Restoring Pregnenolone Deficiency

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I just had my annuals and this year it was my 50yo check-up. :D
Annual blood work is good.
Cardiology check-up is good.

Hormones results as follows:
(I am using Testosterone (125mg/w) and Masteron (140mg/w) split Sunday and Wednesday without AI)

Total Test (250-1100) - 620 (6 days post injection - doctor gets alarmed when too close to the range limit)
Free Testosterone (35-155) - 127
Estradiol (8-43) - 17
SHBG (10-50) - 37
DHEA-S (95-530) - 244
Pregnenolone (13-208) - 16

In response to these numbers along with my symptoms I will be using 100mg/d Sublingual Pregnenolone.

Symptoms/Anecdotes - I have been struggling with anxiety and depression and some dark thoughts as well as lack of energy and motivation for far too long. I have been using the Pregnenolone at this dose for just over 10 days now and I have been more productive than I have been in many many months. I have in the last two weekends knocked out two home projects that I have been overwhelmed by and procrastinated on for well over a year. I have managed to control/limit the negative thoughts and their progression. It feels good to feel good again.

I will be using this protocol for 6 weeks and then drawing bloods again. I am not using DHEA (although I have it) because pregnenolone can elevate DHEA on its own and I am just below mid range already. I will not use an AI as I am well below mid range on estradiol. I know that 100mg/d pregnenolone is generous but I was using it at 50mg/d for a couple/few weeks before my blood work. I will assess my blood work and adjust my protocol and ancillaries accordingly if and/or as required.

I will post up anything pertinent regarding training (which I have resumed after a long hiatus due to many factors) and mood as well as anything regarding sides.
 
kenpoengineer

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Interested in this outcome. I've asked my doc to check pregnenolone next appointment marking 6 months TRT in October. Pregnenolone is a neurosteroid as you know.
 
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Source Naturals, Pregnenolone, Cherry Flavored, 25mg, 120 Tablets
 
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Odd...I accidentally closed my thread.

I am curious to see what the thoughts out there are in regard to Pregnenolone suppression and testosterone. Is it a case of suppression via exogenous testosterone or is it via another mechanism?
 

sammpedd88

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Who makes the sublingual preg David?
I tried sublingual and my pregnenolone levels dropped from 209 to 17 in three months. For some reason sublingual doesn't work for me. I'm actually taking 200 mgs of oral pregnenolone a day to get my levels back up. I think they are getting where they need to be. I can tell if I'm having slight ED issues and my test and E2 are in check that it's my pregnenolone level being low. Now they are getting back up I'm having zero ED issues and could have sex two or three times a day!
 

kisaj

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I had this discussion with my endo when he wanted to see my pregnenolone and DHEA levels at the top of the range. Exogenous testosterone shuts down the P450scc enzyme which converts cholesterol to pregnenolone and it will drop fairly rapidly once on TRT. DHEA levels naturally decline after 35, so combined, the chances of being low are very high and there is nothing that will make you feel better than getting these levels up. Only a small part of preg will convert to DHEA, so supplementation is definitely beneficial. Dr. Crisler has been talking about this for some time.

I'd almost say that I notice an actual "feel" with preg and DHEA supplementation more than TRT. The energy, mental clarity, libido, and confidence are almost immediate.
 
napalm

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I've been tossing this around for a couple months now. Screw it, I'm picking up some preg on Friday. It's cheap, why not.

How well does dhea absorb orally?
 

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I've been tossing this around for a couple months now. Screw it, I'm picking up some preg on Friday. It's cheap, why not.

How well does dhea absorb orally?
Personally I absorb orals better than sublinguals.
 

kisaj

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It absorbs well, but is more prone to e2 conversion. Sublingual will be better.
 
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I finally ordered it, same brand as David. I was gonna go w the dermacrine, but that stuffs expensive!
 
The Matrix

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Correcting thyroid imbalances and evaluating Vitamin A levels would be my first start as these have been shown clinical and supported with studies to help preg. Could be alterations in cyp 450 not allowing cholesterol to convert manly LDL

If you body is in state of inflammation using preg may push it down the wrong pathways of cortisone which will only make matters worse. Using Preg is like playing russian roulette as you never know where it will go.
 
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I had this discussion with my endo when he wanted to see my pregnenolone and DHEA levels at the top of the range. Exogenous testosterone shuts down the P450scc enzyme which converts cholesterol to pregnenolone and it will drop fairly rapidly once on TRT. DHEA levels naturally decline after 35, so combined, the chances of being low are very high and there is nothing that will make you feel better than getting these levels up. Only a small part of preg will convert to DHEA, so supplementation is definitely beneficial. Dr. Crisler has been talking about this for some time.

