My Cenegenics Experience - AnabolicMinds.com

My Cenegenics Experience

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    My Cenegenics Experience


    Good call on stating this forum B5150. I will use this to update my Cenegenics experience.

    Last week they sent a nurse to draw blood at my home. She drew six vials. Eight weeks prior to that I stopped transdermal test. I was put on 5000 IUs of HCG for four weeks and then off for four before drawing blood. I also fasted for 12 hours. Since then I have been back on the HCG and feel pretty good. My energy level is high, my libido is high and I'm sleeping well.

    Next Friday morning I'll be checking into a hospital for extensive testing and a consultation with the doctor.

    I'll keep everyone posted.

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    We're looking foward to your progress.
    My The 1 LOG: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/254164-my-one-log.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by motiv8er
    We're looking foward to your progress.
    My visit started Friday morning at Florida Atlantic University’s MRI unit. That’s where I had my bone density test. Upon ar***** I was greeted by Dr Willix’s assistant. She stayed with me and then I followed her back to the main office at Cenegenics. When I arrived, another assistant welcomed me; there was a sign in the waiting room with my personal greeting. Apparently the day was set aside for me. They prepared a nicely appointed room with a laptop, fruit, water and an assortment of teas. A menu was waiting on the table for my lunch selection. And in that room my first test began. On the laptop I went through a series of mental tests ranging form memory to response time.

    Later I moved into the examining room for weight and height measurements. For some reason I measured only 6’2.5. That last time, which was several years ago I measured 6’4.” My weight was 257lb, and the body fat tests revealed 20% body fat – higher than I expected. I was given a strength test and flexibility test. I did well on both. Then my blood pressure was taken and I was given an EKG. It was 119/65 with a resting pulse rate of 60. My EKG showed no abnormalities. They served me a wonderful lunch followed by a video explaining insulin levels and degenerative disease before my consultation and final exam with the doctor.

    Dr Willix was cardiovascular doctor and thoracic surgeon. He gave up a lucrative practice years ago to pursue preventative medicine. He studied Ayurvedic medicine and is also a shaman. His decision was not popular in the medical community at that time. He also competed regularly in Iron Man events. At 66 he is in remarkable condition. His exam was thorough, and included eye, reflexes, hernia and rectal. He also examined my tongue which surprised me. Since I was young I’ve had a pronounced geographic tongue. He explained that it was due to poor intestinal exorbtion, and probably a cause of demineralization in my spine and hips – nothing severe, but slightly in the high range for my age. I found it hard to believe, so he pulled out an Ayurvedic chart that showed my aberration. He prescribed probiotics and yogurt, and I was told to avoid sodas because they rob bones of calcium.

    My blood panels, which were extensive (I gave 6 vials of blood after a 12 hour fast) looked very good. My glucose panel showed no sign of impending diabetes. My thyroid levels were good. Kidney and liver functions were very good. My HDL was a little low. My test levels had crashed as expected and my estradiol was very low.

    Prior to my visit, I listed all of the supplements I take along with diet and workout logs (both weights and cardio). The doctor explained that Niacin can lower both good and bad cholesterols and suggested I take 1200 mgs of red rice yeast at bedtime instead. He prescribed 75 mgs of DHEA to be taken in the morning and 5000 IUs of HCG twice a week for the next eight weeks. He will follow up with a blood test to see how I respond and then set my maintenance dosage. Based on my panels and exam he thinks I will respond well. He is keeping me on 7.5 IUs of HGH per week. My current IGF level is 300. He told me to keep taking the rest of my supplements and not change dosage with the exception of EFAs. He wants me to make sure my omegas have EPA of 2- 3 grams. As an Ayurvedic doctor, he was impressed with the USPLab supplements I have been taking. I was glad because they make me feel pretty good and I don't want to give them up. I promised myself and the doctor to give this at least six months. Although I’m somewhat skeptical (as usual) I want to give it a fair chance.

    He put me on a low GI diet and revised my workout plan. I will be doing cardio 5 days per week. My heart rate will have to be between 140 and 150 beats per minute for at least 20 minutes during each session. No overall duration was mentioned. He wants me to hit only one body part per week. There will be 7 sets per exercise with a pyramiding rep range between 6 and 12 reps. Rests between sets will only be for one minute. He wants me to maintain this workout until I reach a target weight of 220lbs. Later I will be able to resume lower reps with longer rests for strength.

    I’m sure that I left out quite a bit. The doctor will be monitoring my progress, and I will post updates and answer any questions.
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    Thanks for the detailed log.
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    Very interesting log. I am a bit taken aback by the hcg dosages that high over and eight week period of time. I was under the impression that prolonged dosages that high could cause irreversible damage for natural LH production? I will stay tuned her for sure. At somepoint I can lay out my current HRT as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcam222
    Very interesting log. I am a bit taken aback by the hcg dosages that high over and eight week period of time. I was under the impression that prolonged dosages that high could cause irreversible damage for natural LH production? I will stay tuned her for sure. At somepoint I can lay out my current HRT as well.

