Does Arimidex decrease Total E, or E2, or both?

[BigAk]

I'm just trying to figure out what Arimidex does for various types of estrogens in the body, and if high/normal level of "Total Estrogen" has any negative impact on HPTA recovery. And, if so, would arimidex be helpful in this context??

 

[ItsHectic]

It decreases E2 I dont think it has much effect on E1, not sure about E3.

 

[BigAk]

It decreases E2 I dont think it has much effect on E1, not sure about E3.

How about Total Estrogen??.. Confused here...

 

[ItsHectic]

Not sure but it doesnt make much diffrence I know that, Total estrogens isnt too important anyways.

 

[BigAk]

Not sure but it doesnt make much diffrence I know that, Total estrogens isnt too important anyways.

Why isn't Total Estrogen important in the equation of the HPTA?... My gut feeling is that it does play a big role... still confused...

 

[ItsHectic]

Ah I wasnt thinking about HPTA, sorry have slept in a while. Not sure if it has an effect on HPTA or not.

 

[Jawohl]

Why isn't Total Estrogen important in the equation of the HPTA?... My gut feeling is that it does play a big role... still confused...

BigAk, that's precisely the question i've been trying to search an answer for. Im glad Im not the only one that's wondering what role Estrone (or Total Estrogens for that matter) has in the negative feedback loop of the HPTA, if any. I did find some interesting posts elsewhere from a doc who treats men with hormonal issues such as hypogonadism, and found a high correlation with patients' complaints of estrogen-like symptoms with elevated Total Estrogens, despite maintaining E2 in mid range. I think the problem he was having was how to lower Total Estrogens (say with an aromatase inhibitor) without lowering E2 too low, since E2 in these men were already at the desired range. Do a search on the web for Dr.Swale. Not sure if he's given up on this or not, since some of the posts are dated at least 2 years old.

Check out the thread titled "Can elevated Estrone suppress the HP?" that i did recently. In there i copy and pasted a few posts that talk about this very thing.

Do you have secondary hypogonadism too? If so, are your Total Estrogens elevated as well?


Jawohl

 

[hardasnails1973]

Simpliest answer to this problem is most likely your liver detoxification pathways are imbalanced meaning that methylation is the primary source of estrogen detoxification followed by glucoridation. This is for all estrogens not just estrodial. So a good start would be 500 mgs of calcium d glurate 2 times a day and eat more broccoli and brussel sprout, cauliflour to aid in toxifiction. You may want to look into methylcobalin, folinin acid, NAC, TMGS, p5p. All of this must be takin in balance unless other wise clnically noted by testing because it can cause major problems. If you are hypothyroid this can cause estrogens to build up and estrogens can depress thyroid and liver function to detoxify the estrogens. Excess estrogen can cause hypomethylation if in excess as well as being in deficiency. We are bombared by enviormental toxins every day and they can over whelm our bodies with xenostreogen which can suppress our HPA. I believe a total estrogen would be a good indicator of this possible. Basically ramp up your thyroid and balance liver pathways will reduce total estrogens and possible balance out the HPA axis. might want to look into organic acids test (covered by insurance from great plains) to access your enviromental exposures. This area is highly over looked and may aid some people in returning to normal homrone statues.
How does estrogen cause cancer it interfers with the homocysteine pathway (suppresses methione synthase pathway) and causes gene mutations due to hypomethylation and hyper methylation. I have researched this for nearly 2 years and finally starting to master it and people that could barely move are now starting to get there life back again once these pathways are balanced

 

[BigAk]

BigAk, that's precisely the question i've been trying to search an answer for. Im glad Im not the only one that's wondering what role Estrone (or Total Estrogens for that matter) has in the negative feedback loop of the HPTA, if any. I did find some interesting posts elsewhere from a doc who treats men with hormonal issues such as hypogonadism, and found a high correlation with patients' complaints of estrogen-like symptoms with elevated Total Estrogens, despite maintaining E2 in mid range. I think the problem he was having was how to lower Total Estrogens (say with an aromatase inhibitor) without lowering E2 too low, since E2 in these men were already at the desired range. Do a search on the web for Dr.Swale.

