Looking to start HRT

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    Looking to start HRT


    Hello everyone. First I'd like say I'm new to this and I'll appologize in advance for a stupid question.
    After ALOT of hours reading and studying low T and HRT online,
    I have decided to become a new patient of Dr John's. From everything I've read he seems to be the most knowledegable and understanding Dr. in his field. I'd like to ask a question of his other patients or straight to Dr. John.

    I looked through the stickies and countless posts and when the question of cost of blood tests and/or treatment comes up, it was generally answered with "it depends". I ran tests last fall (from LEF) and have come to the conclusion that I have secondary hypogonadism.

    Since I don't have any health insurance, I'm wondering about how much cash should I have available before seeing him for tests and prescriptions, etc.? Do I pay for labs threough his office or does the lab bill me? I do understand every case is different. I'm just looking for a rough range of what's typical and worse case scenario. That way I'm not wasting anybody's time walking in with say a grand when I need 2-3 or 10 or whatever.

    Any real world info would be greatly appreciated!

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    Quote Originally Posted by b4554 View Post
    Hello everyone. First I'd like say I'm new to this and I'll appologize in advance for a stupid question.
    After ALOT of hours reading and studying low T and HRT online,
    I have decided to become a new patient of Dr John's. From everything I've read he seems to be the most knowledegable and understanding Dr. in his field. I'd like to ask a question of his other patients or straight to Dr. John.

    I looked through the stickies and countless posts and when the question of cost of blood tests and/or treatment comes up, it was generally answered with "it depends". I ran tests last fall (from LEF) and have come to the conclusion that I have secondary hypogonadism.

    Since I don't have any health insurance, I'm wondering about how much cash should I have available before seeing him for tests and prescriptions, etc.? Do I pay for labs threough his office or does the lab bill me? I do understand every case is different. I'm just looking for a rough range of what's typical and worse case scenario. That way I'm not wasting anybody's time walking in with say a grand when I need 2-3 or 10 or whatever.

    Any real world info would be greatly appreciated!
    I am not Dr John's patient (not yet).
    From his web site:
    AllThingsMale.com
    OFFICE VISIT FEE - Office or Virtual $ 50.00
    ANTI-AGING CONSULTATION $300.00
    assume 10 consultations the first year ---$500

    Medicines bought from his web site:
    AllThingsMale.com
    Anastrozole (Compounded) - Compare to Arimidex $ 2.00 PER TAB 0.25 mg Tab --3per week x 52=$312

    HCG - (Novarel - Mixing needle supplied) $ 55.00 PER VIAL 10,000 iu, last 60 days---per year $335

    Pregnenolone Cream 10% $ 85.00 60 mL, last 60days--per year $517

    Testosterone Gel (Compounded) 5% $ 60.00 60 mL last 60 days -- $365

    Thyroid (Armour)(#100) 2 grain $ 40.00 120 mg, 3grains/day-- 219/year

    HGH (Somatropin) - Cold Pack S&H $25.00 $ 248.00 10.3 g / 31 iu Vial -- last 15 days?????? -- per year $6034

    DHEA, DIM, TMG bought somewhere else ----- say LEF DHEA 300mg/day, DualAction 6 pills/day, TMG 1/day ---- $14.25/30days, $22.2/10days, $11.43/180days -- per year $1009

    Blood test from LEF---
    Hormone Panel, Male--- $224 -- 2 per year --per year $448
    Male Life Extension Panel -- $224 -- 2 per year -- per year -$448

    Other blood tests, other supplements, per year $2000
    Travel to Dr John's office (my case from Newark NJ) $800

    ------------------
    Total yearly cost (approx) =300+500+312+335+517+365+219+6 034+1009+448+448+2000+800=13287
    Please add corrections.

    Add urine test at Rhein labs $225 2/year $450
    ---------------------
    Looks little steep, but I did not added yet quite few things.
    But look also at the alternative of not doing it.

    Money do not buy happiness but whats wrong with renting it??
    At 67 and still---
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    Quote Originally Posted by b4554 View Post
    Hello everyone. First I'd like say I'm new to this and I'll appologize in advance for a stupid question.
    After ALOT of hours reading and studying low T and HRT online,
    I have decided to become a new patient of Dr John's.
    Wise choice!

    Quote Originally Posted by b4554 View Post
    From everything I've read he seems to be the most knowledegable and understanding Dr. in his field. I'd like to ask a question of his other patients or straight to Dr. John.

    I looked through the stickies and countless posts and when the question of cost of blood tests and/or treatment comes up, it was generally answered with "it depends". I ran tests last fall (from LEF) and have come to the conclusion that I have secondary hypogonadism.

    Since I don't have any health insurance, I'm wondering about how much cash should I have available before seeing him for tests and prescriptions, etc.? Do I pay for labs threough his office or does the lab bill me? I do understand every case is different. I'm just looking for a rough range of what's typical and worse case scenario. That way I'm not wasting anybody's time walking in with say a grand when I need 2-3 or 10 or whatever.

    Any real world info would be greatly appreciated!
    As JanSz posted, his fees are listed on his website. Considering that I have insurance yet have to pay $45 copay for a "specialist" visit, an additional out of pocket $5 is worth it.

    You will be billed by the lab. When I went for the initial office visiting Lansing, he spent more time with me than most doctors would. He was very thorough, answered all my questions (BRING A NOTEBOOK and take good notes).

    First labs (if blood) could cost close to $1000. He might have you do a 24-hour urine based lab which is only about $230. Get a credit card that does frequent flyer miles. That's how I pay for this stuff.