I'd almost say that I notice an actual "feel" with preg and DHEA supplementation more than TRT. The energy, mental clarity, libido, and confidence are almost immediate.
Friggen love this guys' posts !!
 
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Symptoms/Anecdotes - I have been struggling with anxiety and depression and some dark thoughts as well as lack of energy and motivation for far too long. I have been using the Pregnenolone at this dose for just over 10 days now and I have been more productive than I have been in many many months. I have in the last two weekends knocked out two home projects that I have been overwhelmed by and procrastinated on for well over a year. I have managed to control/limit the negative thoughts and their progression. It feels good to feel good again.
continued improvement in the area above. Nothing dramatic but relieved of the negative mindset.

My training is poor right now. Neck, back, knee injuries are lingering. My sedentary job is starting to slow me and my metabolism down. I'm slowly introducing more caffeine as the anxiety seems to be gone for the most part.
 
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Thanks David. Are you only taking 1 sublingual tablet a day?
 
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Thanks ;)
 
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I had this discussion with my endo when he wanted to see my pregnenolone and DHEA levels at the top of the range. Exogenous testosterone shuts down the P450scc enzyme which converts cholesterol to pregnenolone and it will drop fairly rapidly once on TRT. DHEA levels naturally decline after 35, so combined, the chances of being low are very high and there is nothing that will make you feel better than getting these levels up. Only a small part of preg will convert to DHEA, so supplementation is definitely beneficial. Dr. Crisler has been talking about this for some time.

I'd almost say that I notice an actual "feel" with preg and DHEA supplementation more than TRT. The energy, mental clarity, libido, and confidence are almost immediate.
kisaj we've discussed your DHEA protocol before. I'm curious to know what your starting numbers/level was prior to your supplementation. Thanks in advance!
 

sammpedd88

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I had this discussion with my endo when he wanted to see my pregnenolone and DHEA levels at the top of the range. Exogenous testosterone shuts down the P450scc enzyme which converts cholesterol to pregnenolone and it will drop fairly rapidly once on TRT. DHEA levels naturally decline after 35, so combined, the chances of being low are very high and there is nothing that will make you feel better than getting these levels up. Only a small part of preg will convert to DHEA, so supplementation is definitely beneficial. Dr. Crisler has been talking about this for some time.

I'd almost say that I notice an actual "feel" with preg and DHEA supplementation more than TRT. The energy, mental clarity, libido, and confidence are almost immediate.

I second that. I "feel" more from pregnenolone and dhea than test. That good feeling of well-being and especially libido is unreal. I felt mine almost immediately as well. At first I thought it was in my head but it was really working that fast.
 

kisaj

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kisaj we've discussed your DHEA protocol before. I'm curious to know what your starting numbers/level was prior to your supplementation. Thanks in advance!
David, let me owe you an answer on that. My doc is in the middle of a transition to a new records program and this info isn't available right now. But I am seeing him this week, so I'll get those numbers. I do remember that I was in the mid 100s for DHEA and preg numbers escape me right now.
 
LMuscle

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I have a lot of negative sides with Preg, but a lot of positives with low dose DHEA. Can't wait to see what my DHEA levels are at with my next blood panel. After supplementing with DHEA, how long until levels drop back to normal after stopping?
 
The Matrix

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Again playing fill the gas tank may be increasing down stream effects of altering other hormone levels

Your thyroid can be completely normal in the blood, but due to adrenal, ferritin, and toxins effecting the mitochondrion, receptors, and tissue levels may be over looked. Doctors are only looking at 20% of the equation and missing the other 80%. When restoration of cause of mitochondria were not functioning peripheral thyroid imbalances and hypothyroid symptoms were resolved.

Correcting proper sleep cycle restored levels of DHEA in many people ..


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10759476.
 
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Again playing fill the gas tank may be increasing down stream effects of altering other hormone levels

Your thyroid can be completely normal in the blood, but due to adrenal, ferritin, and toxins effecting the mitochondrion, receptors, and tissue levels may be over looked. Doctors are only looking at 20% of the equation and missing the other 80%. When restoration of cause of mitochondria were not functioning peripheral thyroid imbalances and hypothyroid symptoms were resolved.

Correcting proper sleep cycle restored levels of DHEA in many people ..