Yes... Jawohl.. Thank you for your post. I know Dr. Swale. He's also Dr. John on this board and very famous in his field. You prob. didn't know that as you're new to this board I think. But, Yes.. I have just found your thread inquiring about the same issue here. Hopefully Dr. John would come around and shed some light on this topic.

Do you have secondary hypogonadism too? If so, are your Total Estrogens elevated as well?

When I did suffer from hypogonadism 4 months ago, my total estrogen was 116 on a scale of (40 - 115)... So, yea.... my total E was elevated. My E2 then was very low though <15 on scale (0 - 53). Now that I have recovered my HPTA using PCT, my E2 is 7 (same scale) but I have no idea what my total Estrogen is as I didn't have it measured. What prompted my inquiry in this thread is that my Total Testosterone levels have not gone above 300 since my last bloodwork 8 weeks ago, and I'm wondering if there could be a connection to my total Estrogen being too high originally before PCT. However, my Free T is going up; so is my bioavailable T. Maybe my body is trying to stabilize my Total E but taking a long time?? not sure!!!

 

[BigAk]

Simpliest answer to this problem is most likely your liver detoxification pathways are imbalanced meaning that methylation is the primary source of estrogen detoxification followed by glucoridation. This is for all estrogens not just estrodial. So a good start would be 500 mgs of calcium d glurate 2 times a day and eat more broccoli and brussel sprout, cauliflour to aid in toxifiction. You may want to look into methylcobalin, folinin acid, NAC, TMGS, p5p. All of this must be takin in balance unless other wise clnically noted by testing because it can cause major problems. If you are hypothyroid this can cause estrogens to build up and estrogens can depress thyroid and liver function to detoxify the estrogens. Excess estrogen can cause hypomethylation if in excess as well as being in deficiency. We are bombared by enviormental toxins every day and they can over whelm our bodies with xenostreogen which can suppress our HPA. I believe a total estrogen would be a good indicator of this possible. Basically ramp up your thyroid and balance liver pathways will reduce total estrogens and possible balance out the HPA axis. might want to look into organic acids test (covered by insurance from great plains) to access your enviromental exposures. This area is highly over looked and may aid some people in returning to normal homrone statues.
How does estrogen cause cancer it interfers with the homocysteine pathway (suppresses methione synthase pathway) and causes gene mutations due to hypomethylation and hyper methylation. I have researched this for nearly 2 years and finally starting to master it and people that could barely move are now starting to get there life back again once these pathways are balanced

Wow... That's very impressively informative!!! It's interesting that you're mentioning the liver role in detoxifying the body form excessive Total Estrogen (news to me!!). It just happened that my ALT value in my very recent bloodwork has climbed up to 66 (0 - 55) which was very puzzling to me since it's always been in the normal range. Could it be that my body is trying hard to reduce my total E in an effort to reach normal equilibrium??

 

[hardasnails1973]

Wow... That's very impressively informative!!! It's interesting that you're mentioning the liver role in detoxifying the body form excessive Total Estrogen (news to me!!). It just happened that my ALT value in my very recent bloodwork has climbed up to 66 (0 - 55) which was very puzzling to me since it's always been in the normal range. Could it be that my body is trying hard to reduce my total E in an effort to reach normal equilibrium??

Dr may want to check your homocysteine levels to see where the metabolic blockage is. Most of the time is would be due to the underactive CBS pathway which can be supported by 600 mgss NAC and 50 mgs P5P 2 times a day to aid in gluthione production, or one can use TMG as alternative pathway, but main pathway is the methionne synthase pathway (b-12/folate acid) Now here is the kicker people with liver disfunctions have a b-12 and folate serum off the chart dispite no extra supplementation reason being is because they can not convert into active forms methycobalin or folinic acid and when this happens you are opening your self up to cancer due to the malfunctioning of DNA from one celll to the next gives miss information. This is referred to as undermethylation which probably 50-60% of bodybuilders suffer from some degree or another (as do 30-40% of population). Give the fact that we play around with estrogen levels so much we are not knowing increasing our chances of cancer down the road. How may you ask. Most people cancer people are either over methylated or undermethylated research this and you will see
cancer and methylation. It all has to do with this simple fact
Estrogen deficiency suppresses methionne synthase production and well as too much estrogen. Estrogen is not bad as long as it is balanced and kept in check. if it gets out of hand then it can cause problems