    Good luck!
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    Thanks to both of you. I should have mentioned I knew the consultation prices from Dr. John's website. I was wondering more about the blood/saliva tests and treatment costs. I think my questions were answered. I can't afford HGH, WOW!!! If I pay the lab seperate, that reduces the cash I need to have on hand dramatically. The rest of the meds seem reasonably affordable. Plus I'm only about 75 miles from Dr. John's office. Thanks again!
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    Quote Originally Posted by b4554 View Post
    Thanks to both of you. I should have mentioned I knew the consultation prices from Dr. John's website. I was wondering more about the blood/saliva tests and treatment costs. I think my questions were answered. I can't afford HGH, WOW!!! If I pay the lab seperate, that reduces the cash I need to have on hand dramatically. The rest of the meds seem reasonably affordable. Plus I'm only about 75 miles from Dr. John's office. Thanks again!
    At least you don't have to buy a plane ticket and hotel room and rental car like some of us :-)

    I don't think you'll be disappointed, but be patient too. Dr. John is good, but the therapy does not fix everything overnight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by b4554 View Post
    Hello everyone. First I'd like say I'm new to this and I'll appologize in advance for a stupid question.
    After ALOT of hours reading and studying low T and HRT online,
    I have decided to become a new patient of Dr John's. From everything I've read he seems to be the most knowledegable and understanding Dr. in his field. I'd like to ask a question of his other patients or straight to Dr. John.

    I looked through the stickies and countless posts and when the question of cost of blood tests and/or treatment comes up, it was generally answered with "it depends". I ran tests last fall (from LEF) and have come to the conclusion that I have secondary hypogonadism.

    Since I don't have any health insurance, I'm wondering about how much cash should I have available before seeing him for tests and prescriptions, etc.? Do I pay for labs threough his office or does the lab bill me? I do understand every case is different. I'm just looking for a rough range of what's typical and worse case scenario. That way I'm not wasting anybody's time walking in with say a grand when I need 2-3 or 10 or whatever.

    Any real world info would be greatly appreciated!
    What is your age? Have you ever done any steroids? Are you a heavy drinker? Are you stressed at work or home?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12 View Post
    What is your age? Have you ever done any steroids? Are you a heavy drinker? Are you stressed at work or home?
    Age 31, never done steroids, rarely drink but a little weed once or twice a week, different stresses comes and goes but this problem has plagued me most of my adult life. Here is a cut and paste I posted on the forum at mesomorphosis.com a few days before I found this site. It gives all the main info. The costs question in it has pretty much been answered for me.


    Hello everyone. In searching online for info on the subject I stumbled onto this site and from what I've read so far, I think I'll find some very knowledgeable help here. This may get a bit long winded and I applogize, but I want to cover everything.

    I'll start at the beginning. Through my teens and until about 19 things were great. Then around 20-21 things took a SHARP nosedive. Severe ED, less energy & stamina, less muscle mass, trouble concentrating, some gyno, poor memory, hard core depression, small flaccid size, small balls, etc. All of the things associated with low T. Only I didn't know that at the time. I'm 31 now and SICK of living with it. I've asked a couple family doctors in my late 20's and got treated like a hypochondriac nutcase. Last summer, I asked my doctor to do a T test. I never actually saw the results (didn't know at the time he was required to show me), he said I was in the "Normal" range, though he did say JUST BARELY. I then discovered Life Extension and ordered the biggest set of blod tests they offer (LabCorp). I got the results last fall and didn't really know where to go from there. I'll list the ones I think relevant and the scale range listed in patenthesis.

    Thyroid 1.700 ( 0.350 - 5.500 )
    PSA 0.7 ( 0.0 - 4.0 )
    Testosterone 407 ( 241 - 827 )
    Free Testosterone 12.4 ( 8.7 - 25.1 )
    LH 5.9 ( 1.5 - 9.3 )
    FSH 2.1 ( 1.4 - 18.1)
    Progesterone 0.8 ( 0.3 - 1.2)
    DHEA - Sulfate 178 ( 120 - 520)
    Estradiol 27 ( 0 - 53 )

    I also heve 30 or so other test results if any of the others are useful let me know and I'll list them. Unfortunately don't have SHBG.

    I'd like to mention that I think the results of that test were skewed. I was using T-Bomb II (from GNC with Tribulus among other things) and super Mira Forte (chysin and bioperine). I think these products raised my T & LH and lowered my E2 some. My FSH is rock bottom. The problems I have weren't quite as bad while I was using those products.

    I'll just go ahead and be open and honest. I don't get sleeping or morning wood. If I do, it's fairly rare and it's flying at half mast. Being able to have any kind of quality sex without Cialis is extremely rare. Over the last 10 years I've been with 3 different women and never been able to get anyone pregnant. Cialis doesn't work nearly as good as it used to, and Viagra and Levitra, while they worked great for awhile don't do anything anymore. I'm tired of ED to the point of suicide. Very, very serious. I'd also like to be able to be a father in the near future.

    I am thinking about HCG. TRT I think would make certain problems worse. I am also thinking about an aromiize inhibitor like Clomid or Arimidex that I read about in other threads. What all should I expect from these products? Do you think they would fix my problems? Create any new ones? Also, my hair is starting to noticably thin out. Would hair loss be aggrivated, reduced or would there be no effect on it?

    In one of the threads I read about All Things Male. I cannot open some of the info on their site as I don't have Word. They seem to come highly recommended and they are only a couple hours from me. Before I do I am looking for any advice I can find. I am planning to order more blood tests before I go there and am wondering what all to get.and where is the most economical yet reliable place to get them from?

    Another BIG question is an idea of what should I expect for costs of doctor vistis and medications?

