on another post how do you fill up yout 29ga syrige using another large syringe.
    What do you do with the large one? How big it is. What do you do with remaining T? Are you storing the whole vial of testosterone in large syringe. I need details.
    Is the mess really worth the 29ga convenience.
    How hard is it to shut 27ga into belly fat?

    1 T
    2 -- HCG
    3 -- HCG
    4 T
    5 -- HCG
    6 -- HCG
    7 T
    8 -- HCG
    9 -- HCG
    10 T
    11 -- HCG
    12 -- HCG
    13 T
    14 -- HCG
    15 -- HCG
    16 T
    17 -- HCG
    18 -- HCG
    19 T
    20 -- HCG
    21 -- HCG
    22 T
    23 -- HCG
    24 -- HCG
    25 T
    26 -- HCG
    27 -- HCG
    28 T
    29 -- HCG
    30 -- HCG
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    If one doest shut T every third day and HCG on days in between, he does one shot every day, it is either T or HCG.
    Weekly dose =250*7*(2/3)=1167IU

    I asked you on another post how do you fill up yout 29ga syrige using another large syringe.
    What do you do with the large one? How big it is. What do you do with remaining T? Are you storing the whole vial of testosterone in large syringe. I need details.
    Is the mess really worth the 29ga convenience.
    How hard is it to shut 27ga into belly fat?

    1 T
    2 -- HCG
    3 -- HCG
    4 T
    5 -- HCG
    6 -- HCG
    7 T
    8 -- HCG
    9 -- HCG
    10 T
    11 -- HCG
    12 -- HCG
    13 T
    14 -- HCG
    15 -- HCG
    16 T
    17 -- HCG
    18 -- HCG
    19 T
    20 -- HCG
    21 -- HCG
    22 T
    23 -- HCG
    24 -- HCG
    25 T
    26 -- HCG
    27 -- HCG
    28 T
    29 -- HCG
    30 -- HCG
    Draw with a fresh 22 gauge and syringe out what you need
    pull plunger on the 29 gauge to 25 ius
    then put rest back in bottle
    put plunger back on the 29 gauge
    Flip it around let it run back around and push plunger all the way. i use my quad or shoudler or calve, biceps, trceps, rotate sites..

    With 1000 ius a desensitize ones nuts ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    Draw with a fresh 22 gauge and syringe out what you need
    pull plunger on the 29 gauge to 25 ius
    then put rest back in bottle
    put plunger back on the 29 gauge
    Flip it around let it run back around and push plunger all the way. i use my quad or shoudler or calve, biceps, trceps, rotate sites..

    With 1000 ius a desensitize ones nuts ?
    Most likely not, Dr John approves much larger weekly dose.
    500x7=3500iu/week.
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    HCG has a reasonably long half life of 36 hours which makes the EOD not as hilly as one would expect. And with the T level floor, drops in T will be minimal. I tried injecting T and HCG every days for a month when I switched from weekly T and HCG twice a week. I did that to know what a steady state of things would feel like. I then switched to EOD and things felt the same to me. With the two injections, eliminating 365 injections per year has some merit.

    HCG has a longer 1/2 life than LH.

    EOD was also used in the research that supports 250iu EOD.

    I inject T IM with a .5ml #29 .5" insulin syringe. I fill that directly from the vial and inject... dead simple. I take a #23 syringe and poke a hole in the center of a new vial's stopper, and re-poke several times while rotating the cutting edge of the needle. I do this for the HCG and test cyp vials. Then I am very careful to stick the #29 syringes into the very center. I do not have a problem with needle dulling.

    Edit: #29 below changed from typo of #26.
    When drawing up T with the #29 .5", the flow is slow and the B alcohol preservative will boil then re-incorporate. As many diabetics have done for years, I fill a syringe and use the syringe for multiple injections. Do not do this if you have a weak immune system or are taking immune suppressing drugs for RA etc. I clean the needle after the injection then recap. I used to clean after and before, but cleaning before the injection can sting. No issues for me with needle dulling between first and last injections.

