confused by blood work and results

[SweetLou321]

Ive been trying to find a balance for some time now with my hormones and I have several different blood work results I want to post and im just looking for clarification on what they may or may not mean. I will say I am a trt patient who competes in powerlifting and has cycled twice for meets. I dont currently have health insurance. I have earlier blood work on legit trt of 125mg showing some interesting results I can post here as well. I have a pituitary tumor also. Has not grown since it was found in 2010.

Was on cycle on 4/17/15 (day after 250mg shot) of 1000mg test front load and then 1 week of 500mg when I had this done to check a source for a friend. (private md labs)
test was 1900 range 350-1200
estradiol was 100 range 8-43
was using aromasin at 12.5mg e3d
Had no real symptoms of high estradiol which I thought was odd. Libido was good, ability to maintain was good, no gyno symptoms.
I treated the high estradiol with .5mg adex eod. I dried out, knees started to hurt after this, and libido and ability to maintain went away.

Was on cruise dose of 250mg ugl test on 7/17/15 (3 days post 125mg shot no ai yet this day), had this done to check source to use for actual trt as i dont have insurance at the moment. (private md labs)
test was 1375 range 350-1200
estradiol was 45 rand 8-42
was using .25mg adex on shot days only (m/th)
Felt very similar to how I felt on .5mg adex eod. Libido wasnt great and ability to maintain was not there. Actually had 2 failed performances back to back.

Someone mentioned possible high prolactin due to problems i was having. Tested prolactin with no ai and lowered test to 150mg after blood work on 7/17/15 (3 days post 75mg shot) as I was looking for trt numbers. I was taking 250mg mucana 95% at night and 50mg p5p in the am too. I took nothing the day of the blood work. (private md labs)
Prolactin was 19 range 4-15.
I was feeling overall better with the prolactin supps then before. I thought I was on to something.

Decided to keep up with the prolactin and get a full panal done hoping to see how close I was to optimal. 9/14/15 (3 days post 75mg shot). mucana and p5p posed the day before. no ai. (LEF labs)
test 930 range 350-1200
free test 30 range 9-26
dhea 335 range 165-530
prolactin 38 range 4-15
estradiol 59 range 7-42
I wasnt feeling to great here. Libido was down and the ability to maintain was hard.

So you can see my hormones have been everywhere in the past few months. I feel my test levels are around where I would want them on 150mg I could even lower it a touch more to 125mg. Im shocked to see my estradiol so high on so little test. Im also shocked to see my prolactin so high. Dhea is right about where it has always been. I tried to bring it up using oral dhea a few years ago with no luck. Always been about the same.

Id love any input on what I should consider as my next move as im very confused by a few things.

I always feel better on no to very little AI. I seem to respond poorly to adex ingeneral as it throws me everywhere I feel and I can feel good one day and then 3-4 later feel awful. This also may explain why I prefer so little ai. High Estradiol Boosts Libido in Men on Testosterone Therapy - Renal and Urology News

I found some stuff on how prolactin and estradiol are linked. Showing that on case studies where they were treating hyperprolactima with cabergoline once they added trt to restore test levels the high estradiol levels that followed actually negated the cabergoline and only once they brought the estradiol down to range did the prolactin levels also go down with it. So that confused me too. Can try to locate the case studies I saw on another board if anyone wants to see them.

I have a study on 8 months of supplemented dhea (25mg) in elderly men that showed a whole host of negative hormone changes over the long term im not sure I want to deal with. This is oral. I would like to bring these levels up eventually. It showed that dhea was increased two fold and dheas was increased 2.5 times after a month and stayed that way for the 8 months. But androstendiol increased about two fold at month 4 and then estrone and estradiol increase around 2 fold in month 5 and stayed that way. I can try to attach it if anyone wants to see it.

I have these items on hand.

test e
mast e
adex
aromasin
cabergoline
dhea oral
dermacrine
formestane TD
Mucana 95% extract
P5P

Would love any input in anyway and any direction I can look into going. Sorry for the book but im just trying to cover as much ground and how I got here and how I feel. Thanks for any help at all.

Currently on
150mg test
.25mg adex eod (dont feel any better being on this)
125mg mucana am and pm
50mg p5p in the afternoon
25mg dhea oral.