    Again I appologize for the long post and multiple questions, I'm just desperate for some friendly help & advice.
    Thanks to those who took the time to read this.
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    b4554: Your total and free test levels are almost exactly where mine were when I started on TRT. Don't give up man.....go see Dr. John. Just don't schedule your appointment on 06 Jun. That is when I go see him!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoMdHunter View Post
    b4554: Your total and free test levels are almost exactly where mine were when I started on TRT. Don't give up man.....go see Dr. John. Just don't schedule your appointment on 06 Jun. That is when I go see him!

    Hope I'm not prying by asking, but can you give me a brief overview of the treatments you've been on, amount of time on them and how the results have been thus far? Thanks!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by b4554 View Post
    Hope I'm not prying by asking, but can you give me a brief overview of the treatments you've been on, amount of time on them and how the results have been thus far? Thanks!!!
    After my last post I noticed and read your 5 page thread detailing your ordeal. I feel for you man. I know all too well the emotional trauma of unrelenting ED. I've got to say I became more amd more depressed reading your experiences with injecting test. Hopefully seeing Dr. John will work out for both of us in getting all the variables correct to get to the root of the problem. I'm just recently single after being in a 6 year and then a 4 year committed relationships. The first girl didn't really like sex that much so my ED wasn't such a huge deal to me at the time. The second woman liked sex and I felt like much less than a man after awhile. For the first few months of our relationship she didn't even know I had ED because I used HUGE quantities of Viagra then Levitra then Cialis. I now have tolerances built up to them (to the point Viagra and Levitra even at triple doses does nothing). I would like to find myself in a better relationship this summer with a more caring more understanding woman, but am terrified of having to have to explain all this to a new gf. Plus how do you tell a woman in her twenties or early thirties that you can never have kids??? Atleast you had a family and understanding wife before the problems started. I'm hopeful HCG/HMG will allow me some fertility.
    On a side note I am also in the same boat as you on saving up before seeing Dr. John. How much money have you been figuring on to have as a reserve before seeing him?
    I called his office around 2 yesterday afternoon and left a message about becoming a new patient. I haven't heard back yet so I don't know how soon I'd be able to get an appointment.

    Best of luck to you bro and keep up posted! Todd
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I am not Dr John's patient (not yet).
    From his web site:
    AllThingsMale.com
    OFFICE VISIT FEE - Office or Virtual $ 50.00
    ANTI-AGING CONSULTATION $300.00
    assume 10 consultations the first year ---$500

    Medicines bought from his web site:
    AllThingsMale.com
    Anastrozole (Compounded) - Compare to Arimidex $ 2.00 PER TAB 0.25 mg Tab --3per week x 52=$312

    HCG - (Novarel - Mixing needle supplied) $ 55.00 PER VIAL 10,000 iu, last 60 days---per year $335

    Pregnenolone Cream 10% $ 85.00 60 mL, last 60days--per year $517

    Testosterone Gel (Compounded) 5% $ 60.00 60 mL last 60 days -- $365

    Thyroid (Armour)(#100) 2 grain $ 40.00 120 mg, 3grains/day-- 219/year

    HGH (Somatropin) - Cold Pack S&H $25.00 $ 248.00 10.3 g / 31 iu Vial -- last 15 days?????? -- per year $6034

    DHEA, DIM, TMG bought somewhere else ----- say LEF DHEA 300mg/day, DualAction 6 pills/day, TMG 1/day ---- $14.25/30days, $22.2/10days, $11.43/180days -- per year $1009

    Blood test from LEF---
    Hormone Panel, Male--- $224 -- 2 per year --per year $448
    Male Life Extension Panel -- $224 -- 2 per year -- per year -$448

    Other blood tests, other supplements, per year $2000
    Travel to Dr John's office (my case from Newark NJ) $800

    ------------------
    Total yearly cost (approx) =300+500+312+335+517+365+219+6 034+1009+448+448+2000+800=13287
    Please add corrections.

    Add urine test at Rhein labs $225 2/year $450
    ---------------------
    Looks little steep, but I did not added yet quite few things.
    But look also at the alternative of not doing it.

    Money do not buy happiness but whats wrong with renting it??
    At 67 and still---
    DR J....

    Does it cost that much per YR to be a patient.....? with Blue Cross PPO..?
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    Dr. John does not bill your insurance for you. You must pay him his fee, get a receipt and submit your own claim to your insurance. You might need to meet an out-of-network deductible before you get reimbursed. You can also call his office and ask his assistant about this.
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    Why dont you try to stop smoking weed? Weed lowers Testosterone! If you need to relax get some Phenibut (its works well and its legal)
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    Weed is good for elevating your estrogen levels.
    Stay off all the herbal stuff (T-Bomb, etc...) and get another blood test including E2..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12 View Post
    Why dont you try to stop smoking weed? Weed lowers Testosterone! If you need to relax get some Phenibut (its works well and its legal)
    Show me the study. Any study directly linking THC and lowered testosterone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Show me the study. Any study directly linking THC and lowered testosterone.
    Ok..I could not find any studies that directly linked it and its a topic of debate in the medical community. So, this guy has a problem with Testosterone being on the low side then wouldn't it make sense to stop smoking pot to rule that out as being the culprit instead of jumping on to HRT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12 View Post
    Ok..I could not find any studies that directly linked it and its a topic of debate in the medical community. So, this guy has a problem with Testosterone being on the low side then wouldn't it make sense to stop smoking pot to rule that out as being the culprit instead of jumping on to HRT
    THC has no effect on T or E production. Obviously it isn't healthy and Im not condoning it, but just calling a spade a spade.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    THC has no effect on T or E production. Obviously it isn't healthy and Im not condoning it, but just calling a spade a spade.

