Crashed e2 again

[GreenMachineX]

In March, my sensitive e2 was 21 and felt great hormonally (had other unrelated junk going on though). As of 2 weeks ago, it was 11.5! My protocol is 50mg test cyp twice per week, and 10mg sublingual DHEA daily.

I take otherwise:
2 caps Thorne Basic Nutrients III
3g vitamin C
5000iu vitamin D
2.4g EPA/DHA fish oil
2 caps ZMA
16mg Zinc Carnosine
600mg KSM-66
120-240mg Gaia Rhodiola
125mcg Synthroid

The only things really new in the stack are the rhodiola and zinc. It’s only 36mg supplemental zinc, but maybe it’s just too much for me? I’ve had issues with low e2 in the past, and haven’t taken an AI in 9 months. Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[kl1234]

What is tt at?

 

[GreenMachineX]

What is tt at?

500-600. Any higher and my hematocrit skyrockets.

 

[kl1234]

Ah I see... I was going to say try and raise tt a bit

 

[The Matrix]

Are you looking at just numbers?
What symptoms changed?

 

[GreenMachineX]

Are you looking at just numbers?
What symptoms changed?

First I felt the minor anxiety increase with mild palpitations and blood pressure elevation (130’s to 140’s over 80’s to 90’s), and as it got worse, mild brain fog, low energy, low libido, achy/tight muscles. When I had the lab work drawn, I didn’t feel too bad, and thought it was going to be mid 20’s and be perfect. It took 2 weeks for the lab results to get to me and when I got the results, everything made sense. Every time I crash it, I forget what it’s like. So, I forgot to mention, mild memory impairment (ironic, isn’t it?).

Edit: also forgot to mention, actually had midnight wood last night finally. No other symptoms improved yet though.

 

[kenpoengineer]

Are you taking an AI?

 

[The Matrix]

You do understand e2 effects cortisol and thyroid function. If they are not addressed properly then you will feel more swing of e2 then others. People are failing to look at gh levels as they are also a huge stabilizer for many hormones. Despite what blood tests may show they are missing the other 80% of the equation which is occurring at the tissue and receptor levels..

 

[GreenMachineX]

Are you taking an AI?

Haven’t taken a real AI in 9 months.
Only the zinc and DHEA was new. Well, and restarted the ketogenic diet again, but I don’t see how that could’ve done it.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Looking back at my other thread, I see that I was supplementing zinc and using the ketogenic diet when I had good e2 labs back in March. Granted, I don’t know how long I was using the zinc. But, I am convinced somehow the sublingual DHEA is bad for my e2. Perhaps just zero aromatization of it and it increases DHT substantially in me causing e2 to drop? I don’t know, but I do know every time I’ve experimented with DHEA shortly after I’ve had flutters and BP issues.

My BP is now running 140’s to 160’s over 80’s to 90’s which is typical for me when e2 is crashed. I’m giving up on DHEA sublingual for a while. If I use it again, it’ll be just swallowing a pill of junk DHEA, not micronized or anything.

Hopefully my e2 comes back quickly because I feel like hell. It’s a vicious circle...low e2 makes my BP worse, and gives anxiety, then my anxiety makes my BP go even higher, which makes my anxiety even worse!

Using lemon balm, ksm-66, theanine, taurine, and citrulline in the mean time. Any other anxiety suggestions? It’s not quite enough...

Fun thing to note, I figured out eventually all the high powered multivitamins give me insomnia unless I take rhodiola as well, then I sleep fine.

 

[The Matrix]

CBD oils work well for people

 

[Jobu777]

Ksm 66 potenates thyroid which could increase anxiety and associated side effects. I also believe that fish oil well may have some anti estrogenic effect in some people, every time I take it for several days in a row my libido crashes. It was so noticeable I googled it and found others had the same problem. Few days after stopping back to normal.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Ksm 66 potenates thyroid which could increase anxiety and associated side effects. I also believe that fish oil well may have some anti estrogenic effect in some people, every time I take it for several days in a row my libido crashes. It was so noticeable I googled it and found others had the same problem. Few days after stopping back to normal.

That could be happening with me as well, but it does seem unlikely. Unlikely as DHEA crushing my e2 I guess so I’m not canceling anything out.

 

[kenpoengineer]

By chance, does your compounded testosterone contain anastrozole? Research zinc and estradiol. Reading on forums that some are claiming zinc is lowering estradiol.

 

[GreenMachineX]

By chance, does your compounded testosterone contain anastrozole? Research zinc and estradiol. Reading on forums that some are claiming zinc is lowering estradiol.

I use test cyp from a real pharmacy, not compounded. I’m 5 days or so post DHEA and zinc, and feeling a *little* better. Still having trouble with BP as last night it was 150/90, but this morning it was 130/85 1 hour after 1 gram taurine and 1.5 grams citrulline.

