Pregnenalone or dhea with no trt

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Vinnyboombots View Post

    It is a SERM and it's very well known for raising testosterone levels
    Vinny, what are your thoughts on Nolvadex vs. Clomid for long term hrt? In some forums I'm hearing nolvadex better than clomid for my purposes. Thx.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by w8lifter View Post

    Vinny, what are your thoughts on Nolvadex vs. Clomid for long term hrt? In some forums I'm hearing nolvadex better than clomid for my purposes. Thx.
    Everything I have read about trt for people who are not ready or unwilling to use testosterone talk about clomid I've never seen them mention nolvadex.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by w8lifter View Post
    Vinny, what are your thoughts on Nolvadex vs. Clomid for long term hrt? In some forums I'm hearing nolvadex better than clomid for my purposes. Thx.
    I have only seen the one study using clomid for hrt. That being said I have seen one study comparing many popular SERMs and Tamoxifene had the largest testosterone increase among those compared ill see if I can find a link.
    ForeRunner Labs
    The Future of Human Performance
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/pics/229429-my-fat-mess.html

  4. Quote Originally Posted by harbonah View Post
    I have only seen the one study using clomid for hrt. That being said I have seen one study comparing many popular SERMs and Tamoxifene had the largest testosterone increase among those compared ill see if I can find a link.
    Sadly clomid was not compared.
    http://www.ergo-log.com/nolvabest.html
    ForeRunner Labs
    The Future of Human Performance
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/pics/229429-my-fat-mess.html

  5. Quote Originally Posted by harbonah View Post

    I have only seen the one study using clomid for hrt. That being said I have seen one study comparing many popular SERMs and Tamoxifene had the largest testosterone increase among those compared ill see if I can find a link.
    You're saying tamoxifen does a better job at raising testosterone levels than clomid? Most trt/hrt places use clomid including mine. Never heard of any using tamoxifen.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by harbonah View Post

    Sadly clomid was not compared.
    http://www.ergo-log.com/nolvabest.html
    Oh they didn't use clomid in the comparison study. Gotcha

  7. Apparently clomiphene is a serm targeting the hypothalamus and pituitary versus nolvadex which targets breast tissue. In this I can see clomid being more effective at stimulating lh and fsh for the testis to churn out natural test.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by w8lifter View Post
    Apparently clomiphene is a serm targeting the hypothalamus and pituitary versus nolvadex which targets breast tissue. In this I can see clomid being more effective at stimulating lh and fsh for the testis to churn out natural test.
    Agreed

  9. Quote Originally Posted by w8lifter View Post
    Apparently clomiphene is a serm targeting the hypothalamus and pituitary versus nolvadex which targets breast tissue. In this I can see clomid being more effective at stimulating lh and fsh for the testis to churn out natural test.
    Put simply no you are inaccurate when it comes to how tamoxifen works.
    SERM's that effect testosterone do so by tricking the hypothalamus into thinking there are fewer sex hormones circulating in the blood. and as a result the gland secretes more GnRH hormone which makes the body produce more LH, leading to stimulation of testosterone in the testes.
    See below for a good read on this subject.
    http://www.ergo-log.com/sermsinmen.html
    ForeRunner Labs
    The Future of Human Performance
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/pics/229429-my-fat-mess.html

  10. Quote Originally Posted by harbonah View Post
    Put simply no you are inaccurate when it comes to how tamoxifen works.
    SERM's that effect testosterone do so by tricking the hypothalamus into thinking there are fewer sex hormones circulating in the blood. and as a result the gland secretes more GnRH hormone which makes the body produce more LH, leading to stimulation of testosterone in the testes.
    See below for a good read on this subject.
    http://www.ergo-log.com/sermsinmen.html
    Call me old school....but I say Clomid for PCT/kickstarting the old testes, and nolvadex for gyno. This is how its always been, until recently when people started using nolvadex for PCT etc. And then there is torem which is something I've never even used or researched on.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by AnabolicHolic View Post
    Call me old school....but I say Clomid for PCT/kickstarting the old testes, and nolvadex for gyno. This is how its always been, until recently when people started using nolvadex for PCT etc. And then there is torem which is something I've never even used or researched on.
    Well you can stick with that and probably be safe as long as you have one of those 3 SERM's you are probably good. But I can say the research really does not support the idea of tamox vs clomid for recovery yet. Both have studies supporting their use as a means of increasing testosterone levels. I would live to see a study comparing the two and it may be out there I have just not seen it yet. I doubt you will find a study supporting either for gyno prevention.
    ForeRunner Labs
    The Future of Human Performance
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/pics/229429-my-fat-mess.html