    Marijuana extracts possess the effects like the endocrine disrupting chemicals.Watanabe K, Motoya E, Matsuzawa N, Funahashi T, Kimura T, Matsunaga T, Arizono K, Yamamoto I.
    Department of Hygienic Chemistry, Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Hokuriku University, Ho-3 Kanagawa-machi, Kanazawa 920-1181, Japan. k-watanabe@hokuriku-u.ac.jp

    The progesterone 17alpha-hydroxylase activity, which is one of the steroidogenic enzymes in rat testis microsomes, was significantly inhibited by crude marijuana extracts from Delta(9)-tetrahydrocannabinolic acid (THCA)- and cannabidiolic acid (CBDA)-strains. Delta(9)-Tetrahydrocannabinol, cannabidiol and cannabinol also inhibited the enzymatic activity with relatively higher concentration (100-1000 microM). Testosterone 6beta- and 16alpha-hydroxylase activities together with androstenedione formation from testosterone in rat liver microsomes were also significantly inhibited by the crude marijuana extracts and the cannabinoids. Crude marijuana extracts (1 and 10 microg/ml) of THCA strain stimulated the proliferation of MCF-7 cells, although the purified cannabinoids (THC, CBD and CBN) did not show significant effects, such as the extract at the concentration of 0.01-1000 nM. These results indicate that there are some metabolic interactions between cannabinoid and steroid metabolism and that the constituents showing estrogen-like activity exist in marijuana.
    PMID: 15588936 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Also have you ever seen any hippies that act like they have an once of Testosterone? I hate f****** Hippies!
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    Quote Originally Posted by b4554 View Post
    Hope I'm not prying by asking, but can you give me a brief overview of the treatments you've been on, amount of time on them and how the results have been thus far? Thanks!!!
    Sure. I was first put on Andrgel at 5mg per day. After 3 months, I still had severe ED, depressed libido, no morning or nocturnal erections, no increase in strength or stamina, sleepy all the time etc.... Essentially I noticed absolutely no difference.

    I'm now on 100mgs Test C per week. I've seen improvement, but not as much as I expected. Total test only went from 460 to 487 and free went from 12 to 17.

    Before I do anything else, I'm going to go see Dr John. I need an expert as my Urologist said he doesn't have time to work with me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12 View Post
    Also have you ever seen any hippies that act like they have an once of Testosterone? I hate f****** Hippies!
    Make Love not War.

    So they could not do either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by b4554 View Post
    After my last post I noticed and read your 5 page thread detailing your ordeal. I feel for you man. I know all too well the emotional trauma of unrelenting ED. I've got to say I became more amd more depressed reading your experiences with injecting test. Hopefully seeing Dr. John will work out for both of us in getting all the variables correct to get to the root of the problem. I'm just recently single after being in a 6 year and then a 4 year committed relationships. The first girl didn't really like sex that much so my ED wasn't such a huge deal to me at the time. The second woman liked sex and I felt like much less than a man after awhile. For the first few months of our relationship she didn't even know I had ED because I used HUGE quantities of Viagra then Levitra then Cialis. I now have tolerances built up to them (to the point Viagra and Levitra even at triple doses does nothing). I would like to find myself in a better relationship this summer with a more caring more understanding woman, but am terrified of having to have to explain all this to a new gf. Plus how do you tell a woman in her twenties or early thirties that you can never have kids??? Atleast you had a family and understanding wife before the problems started. I'm hopeful HCG/HMG will allow me some fertility.
    On a side note I am also in the same boat as you on saving up before seeing Dr. John. How much money have you been figuring on to have as a reserve before seeing him?
    I called his office around 2 yesterday afternoon and left a message about becoming a new patient. I haven't heard back yet so I don't know how soon I'd be able to get an appointment.

    Best of luck to you bro and keep up posted! Todd
    Yeah, I hear ya about feeling like less of a man. But if you met the right woman, and she knows you are attempting at getting fixed up, she will have the patience of Job. So don't let that worry ya.

    As for the funds, I already purchased my tickets......I'm going to fly out. Prices are reasonable right now. I also wanted to get a jump on them with the price of gasoline going up again.

    The initial office visit is $300, so you will need that as well. I figure another $200 for general expenses and I will be all set. My plan is to see him and discuss what tests he wants to do and the next step. I'll do each as I can afford it. The tests are easy since my insurance will cover that through my Urologist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoMdHunter View Post
    Yeah, I hear ya about feeling like less of a man. But if you met the right woman, and she knows you are attempting at getting fixed up, she will have the patience of Job. So don't let that worry ya.

    As for the funds, I already purchased my tickets......I'm going to fly out. Prices are reasonable right now. I also wanted to get a jump on them with the price of gasoline going up again.

    The initial office visit is $300, so you will need that as well. I figure another $200 for general expenses and I will be all set. My plan is to see him and discuss what tests he wants to do and the next step. I'll do each as I can afford it. The tests are easy since my insurance will cover that through my Urologist.
    I got a call today from DJ's office and talked to Kim for a few minutes. She told me that for a guy w/o ins. that the doc uses a $225 urine panel for testing and orders extra tests if needed. Also said what's been said here that most treatments cost only 30-40 bucks a month. Also a new patient can bee seen in only a week or two, I was expecting a couple months. That's all good news to me, I'll be able to have the necessary $$$ and appt. sooner than expected. Isn't that nice that your urologist doesn't have time for you, but doesn't probably have a hard finding time to bill you for any minute he spent with you so far without really fixing the problem!



    On the weed discussion, I'm definately no hippie. I only smoke occasionally when I need to relax and get a little break from my crappy life. I've gone years without touching it and had a couple periods where I went through LARGE quantities and never noticed any difference in my symptoms either way. IMHO since weed isn't really taxable and alcohol is, the powers that be want everyone using man-made alcohol instead of an all natural product that can be grown at home. As a good way to get guys not to use it, just threaten them with shrunken balls, that'll chase off alot of them .