    I was worried about the same (LH), but the doctor assures me that production would return to normal. This treatment isn't for everyone. It won't work for those whose testes can no longer produce.
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    Thanks colkurtz_spf
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    Quote Originally Posted by B5150
    Thanks colkurtz_spf
    B5150, it is my pleasure. Thank you for creating this forum. I predict it will grow in time. This subjuct is desperately needed.

    I would like to add to jcam222's response that my doseage would have been far less if I hadn't already been on therapy.
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    Thanks for the answer and update colkurtz_spf. I will definately be watching your log with interest. Thanks for taking the time to share the info with us.
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    Heya Doc!! Good to see you pop in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SWALE
    IMPO, you should never inject more than 500IU at a time. Probably 250 is even better.

    A couple of months ago I had lunch with Dr. Eugene Shippen (we are going to meet in a couple weeks to discuss a new project). He drew a chart on a paper napkin which plateaued. He called this "testosterone response to HCG". I asked him where he feels the plateau lies. He said "somewhere less than 500IU". Next he extended two lines upward. One for estrogen, the other progesterone.

    If you think of it, there are only just so many Leydig cells to stimulate. I'm sure you have all seen that study where 125IU HCG brought T levels to within 7% of baseline in completely HPTA-suppressed men.
    Thank you for your post. I've been out of town on vacation for the past ten days and regret not being able to respond sooner.

    I've followed your protocol for post cycle therapy and it for me it worked well. Until recently I had not injected more than 500 IUs at any one time. I will be on the current protocol prescribed by Cenegenics for another 5 or 6 weeks until my blood is tested, after which I assume the dose will taper off to 250IUs. I've been told it will be much less, but not how much less. What you say makes sense, and I suppose that there may be a lot of waste in my dosage.

    I will post updates.
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    Any updates?

    Inquiring minds
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickM
    Any updates?

    Inquiring minds
    I hope to have my labs back next week. I'll post the results.
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    The results are in.


    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf
    I hope to have my labs back next week. I'll post the results.

    These are the results from the labs my doctor ordered. At this point I was on 5,000 IUs of HCG twice a week for a period of 10 weeks. I haven't spoken with him yet, but he is aware that I wish to reduce the dosage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf
    These are the results from the labs my doctor ordered. At this point I was on 5,000 IUs of HCG twice a week for a period of 10 weeks. I haven't spoken with him yet, but he is aware that I wish to reduce the dosage.

    I think it's important to mention that I came off a one year transdermal cycle in June, and that my levels had crashed. Prior to TRT my total test was 476. The transdermal had me up to 1711.

    I hope to speak with my doctor this week. I'll post his recommendations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Did he try to restore your system first?

    Even if not, because of your HCG use, probably it would be a good idea.
    We first spoke around the end of May. Before our initial exam and bloodwork, he told me to discontinue the transdermal and begin using HCG at high doses. After two or three weeks I stopped using anything. Two weeks after that I was tested, and was shocked to see how low my level were; I thought there had been a mistake. Although I must say that I was feeling a bit run down at the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    IMPO, an HPTA-recovery protocol is clearly warranted.
    Thank you for your input. I'm not sure that I clearly understand you. Do you mean to re-establish baseline levels?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Yes, to restart your own system. Then you wouldn't have to be on TRT in order to be healthy.
    Thank you very much for your advice.
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    Awesome postings colkurtz and Dr. John. Thank you both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf
    These are the results from the labs my doctor ordered. At this point I was on 5,000 IUs of HCG twice a week for a period of 10 weeks. I haven't spoken with him yet, but he is aware that I wish to reduce the dosage.
    My doctor reviewed my labs with me on Friday and was pleased. He asked me to continue with the high HCG dose for another 8 weeks. Of course I expressed concern. He pointed out that my estradiol, DHT and PSA levels were all in good ranges. I was told that my test levels will be lower on the next report, and that by the end of the year he will have me maintaining high test levels on 2000 IUs or less per week.

    I've agreed to continue with him.
    Last edited by colkurtz_spf; 09-10-2006 at 08:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Did you mean that as written?

    Have you had breakdown of Estrogens to include Estrone done? How about Total Estrogens and Progesterone?

    On what day was your lab assay compared to injection day?

    Dosages that high have been shown, without a doubt, to down regulate Leydig cell LH receptors. And biphasic T response--more evidence of induced hormonal mayhem.

    I can tell you that there just isn't anyone at the cutting edge who employs dosing such as that anymore.

