HCG monotherapy crazy high dose

[Umberto]

So the doc prescribed me HCG monotherapy after I told him clomid made me feel like death. But when I look up my prescription it says 3000 IUs three times a week. That just seems insanely high.... Like high enough to cause primary hypogonadism. So today I pick up my 50,000 IU script which wasn't cheap by the way. Its a shame so much will goto waste after I reconstitute it because theres no way im frying my Leydig cells with that high og a dose.
I need some real advice on dosage here guys. What say you????

 

[FireRescue]

I will admit that I am not familiar with HCG as a stand alone for HRT but I would not be comfortable with that much HCG per week.

 

[kisaj]

You are very likely to end up suffering from high e2 issues among other. That really sounds stupid and I'd be looking to just get on test.

 

[vassille]

So the doc prescribed me HCG monotherapy after I told him clomid made me feel like death. But when I look up my prescription it says 3000 IUs three times a week. That just seems insanely high.... Like high enough to cause primary hypogonadism. So today I pick up my 50,000 IU script which wasn't cheap by the way. Its a shame so much will goto waste after I reconstitute it because theres no way im frying my Leydig cells with that high og a dose.
I need some real advice on dosage here guys. What say you????

HCG is very missunderstood. I've seen so many protocols that makes my head spin. From my own experience here is what I think:
I've done dosages from 500iu to 5000iu in one shot. I've done it on cycle and off cycle.I've done low dose for 8 weeks and done higher dose for 4-6 weeks. To this day I do not experience any issues with HCG damaging anything. What happens after a certain dosage it just doesnt work anymore...much like if you take 300mg of test and get x results taking 600mg of test will not necessarely double that result. HCG is the same way. In that sense more is not better the nuts can only put out so much test at one time but saying that taking more HCG will damage leydig cells im sorry i just didnt experience anything like that.
I've done high dose HCG of 5000iu and when I dropped it to 1000iu was still working.
One thing though is that I never really stayed on HCG for a long period of time more than 2 months at any dosage. I would think that any issues may stem from long time use like years on it that would cause the sort of problems ppl claim HCG will do. Yet I have not seen conclusive proof.
As far as dosages is concerned I've routinely do 1000iu m/w/f without problems. I think 3000iu will only be warranted if your nuts operate at a lower capacity from the begining in which case you may need more HCG to stimulate them. I also believe at 250-500iu as a stand alone treatments is too low.
If ppl can provide bloodwork to prove me wrong then I'l stand corrected.

 

[Umberto]

Thanks for the info bro.
Did you experience any lethargy or anxiety on HCG???
Feeling funny after my first shot.
Had an initial burst of energy followed by lethargy that had me sleeping for 12 hours. I think my aromatase activity may be high. Need to lose some fat.
Also feeling jittery.
I don't know if to attribute this to the HCG.
My dose was 500 IU.
What was your experience on HCG....howd it make you feel?

 

[vassille]

I feel great nothing what you experiencing.
I feel normal when taking it but I also take a little AI to control any estrogen. High estrogen may cause some of the issue you listed.
Let it be for a week or two and see if it gets bettter. I will suggest geting some AI though.
Do you feel bloated?

 

[FireRescue]

Several guys have reported a better sense of well being on lower dosages of HCG. At 500IU I don't think you would need to be too concerned with a large amount of aromitization.

 

[Umberto]

No bloating as far as I can tell. But its only been two days. Maybe something to look out for.
By the way the belly sub q injection was a breeze. Was apprehensive as ive never stuck myself but I didnt even feek it.

 

[Umberto]

One thing to note I just realized. I didnt use any smokless tabacco yesterday and am trying to ween off.
My uncomfortableness may be a result of the lack of nicotine in my system or a combination of that and a new substance in my body.
Dont know why I didnt think of that.

 

[kisaj]

Thanks for the info bro.
Did you experience any lethargy or anxiety on HCG???
Feeling funny after my first shot.
Had an initial burst of energy followed by lethargy that had me sleeping for 12 hours. I think my aromatase activity may be high. Need to lose some fat.
Also feeling jittery.
I don't know if to attribute this to the HCG.
My dose was 500 IU.
What was your experience on HCG....howd it make you feel?

This is common. I experienced a great amount of lethargy and anxiety- and most of the people I know that tried it and dropped it had the same reaction. It did cause my e2 to skyrocket and even once that was controlled, I got nothing out of it. I think if someone wanted to try it to see if helped their sense of well being, then why not. But, for the small amount that it may help, to me, the sides are not worth it. There are many other ways to help with well being and mental aspects that are cheaper and work better.

 

[Umberto]

Kisaj,

So are you on trt now?
How would you rate the way test made you feel as far as energy and well being?
Are you having to take AI with your trt?