works like this
samme goes in to homocyteine which is bad
homocysteine is broken down by 3 pathways
1) CBS - p5P, magnesium activate it
2) methionne synthase - methyl b-12, folinic acid activate
3) Betatine- TMG, choline activate it

now if one of these pathways is clogged other act as back up ..The bad parts comes when methionne synthase get clogged. Betaine pathway is over whlemed and in a matter of weeks one can be depleted of choline and now where does it get the choline from? Your outer membranne of your cells ..Thats right folks your cells commit suicide and the phospholipid bi layer is broken down from phosophodytl choline in to choline. Which is extrememly dangerous an very cancer forming. Now by balancing your the 3 pathways you prevent this plus also increase gluthione production which is our main antioxident for detoxifcation of estrogen. if this is low then it goes to glucurization pathway which acids as back up for detoxification of hormones hence the idea of using calcium d glucurate to lower over all estrogen levels. Pretty neat huh. Reason I know how cancer and estrogen is related is my mom had breast cancer and takes femura. I looked at her blood tests and her homocystein is dropping and joints are killing her and did not know why, but now i do. Estrogen being blocked is causing hypomethylation as well as decreasing the amount of samme in her body which is fuel to make glucosamine in the joints resulting in sever joint pain. Dr called it getting old i call it BS. I corrected this problem by adjusting her thyroid as well as giving her 400 mgs of samme 2 times a day with proper vitamin support to all pathways as precaution it would raise it to fast. REsult joint pain gone and increased energy levels. She is 71 years old and have more energy then most 21 years old. Another intersting fact is that estrogen defieincy causes fatty liver and given estrogen cures fatty liver ..cool huh

If govement want to decrease risk of cancer by 50% or more % all they need to do is add in to food not folic acid, but rather folinic acid and methy cobalin would take care alot of problems.
Here reason why in order to end up with folinic acid you need copper, zinc, magesium, b2., b5, vitamin C. Given the population is already 90% mineral defieinct of magnesium you can see where this would correct the problem.

 

[JanSz]

Simpliest answer to this problem is most likely your liver detoxification pathways are imbalanced meaning that methylation is the primary source of estrogen detoxification followed by glucoridation. This is for all estrogens not just estrodial. So a good start would be 500 mgs of calcium d glurate 2 times a day and eat more broccoli and brussel sprout, cauliflour to aid in toxifiction. You may want to look into methylcobalin, folinin acid, NAC, TMGS, p5p. All of this must be takin in balance unless other wise clnically noted by testing because it can cause major problems. If you are hypothyroid this can cause estrogens to build up and estrogens can depress thyroid and liver function to detoxify the estrogens. Excess estrogen can cause hypomethylation if in excess as well as being in deficiency. We are bombared by enviormental toxins every day and they can over whelm our bodies with xenostreogen which can suppress our HPA. I believe a total estrogen would be a good indicator of this possible. Basically ramp up your thyroid and balance liver pathways will reduce total estrogens and possible balance out the HPA axis. might want to look into organic acids test (covered by insurance from great plains) to access your enviromental exposures. This area is highly over looked and may aid some people in returning to normal homrone statues.
How does estrogen cause cancer it interfers with the homocysteine pathway (suppresses methione synthase pathway) and causes gene mutations due to hypomethylation and hyper methylation. I have researched this for nearly 2 years and finally starting to master it and people that could barely move are now starting to get there life back again once these pathways are balanced

I need to take time and study your posts some more, but if I want to get some help in the mean time;
I would like to say that my high Total estogens may be helped by Armour Thyroid, right?
Total Estrogens------------------------------ ---260 pg/mL (40-115) LE’s Optimal Range: 40–77 pg/mL
estrone, serum------------------------------- ----78 pg/mL (12-72)
Estradiol, sensitive--------------------------- ----27 pg/mL (3-70) LE’s Optimal Range: 10–30 pg/mL
(TSH)-------------------------- --1.89 uIU/mL (0.350-5.5)
Free triiodothyroxine (T3)----------------- --2.9 pg/mL (2.3-4.2)
Total T3------------------------------------------ ---104 ng/dL (85-205)
Free T4(direct)-------------------------------- --1.37 ng/dL (0.61-1.76)

My Ft3 is in lower half of a range, I should raise it at least above 3.4 or better yet above 3.7, 3.9 would be ideal;right?
3.825 <--FT3 start of upper 25%
3.667 <--FT3 start of upper 33%
3.350 <--FT3 start of upper 50%

 

[BigAk]

Working out, taking a couple Tylenol, etc will elevate ALT that much.