  12. Quote Originally Posted by harbonah View Post
    Well you can stick with that and probably be safe as long as you have one of those 3 SERM's you are probably good. But I can say the research really does not support the idea of tamox vs clomid for recovery yet. Both have studies supporting their use as a means of increasing testosterone levels. I would live to see a study comparing the two and it may be out there I have just not seen it yet. I doubt you will find a study supporting either for gyno prevention.
    Nolva never helped me with my gyno, but then again it was pubertal gyno which is a bitch. But its supposed to have an affinity for breast tissue estrogen receptors, at least that is what is proposed.

  13. I guess the general consensus is that clomid is a better non-testosterone HRT protocol then using pregnenalone and or DHEA. What I'm hearing is to use clomid along with anastrozole in mild dosage. I guess the question now is, is it okay to use this protocol long-term or not?
    I will take this up with my endocrinologist at our next meeting.
    Thank you all for your input.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by w8lifter View Post
    I guess the general consensus is that clomid is a better non-testosterone HRT protocol then using pregnenalone and or DHEA. What I'm hearing is to use clomid along with anastrozole in mild dosage. I guess the question now is, is it okay to use this protocol long-term or not?
    I will take this up with my endocrinologist at our next meeting.
    Thank you all for your input.
    If you take that approach make sure you have your doctor check your Liver lipid profile regularly.
    ForeRunner Labs
    The Future of Human Performance
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/pics/229429-my-fat-mess.html

  15. Quote Originally Posted by AnabolicHolic View Post
    Nolva never helped me with my gyno, but then again it was pubertal gyno which is a bitch. But its supposed to have an affinity for breast tissue estrogen receptors, at least that is what is proposed.
    While I cant seem to find any study in the use of either to prevent gyno, tamoxifen seems to be a better treatment for existing
    gynecomastia then Clomiphene at least that is what these two studies would suggest. I would suggest looking into anastrozole for gynecomastia treatment instead though I believe it shows more promises even in cases of puberty induced gynecomastia and much quicker results as I think the tamoxifen studies were ran up to 6 months and may have required more time.


    tamoxifen vs clomiphene
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3526085
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2361692/

    anastrozole

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15273427
    ForeRunner Labs
    The Future of Human Performance
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/pics/229429-my-fat-mess.html

  16. Well - I got some of my new labs back. My previous results were obtained while taking 25mg Clomid every day. These results are after I have dropped the clomid to 25mg M, W, F (last two months) and added in two tablets of PES Erase every day (one Month now). I dont have full labs yet but here goes:

    The good news (note these are Canada so reference range and units may be different than those you are used to in USA)

    Liver Enzymes
    ALT 25 U/L range 1 - 60
    GGT 16 U/L range 11-63
    Lipids
    Total Cholesterol 4.13 mmol/L (range 4.2 - 5.2)
    Triglycerides 0.58 mmol/L (range 0.60-2.30)
    HDL 1.46 mmol?L (range >=0.91)
    LDL 2.40 mmol/L (range 2.2 - 3.4)

    The Not-So-Good News

    Endocrine

    Cortisol AM 596 nmol/l (range 200 - 690)
    Estradiol 172 pmol/L (range 0 - 160)
    LH 11 IU/L (range 1 - 9)
    Progesterone 2.7 nmol/L (range 0 - 3.0)
    Total Testosterone 20.5 nmol/L (range 8.0 - 29.0)

    I have no results yet for SHBG, Free Testosterone, BioAvailable Testosterone. DHEA-S, or IGF-1

    SO ... the PES Erase has seemingly done virtually nothing for my estradiol - if anything my ratio of total testosterone to estradiol has gotten worse in the one month I have been taking Erase. My Testosterone numbers could have been a bit lower on this morning for a number of reasons
    (1 - this test was done while fasted as required for lipids test, previous test was not
    2 - I was up really early (5 AM ) and test was done at 7:30 - previous test was done 1 hr after waking or so
    3 - I went jogging that morning - something I did not do before the previous test)

    Lipids numbers are a bit low on Triglycerides and Total Cholesterol - which is interesting as I eat a lot of fat ( typical breakfast is 3 egss, 4 oz steak and a sweet potato, all fried in a Tablespoon of coconut oil). I think these are healthy numbers none the less - and HDL is rocking

    Progesterone back down into normal ranges - was high when I was on clomid every day

    ALT and GGT suggest liver function is good - which I really wanted to know as my SHBG has been running very high and I had heard that it could be because of liver distress. I think that these numbers would suggest I am not having a liver distress issue.