    Hyde12, I'm not familar with Phenibut, I'll do some searching and check it out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by b4554 View Post
    I got a call today from DJ's office and talked to Kim for a few minutes. She told me that for a guy w/o ins. that the doc uses a $225 urine panel for testing and orders extra tests if needed. Also said what's been said here that most treatments cost only 30-40 bucks a month. Also a new patient can bee seen in only a week or two, I was expecting a couple months. That's all good news to me, I'll be able to have the necessary $$$ and appt. sooner than expected. Isn't that nice that your urologist doesn't have time for you, but doesn't probably have a hard finding time to bill you for any minute he spent with you so far without really fixing the problem!



    On the weed discussion, I'm definately no hippie. I only smoke occasionally when I need to relax and get a little break from my crappy life. I've gone years without touching it and had a couple periods where I went through LARGE quantities and never noticed any difference in my symptoms either way. IMHO since weed isn't really taxable and alcohol is, the powers that be want everyone using man-made alcohol instead of an all natural product that can be grown at home. As a good way to get guys not to use it, just threaten them with shrunken balls, that'll chase off alot of them .

    Hyde12, I'm not familar with Phenibut, I'll do some searching and check it out.
    Nutraplanet has phenibut. Phenibut is so nice. Helps me relax when I'm stressed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12 View Post
    Marijuana extracts possess the effects like the endocrine disrupting chemicals.Watanabe K, Motoya E, Matsuzawa N, Funahashi T, Kimura T, Matsunaga T, Arizono K, Yamamoto I.
    Department of Hygienic Chemistry, Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Hokuriku University, Ho-3 Kanagawa-machi, Kanazawa 920-1181, Japan. k-watanabe@hokuriku-u.ac.jp

    The progesterone 17alpha-hydroxylase activity, which is one of the steroidogenic enzymes in rat testis microsomes, was significantly inhibited by crude marijuana extracts from Delta(9)-tetrahydrocannabinolic acid (THCA)- and cannabidiolic acid (CBDA)-strains. Delta(9)-Tetrahydrocannabinol, cannabidiol and cannabinol also inhibited the enzymatic activity with relatively higher concentration (100-1000 microM). Testosterone 6beta- and 16alpha-hydroxylase activities together with androstenedione formation from testosterone in rat liver microsomes were also significantly inhibited by the crude marijuana extracts and the cannabinoids. Crude marijuana extracts (1 and 10 microg/ml) of THCA strain stimulated the proliferation of MCF-7 cells, although the purified cannabinoids (THC, CBD and CBN) did not show significant effects, such as the extract at the concentration of 0.01-1000 nM. These results indicate that there are some metabolic interactions between cannabinoid and steroid metabolism and that the constituents showing estrogen-like activity exist in marijuana.
    PMID: 15588936 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    Thanks! First time ever seeing that. I wonder what kind of/how much decrease in androgen hormones.

    Makes me glad I quit smoking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    I don't think anyone has had 10 office visits in a year.

    And we don't know what you will, or will not, need.
    Doctor John;
    TRT is only a part of overal health maintenance.
    Will you work with your patient in designing his suplement regime.
    Now, since you are officially associated with LEF,
    I could use complete evaluation and total supplement advice and management using LEF product.
    LEF starts with list of 10 most often used supplements but then what about the other supplements and other health concerns.
    I currently use many of their products.
    I am sure my list could be greatly improved.
    I got a good help from LEF doctors and advisors,
    but it was newer comprehensive evaluation.
    What say you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    I don't think anyone has had 10 office visits in a year.

    And we don't know what you will, or will not, need.
    Thank you for your reply Dr. Crisler . Since I am new to the idea of HRT, I was just seeking some rough ideas pertaining to general testing and treatment costs. Now I have a pretty good idea of the cost of different treatments. I wanted to be financially prepared for meeting you so I could start on any and all treatments you will recommend, that way I wouldn't waste any of your time or mine. Todd
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Doctor John;
    TRT is only a part of overal health maintenance.
    Will you work with your patient in designing his suplement regime.
    Now, since you are officially associated with LEF,
    I could use complete evaluation and total supplement advice and management using LEF product.
    LEF starts with list of 10 most often used supplements but then what about the other supplements and other health concerns.
    I currently use many of their products.
    I am sure my list could be greatly improved.
    I got a good help from LEF doctors and advisors,
    but it was newer comprehensive evaluation.
    What say you?
    Jansz,
    Ive been studying supplements for years. There are good and bad ones out there. One I recommend is fish oil + vit E.

    Biotest makes the best fish oil on the market today. Vit E I get from Carlsons.

    Next I would go with a ZMA product. Every athlete is taking these. Again, Biotest because its cheap. Zinc and magnesium, two wonderfull minerals.

    I have heard some promising stuff about Resveratrol. Again, I trust Biotest.

    Another great product that I love is Greens Plus. Its a blend of organic vegetables and a whole list of other substances. It has been put threw testing and is currently the only green supplemental powder that has submitted its products for mandated testing. It has past with flying colors when it comes to purity and quality. Greens Plus - Superfood rich in chlorophyll.. They also make protein powder, which I will be switching over to once my Biotest Whey is all gone.

    And I love creatine. Again, Biotest.

    Those above are my staples. One must be carefull not to over-antioxident themselves.

    I am reading up on new stuff daily. One particular compound that has piqued my interest is selenium. Another is Carlsons vitamin A/C/E selenium combo.