    It might be a good idea to consider tapering that HCG right down, perhaps adding in a SERM, to see if your system will recover.
    The lab was preformed two days after an injection. I had complete panels on the last test.

    Are you saying that my leydig cells are being burned out?
    I've checked my protocol with the medical staff at Cenegenics. I'm not a doctor and assumed they are on the leading edge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Can you check them for the three assays?

    I can only share with you MPO, if you know what I mean. AND what I have heard the other top docs in the field say. Did you happen to read my retelling of the conversation I had with the legendary Dr. Eugene Shippen regarding HCG dosing on this Forum?

    Again, and I stress this, I'd sure like to see if you could become non-TRT dependent. The HCG therapy you have been on will have helped you in this.

    And did you mean to say your doctor told you that your T output will be dropping?
    I can't tell you how much I appreciate your input on this.

    My doctor told me my test levels would be lower in eight weeks. He is OK with me scaling back the dosage if I wish, but doesn't see the need. I'm sure I can ask for complete panels as well. I could tell him tomorrow that I am reducing my dose to 1500 IUs per week.
    Last edited by colkurtz_spf; 09-10-2006 at 09:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    Can you check them for the three assays?

    I can only share with you MPO, if you know what I mean. AND what I have heard the other top docs in the field say. Did you happen to read my retelling of the conversation I had with the legendary Dr. Eugene Shippen regarding HCG dosing on this Forum?

    Again, and I stress this, I'd sure like to see if you could become non-TRT dependent. The HCG therapy you have been on will have helped you in this.

    And did you mean to say your doctor told you that your T output will be dropping?

    I think I will need another draw for those three assays. Nothing would please me more than to be free of trt. Do you think my dosage should be reduced over time or discontinued immediately? What levels do you like to see testosterone at?
    I hope you don't mind me asking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John
    It gets kind of sticky here, but I do not want to try to direct your medicla care through this Forum. I am just trying to suggest a couple of things whhc may benefit you--and the rest of the members here.

    If T levels admittedly drop over time when HCG is administered at such high dosages, what does that tell us?

    I hasten to add that we cannot expect every physician to have the time to keep up with what is going on at the cutting edge. We all do the best we can.
    I appreciate your suggestions and will keep posting my choices and results here on this forum.

    Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I appreciate your suggestions and will keep posting my choices and results here on this forum.
    colkurtz,

    How have things been progressing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by t-bone2 View Post
    colkurtz,

    How have things been progressing?
    So far so good. My dosage has been reduced by 60% and my T levels remain the same.

    This summer will mark the anniversary of my treatment. I plan to post my results. I feel great, but still not convinced. I have doubts about long-term effects. Soon I will have to make a decision.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    What does that tell us?

    Did you have Estrogen, progesterone, and SHBG monitored along the way?
    Only estrogen. They don't believe in monitoring SHBG - not sure why they omit progesterone. I sent my doc researsch showing the importance of Bioavailable T and SHBG. It didn't change things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    So far so good. My dosage has been reduced by 60% and my T levels remain the same.

    This summer will mark the anniversary of my treatment. I plan to post my results. I feel great, but still not convinced. I have doubts about long-term effects. Soon I will have to make a decision.
    What would convice you?
    Have you felt great for most of the year or this is just short (insignificant??) event?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    What would convice you?
    Have you felt great for most of the year or this is just short (insignificant??) event?
    Sorry I did not respond sooner. I've been out of town.

    I suppose I have no right to complain. This past year I have felt better than I have in decades. Still, I worry about the long-term effects of this treatment. One year is a short time frame for me. Regardless of my results in June I plan to get a second opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Sorry I did not respond sooner. I've been out of town.

    I suppose I have no right to complain. This past year I have felt better than I have in decades. Still, I worry about the long-term effects of this treatment. One year is a short time frame for me. Regardless of my results in June I plan to get a second opinion.
    Understood. WE get one body, one life. Its a shame to waste it one way or another. Then again, when I check out, I hope I shatter into a million pieces; cause there wont be sh!t left on me to work!! I used it all up in this life.
    My The 1 LOG: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/254164-my-one-log.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by motiv8er View Post
    Understood. WE get one body, one life. Its a shame to waste it one way or another. Then again, when I check out, I hope I shatter into a million pieces; cause there wont be sh!t left on me to work!! I used it all up in this life.