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10759476.
Although you may have valid points some of us are not entitled to nor have access to this elite diagnostics which you continue to be suggesting. Medical referrals, co-pays, deductibles, benefit limits and exceptions/restrictions, time, work and life do not allow us to become test subjects for the plethora of laboratory testing you continue to mention. We all cannot live in a laboratory.

Additionally, the idea of proper sleep cycle in today's society of work, stress, family responsibilities and the likes are not conducive.

A simple 25mg of DHEA seems like a decent solution with minimal to no deleterious effects.

JMHO
 

sammpedd88

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Although you may have valid points some of us are not entitled to nor have access to this elite diagnostics which you continue to be suggesting. Medical referrals, co-pays, deductibles, benefit limits and exceptions/restrictions, time, work and life do not allow us to become test subjects for the plethora of laboratory testing you continue to mention. We all cannot live in a laboratory.

Additionally, the idea of proper sleep cycle in today's society of work, stress, family responsibilities and the likes are not conducive.

A simple 25mg of DHEA seems like a decent solution with minimal to no deleterious effects.

JMHO
Agreed!!!! Couldn't like your post enough.
 
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Amen
 

kisaj

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David, let me owe you an answer on that. My doc is in the middle of a transition to a new records program and this info isn't available right now. But I am seeing him this week, so I'll get those numbers. I do remember that I was in the mid 100s for DHEA and preg numbers escape me right now.
DHEA-s reference range 106-464 mcg/dL
Pre TRT (1/2011) 267
(2/2012) 233
(1/2013) 199
(1/2014) 145
3 months on 50mg 420

I've lowered to 25mg for the last 16-18 months and stay in the low-mid 400s.

Pregnenolone Reference range 13-208 ng/dL
(2/2012) 119
(1/2013) 97
(1/2014) 93
3 months on 50mg 203

I still take 50mg, but only a few times a week and it has stayed in the high 180-190 range.

TRT and age no doubt had me riding lower, but as I stayed on TRT it continued to decline.
 
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Thanks kisaj for the follow-up and the meticulous details.
 
LMuscle

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I'll post my levels up soon with my next blood panel. The last time I checked while on TRT it was 42. I've been supplementing with 5-10mg sublingual DHEA every few days, anything higher makes me break out. Definitely makes you feel better and increases libido on trt.
 
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DHEA-s reference range 106-464 mcg/dL
Pre TRT (1/2011) 267
(2/2012) 233
(1/2013) 199
(1/2014) 145
3 months on 50mg 420

I've lowered to 25mg for the last 16-18 months and stay in the low-mid 400s.

Pregnenolone Reference range 13-208 ng/dL
(2/2012) 119
(1/2013) 97
(1/2014) 93
3 months on 50mg 203

I still take 50mg, but only a few times a week and it has stayed in the high 180-190 range.

TRT and age no doubt had me riding lower, but as I stayed on TRT it continued to decline.

My starting numbers and present protocol:

DHEA-S (95-530) - 244 (presently dosing 25mg)
Pregnenolone (13-208) - 16 (presently dosing 100mg)

Some observation:
I am 9yrs older than you.
I have been on TRT since 2007.

Your protocol and results:
3 months of 50mg of DHEA raised YOU 275 points. I am using 25mg now and if apples:apples were worth anything and I switched to 50mg and was elevated 275 points I would be at 519 (we have different lab range limits obviously).

3 months of 50mg of pregnenolone raised YOU 110 points. I am using 100mg now and if apples:apples were worth anything at MY double of your dose I would be elevated 220 points that would put me at 236 (just a bit over the high end).

My thoughts:
My initial impression is to raise my DHEA to 50mg and keep my pregnenolone at 100mg then proceed with follow-up testing in another two months or so and adjust accordingly.

You mentioned E2 in range with no need for an AI if IIRC.

I realize we're two different bodies and can respond differently. What are your thoughts?
 

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Yeah, I think that would certainly be worth trying, but I want to mention something about the preg. When my doc suggesting supplementing originally, I took 100mg preg and 50mg DHEA for a couple weeks per his suggestion, but ended up lowering the preg to 50mg for the 3 month trial because it started to give me insomnia and I broke out a bit. WIthin a week of going to 50, I was okay again. So I feel that it was probably converting quite a bit to e2, but I never found out as I was sick of getting labs.

If you go that route, just keep an eye on it and possibly have an AI just in case.

And I do not regularly use an AI with my TRT (test, preg, dhea) protocol. I will add one in just for asthetic reasons sometimes as it is nice to drop all water weight.
 
