HCG and LH Desensitization: Only in High doses?

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    HCG and LH Desensitization: Only in High doses?


    Many assume that prolonged HCG use will eventually result in near total desensitization, I have not seen evidence for this at low or moderate doses (250ius ED,EOD,E3D,etc.) judging strictly by word of mouth.

    Is this desensitization 'warning' only applicable to 'mega-dosing' HCG at 3000-5000ius?

    Many once thought that was the best or only way to use HCG... I think that preventing shutdown in low doses, so long as desensitization is avoided, is far more ideal - regardless of the length of time HCG is used.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEDeoudes59
    Many assume that prolonged HCG use will eventually result in near total desensitization, I have not seen evidence for this at low or moderate doses (250ius ED,EOD,E3D,etc.) judging strictly by word of mouth.

    Is this desensitization 'warning' only applicable to 'mega-dosing' HCG at 3000-5000ius?
    I assume you are talking about men in a hypogonadal state? For men with a healthly endocrine system, your not going to find much research and I would imagine that even a low dose would eventually result in some type of negative feedback mechanism that may result indirectly or directly in some type of "desensitization."
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    I think you're right.. it seems to be more dose dependant than duration dependant.. altough I'm not an endocrinologist, I just pretend to be one, kind of like Anthony Roberts does.

    Swale may chime in here. *cough*

    Oh, you made that way too easy. I think I'll just put my hands in my pockets now. LOL.
    Last edited by Dr. John; 08-13-2006 at 10:50 AM.
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    i thought i had read that 250ius ED was safer than a weekly shot of 1000+ius. i'll keep quiet for now though
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEDeoudes59
    Many assume that prolonged HCG use will eventually result in near total desensitization, I have not seen evidence for this at low or moderate doses (250ius ED,EOD,E3D,etc.) judging strictly by word of mouth.

    Is this desensitization 'warning' only applicable to 'mega-dosing' HCG at 3000-5000ius?

    Many once thought that was the best or only way to use HCG... I think that preventing shutdown in low doses, so long as desensitization is avoided, is far more ideal - regardless of the length of time HCG is used.
    I am taking very large doses as part of my hrt. My doctor is with Cenegics. Supposedly they have had patients taking 5000 to 10,000 IUs for years with good results.

    I have been on 5,000 IUs twice a week for the last two months. So far I prefer it to the transdermal therapy. I should be getting a blood test in two weeks. I'll let you know the results. I will continue to post my progress as long as this board exists. It will be slow, so I don't anticpate posting often, although I will answer any questions that I can. Hopefully my information will be usefull.
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    Doing a dose that high 5k will make you Primary low T meaning your testis will not work anymore. Say your first test was 350 total T this means if your primary your testis will make a levels or T up to 350. If you keep doing 5k you can burn them out. And this means your testis will not even make your base line test. Don't believe everything anyone says.
    Phil
    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf
    I am taking very large doses as part of my hrt. My doctor is with Cenegics. Supposedly they have had patients taking 5000 to 10,000 IUs for years with good results.

    I have been on 5,000 IUs twice a week for the last two months. So far I prefer it to the transdermal therapy. I should be getting a blood test in two weeks. I'll let you know the results. I will continue to post my progress as long as this board exists. It will be slow, so I don't anticpate posting often, although I will answer any questions that I can. Hopefully my information will be usefull.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18
    Doing a dose that high 5k will make you Primary low T meaning your testis will not work anymore. Say your first test was 350 total T this means if your primary your testis will make a levels or T up to 350. If you keep doing 5k you can burn them out. And this means your testis will not even make your base line test. Don't believe everything anyone says.
    Phil

    Thanks Pmgamer. As I said before, I will post my upcoming test results. I'll let you know if I have gone into secondary hypogonadism. Iím sure my LH will be quite low.

    FYI, I am doing this under the care of a physician backed by a well known clinic. Although I too am skeptical, Iíve committed to try it his way first. I'm not 100% sold - mainly because of Swale's opinion and the general tone on this board. I plan to question the results and continue my own research before deciding a future course of action.

    I hope my results will help inform those who are considering this. Younger men than I are in need of HRT. It may be the environment or hormone laden food. Whatever the reason, modern medicine and health care will have to address this problem.
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    Have you seen this link on HCG. I did a test I was doing 500 IU's of HCG 3x's a week on top of a depo T shot of 150 mgs. Just on the 150 mgs. of depo T shots every week my Total T was only 650 for my labs range this was to low my labs range is 262-1598. So when we added HCG 500 IU's 3x's a week after the 15th shot we did a blood test and my Total T doubled. I was told for yrs I am primary now my testis are working. So we cut the dose every 4 weeks and retested. Doing 350 IU's of HCG 3x's a week did not bring down my levels. So this told me I did not need 500 IU's 3x's a week to bring up my levels. We went down to 250 IU's 3x's a week and my levels did come down but only 100 points. I feel if your doing more HCG then your testis can handle it is a waste and what is left turns into Estradiol have you had this tested I am betting you dam high.
    Phil
    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf
    Thanks Pmgamer. As I said before, I will post my upcoming test results. I'll let you know if I have gone into secondary hypogonadism. Iím sure my LH will be quite low.

    FYI, I am doing this under the care of a physician backed by a well known clinic. Although I too am skeptical, Iíve committed to try it his way first. I'm not 100% sold - mainly because of Swale's opinion and the general tone on this board. I plan to question the results and continue my own research before deciding a future course of action.