    That's a good philosophy. Unfortunately as we get older we start to think about the quality of life. Being bound by a wheel chair or attached to a colostomy bag is not the most appealing lifestyle. It's not how long you live, but how you live it long.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    That's a good philosophy. Unfortunately as we get older we start to think about the quality of life. Being bound by a wheel chair or attached to a colostomy bag is not the most appealing lifestyle. It's not how long you live, but how you live it long.
    Beautifully said. At 27, my daredevil stunt days are OVER. Ive always been a risk taker, but now my risks are in other ventures, like business/money and other risks that don't involve anything physical.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    That's a good philosophy. Unfortunately as we get older we start to think about the quality of life. Being bound by a wheel chair or attached to a colostomy bag is not the most appealing lifestyle. It's not how long you live, but how you live it long.
    Agreed. However, this is my 61 year old father take on it. And why he hopes just to bike off a cliff when it is his time. For the above mentioned reasons, but also why his mental state is his own. I am being very serious. You could say he's gonna rock until the wheels roll off!!
    My The 1 LOG: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/254164-my-one-log.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Sorry I did not respond sooner. I've been out of town.

    I suppose I have no right to complain. This past year I have felt better than I have in decades. Still, I worry about the long-term effects of this treatment. One year is a short time frame for me. Regardless of my results in June I plan to get a second opinion.
    Whats your current drug regimine?
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    Quote Originally Posted by motiv8er View Post
    Agreed. However, this is my 61 year old father take on it. And why he hopes just to bike off a cliff when it is his time. For the above mentioned reasons, but also why his mental state is his own. I am being very serious. You could say he's gonna rock until the wheels roll off!!
    It's a good philosophy, and one that I subscribe to.

    When I was not much older than you (31) I was diagnosed with a spinal condition that was supposed to paralyze me by 50. Of course there was a surgical solution - one that I ignored. At 39 I was unable to walk for a period of six weeks. A Rumanian miracle worker was able to massage me to my feet again. After that I hit the gym. It was difficult. I couldn't bend to tie my shoes let alone perform a squat. Today (10 years later) I dead lift 465 from the ground for six reps and bench 225 for 19.

    I believe in getting as much out of life as possible, and in my mind it means taking care of my body. The parable about ending your life in a worn out body VS a well-preserved one is actually quite old. One could take it as literal, but I prefer to think of it as a metaphor for getting the most out of life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Whats your current drug regimine?
    I'm currently using HCG 2000 IUs twice per week and taking 1 MG of Arimidex 3 times per week. My dosage is constantly decreasing and my test numbers keep going up, and that is making me nervous.

    Currently my total test is over 1400 and free at 425. My estradiol is at 56, but I don't feel any of the associated sides. My libido is very high. I started last June at 10,000 IUs per week. I have a call with my doc next week; we should be moving down to 2000 IUs or less per week.

    I thinking about a consultation with Dr. Shabana, but he doesn't run the same panels as Dr. John and so I'm reluctant.
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    Wholy **** your on alot of drugs! 4000UI of hCG per week? Its been proven that testical function is best restored at 500IU - 750 IU per week.

    And 3mg of arimidex? Wow.

    How much T? Any GH?

    Your TT of 1400 is crazy bro. I would think that would NOT be safe long term. I think its best to be conservative with it and shoot for ranges that a normal male 24 - 30 has, shooting for ranges in the 600's and a little higher.
    Last edited by plymouth city; 04-06-2007 at 05:12 PM. Reason: none
  38. New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    At 39 I was unable to walk for a period of six weeks. A Rumanian miracle worker was able to massage me to my feet again. After that I hit the gym. It was difficult. I couldn't bend to tie my shoes let alone perform a squat. Today (10 years later) I dead lift 465 from the ground for six reps and bench 225 for 19.
    Very couragous. Lots of folks would have given up. 465 for 6 is respectable at any age.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I'm currently using HCG 2000 IUs twice per week and taking 1 MG of Arimidex 3 times per week. My dosage is constantly decreasing and my test numbers keep going up, and that is making me nervous.

    Currently my total test is over 1400 and free at 425. My estradiol is at 56, but I don't feel any of the associated sides. My libido is very high. I started last June at 10,000 IUs per week. I have a call with my doc next week; we should be moving down to 2000 IUs or less per week.

    I thinking about a consultation with Dr. Shabana, but he doesn't run the same panels as Dr. John and so I'm reluctant.
    Whatewer you are doing is working for you.
    Cannot argue with success.
    Have you in any of the previous posts provided description of your self your complains, treatment you have got. History of treatment and possiby reason that you doctor did what he did.

    If you did, please post a link to this posts if not, I would appreciate if you provide this information.
  40. The horror
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Whatewer you are doing is working for you.
    Cannot argue with success.
    Have you in any of the previous posts provided description of your self your complains, treatment you have got. History of treatment and possiby reason that you doctor did what he did.

    If you did, please post a link to this posts if not, I would appreciate if you provide this information.
    I started this thread. In the beginning I posted some intial blood test results and I think I may have given some background. I plan to update this the end of June.
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