HEMATOCRIT UPDATE WTF

Punkrocker

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omfg guys! Everything in this little YouTube clip goes against everything I thought about hematocrit on TRT. have I been freaking out for no reason at all??? EVERYONE WATCH THIS CLIP NOW!!!!

https://youtu.be/mH-J5kXU-jQ

OPINIONS WANTED !!!!!!!
 
B5150

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Doesn't mean it's correct.

Quantify high? Not once!

So what is causing the stokes and heart attacks for people with elevated Hemaglobin and hematocrit from testosterone?
 
Punkrocker

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Quantify high? Not once!

So what is causing the stokes and heart attacks for people with elevated Hemaglobin and hamtocrit from testosterone?
What strokes? Where is the evidence!
 
Nac

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Dr. Rouzier's paper was discussed by Crisler, Saya and Vergel about a year ago on facebook. Cliffs: Rouzier is going a bit too extreme with his claims. This is a quote from Saya:

I've read through his entire lecture and sources a couple months ago, actually have it downloaded on my PC (but thanks for the assumption Jay Campbell ) and didn't find it compelling enough to allow patients to walk around for the rest of their lives with a TREATMENT INDUCED secondary erythrocytosis caused by a treatment with my name on it (let's be clear this is NOT a physiologic erythrocytosis such as patients living at high altitude....it is iatrogenic)...though he physiology is similar, the ethics are much different. I am semi-comfortable with HCT up to 52-53, particularly for folks at high altitudes without other cardiac risk factors, but above that I'm not allowing longterm.

Most of Rouzier's lecture was making the rightful distinction between polycythemia vs erythrocytosis (there IS a meaningful difference) and dispelling some of the "cardiac risk" myth (atherosclerosis, thrombosis) associated with TRT. These aren't the risks I necessarily concern myself with when encountering erythrocytosis. I'm more concerned with the LONGTERM consequences of increases blood viscosity, increased BP, LVH, increased shear forces on arterial wall, etc
This thread at excelmale discusses it:

https://www.excelmale.com/showthread.php?9772-New-Data-On-Why-Some-Men-Don’t-Need-Phlebotomy-w-Dr-John-Crisler

One study/review:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2817018/

Again, cliffs: dont take Rouziers blanket dismissal of phlebotomy as a be-all-end-all.
 
Mountain Man

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Dr John Crisler did a podcast with Jay Campbell and stated he also thinks it it is not needed. My clinic in Boston is Dr. Abraham Morgantaler’s clinic and I met with him and asked him about this. He said he wouldn’t worry about it until HCT was at 55,and even then he would look at the individual and whether or not they are symptomatic. Morgantaler is the guy whose research has changed views on a lot of the alleged dangers of TRT.

What was your HCT before you started TRT? I was at 46 before getting on, probably because I have been working out consistently since 1967. I ran 60 miles per week for over a decade in the mids 1970s to the 1980s. This can also raise HCT. My hematocrit is at 49 now, many would think it’s getting high, but it is only up 3 points. Morgantaler’s opinion, and I agree with it, is that too many clinics micromanage the whole process, adding HCG, AI, and phlebotomy too soon. I wonder if doctors do this to make money. Testosterone cypionate is very cheap and I think that’s why so many doctors start you with gels, HCG, and AI. Why do this if a guy is not symptomatic? Money and profit maybe?

And, as far as HCG is concerned, guys are told that it is needed so testicles don’t shrink. I’ve been on TRT for two years and the shrinkage is minimal. In fact, I never mentioned it as a potential side effect to my wife and she has never noticed any change. Trust me, after 31years she has become very familiar with how they look.
 
Punkrocker

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Dr John Crisler did a podcast with Jay Campbell and stated he also thinks it it is not needed. My clinic in Boston is Dr. Abraham Morgantaler’s clinic and I met with him and asked him about this. He said he wouldn’t worry about it until HCT was at 55,and even then he would look at the individual and whether or not they are symptomatic. Morgantaler is the guy whose research has changed views on a lot of the alleged dangers of TRT.