That was suggested by a LEF doctor (except the mucana and p5p). only been 2 weeks but felt generally worse until I added the prolactin support.

EDIT: none of the test specify if the estradiol tests were sensative or ultra sensative. They just say estradiol. Which could be off I was told? Can anyone tell me which tests Im looking for next time?

 

[Gutterpump]

One thing to remember is that the ratio of T:E is pretty important. Even though your E was at 100, your T was right at 2000, and your DHT likely elevated as well. As long as the ratio is good, you won't need much of an AI, likely why you experienced those sides while trying to control E2 when it was at 100.

 

[SweetLou321]

One thing to remember is that the ratio of T:E is pretty important. Even though your E was at 100, your T was right at 2000, and your DHT likely elevated as well. As long as the ratio is good, you won't need much of an AI, likely why you experienced those sides while trying to control E2 when it was at 100.

Hmm ok so if that's the case for me to have a "in range" e2 I'd need to further decrease my test dose instead of simply adding an ai?

How would this all play into my previous prolactin numbers? Would I not need to bring down e2 to bring that down as well?

 

[sammpedd88]

In my opinion your test being off the charts is a problem. When your test was finally in range your E2 and prolactin were too high as was your free T. You can't just look at T and E2. You have to look at all of your hormones and thyroid as well.

 

[SweetLou321]

In my opinion your test being off the charts is a problem. When your test was finally in range your E2 and prolactin were too high as was your free T. You can't just look at T and E2. You have to look at all of your hormones and thyroid as well.

So what would my next step be?

 

[sammpedd88]

Get some blood work done based on your current protocol. Get total test, free test, E2, pregnenolone, DHEA, vitamin D, prolactin, complete thyroid and complete CBC. I think I covered them all. Once you get the results, adjust your TRT protocol from there. Also I inject slightly over 100 mgs a week, split in two doses. I pin on Saturday and Wednesday. I take .25 arimidex on injection days. You could possibly be taking too much AI. E2 is tough to dial in. Me personally my high symptoms are identical to my low ones so blood work was the only was I could get control of it. I'm not familiar with the other two things you're taking so someone may be able to chime in on those. Once you get your TRT protocol dialed in, then you can blast and cruise.

 

[Gutterpump]

Hmm ok so if that's the case for me to have a "in range" e2 I'd need to further decrease my test dose instead of simply adding an ai?

How would this all play into my previous prolactin numbers? Would I not need to bring down e2 to bring that down as well?

I was just saying you likely didn't need much of an AI when your test was 2000 and E2 100. Adding it in caused issues for you. Your DHT #'s are important here because they have an inverse correlation to E2. If DHT is high, then high E2 has less of an effect.

I still use an AI for my TRT protocol. Use it if needed but it looks like you were using too much before if your joints hurt and libido dropped.

This is the first I've heard of prolactin being tied to E2. I'm not too familiar with prolactin issues, so not too sure what to suggest.

 

[Gutterpump]

In my opinion your test being off the charts is a problem.

His test was off the charts because he was taking a lot of test at the time, it's not his problem. Seems like prolactin is the ongoing problem.

Thing is, I've never heard of prolactin rising just because E2 went up. I still think it's from the trest decanoate. Only other thing I can personally think of is a prolactinoma.

 

[SweetLou321]

His test was off the charts because he was taking a lot of test at the time, it's not his problem. Seems like prolactin is the ongoing problem.

Thing is, I've never heard of prolactin rising just because E2 went up. I still think it's from the trest decanoate.

So I need to low dose an ai for the estrogen issues or up my androgen to estrogen ratio.

So low dose asin?
Or
Add in mast e to off set ratio?

I'll find the case studies tonight but they showed that someone with hyperprolactima taken caber to bring it down where when they added test the increase in e2 had their prolactin go back up despite the caber. Only when an ai was added to bring down the e2 did the prolactin come down also. They said e2 stimulated the anterior pituitary to produce prolactin. (I believe this is where the control estrogen on tren theory came from). So its not in healthy people but it can help us understand the link.

That said. I don't seem to react to mucana well as after several days of dosing high or low leaves me with elevated hr/bp and sleep issues. So would trying .25mg 2xpw of caber be something good to try out?