    I draw up .56 ml of test cyp into the .5ml syringes and inject 4 times. I dilute my 10,000iu vials of HCG to 5ml instead of 10ml and load .5ml of that 2000iu/ml for 4 250iu injections. The syringe gets returned to refrigeration until empty.

    Drawing up the .56ml of test cyp takes a while, but I only have to do that every 8 days (yielding 98mg/wk). Do not use a syringe larger than .5ml, as the larger piston size will reduce the pressures developed when injecting and it will be slower.

    .5" is deep enough for IM for small doses if you have thin skin at the injection site.

    My only challenge now is to avoid blood vessels in my quads. I do not have good visible surface veins, so I sometimes hit one and get the blue-dot bruising when that happens. Getting a tan makes seeing the veins even harder.

    I inject my T and HCG on the same days as a matter of convenience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    HCG has a reasonably long half life of 36 hours which makes the EOD not as hilly as one would expect. And with the T level floor, drops in T will be minimal. I tried injecting T and HCG every days for a month when I switched from weekly T and HCG twice a week. I did that to know what a steady state of things would feel like. I then switched to EOD and things felt the same to me. With the two injections, eliminating 365 injections per year has some merit.

    HCG has a longer 1/2 life than LH.

    EOD was also used in the research that supports 250iu EOD.

    I inject T IM with a .5ml #29 .5" insulin syringe. I fill that directly from the vial and inject... dead simple. I take a #23 syringe and poke a hole in the center of a new vial's stopper, and re-poke several times while rotating the cutting edge of the needle. I do this for the HCG and test cyp vials. Then I am very careful to stick the #29 syringes into the very center. I do not have a problem with needle dulling.

    When drawing up T with the #26 .5", the flow is slow and the B alcohol preservative will boil then re-incorporate. As many diabetics have done for years, I fill a syringe and use the syringe for multiple injections. Do not do this if you have a weak immune system or are taking immune suppressing drugs for RA etc. I clean the needle after the injection then recap. I used to clean after and before, but cleaning before the injection can sting. No issues for me with needle dulling between first and last injections.

    I draw up .56 ml of test cyp into the .5ml syringes and inject 4 times. I dilute my 10,000iu vials of HCG to 5ml instead of 10ml and load .5ml of that 2000iu/ml for 4 250iu injections. The syringe gets returned to refrigeration until empty.

    Drawing up the .56ml of test cyp takes a while, but I only have to do that every 8 days (yielding 98mg/wk). Do not use a syringe larger than .5ml, as the larger piston size will reduce the pressures developed when injecting and it will be slower.

    .5" is deep enough for IM for small doses if you have thin skin at the injection site.

    My only challenge now is to avoid blood vessels in my quads. I do not have good visible surface veins, so I sometimes hit one and get the blue-dot bruising when that happens. Getting a tan makes seeing the veins even harder.

    I inject my T and HCG on the same days as a matter of convenience.
    so the question is this with out pituatary problems the best way to take HCG with injections would be

    1. 250 ius EOD based upon research
    2. 250 ius 2 days prior injection using every 3rd day administration

    So then is EOD ok to do with injections or would you get same benefit as doing it days in between shoots
    How will doing EOD affect test levels if you inject on day of you do your shot aren;t you going to be spiking all over the place with test/ estrogen levels and not being consistant?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    so the question is this with out pituatary problems the best way to take HCG with injections would be

    1. 250 ius EOD based upon research
    2. 250 ius 2 days prior injection using every 3rd day administration

    So then is EOD ok to do with injections or would you get same benefit as doing it days in between shoots
    How will doing EOD affect test levels if you inject on day of you do your shot aren;t you going to be spiking all over the place with test/ estrogen levels and not being consistent?
    As the HCG half life is 36 hours [no spikes] and the action in cells with LH receptors when triggered will be a few days... there are no wild changes. The EOD injections create 4 or 5 overlapping injection sites all yielding T at different rates. There is a very level amount of T before HCG comes into play. So levels are not dropping anywhere. My T increased 16% when HCG was added at 250 EOD. So we should not be concerned with the waviness of the 16% which may be very small.