What was your HCT before you started TRT? I was at 46 before getting on, probably because I have been working out consistently since 1967. I ran 60 miles per week for over a decade in the mids 1970s to the 1980s. This can also raise HCT. My hematocrit is at 49 now, many would think it’s getting high, but it is only up 3 points. Morgantaler’s opinion, and I agree with it, is that too many clinics micromanage the whole process, adding HCG, AI, and phlebotomy too soon. I wonder if doctors do this to make money. Testosterone cypionate is very cheap and I think that’s why so many doctors start you with gels, HCG, and AI. Why do this if a guy is not symptomatic? Money and profit maybe?

And, as far as HCG is concerned, guys are told that it is needed so testicles don’t shrink. I’ve been on TRT for two years and the shrinkage is minimal. In fact, I never mentioned it as a potential side effect to my wife and she has never noticed any change. Trust me, after 31years she has become very familiar with how they look.
Ok well that makes me feel better. So here's my current situation. After donating blood in January, I got a CBC done after the donation to see how much my hct had dropped. When tested at the red Cross my hemoglobin was 19.3!!!! Anyways after I donated my levels dropped down to a hemoglobin of 16.1 and a hematocrit of 46%! Not bad! now fast forward to February 26th which is approximately one month later and I visited my doctor and told her that I plan on using anabolics this year and I want full bloods to keep track of what I am doing to myself. CBC, cholesterol thyroid etc.... So I get the results back of my CBC. Hemoglobin 17.1 hematocrit 48%. That's a big difference HOWEVER, when I got blood work in January it was on a Saturday morning when I had the day off and was decently hydrated where as in February I came to the doctor after work chasing a trash truck all day and probably not getting in enough water so I'm going to assume that my levels are slightly elevated due to dehydration. Anyways this Sunday I have an appointment to donate at the red Cross again but my ferretin is 33 rannge is like 22-200something and I don't wanna crash my ferretin so I think im gonna cancel. What do you guys think
 
kenpoengineer

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Cancel. You are taking iron supplements, right?
 
Punkrocker

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Cancel. You are taking iron supplements, right?
No I'm not, but I eat 3-9 whole eggs every day, 1-2 giant bags of big leafy dark greens and a half a pound to a pound of red meat daily
 
Punkrocker

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How high is your hematocrit kenpoengineer
 
justhere4comm

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Subb'd..
 
kenpoengineer

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How high is your hematocrit kenpoengineer
Mine climbed to 52 and I donated a month ago. The ferritin level is still only 46 (original was 147 before I over donated 2 years ago). I’m taking 30 mg iron chelate and 15 mg heme iron a day plus beef, eggs spinach.
 
Mountain Man

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Ok well that makes me feel better. So here's my current situation. After donating blood in January, I got a CBC done after the donation to see how much my hct had dropped. When tested at the red Cross my hemoglobin was 19.3!!!! Anyways after I donated my levels dropped down to a hemoglobin of 16.1 and a hematocrit of 46%! Not bad! now fast forward to February 26th which is approximately one month later and I visited my doctor and told her that I plan on using anabolics this year and I want full bloods to keep track of what I am doing to myself. CBC, cholesterol thyroid etc.... So I get the results back of my CBC. Hemoglobin 17.1 hematocrit 48%. That's a big difference HOWEVER, when I got blood work in January it was on a Saturday morning when I had the day off and was decently hydrated where as in February I came to the doctor after work chasing a trash truck all day and probably not getting in enough water so I'm going to assume that my levels are slightly elevated due to dehydration. Anyways this Sunday I have an appointment to donate at the red Cross again but my ferretin is 33 rannge is like 22-200something and I don't wanna crash my ferretin so I think im gonna cancel. What do you guys think
Your numbers are fine. You, and others are way over reacting. There are many flawed studies that Morgantaler has exposed due to flawed research. Most of the studies that link TRT to heart attack’s were done with unhealthy men over age 65. Of course they were prone to heart attacks.
 