    Looks like my next step is to get a better anti-estrogen than Erase. The online pharma I use has Armidex (anstrozole) but not Aromasin (exemestane) so that seems to make that decision for me.

    Recommendations - 0.25 mg Armidex every two days or every three days to start ?

  17. Quote Originally Posted by haritec View Post
    Well - I got some of my new labs back. My previous results were obtained while taking 25mg Clomid every day. These results are after I have dropped the clomid to 25mg M, W, F (last two months) and added in two tablets of PES Erase every day (one Month now). I dont have full labs yet but here goes:

    The good news (note these are Canada so reference range and units may be different than those you are used to in USA)

    Liver Enzymes
    ALT 25 U/L range 1 - 60
    GGT 16 U/L range 11-63
    Lipids
    Total Cholesterol 4.13 mmol/L (range 4.2 - 5.2)
    Triglycerides 0.58 mmol/L (range 0.60-2.30)
    HDL 1.46 mmol?L (range >=0.91)
    LDL 2.40 mmol/L (range 2.2 - 3.4)

    The Not-So-Good News

    Endocrine

    Cortisol AM 596 nmol/l (range 200 - 690)
    Estradiol 172 pmol/L (range 0 - 160)
    LH 11 IU/L (range 1 - 9)
    Progesterone 2.7 nmol/L (range 0 - 3.0)
    Total Testosterone 20.5 nmol/L (range 8.0 - 29.0)

    I have no results yet for SHBG, Free Testosterone, BioAvailable Testosterone. DHEA-S, or IGF-1

    SO ... the PES Erase has seemingly done virtually nothing for my estradiol - if anything my ratio of total testosterone to estradiol has gotten worse in the one month I have been taking Erase. My Testosterone numbers could have been a bit lower on this morning for a number of reasons
    (1 - this test was done while fasted as required for lipids test, previous test was not
    2 - I was up really early (5 AM ) and test was done at 7:30 - previous test was done 1 hr after waking or so
    3 - I went jogging that morning - something I did not do before the previous test)

    Lipids numbers are a bit low on Triglycerides and Total Cholesterol - which is interesting as I eat a lot of fat ( typical breakfast is 3 egss, 4 oz steak and a sweet potato, all fried in a Tablespoon of coconut oil). I think these are healthy numbers none the less - and HDL is rocking

    Progesterone back down into normal ranges - was high when I was on clomid every day

    ALT and GGT suggest liver function is good - which I really wanted to know as my SHBG has been running very high and I had heard that it could be because of liver distress. I think that these numbers would suggest I am not having a liver distress issue.

    Looks like my next step is to get a better anti-estrogen than Erase. The online pharma I use has Armidex (anstrozole) but not Aromasin (exemestane) so that seems to make that decision for me.

    Recommendations - 0.25 mg Armidex every two days or every three days to start ?
    I too had no results with ERASE. So I got Anastrozole (Aromatraz - Google it) online for very good price, no scrip needed.

    General consensus seems to suggest .25 mg eod. I'm taking that amount right now with 100 mg e7d test cyp.

    In about one month I will cease taking exogenous testosterone and will instead use clomid for HRT along with mild dose of anastrozole.

  18. Running that morning and not eating could have had a negative impact on coritsol.

  19. If Arimidex is out of stock, and Exemestane is available.....what are the comparable dosages as compared to arimidex? I've never used Aromasin before, so I am totally unsure on the dosing of this stuff. the pills are 25mg though. I suppose splitting one in 1/4's and taking MWF plus Sat Night would be EOD at 6.5Xmg, a pill per week.
    Sucks that erase is so ineffective though.....you figure it would have some effect, especially for guys raising up into the 700-900 range on trt. Not like there is so much aromatization that it overwhelms the erase (like at >1500 with guys at 500mg+ test a week), it should be able to handle that. oh well.
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