    I don't see that injecting HCG EOD in-between T injections is worth having to do injections every day. You could try it, but I doubt that you would notice anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    HCG has a reasonably long half life of 36 hours which makes the EOD not as hilly as one would expect. And with the T level floor, drops in T will be minimal. I tried injecting T and HCG every days for a month when I switched from weekly T and HCG twice a week. I did that to know what a steady state of things would feel like. I then switched to EOD and things felt the same to me. With the two injections, eliminating 365 injections per year has some merit.

    HCG has a longer 1/2 life than LH.

    EOD was also used in the research that supports 250iu EOD.

    I inject T IM with a .5ml #29 .5" insulin syringe. I fill that directly from the vial and inject... dead simple. I take a #23 syringe and poke a hole in the center of a new vial's stopper, and re-poke several times while rotating the cutting edge of the needle. I do this for the HCG and test cyp vials. Then I am very careful to stick the #29 syringes into the very center. I do not have a problem with needle dulling.

    When drawing up T with the #26 .5", the flow is slow and the B alcohol preservative will boil then re-incorporate. As many diabetics have done for years, I fill a syringe and use the syringe for multiple injections. Do not do this if you have a weak immune system or are taking immune suppressing drugs for RA etc. I clean the needle after the injection then recap. I used to clean after and before, but cleaning before the injection can sting. No issues for me with needle dulling between first and last injections.

    I draw up .56 ml of test cyp into the .5ml syringes and inject 4 times. I dilute my 10,000iu vials of HCG to 5ml instead of 10ml and load .5ml of that 2000iu/ml for 4 250iu injections. The syringe gets returned to refrigeration until empty.

    Drawing up the .56ml of test cyp takes a while, but I only have to do that every 8 days (yielding 98mg/wk). Do not use a syringe larger than .5ml, as the larger piston size will reduce the pressures developed when injecting and it will be slower.

    .5" is deep enough for IM for small doses if you have thin skin at the injection site.

    My only challenge now is to avoid blood vessels in my quads. I do not have good visible surface veins, so I sometimes hit one and get the blue-dot bruising when that happens. Getting a tan makes seeing the veins even harder.

    I inject my T and HCG on the same days as a matter of convenience.
    You have lost me on the three diferent syringe sizes.
    Inject T with 29ga
    Draw T with 26ga
    poke holes with 23ga
    what you use for HCG
    the 29ga and 26ga must be with detachable needles, right?
    Would you mind helping me.

    What is the reason for poking? Needle dulling, I use 30gs needle for HCG, it goes right thru, it is not dull afterward, I inject with it, feels ok.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    You have lost me on the three diferent syringe sizes.
    Inject T with 29ga
    Draw T with 26ga
    poke holes with 23ga
    what you use for HCG
    the 29ga and 26ga must be with detachable needles, right?
    Would you mind helping me.

    What is the reason for poking? Needle dulling, I use 30gs needle for HCG, it goes right thru, it is not dull afterward, I inject with it, feels ok.

    OK, the #26 typo'd and should have read #29, I will edit the post and then this post will seem odd

    I use a #23 only to condition the rubber stoppers and to transfer water into the HCG. Yes it has a removable needle. I bought 100 when I was doing deep injections in the gluts.

    I use #29, .5ml .5" insulin needles for both T and HCG injections.

    You will see posts about drawing up the T in a larger bore needle to transfer into a slin pin with the plunger removed... no need.

    Some get very concerned with needle dulling and will draw up with a large bore needle, then replace the needle with a new smaller gauge needle for the injection. That is the only reason why I raised that issue. I have not had problems with that either.
    Last edited by KSman; 05-20-2007 at 10:15 PM. Reason: Added response to dulling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    OK, the #26 typo'd and should have read #29, I will edit the post and then this post will seem odd

    I use a #23 only to condition the rubber stoppers and to transfer water into the HCG. Yes it has a removable needle. I bought 100 when I was doing deep injections in the gluts.