 

[sammpedd88]

His test was off the charts because he was taking a lot of test at the time, it's not his problem. Seems like prolactin is the ongoing problem.

Thing is, I've never heard of prolactin rising just because E2 went up. I still think it's from the trest decanoate. Only other thing I can personally think of is a prolactinoma.

I know what you're saying but high test can cause problems and show signs similar to low t. I know he was blasting....I'm all for it. That's why it's important for guys just getting into TRT not to get caught up on wanting to be at the higher range of total test. Some guys do fine mid range. It all depends on the person.

 

[SweetLou321]

I know what you're saying but high test can cause problems and show signs similar to low t. I know he was blasting....I'm all for it. That's why it's important for guys just getting into TRT not to get caught up on wanting to be at the higher range of total test. Some guys do fine mid range. It all depends on the person.

I see where you are coming from. I always did OK on 125mg test once per week in the past. But my estrogen and prolactin would be high or near top end the first half of the week then low the second half. So I was trying to even my blood levels out more this time around.

Ie
125mg 2 days post shot
Test 1150
Total e 300
Prolactin 14
125mg 6 days post shot
Test 350
Total e less then 200
Prolactin 6

 

[sammpedd88]

Try splitting your dose in half and inject every 3.5 days. It could possibly drop your E2. If not then you may have to stay on an AI like me. I have to use one. .25 mgs on injection days.

 

[SweetLou321]

Try splitting your dose in half and inject every 3.5 days. It could possibly drop your E2. If not then you may have to stay on an AI like me. I have to use one. .25 mgs on injection days.

Which is what I have been doing on 150mg a week. E2 is still high however.

 

[sammpedd88]

Yeah you're prob like me man....I have to have an AI. I've tried all other routes and nothing else kept it down.

 

[SweetLou321]

Yeah you're prob like me man....I have to have an AI. I've tried all other routes and nothing else kept it down.

Unfortunately I think I might be the same. I'm just very sensative to adex so I'll probably go with aromasin.

 

[Gutterpump]

Aromasin is what I use. It's much better in the longterm, less impact on lipids. I only dose 12.5mg on day of shot (e3.5d). Splitting the dose definitely helps. Overtime, I've also found it better to lower my dose to something around 125mg/week (over 2 shots).

 

[SweetLou321]

Aromasin is what I use. It's much better in the longterm, less impact on lipids. I only dose 12.5mg on day of shot (e3.5d). Splitting the dose definitely helps. Overtime, I've also found it better to lower my dose to something around 125mg/week (over 2 shots).

So you prefer a lower dose also?

What numbers does your blood work show from that?

What about prolactin?

 

[Gutterpump]

So you prefer a lower dose also?

What numbers does your blood work show from that?

What about prolactin?

Definitely prefer a lower dose. Much easier to manage everything this way, less issues with E2, libido, functioning etc. I even dropped HCG because of E2 issues. Was a tough decision to do that though. I originally started TRT high (like most people) and dropped it down over time.

Not sure what my numbers are at now. I've been on TRT for so long, I just go by feel now.

My prolactin has always been in range, although I'm due for lab work & and physical end of this month, so I'll get tested again soon.

 

[SweetLou321]

Definitely prefer a lower dose. Much easier to manage everything this way, less issues with E2, libido, functioning etc. I even dropped HCG because of E2 issues. Was a tough decision to do that though. I originally started TRT high (like most people) and dropped it down over time.

Not sure what my numbers are at now. I've been on TRT for so long, I just go by feel now.

My prolactin has always been in range, although I'm due for lab work & and physical end of this month, so I'll get tested again soon.

I did the opposite. I started low (100mg) and went 125mg with my Dr then 200mg with my last one. The 200mg had my over 1500+ after 7 days post shot. I may pull back the t again from 150 back to 125. Not sure yet.

Would you think caber would be a good option for my prolactin if I can't handle mucana long term?

You also still think the trest DECA is playing a role in all this, 6 months later? Would explain my e2, prolactin, and high blood pressure. I've never had high blood pressure and now o have it after running that once cycle and it was the worst its ever been on that cycle. Sleep is the same way.

 

[Gutterpump]

Hard to say, have you ever tested prolactin before using trest?