B5150

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Dr John Crisler did a podcast with Jay Campbell and stated he also thinks it it is not needed. My clinic in Boston is Dr. Abraham Morgantaler’s clinic and I met with him and asked him about this. He said he wouldn’t worry about it until HCT was at 55,and even then he would look at the individual and whether or not they are symptomatic. Morgantaler is the guy whose research has changed views on a lot of the alleged dangers of TRT.

What was your HCT before you started TRT? I was at 46 before getting on, probably because I have been working out consistently since 1967. I ran 60 miles per week for over a decade in the mids 1970s to the 1980s. This can also raise HCT. My hematocrit is at 49 now, many would think it’s getting high, but it is only up 3 points. Morgantaler’s opinion, and I agree with it, is that too many clinics micromanage the whole process, adding HCG, AI, and phlebotomy too soon. I wonder if doctors do this to make money. Testosterone cypionate is very cheap and I think that’s why so many doctors start you with gels, HCG, and AI. Why do this if a guy is not symptomatic? Money and profit maybe?

And, as far as HCG is concerned, guys are told that it is needed so testicles don’t shrink. I’ve been on TRT for two years and the shrinkage is minimal. In fact, I never mentioned it as a potential side effect to my wife and she has never noticed any change. Trust me, after 31years she has become very familiar with how they look.
Years ago we had him a guest mod/rep when our TRT forum launched.
 
kenpoengineer

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Your numbers are fine. You, and others are way over reacting. There are many flawed studies that Morgantaler has exposed due to flawed research. Most of the studies that link TRT to heart attack’s were done with unhealthy men over age 65. Of course they were prone to heart attacks.
Love Morgentaler. So you know, when my hematocrit was at 52, the BP climbed from 117/67 to 133/82. I use both hematocrit AND BP as my indicator to donate.
 
Nac

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Love Morgentaler. So you know, when my hematocrit was at 52, the BP climbed from 117/67 to 133/82. I use both hematocrit AND BP as my indicator to donate.
Thats right.

"Up to 55 is fine" is not very helpful as a generalisation. You should be taking BP and platelets and how you feel into account.

For these reasons (and others) Saya disagrees with Crisler and "55".
 
Nac

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Most of the studies that link TRT to heart attack’s were done with unhealthy men over age 65. Of course they were prone to heart attacks.
That in itself doesnt necessarily make those studies irrelevant to our demographic. Im sure there are guys on "trt" who have unhealthy or at-risk physiological markers.

Point is, I think a reasonable take-away from all the expert discussion on this topic is that absolutes are unhelpful ("donate IMMEDIATELY when hcrit hits 50!!" ..."youre fine up til 55!!"), and that context and other contributing factors are key.
 
justhere4comm

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I don't know, I kind of like it on the thick and sticky side. Oh wait, we're talking about blood... never mind.

Moving on...
 
Mountain Man

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That in itself doesnt necessarily make those studies irrelevant to our demographic. Im sure there are guys on "trt" who have unhealthy or at-risk physiological markers.

Point is, I think a reasonable take-away from all the expert discussion on this topic is that absolutes are unhelpful ("donate IMMEDIATELY when hcrit hits 50!!" ..."youre fine up til 55!!"), and that context and other contributing factors are key.
Agree here. If you are not fit and not working out then, of course there may be a need to donate blood. And BP should always be considered.

With a lot of this research the issue is that correlation does not mean causation. Naturally, because I go to Morgantaler’s clinic, I read what he has written and believe what he preaches. He charges top dollar for his personal patients, but occasionally a regular client like me sees him when someone is out. I asked him about some of my numbers that were what I thought was a little high like hematocrit. That was a direct quote, but it was about me after he took my BP, which was 120/80.

This is a great thread.
 
Punkrocker

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Ok so I called the red Cross and cancelled my appointment...FOR NOW! in the meantime I have a hemoglobin photometer that I will setup in my living room tommorow afternoon once I am well hydrated and do a few finger pricks and test my hemoglobin levels from home to see where I'm at and then take it from there. I really hate that donating blood depletes ferretin stores. This is so annoying and stressful
 
Nac

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Agree here. If you are not fit and not working out then, of course there may be a need to donate blood. And BP should always be considered.