    I do not take multi vitamins and I do not recommend anyone to do so. They are all poorly absorbed, compete with eachother and can be dangerous. No company has put one out yet that I feel meets my expectations. A good first start would be to seperate the vitamins from the minerals and to make sure to leave calcium out as it blocks mineral absorbtion. Companies still havent figured this out yet. Oh well. We always have tomorrow right.

    All this stuff/products can be googled for further info.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Jansz,
    Ive been studying supplements for years. There are good and bad ones out there. One I recommend is fish oil + vit E.

    Biotest makes the best fish oil on the market today. Vit E I get from Carlsons.

    Next I would go with a ZMA product. Every athlete is taking these. Again, Biotest because its cheap. Zinc and magnesium, two wonderfull minerals.

    I have heard some promising stuff about Resveratrol. Again, I trust Biotest.

    Another great product that I love is Greens Plus. Its a blend of organic vegetables and a whole list of other substances. It has been put threw testing and is currently the only green supplemental powder that has submitted its products for mandated testing. It has past with flying colors when it comes to purity and quality. Greens Plus - Superfood rich in chlorophyll.. They also make protein powder, which I will be switching over to once my Biotest Whey is all gone.

    And I love creatine. Again, Biotest.

    Those above are my staples. One must be carefull not to over-antioxident themselves.

    I am reading up on new stuff daily. One particular compound that has piqued my interest is selenium. Another is Carlsons vitamin A/C/E selenium combo.

    I do not take multi vitamins and I do not recommend anyone to do so. They are all poorly absorbed, compete with eachother and can be dangerous. No company has put one out yet that I feel meets my expectations. A good first start would be to seperate the vitamins from the minerals and to make sure to leave calcium out as it blocks mineral absorbtion. Companies still havent figured this out yet. Oh well. We always have tomorrow right.

    All this stuff/products can be googled for further info.
    Wow, thanks
    ------------------
    How to save URL for individual post, such as the one you just posted.
    I am able to do that for a whole thread, cumbersome.?
    On the other site this can easily be accomplished, for example:
    MESO-Rx - View Single Post - I am on HRT with DIM...
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Wow, thanks
    ------------------
    How to save URL for individual post, such as the one you just posted.
    I am able to do that for a whole thread, cumbersome.?
    On the other site this can easily be accomplished, for example:
    MESO-Rx - View Single Post - I am on HRT with DIM...
    I would just do a simple cut and paste, and paste it to a empty word document, and save that to your hard drive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Jansz,
    Ive been studying supplements for years. There are good and bad ones out there. One I recommend is fish oil + vit E.

    Biotest makes the best fish oil on the market today. Vit E I get from Carlsons.

    Next I would go with a ZMA product. Every athlete is taking these. Again, Biotest because its cheap. Zinc and magnesium, two wonderfull minerals.

    I have heard some promising stuff about Resveratrol. Again, I trust Biotest.

    Another great product that I love is Greens Plus. Its a blend of organic vegetables and a whole list of other substances. It has been put threw testing and is currently the only green supplemental powder that has submitted its products for mandated testing. It has past with flying colors when it comes to purity and quality. Greens Plus - Superfood rich in chlorophyll.. They also make protein powder, which I will be switching over to once my Biotest Whey is all gone.

    And I love creatine. Again, Biotest.

    Those above are my staples. One must be carefull not to over-antioxident themselves.

    I am reading up on new stuff daily. One particular compound that has piqued my interest is selenium. Another is Carlsons vitamin A/C/E selenium combo.

    I do not take multi vitamins and I do not recommend anyone to do so. They are all poorly absorbed, compete with eachother and can be dangerous. No company has put one out yet that I feel meets my expectations. A good first start would be to seperate the vitamins from the minerals and to make sure to leave calcium out as it blocks mineral absorbtion. Companies still havent figured this out yet. Oh well. We always have tomorrow right.

    All this stuff/products can be googled for further info.
    In trying to figure out shopping list I need your help, so far I have got my sketchy list below:

    Testosterone Nation - Products
    Biotest fish oil ----- Flameout-- $24.99
    ZMA-- $9.00
    REZ-V _$34.99
    MICRINIZED GERMAN CREATINE $12.99

    Vit E I get from Carlsons-------- please provide link
    Carlsons vitamin A/C/E selenium combo--------- please provide link
    ============================== ============================== =====
    Products [url=http://www.greensplus.com/]
    Greens Plus (five sub groups) ---------------------------------- which one ??
    Protein Greens Plus (two sub groups, soy and whey) --- which one, probably a whey
    Fiber Greens Plus
    Pro-Relief Plus
    Coral Calcium Plus
    Greens Plus Energy Bar
    Greens Plus Protein Bar
    Thermo Greens Plus

    Greens+ UltraPure Products
    Jungle Greens Plus
    ============================== ==============
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    In trying to figure out shopping list I need your help, so far I have got my sketchy list below:

    Testosterone Nation - Products
    Biotest fish oil ----- Flameout-- $24.99
    ZMA-- $9.00
    REZ-V _$34.99
    MICRINIZED GERMAN CREATINE $12.99

    Vit E I get from Carlsons-------- please provide link
    Carlsons vitamin A/C/E selenium combo--------- please provide link
    ============================== ============================== =====
    Products [url=http://www.greensplus.com/]
    Greens Plus (five sub groups) ---------------------------------- which one ??
    Protein Greens Plus (two sub groups, soy and whey) --- which one, probably a whey
    Fiber Greens Plus
    Pro-Relief Plus
    Coral Calcium Plus
    Greens Plus Energy Bar
    Greens Plus Protein Bar
    Thermo Greens Plus

    Greens+ UltraPure Products
    Jungle Greens Plus
    ============================== ==============

    Yes, just go to the T-Nation store and you can order from there. Free shipping on all orders over 150.