That's what I thought originally actually. During this blood draw, I happened to have just had a very painful lower back injury which took place squatting in the gym. This injury presisted for a while now, but it's getting much better lately. You're right Dr. John; I think the tissue breakdown and rebuilding may have increased my ALT values. Also, I had started taking 1 gram of vitamin C daily.

Thank you.

 

[BigAk]

BTW, the Total Estrogen, for adult males, is not a valid assay.

Dr. John; you have explained to me a while back why the total E was not a valid assay for adult males, but I didn't really grasp it fully. Could you please explain this again? I know that many have wondered why... Thank you.

 

[hardasnails1973]

In a previous post it was noted that 300 mgs DIM and 500 mgs TMG could help reduce the bad estrogen if one is concerned about carcinagenic effects.

 

[Jawohl]

If it is not valid, it is of no use. Simple as that. Worthless.

I think what BigAk is probably asking is what makes it an invalid assay for males.

Some questions that come to mind are "What were Labcorp,Quest and other Labs thinking when they came up with the reference range for Total Estrogens in males?"

And "If the tendency is for laboraties to go ultra-conservative when it comes to reference ranges, so as to avoid having too much of the population in an "abnormal" state therefore labeling a huge chunk of hypogonadics, hypothyroidics, and those with adrenal fatigue as "normal", why would they reverse that trend by creating a reference range that makes the majority of men show up with elevated Total Estrogens?"

And also.. "If the Total Estrogen assay is completely worthless in males, why is it of any use to females? What makes it credible there?"

The list of questions grows, but in deference to you and your busy schedule, I won't ask any of them.


Jawohl

 

[hardasnails1973]

Why don't they just come up with new healther ranges to prevent and treat problems based upon age groups rather then population as a whole. Opps "your in range" we can not treat your thyroid heres paxil ..give me a break

 

[Kristofer68SS]

subscribing.

 

[JanSz]

I think what BigAk is probably asking is what makes it an invalid assay for males.

Some questions that come to mind are "What were Labcorp,Quest and other Labs thinking when they came up with the reference range for Total Estrogens in males?"

And "If the tendency is for laboraties to go ultra-conservative when it comes to reference ranges, so as to avoid having too much of the population in an "abnormal" state therefore labeling a huge chunk of hypogonadics, hypothyroidics, and those with adrenal fatigue as "normal", why would they reverse that trend by creating a reference range that makes the majority of men show up with elevated Total Estrogens?"

And also.. "If the Total Estrogen assay is completely worthless in males, why is it of any use to females? What makes it credible there?"

The list of questions grows, but in deference to you and your busy schedule, I won't ask any of them.


Jawohl

So we have at least two popular blood tests that are worthless;
Total Estrogens
TSH

Please add to the list.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Possible cortisol am serum can be added thats one for you prgmmer

 

[BigAk]

Is E2 at 7 -- (3 - 70) too low to cause any adverse health effects? My lipid profile seems pretty good... even at this level.

 

[pmgamer18]

Is E2 at 7 -- (3 - 70) too low to cause any adverse health effects? My lipid profile seems pretty good... even at this level.

To low for me I do much better at 20 pg/ml are you taking anything to keep E2 down or anything that can lower it.
Phil

 

[BigAk]

To low for me I do much better at 20 pg/ml are you taking anything to keep E2 down or anything that can lower it.
Phil

No Phil... I'm taking nothing at all. Actually I feel pretty good on this value. My morning wood is good and my erection is excellent since my SHBG have gone from 48 to 28 yeilding more bioavailable Test. and free Test.

 

[BigAk]

Phil, have you had your SHBG measured at the same time?

