Confusing Symptoms/Side Effects

GreenMachineX

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So for about 6 months, I've been experiencing increased heart rate (10-20 BPM faster than my normal 60) only at night, or if I wake up in the middle of the night or early morning. It's accompanied by a weird fluttering in my chest that I've been calling palpitations but I don't really know how to describe it. I've had an echocardiogram and wore a heart monitor for a week and everything seemed to be normal.

Has anyone else experienced this or something similar? I'm thinking it has to do with low E2 (was just a 5 on sensitive essay 2 weeks ago) but I haven't taken any anastrozole in over a week and while the joint pain has gone away, brain fog and anxiety has increased as well as these symptoms. It occurs when it wants to whether I've taken the aromatase inhibitor or not.

Could it be my testosterone being too high? I've had labs ranging from 700-1200 with free test always right at the top of range.

Last night was really bad so I'll be getting my E2 pulled in the next day or too.

Anyone have any thoughts or anything similar?
 
Juicedeez utz

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You had your RBC, hematocrit and hemoglobin levels checked?
 
kenpoengineer

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This ^^^^. Plus, how much Anastrozole are you dosing. And, as you know, your estradiol level is crashed big time.
 
Juicedeez utz

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If it's not hormonal, which it sounds like it's not, it could be anxiety. You take anything else?
 
GreenMachineX

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If it's not hormonal, which it sounds like it's not, it could be anxiety. You take anything else?
I guess it could be anxiety, except my pulse will be elevated with the flutters before I even feel anxious. I could feel fine. And it only happens at night.
I take a lot of stuff, rhodiola, ashwagandha, maca, citrulline, agmatine, taurine, forskolin, mct oil, zma, and a multi with extra D and C.
 
Juicedeez utz

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To be honest I had the same sort of thing when I was having withdrawals from benzos. Like an extra beat that skips across your chest and actually hurts? Why not try nocking all your supps on the head for a week, see if it helps? If not back to the drawing board!
 
GreenMachineX

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To be honest I had the same sort of thing when I was having withdrawals from benzos. Like an extra beat that skips across your chest and actually hurts? Why not try nocking all your supps on the head for a week, see if it helps? If not back to the drawing board!
I've been through benzo withdrawal too, and that was a nightmare! This isn't anything like that, but occasional chest pain does occur.

Regarding the supplements, my stack hasn't changed much in a year so I doubt it's that, except for forskolin which I guess could be a possibility. This morning was my last dose of the bottle and I've been using that for 4 months. I was also using spirulina but I've been off that a few days already. Everything else has been constant for a long time.

I'm still gonna get that E2 pulled in the next day or so to see how much it's come back up and maybe there's a correlation there, or maybe it'll go away as the forskolin leaves my system. If neither of those, I'll stop everything except my blood pressure meds and see what happens.
 
Juicedeez utz

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I've been through benzo withdrawal too, and that was a nightmare! This isn't anything like that, but occasional chest pain does occur.

Regarding the supplements, my stack hasn't changed much in a year so I doubt it's that, except for forskolin which I guess could be a possibility. This morning was my last dose of the bottle and I've been using that for 4 months. I was also using spirulina but I've been off that a few days already. Everything else has been constant for a long time.

I'm still gonna get that E2 pulled in the next day or so to see how much it's come back up and maybe there's a correlation there, or maybe it'll go away as the forskolin leaves my system. If neither of those, I'll stop everything except my blood pressure meds and see what happens.
Yeah sounds like a plan :)
 
GreenMachineX

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Another thought, I've read a few reports of mct oil causing some of these symptoms so I'll be stopping that as well. We'll see what happens.
 
skinnybones

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Maybe try giving some blood? Create some new red blood cells to get more oxygen in there.
Just a suggestion bro good luck
 
trtdoc

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Typically this is due to estradiol, can be deficient or elevated. Typically an elevated e2 can cause arrhythmia. Get e2 checked

Dr b
 
GreenMachineX

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Maybe try giving some blood? Create some new red blood cells to get more oxygen in there.
Just a suggestion bro good luck
I've been down the blood donation path and it ended me being iron deficient. I'm gonna wait for another CBC before I do that again. Thanks though.

Typically this is due to estradiol, can be deficient or elevated. Typically an elevated e2 can cause arrhythmia. Get e2 checked

Dr b
Getting it pulled today after work!
 

Kazmoney

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Getting it pulled today after work![/QUOTE]
Let us know what the results are please :). Sounds like when my estro and test were both high.
 
