TRT crowd (how much AI do you take)

[Whacked]

Just curious where others fall as Estrogen (Aromatase) can be all over the place based on the individual

1) How much Test per Week

2) What type of AI (Aromasin, Arimidex etc)

2) How much per day are you taking to put you in the sweet spot

Thanks

 

[kisaj]

I run 50mg e3.5d.
I run Formeron because I love the drying effect. I use 2 pumps eod.

I will say that the sweet spot is right in the 20-25 range for e2, which I have achieved through my protocol, but I love Form because it shreds me and brings it to an even sweeter spot with minimal use.

 

[Gutterpump]

12.5mg aromasin eod or so when I'm using 125mg test per week.

Currently leaning out a lot and curious to see if this need will change soon.

 

[Andy G]

100 mg cyp week/2yrs

Aromasin

Generally only 1st and 2nd day after shot, 25 mg, then 12.5

 

[Whacked]

Sup Andy: You are using 12.5 mg/day 6 days a week?

Sweet bicep pic - THICK bro

 

[kisaj]

No, I don't use script AIs.

edit- haha, sorry. I am also Andy and thought you asked me for a sec.

 

[hewhoisripped]

500mg test
12.5mg aromasin EOD
60mg ralox E3D or as needed
Have some formeron y apply only to nips about once a week for the hell of it

Estrogen is 40-60. IMO if your androgen levels are high, there's nothing wrong with letting your estrogen go to the high end, unless you're developing gyno. Without any AI or anything, my estradiol was 90, despite which I had no real sides (certainly no gyno or sexual dysfunction). I keep it lower just as a precaution and mental comfort, no need to push the envelope here.

 

[kisaj]

Do you really believe what you just wrote? You think there is no problem keeping estrogen levels that high based on the fact that you don't have gyno?

LOL

 

[hewhoisripped]

Do you really believe what you just wrote? You think there is no problem keeping estrogen levels that high based on the fact that you don't have gyno?

LOL

yes I do. high androgen levels negate a lot of the effects of estrogen. DHT is a strong AI (sort of since it's not actually an aromatose inhibitor, it acts via a lot of different mechanisms, some of which aren't fully understood). Long story short, if DHT is high estrogen can also be high with no negative consequences. just look at the dudes that go on proscar or other 5a reductase inhibitors and then get gyno, their estrogen never changed they just crushed their DHT levels

 

[Gutterpump]

When I am running androgens, I hardly use any AI. But this is getting out of the territory of TRT

 

[kisaj]

Way out.

 

[Whacked]

To Gutter and Andy

That Aromasin dosing seems a bit HIGH for your TRT test doses

No?

 

[Gutterpump]

To Gutter and Andy

That Aromasin dosing seems a bit HIGH for your TRT test doses

No?

I dose my aromasin based on morning wood. It is a bit high. I'm fairly lean but for some reason have always needed a bit extra.

I'm going to start dosing my test eod and see if this helps much, plus am aiming for single digit body fat by Sept. Currently around 14-15%

 

[kisaj]

To Gutter and Andy

That Aromasin dosing seems a bit HIGH for your TRT test doses

No?

Just my experience-

When I first started out on TRT, I was taking 200mg ew, split into 100mg injections (yes, I started way high like so many do) I would take 12.5 on the day after inject and over the course of 1-2 months, my e2 was crushed. I am very sensitive to it and only taking this AI 2x week brought my levels way too low. Anything below 10 and it is bad news for me. I was riding at 7 with aromasin at 12.5.

 

[hewhoisripped]

Oh just to add some data to my case:
-200mg of test = no AI, no problems (don't have blood work)
-natty (600ng/DL test) and NO AI my estrogen was always <15 (even 9 once lol). Idk why, but I guess at least back then I had naturally very low aromatization levels. Interesting considering my growth plates closed pretty early on.

 

[Gutterpump]

Yeah I'm a bit perplexed why I need so much of it. Getting off topic though, when I use an androgen and keep TRT dose the same, I only take 12.5mg of aromasin the day of my shot, once a week. I have been taking my test in only 1 shot a week though. Going to try to change this again.

 

[Whacked]

Some good info here fellas. Thanks for the replies.

 

[B5150]

500mg test
12.5mg aromasin EOD
60mg ralox E3D or as needed
Have some formeron y apply only to nips about once a week for the hell of it

Estrogen is 40-60. IMO if your androgen levels are high, there's nothing wrong with letting your estrogen go to the high end, unless you're developing gyno. Without any AI or anything, my estradiol was 90, despite which I had no real sides (certainly no gyno or sexual dysfunction). I keep it lower just as a precaution and mental comfort, no need to push the envelope here.

