Stay on TRT or back to Natty

[Cycloman]

I'd love to get your thoughts on this –

I'm nearly 50 years old – and very experienced weightlifter and keep in great shape (generally)

My Natty testosterone levels have been fluctuating over the past five years –as low as 425 Ng/dl to as high as 660 Ng/dl (as of Dec 2015). (Range is 300 -1200)

I ran a cycle of SARMs last spring which crashed my test levels down to under 100 and even after a month of PCT running Nolvadex and waiting another month before bloods - I did not recover: (Test levels were 170.)

My Doctor friend put me on HCG (500 IU Eod) for a month with Arimidex. Just got bloods back and Total T was 962! I feel great - and The increase in testosterone also drastically improved my lipid profile – which had also crashed significantly from that cycle.

I was asking him about coming off – running another SERM such as Clomid and Nolvadex to see if I recover.

He flat out told me I was ****ing crazy – and asked why would I ever want to go back to having fluctuating T levels. In fact, he now wants me to start taking some Androgel – which would jack up the test even more – but he said we can start ratcheting back on the hCG to find an optimal dose of both products that would keep my natural test levels somewhere around the 1000 range

His rationale – was that I was experiencing low T symptoms – even when my testosterone level was in the 600s – all of which now seem to have disappeared – and also – due to my age – they are only going to decline further. I guess I'm pretty fortunate to have a doctor who is up on the stuff – he's actually a progressive cardiologist – and uses testosterone to treat patient to improve overall health, lipid profile – well being etc.

Am I jumping the gun? In any case – I don't know if I can go back now that I've seen the other side. I have to say – life at 900+ testosterone level is pretty freaking good

 

[Br1ck_Sh1thouse]

I'd love to get your thoughts on this –

I'm nearly 50 years old – and very experienced weightlifter and keep in great shape (generally)

My Natty testosterone levels have been fluctuating over the past five years –as low as 425 Ng/dl to as high as 660 Ng/dl (as of Dec 2015). (Range is 300 -1200)

I ran a cycle of SARMs last spring which crashed my test levels down to under 100 and even after a month of PCT running Nolvadex and waiting another month before bloods - I did not recover: (Test levels were 170.)

My Doctor friend put me on HCG (500 IU Eod) for a month with Arimidex. Just got bloods back and Total T was 962! I feel great - and The increase in testosterone also drastically improved my lipid profile – which had also crashed significantly from that cycle.

I was asking him about coming off – running another SERM such as Clomid and Nolvadex to see if I recover.

He flat out told me I was ****ing crazy – and asked why would I ever want to go back to having fluctuating T levels. In fact, he now wants me to start taking some Androgel – which would jack up the test even more – but he said we can start ratcheting back on the hCG to find an optimal dose of both products that would keep my natural test levels somewhere around the 1000 range

His rationale – was that I was experiencing low T symptoms – even when my testosterone level was in the 600s – all of which now seem to have disappeared – and also – due to my age – they are only going to decline further. I guess I'm pretty fortunate to have a doctor who is up on the stuff – he's actually a progressive cardiologist – and uses testosterone to treat patient to improve overall health, lipid profile – well being etc.

Am I jumping the gun? In any case – I don't know if I can go back now that I've seen the other side. I have to say – life at 900+ testosterone level is pretty freaking good

Where is your doctor located? I want him to be my primary!

 

[Cycloman]

Where is your doctor located? I want him to be my primary!

Lol . I know what you mean. I'm thankful as heck. Not sure what your experience with doctors on this subject is but most of them are clueless as hell or won't even talk to you unless you are clinically hypogonadal.

I suppose I shouldn't look this gift horse in the mouth, eh?

 

[kenpoengineer]

I'm 56 and have been on TRT (Testosterone Cypionate and Anastrozole) for 2 years now. At our age it's very hard to recover from the use of SARMs or AAS, but it can be done. With this said, going on TRT is for life and should be considered carefully. For more information and research, go to ExcelMale and PeakTestosterone dot com and the Testosterone Replacement Therapy Discussion FB page.