GreenMachineX

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Getting it pulled today after work!
Let us know what the results are please :). Sounds like when my estro and test were both high.
What's even more confusing is some of these symptoms aren't even daily. No increased heart rate or palpitations last night, no anxiety this morning, no red face, no night sweats. But tonight, who knows what'll happen.

Did you have the increased heart rate only at night as well?

Part of me thinks it's actually testosterone levels being too high and maybe I get those symptoms when my shot peaks. Just theorizing here. I've thought about also perhaps the same dose of testosterone I've used in the past (120mg per week) might hit me harder now that I'm 40 lb lighter and don't need nearly as much.
 

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It did seem that it was when I would get in bed trying to fall asleep I was noticing heart rate and couldn't shut myself off to fall asleep. So I thought I would try taking my AI(arimidex) right when I layed down or right before bed and sure enough 1-2 hours later I had no issue falling asleep. Estrogen has been a nightmare for me to control on trt. Always thinking it's high or no maybe it's low. So by no means take anything I say as good advice.
 
GreenMachineX

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It did seem that it was when I would get in bed trying to fall asleep I was noticing heart rate and couldn't shut myself off to fall asleep. So I thought I would try taking my AI(arimidex) right when I layed down or right before bed and sure enough 1-2 hours later I had no issue falling asleep. Estrogen has been a nightmare for me to control on trt. Always thinking it's high or no maybe it's low. So by no means take anything I say as good advice.
lol
I'm having the same problem. Are you tracking it with blood work?
 

Kazmoney

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lol
I'm having the same problem. Are you tracking it with blood work?
I've had blood work done twice now recently. Both times my estro has come back very low 5 then 10. I would have bet my life I had high estrogen both times. I was very moody, boated, brain fog etc. So then I was wondering if I was taking my AI to close to getting the blood work and that was causing the low reading. Now I'm just not sure what to do lol
 
kenpoengineer

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I've had blood work done twice now recently. Both times my estro has come back very low 5 then 10. I would have bet my life I had high estrogen both times. I was very moody, boated, brain fog etc. So then I was wondering if I was taking my AI to close to getting the blood work and that was causing the low reading. Now I'm just not sure what to do lol
Start from the beginning please. What is your protocol? Are you obese? Did you have thyroid checked? What is your HH, TT, FT?
 
GreenMachineX

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I've had blood work done twice now recently. Both times my estro has come back very low 5 then 10. I would have bet my life I had high estrogen both times. I was very moody, boated, brain fog etc. So then I was wondering if I was taking my AI to close to getting the blood work and that was causing the low reading. Now I'm just not sure what to do lol
You probably just need to do what I'm doing, stop the AI and get bloods every couple weeks to see what's happening. Discountedlabs dot com is a really good price for total and free test and sensitive e2 test. I want to take a low dose of AI so bad though lol.
 

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IMG_0463.PNG


150mg a week test e split between 2 shots. Took a screen shot of my recent blood work hopefully it loads.
 

Kazmoney

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You probably just need to do what I'm doing, stop the AI and get bloods every couple weeks to see what's happening. Discountedlabs dot com is a really good price for total and free test and sensitive e2 test. I want to take a low dose of AI so bad though lol.
Ya I think you are right about just laying off the AI for awhile. Its so hard because the symptoms can be so similar.
 
GreenMachineX

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How much AI and which are you taking?
 

Kazmoney

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How much AI and which are you taking?
I've been all over the place with AIs. I know that's part of the problem.. I've taken arimidex, aromasin, and arimistane(not all at once). I was taking 1mg of adex a day and still thought I had high estrogen. So like you said it's probably best if I just stay off for awhile then re test.
 
trtdoc

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Yes, stay off for at least 4-5 weeks then re-test. Your bordering deficient on e2, enough as to where you can become symptomatic at those current levels.

Dr. B
 
GreenMachineX

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I've been all over the place with AIs. I know that's part of the problem.. I've taken arimidex, aromasin, and arimistane(not all at once). I was taking 1mg of adex a day and still thought I had high estrogen. So like you said it's probably best if I just stay off for awhile then re test.
Wow that's a lot! Most of the recommendations are for like .25mg once or twice a week (same time as injections). Even .25mg anastrozole once a week was too much for me. if my labs determine I even truly need an AI, I'm going to make a solution 1mg/2mL of propylene glycol so I can dose .1mg once or twice a week.
 
kenpoengineer

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Yes, stay off for at least 4-5 weeks then re-test. Your bordering deficient on e2, enough as to where you can become symptomatic at those current levels.