With a lot of this research the issue is that correlation does not mean causation. Naturally, because I go to Morgantaler’s clinic, I read what he has written and believe what he preaches. He charges top dollar for his personal patients, but occasionally a regular client like me sees him when someone is out. I asked him about some of my numbers that were what I thought was a little high like hematocrit. That was a direct quote, but it was about me after he took my BP, which was 120/80.
Yeah this illustrates a point about forums like this one, as opposed to strictly TRT focused ones. Lots of guys here will cycle/blast supraphysiological doses of test and other AAS. They will also tend to do this largely unmonitored.

Given this, I see the merit of erring on the side of caution and falling in with Dr. Saya: if hcrit reaches low 50's, seriously consider donating. Dont wait til it gets to mid-50's. This is prolly most important prior to a blast.
 
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kenpoengineer

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Well, they screwed me. Guess I'm having a steak frappe tonight
Not necessarily. Let’s see how fast your ferritin and iron recovers. Maybe I’m the weird one since it’s been almost 2 years of iron supplements and my ferritin is still low.
 
B5150

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The Red Cross will say anything and everything to get you in the door to donate blood. They make a fortune off selling the blood to patients with insurance. Frequent donation, contributes to crashing iron and ferritin stores and they only test hemoglobin.

https://transfusionnews.com/2016/11/02/blood-donation-intervals-should-be-extended-to-180-days-to-avoid-iron-deficiency/
Regardless an informed and educated donor would know better.

The used to just check iron...
 
Punkrocker

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Regardless an informed and educated donor would know better.

The used to just check iron...
It's been 3 hours since my donation. Not feeling anemic so far...don't know how long it takes to kick in. I hope my iron rebuilds. Anyways this Friday I'm gonna see a cardiologist for a final check on my heart palpitations (every test says I'm normal) and if he also says not to worry then I'm in the clear. As far as my iron goes, if I start to feel sluggish, I'm sure 1,000mg of test will perk me right up :D
 
kenpoengineer

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You aren’t going to feel anemic until to lift. You’ll feel like every weight is heavier and your endurance will be low. An hour workout feels like three.
 
Punkrocker

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You aren’t going to feel anemic until to lift. You’ll feel like every weight is heavier and your endurance will be low. An hour workout feels like three.
I am going to assume that anabolic steroids could assist with this issue?
 
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Don’t know as I’m on only TRT.
Ah ok. Well I know a bodybuilder at my gym who's absolutely enormous. I asked him about his hematocrit levels because he is on all kinds of gear and he told me that actually he is anemic!!! And I asked him how the hell is that possible. Turns out the guy has some horrible hemmorhoid that bleeds so much it made him anemic lol

Point is that he's still jacked and throwing around some serious weights
 
B5150

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Ah ok. Well I know a bodybuilder at my gym who's absolutely enormous. I asked him about his hematocrit levels because he is on all kinds of gear and he told me that actually he is anemic!!! And I asked him how the hell is that possible. Turns out the guy has some horrible hemmorhoid that bleeds so much it made him anemic lol

Point is that he's still jacked and throwing around some serious weights
yeah...the hypertension does that...lol
 
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It's been 3 hours since my donation. Not feeling anemic so far...don't know how long it takes to kick in. I hope my iron rebuilds. Anyways this Friday I'm gonna see a cardiologist for a final check on my heart palpitations (every test says I'm normal) and if he also says not to worry then I'm in the clear. As far as my iron goes, if I start to feel sluggish, I'm sure 1,000mg of test will perk me right up :D
Fwiw i donated double red on 3/21 with a hemoglobin of 16.6 and am feeling the the heart palpatations (pvc). Ive always been ferretin low once i started donating. I hate constipation from the iron....!!!
 
