T-3 only vs. Armour?

  1. New Member
    raw1973's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    84
    Rep Power
    141
    Level
    8
    Lv. Percent
    80.81%

    T-3 only vs. Armour?


    Dx's Hashi's went to "thyroid expert" who did told me I need to be on Armour--1/4 grain, stay on it three weeks till I see him again to review labs and tests. So I ran salivary cortisol tests in meantime and started 1/4 grain. By the end of day I was having dizzy,confusion, increase in allergies. Took for two more days same symptoms plus headache.
    So on day 4 I took 10 mcg cytomel instead of Armour and by midday brain fog lifted and felt overall better. Took again yesterday and I felt great( fatigued when I woke up today)
    Point is, T3 is always blamed for adrenal stress when talking Armour, but I took 4 times the amount that was in the 1/4 grain, no problem. People don't seem to have adrenal problems with T-4 only drugs either. So it's something in Armour's combo that causes everyone to "discover" adrenal fatigue/insufficiency,huh?

    I'm thinking since my Ft3 is low and Ft4 is middle that maybe I have a conversion problem with Rt3 raised. Maybe if I take t-3 or SR-t3 only I can bring up Ft3, drive Ft4 down( and maybe any Rt3) then incorporate some Ft-4 with thyroxine or crossover to Armour at that point. Any comments?

  2. Registered User
    hardasnails1973's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,039
    Rep Power
    1163
    Level
    32
    Lv. Percent
    84.36%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by raw1973 View Post
    Dx's Hashi's went to "thyroid expert" who did told me I need to be on Armour--1/4 grain, stay on it three weeks till I see him again to review labs and tests. So I ran salivary cortisol tests in meantime and started 1/4 grain. By the end of day I was having dizzy,confusion, increase in allergies. Took for two more days same symptoms plus headache.
    So on day 4 I took 10 mcg cytomel instead of Armour and by midday brain fog lifted and felt overall better. Took again yesterday and I felt great( fatigued when I woke up today)
    Point is, T3 is always blamed for adrenal stress when talking Armour, but I took 4 times the amount that was in the 1/4 grain, no problem. People don't seem to have adrenal problems with T-4 only drugs either. So it's something in Armour's combo that causes everyone to "discover" adrenal fatigue/insufficiency,huh?

    I'm thinking since my Ft3 is low and Ft4 is middle that maybe I have a conversion problem with Rt3 raised. Maybe if I take t-3 or SR-t3 only I can bring up Ft3, drive Ft4 down( and maybe any Rt3) then incorporate some Ft-4 with thyroxine or crossover to Armour at that point. Any comments?
    conversion problems go back to the liver.
    Pathways by which rt3 and other hormones get metabolized from is sulfur oxidation and if this pathway is blocked then reverse t3, deactivated cortisol, and other hormones build up and in theory I beleive cause cellular resistance to the active hormones. Which may explain normal readings of cortisol on serum, but low urinary or salvia readings, as well as low free t-3 readings and elevated rt3.
  3. Advanced Member
    spinn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    633
    Rep Power
    433
    Level
    20
    Lv. Percent
    89.28%

    What is a normal dose of Armour after one ramps up?

    I have heard it is 3 to 5 grains. My dr currently has me on 3/4 grain which seems to be helping, but is so far only making me feel less bad.

    I want to feel good....not less bad.
    •   
       

  4. New Member
    raw1973's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    84
    Rep Power
    141
    Level
    8
    Lv. Percent
    80.81%