 

[Sparkss]

I just started TRT (my doc prefers the pellets, so giving that a go). My T levels were 265, and I have only ever been 100% natty (until the start of the TRT).

All great advice from kenpoengineer!

 

[bruno.camilo]

What dosing protocol on Anastrozol are you guys using? engineer Cycloman

 

[Sparkss]

What dosing protocol on Anastrozol are you guys using? KenpoEngineer Cycloman

I was going to ask the same thing, since there was a study about using Anastrozol @ 1mg daily to extend the lifespan of pellet TRT. But my doc did not think it was a good idea (possibly since it added a month+ to my time not needing to pay him for another treatment?

Coadministration of anastrozole sustains therapeutic testosterone levels in hypogonadal men undergoing testosterone pellet insertion.

 

[kenpoengineer]

What dosing protocol on Anastrozol are you guys using? engineer Cycloman

I'm using 160 mg testosterone cypionate split into 80 mg every 3.5 days. I only dose 0.25 mg of anastrozole every 7 days. You really need bloodwork to verify E2 levels to fine tune your dosage.

 

[bad rad]

At Cycloman, a mid 600's Total T looks good on paper but you need to base your decision off of Free T levels. As men get older their Free T tends to drift downward while Total T remains similar to youthful levels. IMO you should get injectable T as the gels aren't all that great. 10g daily took me from 60's naturally to 100's on gel.

 

[Sparkss]

I'm using 160 mg testosterone cypionate split into 80 mg every 3.5 days. I only dose 0.25 mg of anastrozole every 7 days. You really need bloodwork to verify E2 levels to fine tune your dosage.

any sides at that level? Do you ever delve into PHs or other exogenous compounds? and if so, do you up/adjust your arimidex during those runs? Any reason to use arimidex over exestane? (perhaps price?) Thanks!

 

[kenpoengineer]

any sides at that level? Do you ever delve into PHs or other exogenous compounds? and if so, do you up/adjust your arimidex during those runs? Any reason to use arimidex over exestane? (perhaps price?) Thanks!

No sides and E2 is 30, this being my sweet spot.

No other compounds in use.

Anastrozole (Arimidex) is covered by insurance, as is the Test C.

 

[dillface02241]

Same thing happened to me, but i'm 44. My test levels were at 238 and my doctor said I would feel a lot better if I went on TRT. I'm hesitant because it's a lifelong thing at our age.....he doesn't think it'll ever come back. I'm going back in a month and he said if i'm still at that level, I should go on TRT.

One thing, how is your blood pressure when your T is at 962?

 

[bruno.camilo]

I'm using 160 mg testosterone cypionate split into 80 mg every 3.5 days. I only dose 0.25 mg of anastrozole every 7 days. You really need bloodwork to verify E2 levels to fine tune your dosage.

My anastrozol 1mg pills are so small, i cant even cut it into half.

I used once, a protocol 1mg a week, but didnt notice anything beside losing the pain in my nipples lol.

 

[sammpedd88]

My anastrozol 1mg pills are so small, i cant even cut it into half.

I used once, a protocol 1mg a week, but didnt notice anything beside losing the pain in my nipples lol.

To cut them, you need to buy a pill cutter. I cut mine into quarters and take a quarter (.25 mgs arimidex) twice a week on my injection days.

 

[kenpoengineer]

To cut them, you need to buy a pill cutter. I cut mine into quarters and take a quarter (.25 mgs arimidex) twice a week on my injection days.

Same here with using the pill cutter. I read that it's better to dose Anastrozole a day after test injection due to the half life of the Anastrozole and the fact of an estrogen spike occurs about a day after the spike of testosterone from the injection.

 

[bruno.camilo]

Thats great info guys, thx a lot.