We must always value E in light of SHBG level, as we do T.

We learn lots from you Dr. John. I look forward to our upcoming follow-up consult next week; once I schedule it with Kim this Monday. I have quite a few questions. Thank you..

 

[pmgamer18]

Phil, have you had your SHBG measured at the same time?

We must always value E in light of SHBG level, as we do T.

Not every test my Dr. does a test every 6 weeks the last time we did SHBG it was the first of the yr. It was 22 range 7 - 50 nmol/l. And E2 was 15 pm/ml at that time. We should be checking every test you think. In the past we had to do high doses of T and HCG to keep my levels up. Now that we are treating my low Cortisol levels and Thyroid I am not useing up the meds as fast so we started cutting down on the dose. My T shot went from down from 65mgs to 50mgs every 3 days and my HCG we just dropped down from 400 IUs the 2 days each in between my T shot to 250 IU's. In 6 weeks we will test again and if all is good and it feels like it is we will cut the HCG to 250 IU's the day before my next T shot. I am finding so far my levels are still the same as we needed to keep them over the yrs. but now we can do this on less.
Phil

 

[ItsHectic]

yiy for me. So basicly the younger you are the more potent E2?

 

[1cc]

An E2 of 20 is VERY high if SHBG is low.

Would you please discuss this relationship of E2 to SHBG Dr. John, and why it is so?

 

[pmgamer18]

Hormone assays should never be run without assessing binding globulins. An E2 of 20 is VERY high if SHBG is low.

Thanks I will be sure to have this on my Hormon assays from now on. At the time this test was done I was on 1mg of Arimidex a day and doing my shots once a week. All I know is this is dam hard to conrtol this E2. It may well be doing .5mgs. of Arimidex every other day is not enough.
Phil

 

[BigAk]

Sorry I missed you the other day. Kim ambushed me when I got back from A4M Vegas with a full schedule, and what I really needed was a whole day to just sleep.

No problem Dr. John. I understand; you're a very busy guy. Again; I appreciate all your help.

 

[yeoc]

Hormone assays should never be run without assessing binding globulins. An E2 of 20 is VERY high if SHBG is low.

Dr John this could be absolutely crucial to me and why I have failed on TRT for two years.


My SHBG is low being 11 to 12 nmol/l in a range of 12-78.

I have never felt well irrespective of the method of TRT, no matter what the level of replacement and no matter how good testosterone has appeared.

My estradiol has been between in the last few months has been between 118pmol/l and 148pmol/l in a range upto 200.

I developed gynecomastia which has been removed, but might be coming back. I have severe symptoms of T deficiency.

Even when treated with arimidex to lower my estardiol to 70pmol/l I have still felt ill.

I have worried as to whether I should take arimidex because i have osteoporosis.....but!!!

Well if what your saying is the case could it be that my estradiol level is greatly amplified bythe very low SHBG level and that this is the problem????

I can't begin to explain how important this could be to me...

 

[ItsHectic]

Hormone assays should never be run without assessing binding globulins. An E2 of 20 is VERY high if SHBG is low.

Do you mean low as in below range or low normal?
I think most people have SHBG in the low 20s.
So for SHBG to be 20 and E2 to be 20 that would be ideal wouldnt it? or should E2 maybe be 15 in that case?

 

[yeoc]

Dr John could you take a look at my post and tell me what you think?

Also if I have an SHBG of 11 or 12nmol/l right at the bottom of the range what would be a remotely reasonable E2 and testosterone level likely to be.

So far no combination has worked and I always end up with low libido, ed and really bad symtpoms of T deficiency.

 

[Chip Douglas]

Hormone assays should never be run without assessing binding globulins. An E2 of 20 is VERY high if SHBG is low.

Interesting--here's my SHBG from November is last year :

SHBG : 17 ( 10 - 73 )

And my E2 from this year (too bad I didn't have both tested at once this year)

Estradiol-17B : 93 men : 42-151

 

[pmgamer18]

Back some yrs. ago when I did not know about high E2 my Total T #'s were good but my Free T was low normal all the time. When I tested my E2 and got it down my Free T went way up so this means my SHBG went down. Now I don't know if lower normal levels of SHBG are bad or good sounds like a double edge sword. What happened when I got my E2 down taking Arimidex is it drove down my SHBG. So I guess my next question is what are good levels for SHBG.
Phil

 

[roro]

Dr John this could be absolutely crucial to me and why I have failed on TRT for two years.