    I use #29, .5ml .5" insulin needles for both T and HCG injections.

    You will see posts about drawing up the T in a larger bore needle to transfer into a slin pin with the plunger removed... no need.

    Some get very concerned with needle dulling and will draw up with a large bore needle, then replace the needle with a new smaller gauge needle for the injection. That is the only reason why I raised that issue. I have not had problems with that either.
    Thank you.
    How long it takes you to fill in with T, how long to do injection.

    How important is to use 1/2cc vs 1cc ?

    I take 29ga is a rock bottom,
    30ga is out of a question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Thank you.
    How long it takes you to fill in with T, how long to do injection.

    How important is to use 1/2cc vs 1cc ?

    I take 29ga is a rock bottom,
    30ga is out of a question.
    Well, #29 works for me. Maybe it takes 5 minutes to fill .56ml, and 10-15 seconds to push out each .14ml dose.

    If the 1ml syringe has twice the piston surface area, then for the same force, there will be 1/2 the pressure, which will simply increase injection time. My second box of 100 ReliOn syringes have a design change with a shorter syringe and bigger area bore and I do notice a difference with that even thought they are both .5ml.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    Well, #29 works for me. Maybe it takes 5 minutes to fill .56ml, and 10-15 seconds to push out each .14ml dose.

    If the 1ml syringe has twice the piston surface area, then for the same force, there will be 1/2 the pressure, which will simply increase injection time. My second box of 100 ReliOn syringes have a design change with a shorter syringe and bigger area bore and I do notice a difference with that even thought they are both .5ml.
    Lots of good info, thank you.

    ReliOn® syringes are available only at Wal-Mart and Sam's Club pharmacies.


    I have located BD Microfine IV U-100 Insulin Syringe 28 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2inch Needle 100/ box
    UPC: UPC: 382908465038 $24.99
    BD Microfine IV U-100 Insulin Syringe 28 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2inch Needle 100/ box
    Possibly it can be a happy medium.

    Not sure if they ship to NJ.
    Wonder if Walmart is selling this size syringe, I did not find it on ReliOn | Information Center
    ============================== ===============
    I am asking my doc and he writes a script with out much to do.
    If I decide to switch to T injections I need to know (details) what to ask for.
    Please tell me what to write on a script to get T at pharmacy.
    Also if you could, please retype the info on your T label.
    I am assuming that the one described in Dr John's web site is the one to use, but could use info from your label.

    TESTOSTERONE CYPIONATE IM (Watson)
    Depo®-Testosterone
    testosterone cypionate injection, USP
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    200 mg/mL
    1 mL vials NDC 0009-0417-01
    10 mL vials NDC 0009-0417-02
    Vials should be stored at controlled room temperature 20° to 25°C (68° to 77°F)
    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    How much it cost, where to buy? (Wallmart, Wallgreen??)
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Lots of good info, thank you.

    ReliOn® syringes are available only at Wal-Mart and Sam's Club pharmacies.


    I have located BD Microfine IV U-100 Insulin Syringe 28 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2inch Needle 100/ box
    UPC: UPC: 382908465038 $24.99
    BD Microfine IV U-100 Insulin Syringe 28 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2inch Needle 100/ box
    Possibly it can be a happy medium.

    Not sure if they ship to NJ.
    Wonder if Walmart is selling this size syringe, I did not find it on ReliOn | Information Center
    ============================== ===============
    I am asking my doc and he writes a script with out much to do.
    If I decide to switch to T injections I need to know (details) what to ask for.
    Please tell me what to write on a script to get T at pharmacy.
    Also if you could, please retype the info on your T label.
    I am assuming that the one described in Dr John's web site is the one to use, but could use info from your label.