There are other things to be concerned about with running 500mg year round of testosterone besides estradiol. Elevated hematocrit, hemoglobin, RBC and it can also be counter productive to lipids as well.

 

[Gutterpump]

Just my experience-

When I first started out on TRT, I was taking 200mg ew, split into 100mg injections (yes, I started way high like so many do) I would take 12.5 on the day after inject and over the course of 1-2 months, my e2 was crushed. I am very sensitive to it and only taking this AI 2x week brought my levels way too low. Anything below 10 and it is bad news for me. I was riding at 7 with aromasin at 12.5.

Kisaj, what is your BF%? Has it been fairly low longterm whilst on TRT?

 

[kisaj]

I have always been right around 10-12%. The main difference is that since starting TRT, it has become quite easy to stay there, even without always paying attention to my diet.

 

[bigt405]

I take 100mg a week and sometimes blast @ 200 with no AI.

 

[hewhoisripped]

There are other things to be concerned about with running 500mg year round of testosterone besides estradiol. Elevated hematocrit, hemoglobin, RBC and it can also be counter productive to lipids as well.

oh yeah certainly. that's why regular blood work (and donating blood) is key. I don't run 500 year round (but yes for extended periods), my cruise dose is more like 200-250 for which I don't need an AI really (as I posted above)

 

[Andy G]

Whacked,

Thanks man. That pic was taken several years ago too. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my first post. I use only 25 mg then 12.5 day after and I'm done for the week. No more AI til next inject. I seem to feel it quick, red flushed face, an anxiety type sensation that I am not normally prone to. Using it for only those two days seems to work very well. I've experimented several different ways, split dosage 50 mg x 2 week, etc. This is current protocol, one 100 mg shot a week as prescribed. I've tested twice this year w almost identical total test levels of 700 and free about 50. Estradiol was 46, NOT sensitive assay however. I experimented w prop 50 mg eod and no AI was needed based off of how I was feeling.

 

[Gutterpump]

I have always been right around 10-12%. The main difference is that since starting TRT, it has become quite easy to stay there, even without always paying attention to my diet.

I've been around 16-17% for a while although lower now and aiming for 9-10% and to stay there. Also, I completely forgot that without taking any androgens, my DHT hovers around the bottom of range (21) when on a TRT dose. My body doesn't convert test to DHT as much as most (which can be causing my E2 issues). 5-alpha reductase enzyme issue seems like the culprit here. I completely forgot about this. I like to coast on a low dose of masteron at all times because of this. Pricey though.

Edit: fixed some stupid mistakes above. Just finished leg day and haven't eaten... ughh.. got a plate of 5 eggs, whey + casein shake and a bunch of toasted & buttered italian bread ready to dip into those yokes... enjoying my last week of carbs before jumping back into the diet.

 

[hewhoisripped]

I've been around 16-17% for a while although lower now and aiming for 9-10% and to stay there. Also, I completely forgot that without taking any androgens, my DHT hovers around the bottom of range (21) when on a TRT dose. My body doesn't convert test to DHT as much as most. 5-alpha reductase enzyme issue. I completely forgot about this. I like to coast on a low dose of masteron at all times because of this. Pricey though.

wish I had my DHT tested, but that's like another $70...

for the record I'm at 7-8% summer and 12-14% winter.

 

[Gutterpump]

If you have little need for an AI, your DHT is probably really great I'd bet.

 

[hewhoisripped]

If you have little need for an AI, your DHT is probably really great I'd bet.

yeah that's my guess, but it's a wild guess, and I don't want it too high either since I have a family history of MPB. I'd almost rather lower my DHT and up my AI, but I'd need to do at least a couple bloods for that which would be hundreds, plus it all goes out the window if I throw other compounds into the mix.

 

[Gutterpump]

Daily use of Nizoral 2% seems to do the trick. I shampoo first and let it soak in for my whole shower. If I shower twice in one day, then I'll also use it both times.

 

[hewhoisripped]

Daily use of Nizoral 2% seems to do the trick. I shampoo first and let it soak in for my whole shower. If I shower twice in one day, then I'll also use it both times.