    Last couple of days I upped my dose of T3 to 20mcg to see how I would react, and I feel great. This is the same amount of T3 that would be in over 2 grains of armour. My sister was put on t4 replacement weeks ago, with no ill effects( not much change at all, but i know it's a slow process with t4).
    It seems to me that it's either the armour(being a "natural" replacement) or combo of T3/t4 that is so hard on the adrenals and not the T3 alone. I wonder if I would do well to raise T3 then later after driving t4 down, incorporate a T4 synthetic or armour "slowly" to replace t4. I will see doc in a 10 days and run it by him, although he is a huge Armour advocate and doubt he will accept a t3 only protocol. I'm still waiting for my saliva/cortisol tests to come back, which I will post.
    --Rob
  5. Senior Member
    pmgamer18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    1,532
    Rep Power
    1094
    Level
    29
    Lv. Percent
    6.41%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by raw1973 View Post
    Last couple of days I upped my dose of T3 to 20mcg to see how I would react, and I feel great. This is the same amount of T3 that would be in over 2 grains of armour. My sister was put on t4 replacement weeks ago, with no ill effects( not much change at all, but i know it's a slow process with t4).
    It seems to me that it's either the armour(being a "natural" replacement) or combo of T3/t4 that is so hard on the adrenals and not the T3 alone. I wonder if I would do well to raise T3 then later after driving t4 down, incorporate a T4 synthetic or armour "slowly" to replace t4. I will see doc in a 10 days and run it by him, although he is a huge Armour advocate and doubt he will accept a t3 only protocol. I'm still waiting for my saliva/cortisol tests to come back, which I will post.
    --Rob
    The reason you felt bad on armour was you Adrenals need support your cortisl levels are low. I did not add Armour until I got my Adrenals supported and I could tell how they were doing by taking my temps 3 hrs. after I was up and then every 3 hrs. 3 x's a day. I then added them up and div. by 3 this was my avg. I then put this info on a chart I found that if my avg. was up and down from day to day my Adrenals were not supported. I at the time was on Isocort 8 pills a day = 20mgs of cortisol. When my temps leveled off I started on 45mgs of Armour. When I did this in a week my temps went up from 96.7 to 97.2 then in 2 weeks they went back donw and I felt hypo again so I added 15mgs more. And my temps went up I did this until I got to 2.5 grains then my temps stayed up at about 98 in 4 weeks they started to come down again so this is when I added 15mgs. I am now holding at 3 grains 1 3 x's a day. And my temps are 98.6.

    Then I went to this site and printed out a chart for tracking your body's temps. I would take it under my arm before getting out of bed for 10 min.'s if it is under 97.8 you have a thyroid problem my temps that I did were for 4 morning and then I did an avg. it was 95.8.
    Temperature Patterns of low adrenal and thyroid function
    Using this to take my temps it is also sold at Wall-Greens and Wal-mart.
    Thermometer
    Phil
  6. New Member
    raw1973's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    84
    Rep Power
    141
    Level
    8
    Lv. Percent
    80.81%

    Will one week T3 shut down thyroid production?


    as I posted above after not responding well to the armour, I tried T3 for 6 days 10/10/20/20/20/20 feeling fine but don't want to self-treat continually and see doc again next week.Initially I wanted to stay on till I saw doc, then explain and request a synthetic T-4 to add to the T-3, but now I'm thinking maybe I should stop altogether till I see him.
    Would thyroid be shut down by this short dosing schedule?
    Should I take 10mcg for a couple days more or is stopping now after this short period fine?
  7. Senior Member
    pmgamer18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    1,532
    Rep Power
    1094
    Level
    29
    Lv. Percent
    6.41%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Oh, Lord no. Off the cuff, I'd guess it's about one grain.
    Wow on 1 grain of armour my tests did nothing I am on 1 grain 3 x's a day. It took me a long time to get up to this dose but now I am feeling much better.
    Phil
  8. Registered User
    hardasnails1973's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,039
    Rep Power
    1163
    Level
    32
    Lv. Percent
    84.36%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    you need to check rt3 to see if they are elevated if they are then you need to find the source of the stress and to deal with it whether it be a hidden infection,mental, enviormental, chemical, liver kidney conversion problems, diabtes.
  9. Professional Member
    JanSz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,631
    Rep Power
    2417
    Level
    45
    Lv. Percent
    61.67%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by raw1973 View Post
    as I posted above after not responding well to the armour, I tried T3 for 6 days 10/10/20/20/20/20 feeling fine but don't want to self-treat continually and see doc again next week.Initially I wanted to stay on till I saw doc, then explain and request a synthetic T-4 to add to the T-3, but now I'm thinking maybe I should stop altogether till I see him.
    Would thyroid be shut down by this short dosing schedule?
    Should I take 10mcg for a couple days more or is stopping now after this short period fine?
    Take you temperature and pulse, every few hours if you want.
    Make sure your temperature is less than 37.00C= 98.60F
    and resting pulse less than 100, better less than 80.
    After you relatively quickly (4 weeks) reach 3grains, slow down adding probably 1/4 grain possibly 1/2 weekly.
    Stop at 4 grains, definitely do the blood test.
    I take 5mg Cortef morning and afternoon, needed or not.
    Today I started at 3 grains, after 27 days.
    Actually I do not feel anything different, puls atays as it was, about 66.
    Temperature is somewhat higher, I am never below 36.00C=96.80F
    -------------------------------
    About pulse, resting pulse 66, (I am 66yo)
    what that tells about my shape,
    probably not as good as it should be?????
    What to do??
  10. Senior Member
    pmgamer18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    1,532
    Rep Power
    1094
    Level
    29
    Lv. Percent
    6.41%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    One grain of Armour is equal to 100mcg Synthroid.