    TESTOSTERONE CYPIONATE IM (Watson)
    Depo®-Testosterone
    testosterone cypionate injection, USP
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    200 mg/mL
    1 mL vials NDC 0009-0417-01
    10 mL vials NDC 0009-0417-02
    Vials should be stored at controlled room temperature 20° to 25°C (68° to 77°F)
    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    How much it cost, where to buy? (Wallmart, Wallgreen??)
    The #28 may work very well. You can use the thinnest needle you can find for HCG. GCH, IGF-1, HGH peptides are all fragile and it is considered good practice to draw it up and inject slowly as to not damage the peptides. Never shake the bottle. When adding water to the dry peptide, let the water run down the side of the bottle and swirl the bottle gently.

    The current REliOn syringe is made by tyco/monoject aka Kendall healthcare. Don't know who made the prior.

    I have checked out on-line syringe costs and they are always more expensive.

    These cost $12.60 something at Sam's Club and the web info suggests the same price at Wal-Mart.

    I use that Watson's product (10ml). My doc wrote it up as for a Generic, got first vial at Walgreen's and they charged $100 for that. Walgreen's charged me $1.00 per 3ml #22 1.5" syringe. I moved my script to Sam's Club with my Business membership. The same bottle of Watson's cost me $42 at Sam's. That is a business membership only price. There I also got 100 #23 3ml 1.5" syringes for $18, that is $0.18 compared to $1.00 at Walgreen's. I have had no reason to look for better prices elsewhere. And, I also get 10,000 iu of HCG there for $16.25 <-- not a typo. I do not have insurance to cover these costs, so that is very helpful.

    I got my last doctor ordered bloodwork done via lef.org and saved a few hundred collars. To do that, you have to order the BW from lef.org. They will not accept your doctors BW order directly. But I think that they would be glad to assist if you needed help in understanding your doctor's order. LEF.org does not in any way work with your insurance, you have to pay for it. And the BW order will be under their staff or contract doctor's name so insurance would choke on that as well.

    I will see my doctor soon to review that BW and will see if he objects to my doing that. If he is ok with that, I will pre-purchase a year's worth of blood work from lef.org while the bloodwork is on sale... till the end of May. The annual membership fee at lef.org is well worth it. (I actually signed up for a 5 year membership two years ago.)

    Note that the free subscription to LEF magazine that is available at this site does not convey membership buying privileges.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    If he is ok with that, I will pre-purchase a year's worth of blood work from lef.org while the bloodwork is on sale... till the end of May. The annual membership fee at lef.org is well worth it. (I actually signed up for a 5 year membership two years ago.)

    Note that the free subscription to LEF magazine that is available at this site does not convey membership buying privileges.
    I have a membership in LEF.

    Please list LEF links to the complete bloodwork that you are ordering.

    Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I have a membership in LEF.

    Please list LEF links to the complete bloodwork that you are ordering.

    Thank you.
    MALE PANEL TESTS LC322582
    http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/itemLC322582.html
    above includes this:
    http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/itemLC381822.html

    DIHYDROTESTOSTERONE (DHT) LC500142
    http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/itemLC500142.html

    THYROXINE FREE, DIRECT (T4) LC001974
    http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/itemLC304131.html

    THYROID PANEL (TSH, T4, FREE T3) LC304131
    http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/itemLC001974.html

    You will want the first item. The second is not something that all will want to check. The last two are only if there is a need to check thyroid function.

    Current MEMBER prices until the end of MAY.
    (I don't know how the following will display)

    ▼ Product Name Your Price
    MALE PANEL TESTS
    LC322582 $224.00 ea

    DIHYDROTESTOSTERONE (DHT)
    LC500142 $33.75 ea

    THYROXINE FREE, DIRECT (T4)
    LC001974 $21.00 ea

    THYROID PANEL (TSH, T4, FREE T3)
    LC304131 $48.00 ea

    CHEMISTRY PROFILE & COMPLETE BLOOD COUNT
    LC381822 $26.00 ea

    Members also get to talk to a LEF staff/associate physician to discuss the blood work results. They will not diagnose or prescribe, but let you know what's going on.... then you can alter your diet/supplements or see your own physician. My LEF lab work was done by LabCorp.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    MALE PANEL TESTS LC322582
    Male Life Extension Panel
    above includes this:
    Chemistry Profile & Complete Blood Count Test