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Yeah, I think that would certainly be worth trying, but I want to mention something about the preg. When my doc suggesting supplementing originally, I took 100mg preg and 50mg DHEA for a couple weeks per his suggestion, but ended up lowering the preg to 50mg for the 3 month trial because it started to give me insomnia and I broke out a bit. WIthin a week of going to 50, I was okay again. So I feel that it was probably converting quite a bit to e2, but I never found out as I was sick of getting labs.

If you go that route, just keep an eye on it and possibly have an AI just in case.

And I do not regularly use an AI with my TRT (test, preg, dhea) protocol. I will add one in just for asthetic reasons sometimes as it is nice to drop all water weight.
No adverse reaction to the preg at 100mg now for just over 4 weeks. My follow-up testing for DHEA and Preg will include E2 as well. Your insight is duly noted and appreciated. Thanks again!
 
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I'm not one for anecdotal efficacy but I must say that with nothing at all different, including my nights sleep, caffeine or even prayer and scripture time this morning, my mood and energy is markedly elevated by what seems to be only by increasing my DHEA from 25mg to 50mg this morning.

Go figure. That is all :)
 
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Hey. Whatever works - just enjoy ;)
 

SweetLou321

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I just had my annuals and this year it was my 50yo check-up. :D
Annual blood work is good.
Cardiology check-up is good.

Hormones results as follows:
(I am using Testosterone (125mg/w) and Masteron (140mg/w) split Sunday and Wednesday without AI)

Total Test (250-1100) - 620 (6 days post injection - doctor gets alarmed when too close to the range limit)
Free Testosterone (35-155) - 127
Estradiol (8-43) - 17
SHBG (10-50) - 37
DHEA-S (95-530) - 244
Pregnenolone (13-208) - 16

In response to these numbers along with my symptoms I will be using 100mg/d Sublingual Pregnenolone.

Symptoms/Anecdotes - I have been struggling with anxiety and depression and some dark thoughts as well as lack of energy and motivation for far too long. I have been using the Pregnenolone at this dose for just over 10 days now and I have been more productive than I have been in many many months. I have in the last two weekends knocked out two home projects that I have been overwhelmed by and procrastinated on for well over a year. I have managed to control/limit the negative thoughts and their progression. It feels good to feel good again.

I will be using this protocol for 6 weeks and then drawing bloods again. I am not using DHEA (although I have it) because pregnenolone can elevate DHEA on its own and I am just below mid range already. I will not use an AI as I am well below mid range on estradiol. I know that 100mg/d pregnenolone is generous but I was using it at 50mg/d for a couple/few weeks before my blood work. I will assess my blood work and adjust my protocol and ancillaries accordingly if and/or as required.

I will post up anything pertinent regarding training (which I have resumed after a long hiatus due to many factors) and mood as well as anything regarding sides.
I'm curious what the mast does for you and what your blood work looked like before and after adding it?
 

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I've tried sublingual dhea and preg and both gave me a crazy headache and head rush. The oral dhea doesn't seem to do much for me as shown on blood work. I haven't tried oral preg. Dermacrine is a hit or miss for me. Sometimes keeps me up at night and it seems to make me a little anxious and my thoughts race. Deff don't need as much caffeine during the day while using it tho.
 
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I'm curious what the mast does for you and what your blood work looked like before and after adding it?
It is a DHT derivative which has anti-estrogen capabilities as well as helps lower SHBG which in turn increases free testosterone. It also has positive aesthetic, mood and libido properties. I do not have a full hormone panel without it for comparison.
 

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It is a DHT derivative which has anti-estrogen capabilities as well as helps lower SHBG which in turn increases free testosterone. It also has positive aesthetic, mood and libido properties. I do not have a full hormone panel without it for comparison.
I was considering adding it myself instead of using an ai, as I have such a hard time dialing them in even with blood work. Thanks for the feedback!
 
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I was considering adding it myself instead of using an ai, as I have such a hard time dialing them in even with blood work. Thanks for the feedback!
That and my cholesterol prefers not having an AI as well.
 
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Sometimes keeps me up at night and it seems to make me a little anxious and my thoughts race. Deff don't need as much caffeine during the day while using it tho.
I noticed this initially and thought it was coincidence. It can cause a bit of intensity and teeth grinding/jaw clenching if I get carried away with the caffeine. It's a good thing as my energy levels were previously tanked. I just need to watch my stimulant intake so as not to get too wired. Too soon to really say that my energy is dramatically improved and sustainable but it is progress.

