Dr. John: your Pro-Op on T and HCG SC QOD?

wildfox

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Dear Dr. John,

I wanted to ask you about the following in general as an HRT regimen.

On another board (not "the old board") there is an HRT thread, and another man under his doctor's care is taking a total of 98 mg Test. Cyp per week. He was originally directed to take it as 14mg SC QD and 125iu hCG SC QD. They determined that actually 28 mg T. Cyp SC QOD with 250iu hCG SC QOD was giving him a better response than either just 100mg per week or 14mg per day. Something about a threshold regarding the T, and the hCG based on the study which I have a link to below.

I was wondering what your opinion is regarding such frequent SC administration.

Here is a link to a study regarding QOD hCG administration. Perhaps you are familiar with it?
dspace dot hsl dot washington dot edu/dspace/bitstream/2012/52/1/JCEM_2005_Low_Dose_Human.pdf

Thanks for your care, and thanks in advance for your response.

WF
 

pmgamer18

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Dear Dr. John,

I wanted to ask you about the following in general as an HRT regimen.

On another board (not "the old board") there is an HRT thread, and another man under his doctor's care is taking a total of 98 mg Test. Cyp per week. He was originally directed to take it as 14mg SC QD and 125iu hCG SC QD. They determined that actually 28 mg T. Cyp SC QOD with 250iu hCG SC QOD was giving him a better response than either just 100mg per week or 14mg per day. Something about a threshold regarding the T, and the hCG based on the study which I have a link to below.

I was wondering what your opinion is regarding such frequent SC administration.

Here is a link to a study regarding QOD hCG administration. Perhaps you are familiar with it?
dspace dot hsl dot washington dot edu/dspace/bitstream/2012/52/1/JCEM_2005_Low_Dose_Human.pdf

Thanks for your care, and thanks in advance for your response.

WF
WF the link does not work can you put one in that does. I would like to read this. I do my T shots every 3 days.
Phil
 

wildfox

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Phil, that does not relate to my question. My question for Dr. John is about dividing a weekly dose of T. Cyp into a daily or every-other-daily dose, along with hcg on the same day. I am not asking about the amount of hCG per dose.

Thanks. If Dr. John feels this is to specific, I will email him about my question, but I was hoping he's share is general professional opinion about my friend's regimen here.

WF
 

smitty4

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They determined that actually 28 mg T. Cyp SC QOD with 250iu hCG SC QOD was giving him a better response than either just 100mg per week or 14mg per day. Something about a threshold regarding the T, and the hCG based on the study which I have a link to below.
In this protocol, would they be doing the cyp and hCG on alternate days or would they be on the same day?
 

smitty4

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I was just curious about the protocol. I could be totally wrong, but I would think SC oil based injections would leave a little lump that would not dissipate very quickly.

OK...I have to confess...I cannot think of what PK's would be an abbreviation for.
 

smitty4

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Thanks...I have to confess that I probably would not have come up that one very quickly.
 

pmgamer18

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From what someone posted some time ago Dr. Shippen is doing T shot subQ evey 3 days doing half the dose in one side of his belly and the other half in the other side every 3 days. Yes this is a lot of holes. I got my Dr. to let me try this and was told I could use a small needle but I have to shoot into my thigh IM. So I do 40mgs of Depo T every 3 days and 400 IU's of HCG the 2 days in between. My levels are good 900 range 262 to 1593 and my E2 is very good I am only doing .25mgs of Arimidex every 5 days. I was doing .5 mgs everyday dong 150 mgs every week and HCG 350 IU's the 2 days each before my next shot. I for me this works much better. I use a 27g 1ml x 1/2" lg. needle. So I am doing a shot every day between the T and HCG.
Phil
 

smitty4

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Doesn't taking your Arimidex every 5 days make your E2 levels rather uneven?
 

wildfox

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In this protocol, would they be doing the cyp and hCG on alternate days or would they be on the same day?
This man self-administers them on the same day just for convenience sake.
 

pmgamer18

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Doesn't taking your Arimidex every 5 days make your E2 levels rather uneven?
No not realy there are days where I will take it every 3 days but lately it's been every 5 days. One can't just do Arimidex the same dose each time and not go back up high or end up to low. For me the first thing that goes is my morning wood I I go to low. When this happens I check it to see if I can get it up if not I stop the Arimidex until wood comes back. And I take Cialis 20 mgs. every 72 hrs. so when I can't get it up I know it's low E2. This wood thing happens when I am to high but I see other problems when my levels are going to high when I feel them I will go from every 5 days to every 3.
 

wildfox

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Doesn't really matter.

Several points. First, this is an extreme protocol. There's just no need to poke that many holes in yourself in the vast majority of cases.