My SHBG is low being 11 to 12 nmol/l in a range of 12-78.

I have never felt well irrespective of the method of TRT, no matter what the level of replacement and no matter how good testosterone has appeared.

My estradiol has been between in the last few months has been between 118pmol/l and 148pmol/l in a range upto 200.

I developed gynecomastia which has been removed, but might be coming back. I have severe symptoms of T deficiency.

Even when treated with arimidex to lower my estardiol to 70pmol/l I have still felt ill.

I have worried as to whether I should take arimidex because i have osteoporosis.....but!!!

Well if what your saying is the case could it be that my estradiol level is greatly amplified bythe very low SHBG level and that this is the problem????

I can't begin to explain how important this could be to me...

SHBG 13.8 nmol/L (13.0-71.0) 31/07/06
Oestradiol 128 pmol/L (0-206) 31/07/06 (35 in US units)
+everything else healthy on Dr John's full initial labwork recommendation from "TRT a recipe for success"

I can explain how important this could be to me.....

From the age of 15 (I'm now 33) I've had zero libido and serious ED. The effect on my life has been huge. Only one (failed) relationship, serious lack of confidence, family (immediate and extended) thinking I'm gay. Not being able to do anything about a girls advances, blushing etc etc etc...

Sorry if this is a little too much (especially for a first post) but this info just might change my life forever.

yeoc, I feel your pain.

 

[JanSz]

If SHBG is low, then more of the E is bioavailable.

On the other hand, when SHBG is high, even though much less E is Bioavailable, since SHBG preferentially binds androgens over estrogens, bioavailable T/E goes down.

NEVER assess hormones without considering their Free/Bioavailable concentrations.

So we have at least three (or mre) dimensional relationship:

SHGB
Estradiol
Testosterone

Would you please elaborate, possibly present a table with desirable values, specially how they change when,
hard to adjust SHGB is a certail levels.
=====================
A>B>C
when SHGB is between A and B
then desired
E2 should be between AX and BY
and
T should be between AXa and BYb

but

when SHGB is between B and C
then desired
E2 should be between BX and CY
and
T should be between BXa and CYb

 

[BigAk]

So we have at least three (or mre) dimensional relationship:

SHGB
Estradiol
Testosterone

Would you please elaborate, possibly present a table with desirable values, specially how they change when,
hard to adjust SHGB is a certail levels.
=====================
A>B>C
when SHGB is between A and B
then desired
E2 should be between AX and BY
and
T should be between AXa and BYb

but

when SHGB is between B and C
then desired
E2 should be between BX and CY
and
T should be between BXa and CYb

You guys are asking alot of Dr. John. He's a very busy man; and some of your questions can't have simple answers. Nothing is set in stone when it comes to numbers you know. Therefore, I would imagine that it's hard to conclude final certain values for the question above without doing a very involved study that will record how people feel in relation to their numbers. It's easy to understand as Dr. John puts it; that lowering SHGB means that more testosterone and E2 is bioavailable and free. I don't know... but I would think it's hard to put final numbers for the above question.

To be fair to Dr. John and his expertise, it would be more suitable to consult him privately as everyone is different and will require customized treatment.... Just my 2 cents....

 

[JanSz]

You guys are asking alot of Dr. John. He's a very busy man; and some of your questions can't have simple answers. Nothing is set in stone when it comes to numbers you know. Therefore, I would imagine that it's hard to conclude final certain values for the question above without doing a very involved study that will record how people feel in relation to their numbers. It's easy to understand as Dr. John puts it; that lowering SHGB means that more testosterone and E2 is bioavailable and free. I don't know... but I would think it's hard to put final numbers for the above question.

To be fair to Dr. John and his expertise, it would be more suitable to consult him privately as everyone is different and will require customized treatment.... Just my 2 cents....