I'm really wondering why prolactin is elevated. Have you ever had an MRI of the pituitary done?

I don't know much about caber/mucana, but I think caber is safely used longterm for people with prolactinomas. Not 100% on that though.

 

[SweetLou321]

Hard to say, have you ever tested prolactin before using trest?

I'm really wondering why prolactin is elevated. Have you ever had an MRI of the pituitary done?

I don't know much about caber/mucana, but I think caber is safely used longterm for people with prolactinomas. Not 100% on that though.

Yes I have. My prolactin goes up and down with my t/e levels on blood work.

On 125mg 1xpw
2 days post shot
Test 1150
Total e 300
Prolactin 14
6 days post shot, same dosage
Test 350
Total e less then 200
Prolactin 6

I have had 2 MRIs showing no tumor growth. I'm scheduled for another one next year. It was classified as benign.

Yes caber is the long term treatment for hyperprolactima.

 

[Gutterpump]

Yes I have. My prolactin goes up and down with my t/e levels on blood work.

On 125mg 1xpw
2 days post shot
Test 1150
Total e 300
Prolactin 14
6 days post shot, same dosage
Test 350
Total e less then 200
Prolactin 6

I have had 2 MRIs showing no tumor growth. I'm scheduled for another one next year. It was classified as benign.

Yes caber is the long term treatment for hyperprolactima.

what were the ranges for these labs?

 

[SweetLou321]

what were the ranges for these labs?

I'll have to look this up when I get home. I believe the test and prolactin are the same as the ones posted on the op. Total estrogen I'm not sure.

 

[sammpedd88]

Definitely prefer a lower dose. Much easier to manage everything this way, less issues with E2, libido, functioning etc. I even dropped HCG because of E2 issues. Was a tough decision to do that though. I originally started TRT high (like most people) and dropped it down over time.

Not sure what my numbers are at now. I've been on TRT for so long, I just go by feel now.

My prolactin has always been in range, although I'm due for lab work & and physical end of this month, so I'll get tested again soon.

Now that you e dropped HCG, do you miss it at all? I've never taken it because I've heard it's more trouble than it's worth.

 

[Gutterpump]

For me, HCG had more cons (sides) than pros. I don't miss it at all. The E2 and acne from it was enough to turn me off. I'm not 100% sure if I want kids, so I figure I'll roll the dice trying to start myself back up if I ever decide to try for them. I'm fairly certain triptorelin, HCG + HMG will do the trick if that day comes.

 

[sammpedd88]

For me, HCG had more cons (sides) than pros. I don't miss it at all. The E2 and acne from it was enough to turn me off. I'm not 100% sure if I want kids, so I figure I'll roll the dice trying to start myself back up if I ever decide to try for them. I'm fairly certain triptorelin, HCG + HMG will do the trick if that day comes.

Yeah I have kids so I'm not having anymore. Your experience on HCG is the same that I've heard from most guys. Glad I didn't try it.

 

[Gutterpump]

You also still think the trest DECA is playing a role in all this, 6 months later? Would explain my e2, prolactin, and high blood pressure. I've never had high blood pressure and now o have it after running that once cycle and it was the worst its ever been on that cycle. Sleep is the same way.

I have to be honest, I stopped a 6 week trest ace cycle about 5-6 weeks ago, and still have high blood pressure and poor sleep, and libido is up and down even while back on my usual TRT. I'm looking forward to getting new labs this month. I wonder if they'll mimic yours.

 

[SweetLou321]

I have to be honest, I stopped a 6 week trest ace cycle about 5-6 weeks ago, and still have high blood pressure and poor sleep, and libido is up and down even while back on my usual TRT. I'm looking forward to getting new labs this month. I wonder if they'll mimic yours.

Yeah I'm unsure if yours will be like mine or not. I will say I've run a lot when I was younger and always felt fine. Not even SD raised my bp or tren. But after mentabolan, treat ace, and now trest DECA I've been dealing with issues none stop. Even on seemingly nothing as far as aas goes.

Hell I even ran oral only hdrol and epi cycles and felt better then I feel now lol.

 

[Gutterpump]

Makes sense though, trest is the most potent thing out there. Funny thing is, I felt amazing when on, and libido was ridiculously insane.