    DIHYDROTESTOSTERONE (DHT) LC500142
    Dihydrotestosterone (Dht): Blood Tests

    THYROXINE FREE, DIRECT (T4) LC001974
    Thyroid Panel (Tsh, T4, Free T3): Blood Tests

    THYROID PANEL (TSH, T4, FREE T3) LC304131
    Thyroxine Free, Direct (T4): Blood Tests

    You will want the first item. The second is not something that all will want to check. The last two are only if there is a need to check thyroid function.

    Current MEMBER prices until the end of MAY.
    (I don't know how the following will display)

    ▼ Product Name Your Price
    MALE PANEL TESTS
    LC322582 $224.00 ea

    DIHYDROTESTOSTERONE (DHT)
    LC500142 $33.75 ea

    THYROXINE FREE, DIRECT (T4)
    LC001974 $21.00 ea

    THYROID PANEL (TSH, T4, FREE T3)
    LC304131 $48.00 ea

    CHEMISTRY PROFILE & COMPLETE BLOOD COUNT
    LC381822 $26.00 ea

    Members also get to talk to a LEF staff/associate physician to discuss the blood work results. They will not diagnose or prescribe, but let you know what's going on.... then you can alter your diet/supplements or see your own physician. My LEF lab work was done by LabCorp.
    Male Life Extension Panel contains:
    Chemistry Panel/CBC
    Free Testosterone
    Testosterone, Total
    Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) Sulfate
    Prostate-Specific Antigen (PSA)
    Estradiol
    Homocysteine
    C-reactive protein (Cardiac) (High sensitivity)
    ============================== =====
    Dihydrotestosterone (DHT)
    ============================== =====
    THYROID PANEL (TSH, T4, FREE T3)
    ============================== =====
    Thyroxine (T4) Free, Direct
    ============================== =====

    Chemistry Panel/CBC (it is a part of Male Life Extension Panel)

    This test requires fasting.
    This panel is a comprehensive blood evaluation including the following 35 tests:
    Glucose, fasting: This test directly measures glucose levels and is commonly used in the evaluation of diabetes.
    Uric acid: This test is used in the evaluation of gout or recurrent urinary calculi.
    BUN (blood urea nitrogen): This test is used to measure liver function and indirectly to assess renal function and glomerular filtration rate.
    Creatinine: This is a renal function test used to estimate glomerular filtration rate, and follow progression of renal disease.
    BUN/Creatinine ratio: This test is used to diagnose impaired renal function. With creatinine, BUN is used to monitor individuals on dialysis.
    Sodium: This routine test is used to evaluate and monitor fluid and electrolyte balance and therapy.
    Potassium: This routine test is used to evaluate and monitor electrolyte balance and is especially important for cardiac individuals.
    Chloride: This test by itself does not provide adequate information. However, as part of a multiphasic testing for electrolytes it can give an indication of acid-base balance and hydrational status.
    Calcium: This test is used to evaluate parathyroid function and calcium metabolism.
    Phosphorus: This test is used to measure serum phosphorus. An imbalance could indicate the possibility of any number of conditions.
    Protein/Albumin/Globulin: This test is used to assist in the detection of many diseases that affect blood proteins as a whole or one single fraction of protein.
    Albumin/Globulin Ratio: This test is used to evaluate renal disease and other chronic disease.
    Bilirubin: This test is used to evaluate liver function
    Alkaline Phosphatase: This test is used to detect and monitor liver and/or bone disease.
    LDH (Lactic dehydrogenase): This test measures the intracellular enzyme LDH which, when present in the blood, can support the detection of injury or disease.
    AST (SGOT): This test is used to evaluate the possibility of coronary occlusive heart disease or liver disease.
    ALT (SGPT): This test is used to identify liver disease and to distinguish between the liver and red blood cell hemolysis as the source of jaundice.
    Iron: This test is used to evaluate many disease including iron deficiency anemia and hemochromatosis.
    Cholesterol: This test is used to determine the risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) and hyperlipidemias.
    Triglycerides: This test is used to identify the risk of developing coronary heart disease or if fat metabolism disorders are suspected.
    HDL Cholesterol: This test measures alpha lipoprotein and is used to predict heart disease.
    LDL Cholesterol: This test measures beta lipoproteins and is used to predict heart disease.
    Total Cholesterol/HDL Ratio: This test is used to determine the risk for coronary heart disease.
    CBC (complete blood count) with platelets and differential: This is a series of tests of the peripheral blood which provides a variety of information about the blood components. This series includes the following tests:
    Red blood cell count
    Hemoglobin
    Hematocrit
    Red blood cell indices
    Mean corpuscular hemoglobin
    Mean corpuscular hemoglobin concentration
    Red blood cell distribution
    White blood cell count
    Differential count
    Platelet count
    .============================= ============================== ===========================
    Cortisol Am/Pm: Blood Tests
    Cortisol AM and PM