 

[B5150]

@OP considering you have increased "endogenous" testosterone and improved lipids even with arimadex (and I'm assuming normal E2) without the need for "exogenous" testosterone I would continue with that protocol.

There are "silent" issues that can arise with exogenous testosterone such as sleep apnea, elevated RBC, hematocrit and hemoglobin which can in turn increase BP.

You're lucky to have this doctor IMHO

 

[Cycloman]

Quick update and sorry for the late reply:

So I recently saw an Endo and am seeing a Urologist tonight for a second opinion and will post back with details.

As for my BP - at the endo office Friday I scored the best blood pressure I've had in 20 years - it was 116/64.

My current dosing is as follows:
.5 mg Adex EOD
250-300 IU HCG EOD (i lowered the dose due to high E2
2 pumps Androgel daily.

Added the Androgel late last week - 5 days in on the new protocol and I feel utterly Amazing!!

 

[Cycloman]

Quick update and sorry for the late reply:

So I recently saw an Endo and am seeing a Urologist tonight for a second opinion and will post back with details.

As for my BP - at the endo office Friday I scored the best blood pressure I've had in 20 years - it was 116/64.

My current dosing is as follows:
.5 mg Adex EOD
250-300 IU HCG EOD (i lowered the dose due to high E2
2 pumps Androgel daily.

Added the Androgel late last week - 5 days in on the new protocol and I feel utterly Amazing!!

By the way - I need to add that the reason for the Adex dose is that my Estradiol came back at 60 - way too high - and this is the result of HCG.

 

[Cycloman]

Wanted to update you after my trip to the doctors:

Saw an Endo and a Urologist to get their perspective. (My TRT was prescribed by my Cardiologist - who is also my best friend from college - to help me recover from a Sarm cycle, but he wants to keep me on and at optimal levels even though I was never clinically deficient).

Endo spent over an hour with me. He said labs look great but wants me to pick either HCG or Androgel and test in two months. Looking at his notes that I received - he stated that he is not committing to long-term therapy and wants to ween me off using Clomid.

Urologist refused to even discuss treatment options because he said he only deals with men who are clinically deficient or have prostrate issues. He checked labs and prostate - all good. Then he said - off the record, he supports my protocols and said that he is going to start himself someday (he's 54) and open a TRT clinic.

Anyway - I'm feeling great - both physically and cognitively - amazing really - but I still struggle with doing this since I do not technically need it (based on prior labs and assuming I can bring T levels up naturally again, which the Endo thinks I can). Cardio buddy said to quit overthinking this and the benefits of optimal T outweigh the risks - so shut up and keep pinning for life.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[kenpoengineer]

Have you decided to go on TRT? If not then A Clomid restart may work to bring you back to your 600 level. Can't comment further until I know what your decision is.

 

[Cycloman]

kenpoengineer - that's my dilemma. I'm undecided. I feel fantastic and bloods are good with high normal T levels. I guess I'm just nervous about the prospects of doing this for the next 30-40 years considering I have normal but t fluctuating T levels (425-660 over the last 2 years - but had symptoms).

 

[kenpoengineer]

kenpoengineer - that's my dilemma. I'm undecided. I feel fantastic and bloods are good with high normal T levels. I guess I'm just nervous about the prospects of doing this for the next 30-40 years considering I have normal but t fluctuating T levels (425-660 over the last 2 years - but had symptoms).

For me it is "quality" of life. If you are totally happy where you are with strength, mental clarity, endurance, sex and physique then hold off. Also, if you are married to a lady that is starting menopause and there is no intimacy required anymore then hold off.

But, if not then go for it full on with injections and changes in lifestyle to make yourself the "best" you can be.

Here is a link to testosterone levels vs age:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Levels_Male.aspx

Hope this helps.

 

[justhere4comm]

For me it is "quality" of life. If you are totally happy where you are with strength, mental clarity, endurance, sex and physique then hold off. Also, if you are married to a lady that is starting menopause and there is no intimacy required anymore then hold off.