Sorry, this is discusion board, I just learned that this three way or more relationship is strong and important.
I hope my question is not of the type that may be forbidden on ths board.
Dr. John is free to answer or ignore my question.
One of his answers, indeed, may be that hi knows the real answer but he makes a living out of that knownledge.

 

[JanSz]

So we have at least three (or mre) dimensional relationship:

SHGB
Estradiol
Testosterone

Would you please elaborate, possibly present a table with desirable values, specially how they change when,
hard to adjust SHGB is a certail levels.
=====================
A>B>C
when SHGB is between A and B
then desired
E2 should be between AX and BY
and
T should be between AXa and BYb

but

when SHGB is between B and C
then desired
E2 should be between BX and CY
and
T should be between BXa and CYb

==========================
SHBG is itself determined by multiple hormones including:
Hormones that increase SHBG: estrogens, thyroid, progesterone
Hormones that reduce SHBG: testosterone, DHEA, insulin, growth hormone, other androgens
''''http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/503323-post6.html''''
.
but to do any adjustments one needs to know desirable ranges
.
add on please

 

[DSA1]

The problem with estrogen is the 16-OHE and 4-OHE metabolites are mutagenic, genotoxic, and procarcinogenic.

Favoring the CYP1A1 pathway, towards good 2-OHE and against the CYP3A4 (which makes 16-OHE) decreases the risk of cancer. We can do this with 300mg of DIM QD. But it also increases CYP1B1 enzyme, bringing more nasty (and I do mean nasty!) 4-OHE. Therefore never take DIM without also adding in TMG. The methyl groups it provides washes the 4-OHE downstream via support of COMT enzyme to make 4-methoxyestrone. Generally 500mg BID TMG will do the job.

Dr John - Are you recommending DIM or I3C these days?

 

[hardasnails1973]

I am currently recommending 300mg DIM QD.



I-3-C can cause GI motility issues.

Why not split the dosages up. 150 mgs mroning and 150 mgs at dinner time? Could this be due to the circadinen flow of elevated hormones in the morning? Duh I think I answered my own question LOL

 

[yeoc]

I am currently recommending 300mg DIM QD.

I-3-C can cause GI motility issues.

I was using DIM with Indolplex from PhytoPharmica and only taking 50mg a day.

Would you recommend upping that dose to the one you have spoken of, or is there a difference between the DIM you are recommending at that dose and I one I use?

Cheers

 

[pmgamer18]

I was using DIM with Indolplex from PhytoPharmica and only taking 50mg a day.

Would you recommend upping that dose to the one you have spoken of, or is there a difference between the DIM you are recommending at that dose and I one I use?

Cheers

So you cut the tablet in half = 60mgs best to do a blood test to see where your at. I did good a long time at this does.
Phil

 

[pmgamer18]

The Indolplex version is supposed to be much "stronger" (bioavailable) than straight DIM, isn't it? I do not know what a comparable dose would be.

A start dose is 120 mgs or one tablet at dinner time. If men take more then one tablet they can do down so fast they miss feeling better. A lot of guys that do indolplex/DIM go good on one half a tablet. So after starting on it do a test in 4 weeks and if to low cut the does. I have see a lot of DIM and tried them none worked to bring my levels of E2 down like this brand did.
PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM

As I am getting my Cortisol levels up, I just got my ACTH test back and it's dam low 5 range 7 - 50 pg/ml. So my Dr. gave me Cortef the Isocort was not doing the job. I feel once I get my Thyriod in balance I will not be eating up my TRT so fast and will be down to a lower dose and will stop using arimidex and go back on Indolplex/DIM.
Phil

 

[hardasnails1973]

A start dose is 120 mgs or one tablet at dinner time. If men take more then one tablet they can do down so fast they miss feeling better. A lot of guys that do indolplex/DIM go good on one half a tablet. So after starting on it do a test in 4 weeks and if to low cut the does. I have see a lot of DIM and tried them none worked to bring my levels of E2 down like this brand did.
PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM

As I am getting my Cortisol levels up, I just got my ACTH test back and it's dam low 5 range 7 - 50 pg/ml. So my Dr. gave me Cortef the Isocort was not doing the job. I feel once I get my Thyriod in balance I will not be eating up my TRT so fast and will be down to a lower dose and will stop using arimidex and go back on Indolplex/DIM.
Phil

Yes phil agree the estrogen thyroid connection is a vicous cycle in order be compeltely resolved thyroid aids in estrogen detoxifcation and then estrogn cloggs up thyroid. Have to deal with both to get them resolved, but you will

 

[hardasnails1973]

Yes. We have to appreciate the thyroid as the "gas pedal" for the entire body. When it slows, so does everything else--including breakdown/detoxification processes.