Punkrocker

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Fwiw i donated double red on 3/21 with a hemoglobin of 16.6 and am feeling the the heart palpatations (pvc). Ive always been ferretin low once i started donating. I hate constipation from the iron....!!!
Omg you get palpitations too!!!! **** man. You don't think it's from donating do you???
 
Punkrocker

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Holy crap!!!!!! What do I do now!?!?!
Waitttttt a minute. After reading this they were talking about people who had a hemoglobin of 4 and a hematocrit of like 16%! I'm not even close to that! I just have lowish ferretin
 
B5150

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For God's sake dude! You are bordering ocd and add....

You have low ferretin. You need iron. If you keep donating you keep depleting your iron.

Do a search on symptoms of anemia - irregular heart beat rate....

Get a grip....stop donating start taking iron stop creating new threads on the same topic from another YouTube video....

Not pissed just excited :D
 
Punkrocker

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For God's sake dude! You are bordering ocd and add....

You have low ferretin. You need iron. If you keep donating you keep depleting your iron.

Do a search on symptoms of anemia - irregular heart beat rate....

Get a grip....stop donating start taking iron stop creating new threads on the same topic from another YouTube video....

Not pissed just excited :D
I'm making steak and spinach as we speak :)

And yes I am mentally unstable that is certain!
 
Punkrocker

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Waitttttt a minute!!!!! kenpoengineer do you get heart palpitations!?!? Your ferritin is crashed! Well!? Do ya!??!
 
81dcs

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I'm making steak and spinach as we speak :)

And yes I am mentally unstable that is certain!
Its cool dawg im unstable also. I got cha back. Hey 1 day and 1 thread at a time huh? I doubt AM's server space is gonna run out n r time soon.
 
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Ive actually followed all ya pages about this and im just speaking of my novice self here but ive learned quite a bit so, Thank You, man!!!!
 
Punkrocker

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Ive actually followed all ya pages about this and im just speaking of my novice self here but ive learned quite a bit so, Thank You, man!!!!
Honestly bro I feel like the whole hematocrit thing isn't mentioned enough and it should be spoken about often because you mess up with this and BAM! DEAD! Tru story
 
81dcs

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Honestly bro I feel like the whole hematocrit thing isn't mentioned enough and it should be spoken about often because you mess up with this and BAM! DEAD! Tru story
Following your stuff has had me actually research my stuff and ive come to notice my hemoglobin (I know off subject of hemocrit) is high as is my hemocrit and I just left doctor with orders to schedule some more blood work because it's prolly high sugar issues. So yes your thread has pushed me forward to get myself in check and also learned something along the way so again sir I thank you.
 
Punkrocker

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Following your stuff has had me actually research my stuff and ive come to notice my hemoglobin (I know off subject of hemocrit) is high as is my hemocrit and I just left doctor with orders to schedule some more blood work because it's prolly high sugar issues. So yes your thread has pushed me forward to get myself in check and also learned something along the way so again sir I thank you.
Hell yeah bro! I'm glad my psycotic hypochondria ended up actually helping someone! It's ok to worry, just try not to be obsessed like I get. Gotta drink some tea and mellow out haha. Stay safe brother and I am happy to hear that I've helped you
 
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Hell yeah bro! I'm glad my psycotic hypochondria ended up actually helping someone! It's ok to worry, just try not to be obsessed like I get. Gotta drink some tea and mellow out haha. Stay safe brother and I am happy to hear that I've helped you
scoops of l-theanine...helps me with the anxiety when it happens...

Btw...caffeine HUGE trigger for me when im low ferretin
 
Punkrocker

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scoops of l-theanine...helps me with the anxiety when it happens...

Btw...caffeine HUGE trigger for me wgen im low ferretin
I also take l theanine LOL

Now about the caffiene! Causes palpitations??? I always get them in the morning after my coffee
 
kenpoengineer

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Waitttttt a minute!!!!! kenpoengineer do you get heart palpitations!?!? Your ferritin is crashed! Well!? Do ya!??!
Yes sir. Testosterone also causes heart palpitations. No big deal.
 
justhere4comm

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I'm a stable genius.
 

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