Morning and late afternoon anxiety still sucks. Dizziness/lightheadedness after meals and when standing up too quickly, random heart flutters and palpitations, lip and other random muscle twitches, eyes look super sleep deprived, achy joints. I’m going to stop fish oil as well, we’ll see if that helps.

 

[Walrusieo]

My estrogen went from 19 to 9 within 4 months the only thing I have taken is pes Truemulti and last month mtest . I'm thinking ksm66 is dropping estrogen . I'm not on any steroids or anything hormonal .

 

[GreenMachineX]

My estrogen went from 19 to 9 within 4 months the only thing I have taken is pes Truemulti and last month mtest . I'm thinking ksm66 is dropping estrogen . I'm not on any steroids or anything hormonal .

I’m thinking the Tongkat in m-test did it. I’ve read some stuff about it having AI effects. I’ve never seen anything on ksm-66 being an AI.

 

[Walrusieo]

I only took it for 1 month out of the four months between my blood work . I wont be taking anything with tongkat anymore and get more blood work done in 4 or 5 months .

 

[rtmilburn]

CBD oils work well for people

For pain? Or is it to help balance the endocrine system here?

As I don't see it doing the latter but I could be wrong, as do not know to much about cbd

 

[The Matrix]

Have cannabinoids receptors through out the body. If you increase resistance to stress then your endocrine system can rebalance. I just signed on with one of the largest reseach projects with CBDs.

 

[rtmilburn]

Have cannabinoids receptors through out the body. If you increase resistance to stress then your endocrine system can rebalance. I just signed on with one of the largest reseach projects with CBDs.

What's the prefered route of administration? Vape? Sublingual? Topical

 

[The Matrix]

Every one has a different preference. Vaping gets to brain faster and lungs. Oral I will use in chrons and other IBDS. Depends on what needs to be addressed.

 

[petsur]

How has the CBD project been going? Anything to share about it?
Thx

 

[Zvch]

I use test cyp from a real pharmacy, not compounded. I’m 5 days or so post DHEA and zinc, and feeling a *little* better. Still having trouble with BP as last night it was 150/90, but this morning it was 130/85 1 hour after 1 gram taurine and 1.5 grams citrulline.

Morning and late afternoon anxiety still sucks. Dizziness/lightheadedness after meals and when standing up too quickly, random heart flutters and palpitations, lip and other random muscle twitches, eyes look super sleep deprived, achy joints. I’m going to stop fish oil as well, we’ll see if that helps.

I know this is an old thread and I’m gonna sound like a dick, but why wouldn’t you just take an extra 50-100mg shot to get some estrogen conversion instead of continuing to feel like shxt for weeks? That seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I know this is an old thread and I’m gonna sound like a dick, but why wouldn’t you just take an extra 50-100mg shot to get some estrogen conversion instead of continuing to feel like shxt for weeks? That seems like a no-brainer to me.

Because anymore than what I use drives my hematocrit and hemoglobin way too high.

 

[Zvch]

Because anymore than what I use drives my hematocrit and hemoglobin way too high.

I know, I read that post too. Hemoglobin and Hematocrit aren’t something that just multiply overnight though. It’s a gradual increase over an extended period of time, usually months, with a higher dosage. One 50-100mg shot of extra Test isn’t going to do that in a week or two. It is going to fix your low estrogen problem though.

Hemoglobin and Hematocrit really aren’t like a life or death matter either. Your blood gets thicker and your blood pressure goes up when your numbers get high, but they have to get really high. Increases in Hemoglobin and Hematocrit aren’t something that’s unique to your situation. Elevated numbers are a fact of taking exogenous testosterone. It’s a simple fix - you just donate blood regularly.

I just think you put yourself through a lot of misery for no reason. Trust me, I know how bad Low E is. I also think being around 500-600 Total Testosterone is a poor excuse for therapy. If you’re going to replace your testosterone indefinitely and stick yourself with a needle twice a week for the rest of your life, your numbers should be at twice that - there’s no reason not to be - and If your doctor doesn’t feel the same, I think you should find a new one. You shouldn’t be at low normal-range levels of testosterone on TRT, you should be at 1000-1200. You should be at optimal levels, feeling fantastic. That’s the whole point of anti-aging medicine.

Just my opinion man. I wanna see guys feeling the best that they possibly can and it frustrates me when I read so many posts of guys having bad information or bad doctors.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I know, I read that post too. Hemoglobin and Hematocrit aren’t something that just multiply overnight though. It’s a gradual increase over an extended period of time, usually months, with a higher dosage. One 50-100mg shot of extra Test isn’t going to do that in a week or two. It is going to fix your low estrogen problem though.

Hemoglobin and Hematocrit really aren’t like a life or death matter either. Your blood gets thicker and your blood pressure goes up when your numbers get high, but they have to get really high. Increases in Hemoglobin and Hematocrit aren’t something that’s unique to your situation. Elevated numbers are a fact of taking exogenous testosterone. It’s a simple fix - you just donate blood regularly.

