some labs from trt advice please

[edmassa]

Hi everyone,
I have been a longtime lurker here and have learned a great deal from you guys. After reading I decided to get some test done as my trt didn't seem optimized. I have NO morning or nighttime wood. Fairly low sex drive and irritable still.

Protocol is
80mg test cyp Mondays and Thursdays
250iu hcg on Sunday an Wednesday
Aromasin on hand as needed usually 6.25mg once a week when i feel nips itching(obviously need to make this a steady part)


here are the results which were taken Monday morning before my 80mg shot so theoretically would be "trough"
Testosterone, Serum 982 348-1197 ng/dL MB
Estradiol 38.4 7.6-42.6 pg/mL MB
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum 18.1 16.5-55.9 nmol/L MB


please offer any advice!! Thanks

 

[kisaj]

Well, top of mind thoughts:

- that is a very high test level in your trough, that means you are riding above normal limits most of the time. Could be an issue.
- e2 is high and could be a result of having your test riding that high.
-hcg is notorious for raising e2

160mg a week isn't out of control, but it is on the higher side of TRT doses and you may want to lower that to see if it can help bring down the e2 levels. Also, if you don't need the HCG for having kids, may want to see if you really need it. I don't know anyone that uses it outside of a few on here. That can be increasing your e2 levels.

 

[edmassa]

wow,
thanks for the reply!
Some great advice I may drop the hcg for the e2 reasons mentioned and also I think It will lower my test a little as well which would be a
double bonus.

 

[kisaj]

I'd do one at a time. Doing more than thing will make it difficult to determine what is helping and can be a variable in troubleshooting this for you. I'd lower my test first because there may be a reason your doctor has you on HCG, I'd check with them. Personally, I have continued to lower my injections and do 50mg e3.5d, down from 60mg a few months ago. I still come in the day before injection in the 650-700 range, which is very comfortable for me.

 

[edmassa]

The hcg i source from India I purchased this on my own after reading all the hype on the boards about "backfilling
pathways and pregnelelone production. I may end up where you are but I feel like I want my test on the higher end of the range if Im going to be doing trt anyways. Im six months into this and already lowered myself fromm 200 mg a week to 200 mg split into two shots and now finally I am here. I will just drop the hcg and see what the labs say in a month. Thanks for your help!

 

[BJE]

I never like to see a recommendation to lower testosterone. I did not really start feeling well until I got to a dose of 200mg that cyp per week. I was dividing it and injecting every other day SQ. I had a test done and my trough value was 1269. Of course the peak would not be much higher on an every other day schedule. My doctor did not pressure me to cut back, but I voluntarily cut back to 150 per week. On an every other day schedule I tested at a trough of 897 and a peak of 938. On paper that looks great, but I didn't feel as well. When it was time for a refill I asked if I could keep the prescription at 200 per week because I felt better at that level. He went along with it.

I also hate to read suggestions that a person should stop using HCG. Besides increasing testosterone HCG has other benefits as well. A better sense of well being is one of them. I use 250IU HCG every other day.

I don't think your testosterone level is too high. With a trough of 982 and injecting twice a week I'd guess that your peak isn't more that about 1200 or so. I do think your E2 is too high. I don't know anything about aromasin so I won't comment on that dose, but you might try Arimidex. It is very effective.

It took me many years of TRT first with transdermals than finally injections with gradually increasing my dose until I finally feel well.

I guess I'm a more is better sort of person, but I have a hard time thinking that if a man doesn't have a good sex drive and erections that he should have less testosterone, like that is the solution.

I have strong erections every morning. If I notice they are getting week, then I will usually take a small amount of Arimidex, but I have to be cautious with it because it's easy to take too much and get E2 too low.

 

[kisaj]

There you have it, OP. We are all different. I get the same effects as BJE with a completely different protocol. Less test, no HCG, no Arimidex, and I add DHEA and pregnenolone. I'd feel like **** riding on 900 levels of test day to day. Neither of us are right or wrong, just different. Work with your endo/doc and trust the way you feel.

 

[BJE]

There you have it, OP. We are all different. I get the same effects as BJE with a completely different protocol. Less test, no HCG, no Arimidex, and I add DHEA and pregnenolone. I'd feel like **** riding on 900 levels of test day to day. Neither of us are right or wrong, just different. Work with your endo/doc and trust the way you feel.