    Estradiol: Blood Tests
    Estradiol

    Estriol: Blood Test
    Estriol

    Estrogens, Total: Blood Tests
    Estrogens, Total

    Estrone: Blood Tests
    Estrone

    Fasting Glucose And Insulin: Blood Tests
    FASTING GLUCOSE/INSULIN

    Fibrinogen, Quantitative: Blood Tests
    Fibrinogen, Quantitative

    Hemoglobin (A1C): Blood Tests
    Hemoglobin A1C

    Homocysteine: Blood Tests
    Homocysteine

    Insulin Like Growth Factor Binding Protein (Igfbp-3)
    INSULIN LIKE GROWTH FACTOR BINDING PROTEIN (IGFBP-3)

    Lipoprotein (A): Blood Tests
    Lipoprotein (a)

    Magnesium: Blood Tests
    MAGNESIUM

    Pregnenolone: Blood Tests
    Pregnenolone

    Progesterone: Blood Tests
    Progesterone

    Prolactin: Blood Tests
    Prolactin
    Prolactin can also be elevated in hypothyroidism when TSH is high.

    Selenium: Blood Tests
    Selenium

    Sex Hormone Binding Globulin: Blood Tests
    Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG)

    Somatomedin-C Frozen Growth Hormone Marker
    Somatomedin-C (IGF-1)

    Vitamin B12 And Folate: Blood Tests
    VITAMIN B12 AND FOLATE

    Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy: Blood Tests
    Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy
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    You can get HCG in a cream? I thought it was only available as a shot.

    ------------------------------------
    I use 250IU/eod (I use Tcream)
    I can feel diference in testicles fullness on the off days.
    I cannot feel any thing else doing HCG shots.
    ------------------------------------
    People using T shots e3d use HCG 250IU on days that are between T shots.
    .[/QUOTE]
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    Quote Originally Posted by aculpep View Post
    You can get HCG in a cream? I thought it was only available as a shot.

    ------------------------------------
    I use 250IU/eod (I use Tcream)
    I can feel diference in testicles fullness on the off days.
    I cannot feel any thing else doing HCG shots.
    ------------------------------------
    People using T shots e3d use HCG 250IU on days that are between T shots.
    .
    [/QUOTE]

    no he's talking about t-cream or testosterone cream....im pretty sure
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    Quote Originally Posted by aculpep View Post
    You can get HCG in a cream? I thought it was only available as a shot.

    ------------------------------------
    I use 250IU/eod (I use Tcream)
    I can feel diference in testicles fullness on the off days.
    I cannot feel any thing else doing HCG shots.
    ------------------------------------
    People using T shots e3d use HCG 250IU on days that are between T shots.
    .
    Sorry, to clarify, I use
    HCG Novarel, 250iu/every other day
    and
    2 grams/day of compounded Testosterone cream, 100mg/1gram.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    HCG has a reasonably long half life of 36 hours which makes the EOD not as hilly as one would expect. And with the T level floor, drops in T will be minimal. I tried injecting T and HCG every days for a month when I switched from weekly T and HCG twice a week. I did that to know what a steady state of things would feel like. I then switched to EOD and things felt the same to me. With the two injections, eliminating 365 injections per year has some merit.