I use nizo, but only the non-prescription, and only once a day. haven't had any problems yet, even with tren, but it's one of those things you may not notice until it's too late. if by making smart choices and a few sacrifices now I can cycle for the rest of my life and keep my hair, I'd be willing to do that vs. run whatever now and be bald at 30 (in 10 years)

 

[The Gar]

New to the board.

Seems like most have converted to aromasin and away from arimidex.
Reviewed some of the available lit on both and seems the way to go.

Anybody have any "real" success/E-control with the OTC's (form/arimistane)?

 

[kisaj]

Yeah, there are a ton of people that use OTC. Search on Formeron.

 

[Driven2lift]

Yeah, there are a ton of people that use OTC. Search on Formeron.

http://www.orbitnutrition.com/cart/black-lion-research-formeron.html

In stock soon, or there is a link there to IronFlex's Formabolic

 

[hewhoisripped]

I think form is great for E control, however I would ALWAYS keep something stronger on hand.

 

[Gutterpump]

Aromasin has been my favorite AI. It's far superior to Arimidex in many ways. Very good on lipids (unlike arimidex), and also positively effects IGF-1.

 

[Whacked]

How much you using for TRT and/or cycles GutterP?

I have been having a hard time dialing in correct dose for my TRT

Started at 10 mg/day for TRT (200 mg/week of T.Enth.), got lean fast then crashed my E2 (no energy, no libido)

On 5 mg/day now but look noticeably softer (but libido is siolid)

 

[Gutterpump]

How much you using for TRT and/or cycles GutterP? I have been having a hard time dialing in correct dose for my TRT Started at 10 mg/day for TRT (200 mg/week of T.Enth.), got lean fast then crashed my E2 (no energy, no libido) On 5 mg/day now but look noticeably softer (but libido is siolid)

Hrmm 12.5 mg eod seems to do the trick no matter how much test I'm on. It's a steroidal AI, and 12.5mg will basically block the receptors by about 50% or so. Ratio should remain intact even when on more test. But with bad shoulders, I no longer go very high on test anymore as it cuts down collagen synthesis. I find I don't keep on a constant dose of my AI though, it fluctuates. I'm able to read my body fairly well now and aromasin has an immediate effect.

 

[Yolked]

Mixed up some Chrysin capsules with Emu oil.. haven't used any letro in over a week

 

[Gutterpump]

I want to start reading up again more on estrogen metabolization. Not all estrogens are bad. Crysin, DIM, I3C, etc, substances which aid in the breakdown and metabolization of estrogens, instead of just bluntly blocking them... I think that will have a much better effect on health in the longterm.

 

[Whacked]

Could not agree more! That said, not sure I "trust" them enough to be good enough of efficacious enough for me as I really rely on these AI's.

Wish we could get a NON SUPP PIMPING resident guru to talk on the subject here

 

[Yolked]

I want to start reading up again more on estrogen metabolization. Not all estrogens are bad. Crysin, DIM, I3C, etc, substances which aid in the breakdown and metabolization of estrogens, instead of just bluntly blocking them... I think that will have a much better effect on health in the longterm.

Yup. If there's a natural remedy I'm always willing to use it first

 

[sammpedd88]

Yup. If there's a natural remedy I'm always willing to use it first

I've tried I3C and DIM stacked with zinc. Neither lowered my E2. Maybe you guys will have better luck.

 

[RipdnTxs]

Ive been on HRT for 7 years now and have had to increase my Cyp. dose to 110 ml every four days. My nipples began to get hard an a little sensitive at times, I am on my fifth bottle of Formeron and am leaner and no more sensitive nipples or hardness. I have never tried a prescribed AI.....

 

[Penner]

On every TRT website I read that you should keep estrogen under control as it can negatively affect your erectile function and/or libido. However when I search for scientific evidence on Pubmed I don't find any. On the contrary: a high estrogen (in combination with a high testosteron) seems to increase erectile function and libido.

I do understand that a high estrogen level is a an erection and libido killer for people not on TRT, as high estrogen lowers testosteron production. I also understand some men need an aromatase inhibitor because of gynaecomastia problems. I am not talking about that. I am talking about guys on TRT that are constantly trying to keep their E2 in the "sweet spot" (20-40 range), because they are convinced that otherwise they will not function sexually. Is this internet wisdom (aka broscience) or is there some truth in this assumption?