To quote my doctor, we are treating the symptoms not the numbers.

 

[edmassa]

BJE thank you for your input. You also bring up some very valid points. I am hesitant to drop the hcg as it contributes a whole lot of benefits. It appears I need to up my aromasin dose or more importantly just start using it regularly. I hope someone knowledgeable of Aromasin can chime in here and help with the dosage. I used to take .5mg arimidex 2x week on 200mg test one shot and it had my estradiol at 17. Is there an equivelant dosage?

 

[edmassa]

kisaj doesnt dhea and pregnenelone raise e2 also?

 

[kisaj]

It can, but it doesn't always. You need to make sure you should take it and then monitor just like anything else. I just got labs done yesterday and I am right where I was last time before adding preg and DHEA.

Total Test - 697 Range 348-1197
Free- 19.1 Range 8.7-25.1 pg/mL
Pre- 15.9 Reference 7.6-42.6 pg/mL
Yesterday- 16.2

My DHEA levels went from

273 Range 31- 701 (ng/dL)
615 Range 31- 701 (ng/dL)

I forgot to mention that I do use 2 pumps a day of Formeron.

 

[edmassa]

kisaj those numbers do look very good I bet your feeling GREAT

 

[edmassa]

im using aromasin daily 12.5 mg day for a week in hopes of knocking my e2 down to about 15 hopefully and I hope that does the trick for my libido, mood etc.

This is a double edged sword because the ai in itself is a libido killer! I cant win

 

[FireRescue]

There you have it, OP. We are all different. I get the same effects as BJE with a completely different protocol. Less test, no HCG, no Arimidex, and I add DHEA and pregnenolone. I'd feel like **** riding on 900 levels of test day to day. Neither of us are right or wrong, just different. Work with your endo/doc and trust the way you feel.

I just wanted to comment that I thought this was an excellent post. Well said.

I agree with BJE, and I have heard Dr. Chrisler say it before, treat the symptoms. As mentioned there is no one size fits all and sometimes we need to be our own test subject.

HCG - This is something that I am personally on the fence about. For some I know it adds to their sense of well being. For some it leads to significant e2 sides. On paper it looks like every TRT patient should also be treated with HCG, but in vivo I am not 100% convinced that it is an absolute.

 

[edmassa]

firerescue we are in the same boat regarding hcg. It confuses the heck out of me.
positives:
ball size
maybe a sense of well being
makes the testes produce pregnenelone and other hormones

negatives:
e2 signifigantly rising
harder to dial in protocol

On one hand I feel if I drop the hcg I will be where I want e2 wise and can forgo an AI altogether
On the other hand I feel like if I drop it I would have to then dial in pregneneleone and dhea which I know jack about and also have a shrunken sack
I am thoroughly confused here

 

[BJE]

I just wanted to comment that I thought this was an excellent post. Well said.

I agree with BJE, and I have heard Dr. Chrisler say it before, treat the symptoms. As mentioned there is no one size fits all and sometimes we need to be our own test subject.

HCG - This is something that I am personally on the fence about. For some I know it adds to their sense of well being. For some it leads to significant e2 sides. On paper it looks like every TRT patient should also be treated with HCG, but in vivo I am not 100% convinced that it is an absolute.

I am not a patient of Dr. Crisler but I follow his protocol. I can't emphasize enough how much I feel that injections should be at least twice a week if not more often than that. I think it is the spike from a big injection that causes the E2 problem, not the overall dosage. Doing once a week 200mg injections I had to take a lot of Arimidex. When I switched to EOD I was able to cut my Arimidex to practically nothing. With 200mg test cyp per week divided and 250IU HCG EOD I only take .25mg Arimidex once or twice a week.

 

[FireRescue]

I am not a patient of Dr. Crisler but I follow his protocol. I can't emphasize enough how much I feel that injections should be at least twice a week if not more often than that. I think it is the spike from a big injection that causes the E2 problem, not the overall dosage. Doing once a week 200mg injections I had to take a lot of Arimidex. When I switched to EOD I was able to cut my Arimidex to practically nothing. With 200mg test cyp per week divided and 250IU HCG EOD I only take .25mg Arimidex once or twice a week.

I completely agree that with a 200g injection would have more aromitization and therefore cause a greater rise in e2 than 2 x 100mg injections.