I just think you put yourself through a lot of misery for no reason. Trust me, I know how bad Low E is. I also think being around 500-600 Total Testosterone is a poor excuse for therapy. If you’re going to replace your testosterone indefinitely and stick yourself with a needle twice a week for the rest of your life, your numbers should be at twice that - there’s no reason not to be - and If your doctor doesn’t feel the same, I think you should find a new one. You shouldn’t be at low normal-range levels of testosterone on TRT, you should be at 1000-1200. You should be at optimal levels, feeling fantastic. That’s the whole point of anti-aging medicine.

Just my opinion man. I wanna see guys feeling the best that they possibly can and it frustrates me when I read so many posts of guys having bad information or bad doctors.

I get what your saying, but my h/h get up to 19 hemoglobin and 58 crit when my testosterone levels reach >1000. My e2 right now is good enough, it’s at 17-18. Not great, but I have plenty of energy, libido and morning wood. If I’m feeling like this with these numbers, aren’t I just treating a number at that point?

 

[kisaj]

I know, I read that post too. Hemoglobin and Hematocrit aren’t something that just multiply overnight though. It’s a gradual increase over an extended period of time, usually months, with a higher dosage. One 50-100mg shot of extra Test isn’t going to do that in a week or two. It is going to fix your low estrogen problem though.

Hemoglobin and Hematocrit really aren’t like a life or death matter either. Your blood gets thicker and your blood pressure goes up when your numbers get high, but they have to get really high. Increases in Hemoglobin and Hematocrit aren’t something that’s unique to your situation. Elevated numbers are a fact of taking exogenous testosterone. It’s a simple fix - you just donate blood regularly.

I just think you put yourself through a lot of misery for no reason. Trust me, I know how bad Low E is. I also think being around 500-600 Total Testosterone is a poor excuse for therapy. If you’re going to replace your testosterone indefinitely and stick yourself with a needle twice a week for the rest of your life, your numbers should be at twice that - there’s no reason not to be - and If your doctor doesn’t feel the same, I think you should find a new one. You shouldn’t be at low normal-range levels of testosterone on TRT, you should be at 1000-1200. You should be at optimal levels, feeling fantastic. That’s the whole point of anti-aging medicine.

Just my opinion man. I wanna see guys feeling the best that they possibly can and it frustrates me when I read so many posts of guys having bad information or bad doctors.

You're approaching this with the wrong mindset. We don't chase numbers in TRT, we address issues. Many don't feel great with numbers in the 1000+ range and total test is only a small piece of the puzzle. Free test is what makes us feel good and we control that with lowered SHBG, which often is associated with gut health. We also need to keep e2 in check along with it. It's not as easy as just ramping up test levels and then all of a sudden you feel amazing. There is also the matter of correlation with neurotransmitters when it comes to mood, energy, motivation, libido, etc..

 

[GreenMachineX]

Kinda off topic .. kinda not ... but does crashing estrogen cause hairloss or a huge hair shed in men? I am still doing my research on how the hormones interact (my bloodwork two weeks ago showed low E and low T) ... and most of my googling leads me to women and pregnacy and how low E causes a big loss of hair density

i am assuming this could happen to guys too? anyone witnessed this or had this happen to them?

No issue with hair loss in relation to low e2, but lost tons of hair when folate deficient.

 

[Zvch]

You're approaching this with the wrong mindset. We don't chase numbers in TRT, we address issues. Many don't feel great with numbers in the 1000+ range and total test is only a small piece of the puzzle. Free test is what makes us feel good and we control that with lowered SHBG, which often is associated with gut health. We also need to keep e2 in check along with it. It's not as easy as just ramping up test levels and then all of a sudden you feel amazing. There is also the matter of correlation with neurotransmitters when it comes to mood, energy, motivation, libido, etc..

I’m aware. I’m on TRT.

His issue was that he felt like **** due to crashing estrogen which I’ve done a couple times. The quickest way to address that issue is extra estrogen conversion. An extra 100mg and boom, you’re feeling better in a matter of days. I’m not really sure what the problem with suggesting that is. A good doctor who is treating issues and not numbers would suggest the same.

An extra 100mg one week isn’t enough to bring e2 levels from in the basement to through the roof and it’s not enough to raise Hemoglobin or Hematocrit in one week.

 

[anton3196]

Kinda off topic .. kinda not ... but does crashing estrogen cause hairloss or a huge hair shed in men? I am still doing my research on how the hormones interact (my bloodwork two weeks ago showed low E and low T) ... and most of my googling leads me to women and pregnacy and how low E causes a big loss of hair density

i am assuming this could happen to guys too? anyone witnessed this or had this happen to them?

when I crashed my e2 my hair became very brittle and messed up.. guy I know crashed e2 and has major hair loss going on so it's possible for some people.