    I hope my results will help inform those who are considering this. Younger men than I are in need of HRT. It may be the environment or hormone laden food. Whatever the reason, modern medicine and health care will have to address this problem.
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    Sorry I for got the dam link.
    Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression -- Coviello et al. 90 (5): 2595 -- Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism
    Phil
    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18
    Have you seen this link on HCG. I did a test I was doing 500 IU's of HCG 3x's a week on top of a depo T shot of 150 mgs. Just on the 150 mgs. of depo T shots every week my Total T was only 650 for my labs range this was to low my labs range is 262-1598. So when we added HCG 500 IU's 3x's a week after the 15th shot we did a blood test and my Total T doubled. I was told for yrs I am primary now my testis are working. So we cut the dose every 4 weeks and retested. Doing 350 IU's of HCG 3x's a week did not bring down my levels. So this told me I did not need 500 IU's 3x's a week to bring up my levels. We went down to 250 IU's 3x's a week and my levels did come down but only 100 points. I feel if your doing more HCG then your testis can handle it is a waste and what is left turns into Estradiol have you had this tested I am betting you dam high.
    Phil
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18
    Have you seen this link on HCG. I did a test I was doing 500 IU's of HCG 3x's a week on top of a depo T shot of 150 mgs. Just on the 150 mgs. of depo T shots every week my Total T was only 650 for my labs range this was to low my labs range is 262-1598. So when we added HCG 500 IU's 3x's a week after the 15th shot we did a blood test and my Total T doubled. I was told for yrs I am primary now my testis are working. So we cut the dose every 4 weeks and retested. Doing 350 IU's of HCG 3x's a week did not bring down my levels. So this told me I did not need 500 IU's 3x's a week to bring up my levels. We went down to 250 IU's 3x's a week and my levels did come down but only 100 points. I feel if your doing more HCG then your testis can handle it is a waste and what is left turns into Estradiol have you had this tested I am betting you dam high.
    Phil
    Thank you very much for the link Phil. I expect much higher estradiol levels. I will probably be prescribed Arimidex after the blood test. I've discussed reducing the dose with the doctor and the clinic a few times. I was on testosterone cream for a year - now I'm on HCG alone. The doctor thinks I'll respond. If I don't I will be back on testosterone. We shall see.
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    When you were first tested did they tell you why you have low T. Like are you Primary meaning your testis don't work or Seconday meaning your testis work but they don't get the message to make T a pituitary problem.

    Have you ever taken Arimidex before if not I can help you so you don't go to low.
    Phil
    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf
    Thank you very much for the link Phil. I expect much higher estradiol levels. I will probably be prescribed Arimidex after the blood test. I've discussed reducing the dose with the doctor and the clinic a few times. I was on testosterone cream for a year - now I'm on HCG alone. The doctor thinks I'll respond. If I don't I will be back on testosterone. We shall see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18
    When you were first tested did they tell you why you have low T. Like are you Primary meaning your testis don't work or Seconday meaning your testis work but they don't get the message to make T a pituitary problem.

    Have you ever taken Arimidex before if not I can help you so you don't go to low.
    Phil
    The doctor thinks I'm secondary, and can produce my own testosterone through HCG therapy.

    I gave him my old workup prior to a year of transdermal treatment from my previous doctor. Of course the numbers look different now. He will be testing me in a few weeks. The last test was done after two weeks of no treatment. My estradiol was low at 6 (normal range for test is 10-50). Total test was 90 (a little better than my wife's) and LH was .07. I had crashed.

    On the cream my total test was 1711, estradiol 20 and LH at .7. Prior to a year of the cream my total test was 475 and LH at 3.9. My new doctor doesn’t like the cream for men - says it spikes DHT levels; mine were pretty high.

    Hopefully by the end of the month I will post my new results. I like the doctor and his company. They have prestigious clients and good references. Dr. Barry Sears, author of The Zone Diet sits on their board and is a patient. I want to give them a chance, but as always I'll remain skeptical. This is still a relatively new field.

    A note: My previous doctor would not prescribe HGC. He said it wasn't needed with the cream. He also told me not to worry about my DHT levels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    I always like to keep up with what's going on in my community. May I ask where you are going?

    I getting my treatment at Cenegenics. I read dr. Shippen's article and bookmarked Phil's link. I plan to send it to my doctor. I'd like to see him get reps for the post. At least it was important to me.

    This is becoming a great thread of information.
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    I had listened to a auto link, a Radio interview with Cenegenics and Dr. John was in it asking a question. I did a search for it and can't find it. I did come across this form 60 Minutes.
    Aging In The 21st Century, Steve Kroft Reports On The New Field Of Anti-Aging Medicine - CBS News
    Phil
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    I am still looking for it if I find it I will send it to you. And they were taking about hcg then went into talking about HGH.
    Phil
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    I did not realize those teleconferences were being broadcast to the general public.

    If it is the one you are thinking of, the topic of discussion was HCG dosing. I spoke up and said, with all due respect, IMPO you should not dose HCG above 500IU's at a time. Dr. Anton Dotson, their Chief Clinician, said "Dr. Crisler, I'll be happy to send you a couple of studies to help you understand how to dose HCG properly" or words to that effect.

    The next day my fax machine spit out a couple of studies, via Dr. Dotson. It was very nice of him to follow up. However, the two studies involved HCG, but did nothing to make their point.

    Some time later, the study Phil already posted on this Forum came out, thus irrefutably proving my point exactly.

    A new patient of mine, formerly one of Dr. Dotson's, told me Dr. Dotson has since left Cenegenics. He is a very nice man, and has finished at the top of everything he has ever done. Wherever he goes, we wish him well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Their actual office in Las Vegas, or someone they have trained at an ancillary clinic?

    One of their doctors in Boca Raton. I called the Vegas office to question his prescription though. It seems my dosgae is not uncommon for them. I plan to fax him the study.
  

  
 

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