Dr. B
This^^^^.
 
kenpoengineer

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Wow that's a lot! Most of the recommendations are for like .25mg once or twice a week (same time as injections). Even .25mg anastrozole once a week was too much for me. if my labs determine I even truly need an AI, I'm going to make a solution 1mg/2mL of propylene glycol so I can dose .1mg once or twice a week.
Not propylene glycol, you mean ethanol?
 
kenpoengineer

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I did mean PG, why not?
I'm a recovering addict/alcoholic, so buying everclear or whatever is a no-go.
Understand. I used to work at a chemical plant that makes PG. I saw what it did to gasket material so there is no way I'd put that in my body. Just get a pill cutter and quarter the 1 mg tablets. I do this and even cut them to eighths. Takes a little time but better than PG.
 
GreenMachineX

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Understand. I used to work at a chemical plant that makes PG. I saw what it did to gasket material so there is no way I'd put that in my body. Just get a pill cutter and quarter the 1 mg tablets. I do this and even cut them to eighths. Takes a little time but better than PG.
Isn't it on the GRAS list?
I'll get a pill cutter. It's actually possible to cut them in 1/8ths? They're so small...
 
kenpoengineer

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Isn't it on the GRAS list?
I'll get a pill cutter. It's actually possible to cut them in 1/8ths? They're so small...
I always try to eliminate as many chemicals that I ingest or put on my body. The older I get, the more family and friends are getting sick and dying.

Yes, I cut them into quarters using a pill cutter. I further cut them using a razor blade.
 
GreenMachineX

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Got my e2 sensitive results.
15.7 (8.0-35.0) pg/nL

Still a bit low. Glad I waited to take the anastrozole. I'll be doing labs again soon, but e2 sensitive not for a couple more weeks. My doctor only ordered the regular estradiol with total and free test, CBC, DHEA-S, IGF-1 and thyroid which I'll have pulled Wednesday.
 

Kazmoney

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Got my e2 sensitive results.
15.7 (8.0-35.0) pg/nL

Still a bit low. Glad I waited to take the anastrozole. I'll be doing labs again soon, but e2 sensitive not for a couple more weeks. My doctor only ordered the regular estradiol with total and free test, CBC, DHEA-S, IGF-1 and thyroid which I'll have pulled Wednesday.
Thank you sharing the results! I also just got my results for e2. I laid off all types of AI for 7 days and my E2 went back up to 27.. apparently all the sides I could have sworn were high e2 symptoms were actually from very low e2.
111FAFD0-5F81-49BD-9702-7FAE9665CA5E.png
 
GreenMachineX

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Thank you sharing the results! I also just got my results for e2. I laid off all types of AI for 7 days and my E2 went back up to 27.. apparently all the sides I could have sworn were high e2 symptoms were actually from very low e2.
View attachment 155476
Same here lol.

Are you gonna hold off on the AI still?
 

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Ya I think I will for now. Some guys would probably consider my e2 levels perfect. Right now I have a sinus infection so it’s impossible to gauge my symptoms and what they are from.
 
GreenMachineX

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Ya I think I will for now. Some guys would probably consider my e2 levels perfect. Right now I have a sinus infection so it’s impossible to gauge my symptoms and what they are from.
Yeah, I'd be perfectly content with that number. If I were you I'd retest in a couple more weeks to make sure it doesn't keep climbing.

Also, all my symptoms are gone. No increased heart rate at night, no palpitations, etc. just occasional very mild anxiety but that could be something else entirely.
 

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Yeah, I'd be perfectly content with that number. If I were you I'd retest in a couple more weeks to make sure it doesn't keep climbing.

Also, all my symptoms are gone. No increased heart rate at night, no palpitations, etc. just occasional very mild anxiety but that could be something else entirely.
Yeah I for sure need to retest in a couple weeks. The symptoms of high and low are so similar to me it’s impossible to gauge without blood work. Very frustrating!! Lol. I’ve also noticed mild anxiety which has to be from e2..
 
The Matrix

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7.6 to 42.6 is not always accurate
Suggest test using range that goes to 35 as gold standard
 
GreenMachineX

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Just to update this:
I’ve been all over the place trying to figure out what’s been causing those chest flutters and anxiety. It’s so by the clock, it’s bizarre. It’s also after eating (or the time frame that matches).

If anyone has seen my Apigenin thread in the supplement section, I believe this has added to the problem of estradiol aromatization and estrogen receptor blocking. I have all the low e2 symptoms and I haven’t taken anastrozole in 3 months.

My most recent labs showed the regular estrogen test at 19 and pregnenolone at <10. I had the sensitive e2 test pulled as well and waiting for those results.