But, if not then go for it full on with injections and changes in lifestyle to make yourself the "best" you can be.

Here is a link to testosterone levels vs age:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Levels_Male.aspx

Hope this helps.

Great info and advice.

 

[Cycloman]

kenpoengineer- I meant to thank you for that info. I've started a Clomid restart to once and for all see how I end up naturally. I'm only dosing 25 mg EOD since I've read studies that this amount can be effective. Also doing .25 mg Adex EOD. I'm 2 weeks in and experience sides of restlessness and insomnia. (I also was taking some Nolvadex here and there so maybe it's the combination.). Either way - I feel like ****. Going to get bloods next week and if LH hasn't budged and T is tanked then I may have my answer.

 

[amdd1124]

I am going to be 47 in two weeks and I struggled with low T for years. I finally found an endocrinologist willing to try TRT last year. I've been on Testosterone Cypionate for about a year now and it's been amazing. I'm on a fairly low dose (.75 ml per week) but my numbers are good. I'm around 850-900, whereas a full 1 ml dose had me over 1500. Just my opinion but I wouldn't change anything. I can't imagine going back to life without it. I've learned that having low T is awful and NOTHING sold over the counter at GNC or wherever works at all. Stay the course brother.

 

[sammpedd88]

kenpoengineer- I meant to thank you for that info. I've started a Clomid restart to once and for all see how I end up naturally. I'm only dosing 25 mg EOD since I've read studies that this amount can be effective. Also doing .25 mg Adex EOD. I'm 2 weeks in and experience sides of restlessness and insomnia. (I also was taking some Nolvadex here and there so maybe it's the combination.). Either way - I feel like ****. Going to get bloods next week and if LH hasn't budged and T is tanked then I may have my answer.

.25 mgs EOD is a lot. You may want to get some bloods done. You could possibly be crushing your E2. I inject 50 mgs of test cyp twice a week and take .25 mgs of arimidex with the injections. Keeps my E2 between 19-22.

 

[Cycloman]

.25 mgs EOD is a lot. You may want to get some bloods done. You could possibly be crushing your E2. I inject 50 mgs of test cyp twice a week and take .25 mgs of arimidex with the injections. Keeps my E2 between 19-22.

Thanks for the advice. Could have been why I was having some anxiety - crushing E2. I was actually taking .5 EOD since my E was so high and may have shot through the sweet spot.

I cut way back and am just dosing Clomid 25 mg EOD.

One big change I noticed was all of my muscle and joint pains are back - yet while on the supplemental T, they pretty much disappeared.

Getting bloods drawn this week and also seeing a TRT specialist to get his opinion

Thanks!

 

[kenpoengineer]

With that high dose of arimidex, I would expect your E2 to crash. Joint pain and creaking is a symptom of low E2.

 

[bruno.camilo]

In my experience clomid at 50 mg is much more effective. I realize that i keep more muscle mass. But it i sux, while on TRT u have much more muscle and thats that.

Arimidex i used last pct 1mg twice a week. I think its too much but i didnt have any bad sides of low estrogen.

 

[timmy26]

I'm trying to find a legit source to get a hold for a AI like Arimidex or Nolvadex can anyone help

 

[Cycloman]

Well bros – I just got my blood back after doing 4 weeks of Clomid at 25 mg every other day and my total Test was 900 Ng/dl - nearly as high as when I was running HCG with Androgel. It goes to show that you really don't need a lot of Serms to do the job - I don't know if results differ for others. I did quite a bit of research online, field reports, speaking to doctors and even found a study confirming that this was a very effective dose.
I also used .25mg arimidex once per week - I'm waiting to get my E2 results. If that is still high (it was from the HCG despite using Arimidex) I'll run some Aromasin to knock it down.

I still need to test bloods to see how well I keep my test levels - since these results were the day after my Clomid PCT and may be jacked for that reason. But this is encouraging and my LH/Fsh were in mid-range so the pituitary is firing.