 

[kisaj]

I have been on TRT for about 2.5 years now. It's been nothing short of amazing once I got my protocol dialed in, which took about a year of experimenting with dosages and intervals along with labs. The problem I had at first was similar to many people in that I was getting over prescribed and too many things put in the mix. I was running 200mg a week with 500IU e3.5d HCG, and arimidex. I was a mess and it took a long time to straighten out. The first thing I did was drop the HCG, which immediately made things better. No more anxiety and bloating. Then I dropped the dose back to 150 and dropped the AI. That helped, but not enough. I eventually ended up where I am today at 60mg e3.5d and nothing else*.

*I am running Formeron right now and it is great, but I was suffering from some e2 issues from a blast I ran recently. I wanted to kick it in the but and this stuff is amazing. I may run it at a low dose because of the hardening and drying effect.

 

[vassille]

Everyone has different experiences. I feel fine on HCG but I feel like crap if I take HCG with test. After many years on test I started to feel like crap and when I switched to HCG for a while felt much better. One thing that Im not going to do any longer take HCG with test. I dont think is warranted to take both.

 

[Umberto]

Update:

Same reaction happened twice. A day after injecting HCG at 500 iu:
Extreme nauseau, severe headache and lethargy. Literally feel like a truck ran over me. I didnt like Clomid but this is much worse than Clomid.
Second time it was worse and I had to be taken to the ER. Still recovering with some Norco and Zofran.
**** HCG.

 

[vassille]

Sorry to hear that bro sounds like you allergic either to HCG or whatever they use to make it.

Have you ever used injectible steroids?

 

[FireRescue]

Wow....that is very surprising to hear. I'm glad to hear you are ok.

 

[kisaj]

That is very odd, but I do agree with your statement of **** HCG.

 

[vassille]

I was giving this thread a second thought and I wonder if this is not HCG ....Where did you buy this a compound pharmacy? Did it come premixed?
Can you give more info on how this HCG comes?
I have never heard anybody have this bad of a reaction to HCG!

 

[Umberto]

Yea bro compiunding pharmacy. I had the pounder in a vial and 30 ml of bacteriostatic water I mixed in.
The funny thing is that the same thing happened with both injections:
Initial burst of energy.
Starting to feel tired and go to sleep.
Wakeup and feel like I got ran over

 

[vassille]

I heard that compounding pharmacies do make mistakes and cut corners and it is possible that you didnt get HCG but something else or there were some impurities in your mix. Unless laws changed recently, these pharmacies are not regulated all that much.
I never used these pharmacies I always got original pharm HCG and never had an issue with it.

I also dont get a burst of energy either or get sleepy.

 

[Umberto]

Ive never used injectable steroids before.

The best thing I can compare my reaction to would be it felt like an extereme hangover.

This has got me feeling a little desperate as I has high hopes for HCG since clomid sucked for me.
The thing about trt that scares me is the fertility issue. We want to have kids. Last semen analysis actually came back normal/high normal even with my low T, 48 million and 52 motility, which is encouraging. Had bloodwork done 3 times in the last 4 months, testosterone was 244, 250, and 253 ng/dl. All consistant and low. FSH and LH both hover between 1.5 and 2 consistently so I guess my pituitary senses the 250 range testosterone to be normal, buy I dont!

Any advice here. Maybe some AI monotherapy. My E2 hovers around 30 so I could sacrifice some points there for a test boost. Im thinking even some Formeron and see how I react to it. Have seen positive growth in T levels from exepriences and logs here......

 

[kisaj]

It could be worth a shot. I love it at low doses and apparently it is anabolic at higher doses.

 

[vassille]

Ive never used injectable steroids before.

The best thing I can compare my reaction to would be it felt like an extereme hangover.

This has got me feeling a little desperate as I has high hopes for HCG since clomid sucked for me.
The thing about trt that scares me is the fertility issue. We want to have kids. Last semen analysis actually came back normal/high normal even with my low T, 48 million and 52 motility, which is encouraging. Had bloodwork done 3 times in the last 4 months, testosterone was 244, 250, and 253 ng/dl. All consistant and low. FSH and LH both hover between 1.5 and 2 consistently so I guess my pituitary senses the 250 range testosterone to be normal, buy I dont!

Any advice here. Maybe some AI monotherapy. My E2 hovers around 30 so I could sacrifice some points there for a test boost. Im thinking even some Formeron and see how I react to it. Have seen positive growth in T levels from exepriences and logs here......

what was your experience with clomid?

 

[vassille]

I only read about Formeron but I used aromasin which works. I dont have enough info on aromasin as alone therapy. I use it with HCG and it works but never tried it alone.
But there is avidence that lowering estrogen with aromasin does help your test levels.

 

[kisaj]

Probably because the estrogen is tied to your free test levels and lowering it raises your free?

 

[Umberto]

Probably because the estrogen is tied to your free test levels and lowering it raises your free?