I’m also off all supplements including all vitamins except magnesium and pink salt (for keto) for 5 days. I’ve realized that everything I was taken was masking a lot of symptoms. Random pain everywhere, old injuries hurt, flutters are worse, GERD, no libido, no vascularity, high blood pressure, major health anxiety/panic.

I’ve also gone to the ER twice last weekend because of an overmethylation nightmare. I had no idea what was happening...freezing so cold my legs shook uncontrollably, sweaty palms, chest pain and extreme nausea/heartburn, lightheaded but overstimulated, panic, left arm pain...super scary. Blood pressure hit 170/100.

Now only taking testosterone at 60mg twice a week, losartan 25mg, Naturethroid at 81.25mg (only taking half this week for fear of making anxiety worse), and back on bisoprolol at 2.5mg. BP is down to 140/80 on average, so hopefully my e2 rebounds quickly without any supplements I was taking. My previous stack was:
Maca
Ashwagandha
Rhodiola
LEF Multivitamin 2 per Day
Extra C, D, K2, Magnesium
Digestive Enzymes
Gut Health
Ubiquinol
Fish Oil
L-Citrulline
Theanine
Valerian Root
Taurine
Lemon Balm
Melatonin
Agmatine

I think that’s it.
 
kenpoengineer

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Have you thought about increasing magnesium?
 
GreenMachineX

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Have you thought about increasing magnesium?
I take 400mg of either glycinate or asporotate. How much higher should I try? What’s the safest upper limit?

BP was 130/81 this morning. Getting better!
 
kenpoengineer

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Poliquin recommends:
Most studies show improvements to symptoms from doses of 400 to 500 mg of magnesium a day, with 1,000 mg a day being an upper limit. Start supplementing slowly so that your body (especially your GI tract) can adjust.Jun 17, 2015
 
GreenMachineX

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Poliquin recommends:
Most studies show improvements to symptoms from doses of 400 to 500 mg of magnesium a day, with 1,000 mg a day being an upper limit. Start supplementing slowly so that your body (especially your GI tract) can adjust.Jun 17, 2015
Well, I’ll try 600 I guess now for a while.

Today is the first day in months I haven’t had any chest flutters yet! Still have some anxiety just waiting to rear it’s ugly head hiding just below the surface, but thank God no palpitations yet.
 
GreenMachineX

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So eventually the chest flutters kicked in but it wasn’t that bad today. It’s been far worse. Anxiety has been hell and I wonder if I’m withdrawaling from some of those GABA supplements.

But, that didn’t occur to me until after I thought it’d be a good idea to take 1g of taurine. That knocked me on my rump. Way too strong, felt drunk for 3 hours and still feel it a good bit. As silly as this may be, I’m even concerned about going to sleep, especially because it’s only been 3 days back on the bisoprolol (who wouldve thought that this would’ve been that strong with 2.5mg when I used to combine all kinds of stuff while on 10mg bisoprolol?). I’m gonna stay up until I’m completely sober.
 
GreenMachineX

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That taurine mess eventually wore off but took about 6 hours.

Still figuring things out.

Yesterday, took 200mg of magnesium glycinate and in a few hours, the strange overstimulation and hard to breathe episode started, this time with a headache as well. Oddly, 1/4 tsp sea salt took it away within 30 minutes. That happened a couple times last week as well.

I’ve also pieced together that there was one time that a 500mg dose of agmatine stopped an episode in its tracks as well. My head was so screwed up at the time I wasn’t able to put it together. I’m thinking that the glycine in mag glycinate and in TMG is bad for me. Overstimulation of the NMDA receptors maybe? That also might be why taurine knocked me the hell down on Saturday.

So, either all the extra Methyl b vitamins is bad for me, or NMDA activation, or maybe both. Either way, won’t mess with any of that anymore.

BP is now 120’s over 70’s. Dropping bisoprolol dose to 1.25mg. The dizziness from it is nerve-racking.
 
kenpoengineer

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I wonder if your potassium is low or your sodium/potassium ratio is off?
 
GreenMachineX

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I’ve had electrolytes done a few times last week and everything looked normal at the ER, but that was before starting the bisoprolol which also supposedly holds potassium like losartan which I’m also taking. It’s actually been in the back of my mind to get it pulled again to ensure I don’t have too much potassium now. I keep having pins and needles in my hands but I thought that was from the impingement syndrome in both shoulders. I put a message into my doctor asking if it could be a problem and just waiting for a response.

Why do you think potassium could be low?
 
kenpoengineer

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Electrolytes are the first thing doctor look at for heart issues -flutter. Several older family members had problems involving potassium and sodium imbalances due to medication.
 

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