Yes but trying to tell a traditional medical dr that they would look at you with 2 eyes for being a male. But when it comes to a females it said specifically on birthcontrol that thryoid medication may need to be adjusted. I think that should tell you something how bad estrogen can be. Nice report i found that mothers that are hypothyroid tend to have childern that have emotional and CNS dysfunction, learning problems. Kind of scarey to wonder how many pregnant women that are misdiagnosed as well as men with subclinical hypothyroidism.

 

[yeoc]

I am currently recommending 300mg DIM QD.

I-3-C can cause GI motility issues.

Dr John I have a DIM related question and I wondered if you could help clear it up?

Although DIM helps the metobolisation of estrogen, I have also heard that it also lowers DHT. Obviously I wouldn't want DHT to be lowered too much.

Is this a potential issue with DIM or are my concerns unwarrented?

Thanks

 

[yeoc]

Do you have a reference for that handy please?

In all honesty I don't it is just something that I have heard widely quoted by a whole host of people, from pharmocologists to hypogonadal patients. It has been stated so often that I assumed perhaps incorrectly that it was true.

I almost always check the vallidity of such things, but on this occasion I must admit I haven't.

Is this not the case, is this something that DIM does not do?

 

[pmgamer18]

It's in this from this link. I don't think it states it lowers DHT.
Life Extension What's Hot Archive - May 2003
Phil


May 19, 2003
Indole-3-carbinol byproduct acts as antiandrogen to halt prostate cancer cell growth

In a study funded in part by the National Institutes of Health, to be published in the June 6 2003 issue of the Journal of Biological Chemistry, University of California, Berkeley researchers have found that a digestive product of indole-3-carbinol, which occurs naturally in broccoli and other cruciferous vegetables, halts the growth of prostate cancer cells in vitro. The compound, 3,3’-diindolymethane (DIM), inhibits androgenic hormones that fuel prostate cancer growth. Although androgen is important for the normal development of the prostate, it is believed to be involved in the early stages of prostate cancer.

The researchers administered DIM to androgen dependent and androgen independent prostate cancer cells and found that androgen-dependent cells experienced a 70 percent reduction in growth compared to those that did not receive the compound. Androgen-independent prostate cancer cells were not affected by DIM. The scientists went on to discover that DIM inhibited dihydrotestosterone, the primary androgenic hormone that is believed to be the culprit in prostate cancer. Dihydrotesterone stimulates prostate specific antigen, or PSA, which is elevated in prostate cancer. When DIM was administered to the androgen-dependent prostate cancer cells, PSA levels dropped.

A study of the molecular structure of DIM showed that it is similar to the androgen-blocking drug Casodex. Lead author Hien Le, PhD, explained, “DIM works by binding to the same receptor that DHT uses, so it's essentially blocking the androgen from triggering the growth of the cancer cells."

Principle researcher and professor nutritional sciences and toxicology at UC Berkeley's College of Natural Resources, Leonard Bjeldanes, summarized, "As far as we know, this is the first plant-derived chemical discovered that acts as an antiandrogen. This is of considerable interest in the development of therapeutics and preventive agents for prostate cancer."

—D Dye

 

[DSA1]

It's in this from this link. I don't think it states it lowers DHT.

<snip>
A study of the molecular structure of DIM showed that it is similar to the androgen-blocking drug Casodex. Lead author Hien Le, PhD, explained, “DIM works by binding to the same receptor that DHT uses, so it's essentially blocking the androgen from triggering the growth of the cancer cells."

Isn't binding to the same receptor as DHT, and thereby keeping the DHT from doing it's thing (which is "all things male," to quote Dr John) the same net-effect as lowering the DHT itself?

If this is accurate, sounds like DIM may not be a good thing, despite it's estrogen impacts, for men...?