    We have to recognize that the gents come here sometimes because their bodies did not read the medical books, as they say.
    You have guys here on 5 grains of Armour we should so a poll on how much one is on.
    Phil
  11. Advanced Member
    spinn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    633
    Rep Power
    433
    Level
    20
    Lv. Percent
    89.28%

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    One grain of Armour is equal to 100mcg Synthroid.

    We have to recognize that the gents come here sometimes because their bodies did not read the medical books, as they say.
    When I go to another very good site....I see:

    "# ARMOUR is made by Forest Pharmaceuticals. It is made in the following strengths: 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, and 3 grain tablets. One grain contains 38 mcg. of T4 and 9 mcg. of T3, plus unmeasured amounts of T2, T1 and calcitonin."

    Does that mean 1 grain of armour is equal to 38 mcgs of synthroid since synthroid is t4?

    Regardless......most on that site claim to be taking 3-5 grains of armour before seeing results. Now I am confused.
  12. Advanced Member
    spinn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    633
    Rep Power
    433
    Level
    20
    Lv. Percent
    89.28%

    Also....if you are taking what some may consider a high does....but see no negative side effects.....what is the downside as long as you monitor blood levels?

    I am talking about say 4 grains......nothing crazy.
  13. Advanced Member
    spinn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    633
    Rep Power
    433
    Level
    20
    Lv. Percent
    89.28%

    I am overposting....sorry...but....

    Stop The Thyroid Madness Things We Have Learned

    "Generally, we and certain informed doctors have found that a safe dose to start on is around one grain (or less for those with severely challenged adrenals). We then hold that for a week or two at the most to allow our bodies to adjust to the direct T3, then start raising about 1/2 grain every few weeks. If we fail to raise within a few weeks, our hypo starts to return with a vengeance.

    When we get ‘close or up to’ 3 grains, we have found it wise to hold our doses at least 4-6 weeks to allow the T4 in Armour to fully build and show it’s T4-to-T3 conversion results. It appears that most of us end up needing 3-5 grains at the minimum when we find our optimal dose, mentioned below. "
  14. New Member
    raw1973's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    84
    Rep Power
    141
    Level
    8
    Lv. Percent
    80.81%

    Well, I just recieved my cortisol tests back, which might explain my difficulty in tolerating Armour. I also have Hashi's with goiter, antibodies, Here they are:

    Time result Ref Values

    7-8am ( 8 ) (13-24 nM) Depressed

    11-12pm ( 2 ) ( 5-10 nM) Depressed

    4-5pm ( 2 ) ( 3-8 nM ) Depressed

    11-midnight ( 7 ) ( 1-4 nM ) Elevated

    Cortisol Burden: 19 23-42

    DHEA (3) (3-10 ng/nl ) Borderline

    The tests also showed my free testosterone low and estradiol and progesterone high. Are these ( test. and E2)
    valid on a saliva test? I've heard in the past that the only saliva tests of worth are the cortisol. I'm going to get blood tests on these also.
    Do these cortisol results warrant HC support?,
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Deca+Test vs Test only for HRT
    By Whacked in forum Male Anti-Aging Medicine
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-20-2014, 04:29 PM
  2. Oral only cycles vs prohormones
    By gkulek in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 04-08-2013, 05:05 PM
  3. Real Spawn PH vs. Test only cycle?
    By dh1210 in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-04-2012, 06:25 AM
  4. T3 only vs T3 T4 combo
    By rombusempire in forum Weight Loss
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-01-2010, 12:33 AM
  5. THE BATTLE! 1AD vs. One+
    By MassMachine in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-30-2002, 05:13 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in