    T-nation products are very reasonable if you play around with the dose. Flameout for example is so potent that you could get away with 2 caps a day, meaning a 25 dollar bottle will last you 45 days.

    Resveratrol(REZ-V) I take one cap a week. That 35 dollar bottle lasts me 72 weeks.

    I have had my creatine tub for 6 months now.

    ZMA is 9 bucks a month.

    From the greens plus people, I use Wild Berry Greens Plus Powder. http://greensplus.com/product_info.php/cPath/67_21_23/products_id/130. I mix this in my Whey shakes. I use One teaspoon instead of 3 to stretch the bottle out to 90 days instead of 30. I will be buying the Whey Greens Protein soon. http://greensplus.com/product_info.php/cPath/67_21_83_77/products_id/202. Do not ever eat Soy. My whey shakes look like this, and I drink one every day for breakfast.

    1 scoop whey
    ice and water
    handfull walnutts
    2 tablespoons olive oil
    Creatine a couple days a week
    Frozen fruit or Veg, usually strawberries or blueberries, sometimes blackberries or rasberries
    Banana
    Apple
    Yogurt
    1 teaspoon Wild Berry Greens

    I like to buy most fruit like blueberries/blackberries/strawberries in large bulk quantities frozen from the grocery store. They are much cheaper that way and last forever.

    For Carlsons my local Better Health store carries them. If you do not have one in your area, get it here from Carlsons website - http://www.carlsonlabs.com

    I use E Gems Elite 400IU. I may be picking up there A/C/E/Selenium combo as well and taking that once a week as well. I take Vit E everyday along with all my other supps everyday, except Resveratrol is once a week.

    You probably do have a Better Health store though - This place kicks serious ass, they have everything - http://www.thebetterhealthstore.com/

    For all the michigan people on the board, they have 2 near Detroit - one in Plymouth and one in Novi. The Novi store is amazing, and includes a whole list of organic foods and products. Free Range meat/eggs, all natural soap/health care products, all the organic fruit and veggies you could imagine, and a laundry list of supplements. Great place.

    One more thing - Always remember to take FishOil with food - Your body will burn fish oil for energy and NOT store it if you don't.
    Last edited by plymouth city; 04-10-2007 at 11:52 AM. Reason: none
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Yes, just go to the T-Nation store and you can order from there. Free shipping on all orders over 150.

    T-nation products are very reasonable if you play around with the dose. Flameout for example is so potent that you could get away with 2 caps a day, meaning a 25 dollar bottle will last you 45 days.

    Resveratrol(REZ-V) I take one cap a week. That 35 dollar bottle lasts me 72 weeks.

    I have had my creatine tub for 6 months now.

    ZMA is 9 bucks a month.

    From the greens plus people, I use Wild Berry Greens Plus Powder. Greens Plus - Superfood rich in chlorophyll.. I mix this in my Whey shakes. I use One teaspoon instead of 3 to stretch the bottle out to 90 days instead of 30. I will be buying the Whey Greens Protein soon. Greens Plus - Superfood rich in chlorophyll.. Do not ever eat Soy. My whey shakes look like this, and I drink one every day for breakfast.

    1 scoop whey
    ice and water
    handfull walnutts
    2 tablespoons olive oil
    Creatine a couple days a week
    Frozen fruit or Veg, usually strawberries or blueberries, sometimes blackberries or rasberries
    Banana
    Apple
    Yogurt
    1 teaspoon Wild Berry Greens

    I like to buy most fruit like blueberries/blackberries/strawberries in large bulk quantities frozen from the grocery store. They are much cheaper that way and last forever.

    For Carlsons my local Better Health store carries them. If you do not have one in your area, get it here from Carlsons website - Carlson Laboratories

    I use E Gems Elite 400IU. I may be picking up there A/C/E/Selenium combo as well and taking that once a week as well. I take Vit E everyday along with all my other supps everyday, except Resveratrol is once a week.

    You probably do have a Better Health store though - This place kicks serious ass, they have everything - Better Health Store Vitamins, Supplements, Organic Foods

    For all the michigan people on the board, they have 2 near Detroit - one in Plymouth and one in Novi. The Novi store is amazing, and includes a whole list of organic foods and products. Free Range meat/eggs, all natural soap/health care products, all the organic fruit and veggies you could imagine, and a laundry list of supplements. Great place.

    One more thing - Always remember to take FishOil with food - Your body will burn fish oil for energy and NOT store it if you don't.
    That is a great piece of information, THANK YOU.
    Now I will have to compare all this to mine LEF list.
    --------------------------
    Do not want to start anything, but...
    I have read somewhere that in USA the are no decent law to prevent supplier to sell used car oil and call it olive oil.
    Well, except for California. The buddy from another board claimed that Olive Oil made in California (presumably from Californian olives) is the only sure real thing.
    I was trying to buy californian Olive Oil but hate to spend $90 plus shipping for a two bottles of oil.
    I guess I will stay with my Bertoli Extra Virgin from locai Shop-Rite.