    HCG has a longer 1/2 life than LH.

    EOD was also used in the research that supports 250iu EOD.

    Drawing up the .56ml of test cyp takes a while, but I only have to do that every 8 days (yielding 98mg/wk).
    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    My T increased 16% when HCG was added at 250 EOD. So we should not be concerned with the waviness of the 16% which may be very small.

    I don't see that injecting HCG EOD in-between T injections is worth having to do injections every day. You could try it, but I doubt that you would notice anything.
    Hi KSman;
    I am doing little study
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007

    and would appreciate if you supply some of the data that you gathered while on different routines.

    I think you should have TT levels using 98mg/week dose
    (without HCG, ie; testis are shut down)
    at two different routines
    T shots every day ------------TT=???
    T shots every other day, E2D--TT=???

    Latter you have added HCG 250iu E2D and your TT went up 16%

    I am assuming that you draw blood on the day of the shot right before shot, clarify if that is not the case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    Nope not proven so far hasn't
    Not true anymore.

    HcG solo will desensitize the testes due to FSH shutdown.

    hMG is needed for FSH output.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Hi KSman;
    I am doing little study
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007

    and would appreciate if you supply some of the data that you gathered while on different routines.

    I think you should have TT levels using 98mg/week dose
    (without HCG, ie; testis are shut down)
    at two different routines
    T shots every day ------------TT=???
    T shots every other day, E2D--TT=???

    Latter you have added HCG 250iu E2D and your TT went up 16%

    I am assuming that you draw blood on the day of the shot right before shot, clarify if that is not the case.
    I don't think that ED vs EOD would yield different TT levels.

    When on EOD I test the day after injecting. Levels will not be changing much anyways.

    I do not have blood work from ED injections, that was short term.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    I don't think that ED vs EOD would yield different TT levels.

    When on EOD I test the day after injecting. Levels will not be changing much anyways.

    I do not have blood work from ED injections, that was short term.
    Based on your experience,
    do you see much of a problem with average TotalT levels vs T dose that I approximated using referenced sources here:
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007

    Men in study got shots so their testes were not producing T,
    blood levels were due to T shots only.

    Your 98mg/week dose, say 100mg/week, should have produced TTaverage=776(±75) per that study
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Based on your experience,
    do you see much of a problem with average TotalT levels vs T dose that I approximated using referenced sources here:
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007

    Men in study got shots so their testes were not producing T,
    blood levels were due to T shots only.

    Your 98mg/week dose, say 100mg/week, should have produced TTaverage=776(±75) per that study
    The above is +/- 10%, differences in labs as well.

    I was 886 before starting HCG.

    Some get more or less results. There might need to be an adjustment for lean mass. And conversion of T-->E definately eats T. So corrections could be made for weight and %BF as a measure of aromatization as well as E2 levels. T-->DHT also takes T out of TT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    The above is +/- 10%, differences in labs as well.

    I was 886 before starting HCG.

    Some get more or less results. There might need to be an adjustment for lean mass. And conversion of T-->E definately eats T. So corrections could be made for weight and %BF as a measure of aromatization as well as E2 levels. T-->DHT also takes T out of TT.
    Your 98mg/week dose, say 100mg/week, should have produced TTaverage=776(±75) per that study.
    776+75=851
    you have got 886
    that is close enough in my book.
    If you remember, please describe your routine and time of blood draw when you came with this TT=886.

    Now if someone know his SHBG
    this chart that I posted plus dr Shippen's chart for
    FreeT as a function of TotalT & SHBG
    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/attac...tscanlllll.jpg

    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/533890-post45.html

    can give decent aproximation of a Depo-T starting dose.
  

  
 

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