 

[sammpedd88]

On every TRT website I read that you should keep estrogen under control as it can negatively affect your erectile function and/or libido. However when I search for scientific evidence on Pubmed I don't find any. On the contrary: a high estrogen (in combination with a high testosteron) seems to increase erectile function and libido. I do understand that a high estrogen level is a an erection and libido killer for people not on TRT, as high estrogen lowers testosteron production. I also understand some men need an aromatase inhibitor because of gynaecomastia problems. I am not talking about that. I am talking about guys on TRT that are constantly trying to keep their E2 in the "sweet spot" (20-40 range), because they are convinced that otherwise they will not function sexually. Is this internet wisdom (aka broscience) or is there some truth in this assumption?

I had blood work done last week and my Dr emailed me with my results. These labs were the first once since I started taking arimidex about six weeks ago. My Dr said my E2 was at 23.7 so it was right where I wanted it to be. It mainly goes by how each individual feels. Some are better off in the high teens where some feel better in the 30's. Most do well in the 20-30 range. So yes dr's do use that range as an average or a reference point to get you to while on TRT.

 

[hewhoisripped]

I had blood work done last week and my Dr emailed me with my results. These labs were the first once since I started taking arimidex about six weeks ago. My Dr said my E2 was at 23.7 so it was right where I wanted it to be. It mainly goes by how each individual feels. Some are better off in the high teens where some feel better in the 30's. Most do well in the 20-30 range. So yes dr's do use that range as an average or a reference point to get you to while on TRT.

Exactly, very personal IMO. As was discussed before, the ratio of androgens/estrogen is very important, since DHT in particular has a pronounced effect on what estrogen does.

 

[kisaj]

I'll back up what others are saying. Hormones need to work in balance and when you throw one off, it can ruin everything and that is why it takes so long to get TRT correct. You need to make sure you are aware of all your hormone numbers ie, test, free test, cortisol, dhea, pregnenolone, e2, and shbg.

As far as the question regarding estrogen- no, it is not broscience, it just happens that people are finally becoming more aware that test is not everything. You need to keep your estrogen in ratio with your test levels. On TRT, it is difficult because we are responsible to doing what nature does with guys not on it. High estrogen is bad in any case, but low estrogen is too.

I personally like to keep my total test in the 700-800 (250-1320 scale) range, free test in the 30ish range (5-40 scale), and e2 in the 15-25 range (3-70 scale).

 

[Gutterpump]

The interesting thing about TRT (I've been on it for years) is how the body will naturally fluctuate in it's metabolism of test, meaning DHT/E2 #'s will fluctuate up and down over time as well. I've personally learned to dose my AI depending on how I'm feeling/functioning. It took a while to get to know myself, now I dose without looking at labs very often. Another testament that there is never a cookie-cutter approach to this.

I recently dropped about 15pnds after a cut and I've cut my AI use in half. Using 12.5mg aromasin twice a week (same days as I take my 65mg test dose), and everything is great. I used to take 12.5mg ed, and then eod. Leanness really plays a role in aromatization.

 

[Penner]

I have never been able to discern an effect of my E2 level on my libido/erection in all these years of TRT. After reading all the posts on TRT forums I spoke about the subject with my doctor and he agrees he has not seen such an effect in his patients. I have done an extensive search for scientific proof for the assumed link but couldn't find any. It seems this "truth" started it's own life on the internet and when it is repeated often enough people start to think it's a fact. Now when John Doe writes a post about libido/erection issues everybody jumps on the bandwagon claiming the culprit has to be his E2 level, without even questioning this idea...

 

[kisaj]

Well, it seems that you have already made up your mind and really aren't in a discussion mode anymore. Those of us that get regular labs know the effect that it has on libido and mood, so we choose to address it rather than stick our head in the sand or make blanket statements about the Internet and TRT patients. Does that mean we are just attacking estrogen, no. That means we are working on proper protocol, which in turn, lowers estrogen. In addition, to have your doctor say that high estrogen is not a problem with libido is absurd and makes me think that you are just dealing with a PCP. My endo knows it is very common with his patients when it is too high or low.

Good luck on your journey, sir.

 

[sammpedd88]

Well, it seems that you have already made up your mind and really aren't in a discussion mode anymore. Those of us that get regular labs know the effect that it has on libido and mood, so we choose to address it rather than stick our head in the sand or make blanket statements about the Internet and TRT patients. Does that mean we are just attacking estrogen, no. That means we are working on proper protocol, which in turn, lowers estrogen. In addition, to have your doctor say that high estrogen is not a problem with libido is absurd and makes me think that you are just dealing with a PCP. My endo knows it is very common with his patients when it is too high or low. Good luck on your journey, sir.

Well said my man!