Next, I currently do not prescribe injectable oil-based medications for subQ injection. ...
Dr. John, the man I was talking about in my original post uses a 29 gauge needle to inject the T. Cyp IM in the vastus lateralis.

WF
 
KSman

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Dear Dr. John,

I wanted to ask you about the following in general as an HRT regimen.

On another board (not "the old board") there is an HRT thread, and another man under his doctor's care is taking a total of 98 mg Test. Cyp per week. He was originally directed to take it as 14mg SC QD and 125iu hCG SC QD. They determined that actually 28 mg T. Cyp SC QOD with 250iu hCG SC QOD was giving him a better response than either just 100mg per week or 14mg per day. Something about a threshold regarding the T, and the hCG based on the study which I have a link to below.

I was wondering what your opinion is regarding such frequent SC administration.

Here is a link to a study regarding QOD hCG administration. Perhaps you are familiar with it?
dspace dot hsl dot washington dot edu/dspace/bitstream/2012/52/1/JCEM_2005_Low_Dose_Human.pdf

Thanks for your care, and thanks in advance for your response.

WF

Correction: I am the guy doing that.
The HCG is SC, the Test cyp is IM in the vastus lateralis. (Skin/fat needs to be thin. 1/2" is deep enough for these small volumes (.14ml EOD)). EOD just seemed to feel better, and more convenient with less injections than ED. The ED was a trial to get a dead steady hormone reference state, then tried EOD and stuck with that as is works well with the HCG EOD as a routine. The ED dosing was never intended to be permanent. Compliance is not a problem for me. I initiated these changes. Motivation: Weekly injections of 100mg test cyp became hell for me.
 

pmgamer18

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Correction: I am the guy doing that.
The HCG is SC, the Test cyp is IM in the vastus lateralis. (Skin/fat needs to be thin. 1/2" is deep enough for these small volumes (.14ml EOD)). EOD just seemed to feel better, and more convenient with less injections than ED. The ED was a trial to get a dead steady hormone reference state, then tried EOD and stuck with that as is works well with the HCG EOD as a routine. The ED dosing was never intended to be permanent. Compliance is not a problem for me. I initiated these changes. Motivation: Weekly injections of 100mg test cyp became hell for me.
Sounds good we need to do what works for us.

I do 200mgs./ml of Depo T .25mls every 3 days and 250 IU's of HCG the 2 days each in between my T shots. I have found this keeps me leveled and helps keep my E2 down. I use a 27g 1ml x 1/2" lg. needle to do both T and HCG shots into my thigh. So I am doing a shot everyday.
Phil
 

plymouth city

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I'd be curious to hear what Dr Crisler thinks about doing hCG IM....
 
KSman

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If that is working well for him, then treatment goals have been met.

I'm just not comfortable with the SC test cyp injections. Not yet, at least.

But the little bit of "pulsing" this protocol provides I think adds benefit.
Once again: That info was mis-reported. The test was IM, not SC as reported.
 

plymouth city

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Smaller needles, less pain, fewer holes in muscles, more stable serum levels.
Interesting. Is there any long term/permanent damage to the muscles from IM injects?

And if thats the case, is SQ injects of T possibly the wave of the future?

Ive heard that T is converted to E in the fat. Might this be an issue for SQ injections of T?

All speculation I know :), not medical advise of course.
 

ItsHectic

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Common Doc, do something special for your 1000th post :D
 
KSman

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Ask anyone who now pools blood in their muscles from too many IM's. They'd be happy to switch to SC if they could.
It might be that #29 .5" injections EOD cause less damage than #22 or #23 1.5" every week. As for the total depth of the wound, 1.5" is about the same as 3.5 x 0.5" [1.75]. But the cross sectional damage of the #29 is way smaller than the #22 or #23. So from a simple dimensional analysis, EOD causes less damage. No question about which is more comfortable.

If sticking one's self EOD is inconvenient, that is a separate issue. If doing 250iu HCG SC EOD, it makes sense to inject T IM on the same days as a convenient routine. Steady T levels will be critical decision point for some.
 

plymouth city

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It might be that #29 .5" injections EOD cause less damage than #22 or #23 1.5" every week. As for the total depth of the wound, 1.5" is about the same as 3.5 x 0.5" [1.75]. But the cross sectional damage of the #29 is way smaller than the #22 or #23. So from a simple dimensional analysis, EOD causes less damage. No question about which is more comfortable.

If sticking one's self EOD is inconvenient, that is a separate issue. If doing 250iu HCG SC EOD, it makes sense to inject T IM on the same days as a convenient routine. Steady T levels will be critical decision point for some.


Thats a dam interesting point there Ksman! :jaw: Id be really curious to hear what Dr Crisler thinks.
 

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