    Buy Extra Virgin Olive Oil at Olinda Ridge Olive Company Online Store
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post

    Resveratrol(REZ-V) I take one cap a week. That 35 dollar bottle lasts me 72 weeks.
    If the serving size is 3 caps for 300mg, why do you take it only once a week? Or, how do you know that once a week is enough?
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    plymouth city
    Looking to start HRT
    ;---http://www.thebetterhealthstore.com/
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    BIOTEST--http://www.t-nation.com/category.jsp?categoryID=34&pag eNo=1&s=navStore
    ZMA-- $9.00 (Zinc, Magnesium, B6) 3 capsules a day
    REZ-V _$34.99 (3 tabs a day) plymut says 1/week Resveratrol (Biotest)
    Flameout--Biotest fish oil ----- $24.99 (4pills a day) plymout says 2 is enough
    MICRINIZED GERMAN CREATINE $12.99 (5grams a day, one scoop)
    Whey Protein (Biotest) (Grow! Premium Quality Whey) to be replaced by Protein Greens Whey Natural
    CLA (Biotest) it is part of Flameout ???
    E-Gems Elite 400 IU ;---http://www.carlsonlabs.com/product_detail.phtml?prodid=10 008046&categid=0001
    ACES A/C/E/Selenium ;---http://www.carlsonlabs.com/product_detail.phtml?prodid=00 110
    GREENS Plus® Wild Berry Burst ;---http://greensplus.com/product_info.php/cPath/67_21_23/products_id/130.
    PROTEIN GREENS+™ Whey Natural ;---http://greensplus.com/product_info.php/cPath/67_21_83_77/products_id/202


    My whey shakes look like this, and I drink one every day for breakfast.
    1 scoop whey
    ice and water
    handfull walnutts
    2 tablespoons olive oil
    Creatine a couple days a week
    Frozen fruit or Veg, usually strawberries or blueberries, sometimes blackberries or rasberries
    Banana
    Apple
    Yogurt
    1 teaspoon Greens Plus Wild Berry
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    That is a great piece of information, THANK YOU.
    Now I will have to compare all this to mine LEF list.
    --------------------------
    Do not want to start anything, but...
    I have read somewhere that in USA the are no decent law to prevent supplier to sell used car oil and call it olive oil.
    Well, except for California. The buddy from another board claimed that Olive Oil made in California (presumably from Californian olives) is the only sure real thing.
    I was trying to buy californian Olive Oil but hate to spend $90 plus shipping for a two bottles of oil.
    I guess I will stay with my Bertoli Extra Virgin from locai Shop-Rite.

    Buy Extra Virgin Olive Oil at Olinda Ridge Olive Company Online Store

    What? Car Oil? LOL not here in the USA bro, everything is legit out of fear of lawsuit(Love or hate the FDA, they protect all of us)
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildfox View Post
    If the serving size is 3 caps for 300mg, why do you take it only once a week? Or, how do you know that once a week is enough?
    One cap of resveratrol a week, at 100mg, is equal to a diet EXTREMELY high in resveratrol containing foods.(grapes/nuts/seeds)

    Resveratrol is not a proven compound in humans. It has shown AMAZING properties in animal studies, in preventing disease and expanding life. It has shown to help keep estrogen in check in males. But until it is proven more in human studies, I don't wanna spend alot of money on it. My budget is tight. So 35 bucks for over a year supply isn't bad. This way I have more money to spend on other compounds that are more proven, like fish oil and other things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    plymouth city
    Looking to start HRT
    ;---http://www.thebetterhealthstore.com/
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    BIOTEST--http://www.t-nation.com/category.jsp?categoryID=34&pag eNo=1&s=navStore
    ZMA-- $9.00 (Zinc, Magnesium, B6) 3 capsules a day
    REZ-V _$34.99 (3 tabs a day) plymut says 1/week Resveratrol (Biotest)
    Flameout--Biotest fish oil ----- $24.99 (4pills a day) plymout says 2 is enough
    MICRINIZED GERMAN CREATINE $12.99 (5grams a day, one scoop)
    Whey Protein (Biotest) (Grow! Premium Quality Whey) to be replaced by Protein Greens Whey Natural
    CLA (Biotest) it is part of Flameout ???
    E-Gems Elite 400 IU ;---http://www.carlsonlabs.com/product_detail.phtml?prodid=10 008046&categid=0001
    ACES A/C/E/Selenium ;---http://www.carlsonlabs.com/product_detail.phtml?prodid=00 110
    GREENS Plus® Wild Berry Burst ;---http://greensplus.com/product_info.php/cPath/67_21_23/products_id/130.
    PROTEIN GREENS+™ Whey Natural ;---http://greensplus.com/product_info.php/cPath/67_21_83_77/products_id/202


    My whey shakes look like this, and I drink one every day for breakfast.
    1 scoop whey
    ice and water
    handfull walnutts
    2 tablespoons olive oil
    Creatine a couple days a week
    Frozen fruit or Veg, usually strawberries or blueberries, sometimes blackberries or rasberries
    Banana
    Apple
    Yogurt
    1 teaspoon Greens Plus Wild Berry

    YES. CLA's anti cancer and anti inflammatory properties are GOLD, it is extremely potent. However, all the other CLA products on the market are crap due to the fact that the correct isonomer for CLA needs to be extracted. Nobody did this until Biotest came along(no suprise, they continue to push the edge).
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    What? Car Oil? LOL not here in the USA bro, everything is legit out of fear of lawsuit(Love or hate the FDA, they protect all of us)
    Used car oil was a "slight" exaggeration just to get your attention.
    But other lack of quality. Virgin defined too broadly, or # of pressings and so on.
    Similar to what we are discussing of differences between
    Biotest and no-name supplements.
    I was told that other than when made in California there are no enforceable law that applies to olive oil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Used car oil was a "slight" exaggeration just to get your attention.
    But other lack of quality. Virgin defined too broadly, or # of pressings and so on.
    Similar to what we are discussing of differences between
    Biotest and no-name supplements.
    I was told that other than when made in California there are no enforceable law that applies to olive oil.
    LOL gotcha. I use Bertoli as well. Extra Virgin and first cold press is the way to go. Olive oil is the way for me to go, as in I just can't stomach real olives they make me want to vomit(some italian I am huh? Cant even eat olives LOL)
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