Guess I'm not a TRT candidate then so I will just do a cycle or two of SARMs per year and run Clomid for a while and see how things go.

 

[kenpoengineer]

Looks like a successful HPTA restart - using Clomid. Once you stop the Clomid your natural system should maintain testosterone production. When do you stop the Clomid?

 

[Cycloman]

I was tapering the dose - so bloods were taken right after dosing every other day - then I did 25 mg every 3rd or 4th day for another two weeks - last dose was last night.

 

[sammpedd88]

I was tapering the dose - so bloods were taken right after dosing every day - then I did 25 mg every 3rd day for another two weeks last dose was last night.

Keep us posted on your progress. Congrats on the restart

 

[GreekTheBrick]

Well bros – I just got my blood back after doing 4 weeks of Clomid at 25 mg every other day and my total Test was 900 Ng/dl - nearly as high as when I was running HCG with Androgel. It goes to show that you really don't need a lot of Serms to do the job - I don't know if results differ for others. I did quite a bit of research online, field reports, speaking to doctors and even found a study confirming that this was a very effective dose.
I also used .25mg arimidex once per week - I'm waiting to get my E2 results. If that is still high (it was from the HCG despite using Arimidex) I'll run some Aromasin to knock it down.

I still need to test bloods to see how well I keep my test levels - since these results were the day after my Clomid PCT and may be jacked for that reason. But this is encouraging and my LH/Fsh were in mid-range so the pituitary is firing.

Guess I'm not a TRT candidate then so I will just do a cycle or two of SARMs per year and run Clomid for a while and see how things go.

Very good results man. Good job. Have in mind you need at least 30days off clomid to get unbiased blood results

 

[Cycloman]

Very good results man. Good job. Have in mind you need at least 30days off clomid to get unbiased blood results

Thanks for the heads up on that – I postponed my followup blood work until mid January.

 

[Cycloman]

Other bloods came back showing E2 at 50 and DHEA about 200 (lower end of normal)
I plan to up the AI but not sure about the DHEA or how important it is

 

[sammpedd88]

Other bloods came back showing E2 at 50 and DHEA about 200 (lower end of normal)
I plan to up the AI but not sure about the DHEA or how important it is

DHEA and pregnenolone are very important. Read up on them.

 

[Cycloman]

Well brothers, here are my current bloods, after waiting a month and a half after the HPTA restart:

Total Test 437 Ng/dl
Free Test: 75.2 PG/DL (35-155)
Estradiol: 25
LH: 2.7 (1.5-9.3)
SHBG: 38 (10-50)
prolactin 2.7 (1.5-9.3)


Based on the above, I'm likely going to go TRT. No sense trying to mess around with additional restarts or natty Test boosters at 50 years old.

I had two docs already want to put me on it but I kept holding back - not wanting to take it unless I really need it. I think I need it. No major symptoms other than normal middle age crap and I'm even making gains in the gym. But I don't feel nearly as good as I did when my test levels were higher from the exogenous Test, Hcg and/or Clomid.

Any thoughts?

 

[dillface02241]

"TLooks like a successful HPTA restart - using Clomid. Once you stop the Clomid your natural system should maintain testosterone production".

That was not my experience. Once I stopped Clomid, my test dropped significantly and my estradiol went a lot higher.

 

[Cycloman]

I'm now 3 weeks into a TRT regiment (Androgel and just added HCG) and feel fantastic. Not going to try a restart again. Not worth it at my age and why deal with declining levels and symptoms when I can feel great and reap the bennies of higher T? Thanks for everyone's input so far. Incidentally the Androgel solo didn't do a whole lot - my trough taken 24 hours after dosing was actually lower than my peak naturally. I have low thyroid which probably contributed to this. Fortunately I have a great doc who gave me a script for the max dose of Androgel, if I need it, plus HCG. Upping the gel to 81 grams while adding HCG is doing me fine. I'll get bloods in a few months and can always switch to shots if needed. Thanks brothers!