Was back in the gym this morning for the first time in a while. That means rising at 3:30AM. I'm doing my best to keep moving and active with the little sustained energy I have because traditionally, as of late. if I stop I'm out on the couch. Then that ruins my night sleep when I do go to bed.
 

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Odd experience today with caffeine. We went camping this weekend in the middle of no where and forgot to bring coffee. So I went almost 4 days without and it didn't really bother me. But today I made the same coffee I always make in the morning and was uncomfortable. I was anxious and generally just annoyingly hyper inside.

Made me wonder if I just got used to that feeling and my body got used to it. I don't know, but I am going half caff tomorrow.
 

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I noticed this initially and thought it was coincidence. It can cause a bit of intensity and teeth grinding/jaw clenching if I get carried away with the caffeine. It's a good thing as my energy levels were previously tanked. I just need to watch my stimulant intake so as not to get too wired. Too soon to really say that my energy is dramatically improved and sustainable but it is progress.

Was back in the gym this morning for the first time in a while. That means rising at 3:30AM. I'm doing my best to keep moving and active with the little sustained energy I have because traditionally, as of late. if I stop I'm out on the couch. Then that ruins my night sleep when I do go to bed.
That is exactly how I would describe my experience with preg and caffeine. I actually discontinued preg due to insomnia issues and anxiety issues. I love the stuff but those were getting out of hand for me personally.
 
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Three days awake at 3:30AM and to the gym. It's been a while.

Improved energy during the day and less need for coffee. Not falling asleep on the couch after work.

I just realized that my annual had CBC and CMP but we did not check my iron. I'm a hemachromtosis carrier. I was negative for overload when diagnosed a carrier quite a few years ago. I donate blood double red regularly. I'm considering dropping the $60 and getting an Iron Panel just for piece of mind and because I'm due to donate again and I want to see my number before hand. The PCP copayment to get a draw script is $40 and I'll quite likely have a couple bucks out of pocket due to insurance coverage BS. I think I'll drop the extra $20 to do it out of pocket and at my convenience.

No symptoms of aromatization or elevated estradiol yet. All is progressing well.

Feels good to have a full muscle belly and pump on again.
 
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I'm not one for anecdotal efficacy but I must say that with nothing at all different, including my nights sleep, caffeine or even prayer and scripture time this morning, my mood and energy is markedly elevated by what seems to be only by increasing my DHEA from 25mg to 50mg this morning.

Go figure. That is all :)
Got new blood work numbers today for DHEA-S and E2

Start:
Estradiol (8-43) - 17
DHEA-S (95-530) - 244
Today after 30 days at 50mg/d DHEA:
Estradiol (8-43) - 43.9
DHEA-S (95-530) - 315.7

I am finding DHEA-S reference ranges vary very considerably.
Some as low as 35-179 which would have me well over range.

I am happy the level increased but quite honestly I see nothing dramatic anecdotally. Unfortunately I did not get the projected increase of DHEA-S I had speculated but did get elevated E2.

My E2 is at the limit as a result and honestly I would rather NOT take an AI to mediate elevated E2 to achieve higher DHEA-S.

I have to consider my path forward:
  • Drop back to 25mg for maintenance and see if/when E2 drops back down
  • Stay at 50mg and see if E2 diminishes/stabilizes over the next month on its own
  • Stay at 50mg and add an AI.
I'm hesitant to change things just yet.

What are your thoughts kisaj ?
 

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Got new blood work numbers today for DHEA-S and E2

Start:

Today after 30 days at 50mg/d DHEA:
Estradiol (8-43) - 43.9
DHEA-S (95-530) - 315.7

I am finding DHEA-S reference ranges vary very considerably. Some as low as 35-179 which would have me well over range.

I am happy the level increased but quite honestly see I nothing dramatic anecdotally. Unfortunately I did not get the project increase of DHEA-S I had speculated but did get elevated E2.

My E2 is at the limit as a result and honestly I would rather NOT take an AI to mediate elevated E2 to achieve higher DHEA-S.

I have to consider my path forward:

[*]Drop back to 25mg for maintenance and see if/when E2 drops back down
[*]Stay at 50mg and see if E2 diminishes/stabilizes over the next month on its own
[*]Stay at 50mg and add an AI.


I'm hesitant to change things just yet.

What are your thoughts kisaj ?
Don't have to much to add honestly except maybe sublingual might add something more to dhea-s and less e2?

There is also transdermal too.
 

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Feels good to have a full muscle belly and pump on again.
This could be from the increase in estrogen since you could be holding more glycogen bc of it and producing more nitric oxide.
 

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