I know chrisler is a fan of HCG and more frequent injecitons and he has mentioned that many of his patients can drop an AI completely when going to more frequent, smaller subQ administration of there T.

With that said, maybe the majority of people would not have have dramatic e2 issues with HCG assuming they are using smaller, more frequent, administrations of T?

Regardless, other than cosmetic reasons, I am still not sold on HCG being an absolute necessity particularly if the person is not interested in retaining the ability to have children.

 

[kisaj]

Just to be clear that I am not anti HCG, but I did not like it at all when I took it in the beginning of my journey. I had all the negative sides and none of the positive. I found this to be common amongst other people I know and concluded it was completely unnecessary. Some people here really like it and it seems to work well for them. So, my conclusion was wrong, but I still have no need for it.

You won't hurt yourself by trying it and seeing if it is for you.

 

[BJE]

I completely agree that with a 200g injection would have more aromitization and therefore cause a greater rise in e2 than 2 x 100mg injections.

I know chrisler is a fan of HCG and more frequent injecitons and he has mentioned that many of his patients can drop an AI completely when going to more frequent, smaller subQ administration of there T.

With that said, maybe the majority of people would not have have dramatic e2 issues with HCG assuming they are using smaller, more frequent, administrations of T?

Regardless, other than cosmetic reasons, I am still not sold on HCG being an absolute necessity particularly if the person is not interested in retaining the ability to have children.

I've been using HCG for over two years. I can't say I have had any side effects. From time to time I have experimented with dosage and have used as much as 500IU per day and I've noticed no ill effect.

What I have noticed is testicle size. Perhaps it doesn't bother some men, but I don't like looking at myself in the mirror after a shower and seeing my scrotum hanging empty and my small testicles drawn up tight. I like them to hang low and swing. I have tried HCG mono but it didn't get my level up high enough. I've been thinking about increasing my HCG and lowering my test dose but I'm doing well as I am so I probably shouldn't mess with a good thing.

 

[kisaj]

See, if I suffered from bad atrophy, I may have tried to see past the sides. Fortunately, I only lost about 25% of the size and I really couldn't care about my balls to begin with, so it is barely noticeable.

 

[LMuscle]

Perhaps it doesn't bother some men, but I don't like looking at myself in the mirror after a shower and seeing my scrotum hanging empty and my small testicles drawn up tight. I like them to hang low and swing.

Exactly, it looks terrible and isn't comfortable either. As far as aesthetics, it's like having a heavily muscled upper body, and chicken legs.

 

[kisaj]

LOL, I can't even imagine what you guys are going through.

 

[BJE]

LOL, I can't even imagine what you guys are going through.

Is that because you've never had shrunken nuts or because you don't understand what is bothersome about it. At any rate HCG keeps mine plump.

 

[kisaj]

No, I Just never experienced that. A very minor shrinking at most. My thinking might be different otherwise.

 

[edmassa]

Hate to bring this back up but are there any libido friendly aromatose inhibitors that would drop my estrogen from 38 to about 20 ideally . Aromasin knocks my stuff in the dirt even at 6.25 mg eod

 

[kisaj]

Formeron is ideal. I ride mid-high 20's and it drops it about 10-12 points. Aromasin dropped mine to single digits and messed up my libido.

 

[edmassa]

Sounds like good stuff may I ask how many pumps you use and once a day twice a day or what the dosing look like man

 

[kisaj]

2 pumps in the morning is all it takes. Guys riding high test doses are using upwards of 4. It's nice because you have more control and it won't crush you.

 

[edmassa]

Thanks man do you notice any side effects? Does it have any effect on shbg mine is low already and I know aromasin can lower it more that's one reason I'm looking for alternatives

 

[BJE]

Hate to bring this back up but are there any libido friendly aromatose inhibitors that would drop my estrogen from 38 to about 20 ideally . Aromasin knocks my stuff in the dirt even at 6.25 mg eod

Arimidex has not hurt my libido. I have generally high SHBG though so it might effect me differently than someone with low SHBG.

 

[kisaj]

Thanks man do you notice any side effects? Does it have any effect on shbg mine is low already and I know aromasin can lower it more that's one reason I'm looking for alternatives

Nothing other than smelling pretty for about 5 minutes after. As far as SHBG, I can't say if/how it may affect you if it is already low. Mine rides mid-mid low and I have no issues.