 

[sammpedd88]

Are you being treated for the low thyroid?

 

[Cycloman]

I'm not yet being treated for the low thyroid. My antibodies were high, indicating I have Hashimoto's disease, which runs in my family. The doctor did an ultrasound of my thyroid, which came back pretty normal – he said that if I had the characteristic polyps from low thyroid – especially Hashimoto's disease – he would put me on meds. Going to follow up in four months with new bloods and then reassess the situation.

 

[Cycloman]

Got bloods back and total Test on 81 g / day of Androgel and 300 IU HCG was 1077 Ng / dl and that was 24 hours after the last application. Free Test was near the top of range and DHT was slightly over the top. Feeling great overall!

 

[Justlooking5]

"TLooks like a successful HPTA restart - using Clomid. Once you stop the Clomid your natural system should maintain testosterone production".

That was not my experience. Once I stopped Clomid, my test dropped significantly and my estradiol went a lot higher.

IMO you can't be sure of a successful restart until you are at least 8-12 months after your last dose of clomid. Case in point, me, ex-AAS user who at age 28 was prescribed clomid by a urologist with the following pattern:

1/2011: Clomid 25mg/day, Test > 1,000.
Stop clomid

4/2011: 3 months after last clomid dose. Test 611

6/2011: Test in the 400s 6 months off clomid

11/2011: Test in the upper 300s (back to original hypogonadal baseline) ~1 year off clomid

 

[Ninjo]

Great information in this thread. I've been on 200mg test cyp trt for a few years now and take 1mg Arimidex (i.e. anastrozole) twice per week (i.e. with each 100mg injection). It sounds like some would consider that a fairly high dose of Arimidex but I've not been experiencing any side effects of low E2 to this point and from what I recall, my bloodwork for estrogen always comes back within acceptable parameters. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Should I try backing off a bit on the Arimidex and see how it goes?

 

[Justlooking5]

Ninjo, I had a few q's if you don't mind.

1. How is your bloodwork at 200mg/week in terms of Total/Free T and other parameters (changes in lipids, hematocrit, etc.?)

2. How do you feel on that dose?

3. And where did you find a clinic to prescribe it?

 

[bruno.camilo]

IMO you can't be sure of a successful restart until you are at least 8-12 months after your last dose of clomid. Case in point, me, ex-AAS user who at age 28 was prescribed clomid by a urologist with the following pattern:

1/2011: Clomid 25mg/day, Test > 1,000.
Stop clomid

4/2011: 3 months after last clomid dose. Test 611

6/2011: Test in the 400s 6 months off clomid

11/2011: Test in the upper 300s (back to original hypogonadal baseline) ~1 year off clomid

Have u tried 25mg clomid on twice a week, like per say, Monday Tuesday ?

 

[Ninjo]

Ninjo, I had a few q's if you don't mind.

1. How is your bloodwork at 200mg/week in terms of Total/Free T and other parameters (changes in lipids, hematocrit, etc.?)

2. How do you feel on that dose?

3. And where did you find a clinic to prescribe it?

1. How is your bloodwork at 200mg/week in terms of Total/Free T and other parameters (changes in lipids, hematocrit, etc.?)

From my most recent set of labs (Feb 2017):

Total Test: 28.2 nmol/L
Free Test: 638 pmol/L
Bioavailable Test: 13.0 nmol/L
Estradiol: <60 pmol/L
DHEA: 6.9 umol/L
Free T3:3.7 pmol/L
Free T4: 16 pmol/L
Total Cholesterol: 4.53 mmol/L
HDL: 1.40 mmol/L
LDL: 2.77 mmol/L
Triglycerides: 0.78 mmol/L
Hematocrit: 0.46 L/L (on the high side of normal so started giving blood every other month)

2. How do you feel on that dose?
Like I am 25 again! Seriously, I feel like I'm in my thirties even though I'm closer to 50!

3. And where did you find a clinic to prescribe it?
Canada