Yep thats it and estrogen in 200x more suppressive than testosterone. In fact its the major hormone your hypothalumus is affected by (indirectly) that reduces LH and FSH output.

Testosterone is suppressive in of itself but to a much less degree than estrogen. Estrogen is much more "damaging" to the male endocrine system.

The way I visualize it is this:
High testosterone within high normal physiological levels wont be suppressive directly but will have more aromatase conversion which will increase circulating estrogen. This higher level of circulating estrogen will then trigger the hypothalumus to reduce LH and FSH output therby lowing T output by the Leydig cells.
From what ive read, without E conversion, testosterone doesnt start to become suppressive until you get well into the supra physiological range. Id imagine when youre seeing 2x-3x normal range.

 

[vassille]

Probably because the estrogen is tied to your free test levels and lowering it raises your free?

You absolutely right. I can feel a big difference with and without taking aromasin with HCG.

 

[kisaj]

I'd say it is much lower than that when introducing exogenous test because it is so common to hear about guys having e2 issues when they are even in the high normal range. Also, when adding this in, there is almost always going to be a period that is outside of normal limits and that is why so many of us feel better with lower, more frequent dosing. If someone is riding at 2x-3x normal, then I'd venture to guess that is a certainty there will be estrogen issues.

 

[vassille]

Yep thats it and estrogen in 200x more suppressive than testosterone. In fact its the major hormone your hypothalumus is affected by (indirectly) that reduces LH and FSH output.

Testosterone is suppressive in of itself but to a much less degree than estrogen. Estrogen is much more "damaging" to the male endocrine system.

The way I visualize it is this:
High testosterone within high normal physiological levels wont be suppressive directly but will have more aromatase conversion which will increase circulating estrogen. This higher level of circulating estrogen will then trigger the hypothalumus to reduce LH and FSH output therby lowing T output by the Leydig cells.
From what ive read, without E conversion, testosterone doesnt start to become suppressive until you get well into the supra physiological range. Id imagine when youre seeing 2x-3x normal range.

true you def hammering this home. Test becomes a problem past 1200ish to be general. I think when test gets high more aromatization occurs as a consequence and this is one part of a feedback mechanism because like you said as estrogen goes up test levels decline.

 

[Umberto]

You're right....

Something gets messed up along the way in our systems (most guys with hypogonadsim) where we tend to be much more estrogen sensitive and aromatase activity is higher than normal.

My theory is this is where most of the problems starts......problems with estrogen conversion since it is so much more suppressive.


Where do most problems guys on trt arise from? Libido, puffy nips, emotional instability...etc. Estrogen related.

 

[vassille]

unstable levels, the ups and downs from the injections are a problem. I also think that synthetic test does not work in the same manner as self produced test. I cant say for sure why but I feel a difference. As far as sides, at times all of the above if you dont monitor closely

 

[techlogik]

250 3/week would likely be good enough. There is no benefit to taking huge amounts of hCG per dose.

Start with that, get some labwork done to see where you are at after a week or two.

 

[Mr.TT]

OK, can I review the math on your HCG injection?

Your script was for 50,000 IUs. Was that all in one vial?
You mixed 30ml of water with the 50,000 IUs.
You injected HOW MANY ml of the 30ml HCG mix?????

To get a dose of 500 IUs, would have required 100th of the 30ml mix, or something like 3 x 10ths of a ml.

Just a side thought, HCG also increases you thyroid output...

 

[Umberto]

So I am on TRT now 200 mg a week and I decided to ret HCG again to keep the boys working.
Haven't had a physical negative reaction to HCG this time.
I think I got a bad batch the first time.
One thing I've noticed........anxiety and depression......It has to be E2 related at my high T (200 mg/w) dose plus HCG 250 mg 3x/W.
I would love to get off HCG as I noticed when I skipped a dose I felt better the next day......once again must be E2 related, but fertility is a BIG concern.
Also tried Arimidex, after 4 weeks on TRT and noticed I felt better. 2 days later feel like crap again, take another .5 mg of Arimidex and within an hour Im feeling better.

Now Im not a big fan of arimidex because I see no improvement in Libido and Libido/ED is still a problem. But for the mental benefits of lowering E I felt better.

I need to figure this out because Im seeing no sexual improvements and IT HAS TO BE E RELATED!

What T dose when combined with HCG?????

Again I need to maintain fertility so I think HCG has to stay in the mix at least in small doses. But this also comes with the Estrogen spike.

Has anyone been successful in finding the right T dose combined with HCG for extended periods of healthy libido/ no ED???? Will HCG cause E spikes on its own or even on reduced T doses??

Kisaj, bro I read your on 120 mg a week and doing great, can you tell me a little more about your struggle and finding the right protocol??

 

[abs322]

sounds like the doc made an error, maybe he meant to write 300 iu instead of 3000??