Pregnenalone or dhea with no trt
06-22-2013 02:31 PM
I just use my GP and he will give me whatever I tell him I need....if not then i'll get a referral to and endo and tell him what I need. Yes I do know more about this stuff than my doctor and probably most endo's in my area, sad but true. I do need them to write the script though...unfortunately. If the OP does not have enough funds to see a doctor and get a script, or get on TRT (test is pretty cheap at the pharmacy....the gels are ultra expensive), well he probably doesn't have the funds to play around with RC clomid and the before and after blood tests right? the bloods are the most expensive part of the whole TRT/Clomid deal actually....doctors visits are expensive but not that much of a financial burden. Then you have a 6 month script for test or a script for clomid. You can get generics which will probably cost less than the damn RC clomid......
06-22-2013 02:38 PM
You know what I can respect that response it was logical and conscious. And I agree blood work can run up a cost its about $100 a pop at local labs near me other then ones I have people for, but I have kind of an inside deal there so its not really fair to compare. Also pharma clomid last time I imported cost about $50 for a 6 month supply. So it does not have to cost much vs doc visit and script cost.
Originally Posted by AnabolicHolic
RC might not always be the best option but its sometimes the only option someone has can we agree on that?
The Future of Human Performance
06-22-2013 02:49 PM
Right, all you have is the doctors visit cost. RC clomid cost vs. generic clomid cost is comparable.....bloods are expensive of course, and you need at least two, whether going about it on your own or under a doctors supervision....but yes, if you can't find a doctor that will prescribe clomid then you would need to go the RC or overseas pharma route. Personally? for a clomid run that will dictate the fate of my endogenous test levels, and if I get on TRT or just stay natural, I just could not play russian roulette with RC's. I gotta know that its from the pharmacy and I used legit stuff. And yes, there are tons of fake Rx making their way into our US pharmacy's as you alluded too (It's getting worse by the month)....but I doubt its anywhere near as prevalent as underdosed or mislabeled or just plain bunk RC clomid. I don't trust these places for the most part, that is just me. Esp the liquid companies, the capsule places I have had more success with (for caber and cialis etc).....again just my opinion.
Originally Posted by harbonah
06-23-2013 11:07 AM
What's with the name calling?
Originally Posted by AnabolicHolic
06-23-2013 12:57 PM
Further proof I am dealing with children, this clown ^^^ takes the time to neg rep me three times...which means he had to go around and positive a few dozen people in the meanwhile hahahaha. Act like a preteen girl on the internet much? People like this ruin this type of sub-forum, he has absoulutely no knowledge of TRT or anti-aging...yet he must make stupid comments and then run around like its facebook leaving nasty comments when called out on it! WOW! Its not even worth helping people out and/or correcting misinformation.....
06-24-2013 05:13 PM
Well this thread kinda got hijacked by AnabolicHolic and his rant against research meds and you must see a TRT doctor. Most TRT doctors wont even try chlomid - at least not in Canada - it is an off-label application of the drug to raise male Testosterone. It is easily and inexpensively available via mail order though it did take me a couple of tries to find a reliable offshore pharma that actually delivered - and it does require some experimentation to get to the right dose rates but can be effective in raising testosterone even in older men ( Anabolic seemed to imply that since he was older there was no point trying). This is a copy of a post I have in another place on this forum. For information purposes only because harbonah rightly brought up Chlomid as an option to raise testosterone that may be more effective than DHEA/Pregnelone.
This is a long post - if you want the summary:
Look into Chlomid - seriously. If your balls and pituatary are still capable of working properly - Chlomid can dramatically raise testosterone levels with minimal side effects if the dose rate is kept low. Research seems to indicate it is safe for long term use at low dose rates.
I am a 53 yr old male - who had simlar problems. Low testosterone - did the full gamet of testing- no observable problems with LH FSH thyroid etc. I could write for hours about this - but spent about a year and a half trying many of the products sold on fitness websites to increase test (Tribulus, longjack, DAA, Fenugreek, Forskoli etc) with no substantial effect. I can post labs over several years if one is interested.
In late December 2012, I recieved some generic chlomid from an online pharmacy - the first two I tried never delivered - the third one did and has subsequently been very reliable. Generic Chlomid is cheaper to take than any of the supplements listed above. In just six weeks, my total, free and bioavailable testosterone went up by over 70 %, taking 25 mg chlomid every other day.
Here were my thoughts on the results ( copying this from another bulletin board I posted on)
1) Pituitary seems to be working as the chlomid drove up LH and FH
2) Balls seem to be working as Testosterone and Free Testosterone went up 70 %
3) Estrogen getting pretty high
4) Thyroid is OK - actually getting better as tests proceed (added iodized salt back into diet and taking thyroid glandular)
5) Sudden sharp drop in AM cortisol is disconcerting - wonder if it was side effect of chlomid
I increased the dose of chlomid to 25 mg every day - and retested in April. HEre is what I posted on other log. Big thing is my Testosterone was up to top of reference range and Bio-available had increased dramatically.
Just a brief update - been on Chlomid for over three months now. Somethings going very well - others need a bit of work yet. I have been avoiding adding an anti-aromatase but looks like I may not be able to get around it. Recent labs
Cortisol 688 (range 200- 690 nmol/L)
Way better than last test result - may have been an anomaly as is consistent with previous test from December.
Total Testosterone 28.3 (range 8.0 - 29.0 nmol/L) Well can't complain
Estradiol 184 (range 0 - 160 pmol/L ) This one I need to work on yet
Progesterone 3.7 (range 0 - 3.0 nmol/L)
Free Testosterone 451 (range 175 - 700 pmol/L) More than double the numbers I used to get
SHBG 60 (range 10 - 55 nmol/L) would love to see this down - but maybe because of high estrogen so anti-aromatase?
DHEA-S 8.4 (range 2.2 - 13.0 umol/L)
BioAvail Testosterone 9.2 (range 4.0 to 16.0) NICE- was below reference range in October
Both Bio Avail and Free Testosterone will of course improve if I can get SHBG down.
Here is a major problem - first time ever tested for Vit D and I take about 3000 IUs daily
Vitamin D 80.5 (range 80 - 200)
Maybe I am a poor absorber - have added a second source (pills in the morning - liquid Vit D in evening ) and taking 6-7000 IU and am going to see how it goes.
All in all - I am very pleased with being on Chlomid. I upped my dose in February from 25 mg EOD to 25 mg daily. I am going to cut back to 25 EOD again and see where I stabilize - figuring the lower dose rate will reduce side effects. Going to try some natural anti-aromatase first before trying other approaches.
I feel better - am more positive, good morning wood, can concentrate better and am seeing some body recomposition that is favorable. So far - the experiment for me has been a success - your mileage may vary. I figure for a 53 yr old guy to get his total T up to 800 with just a SERM is pretty good results.
The high estrogen numbers and fact I had hit the top of scale on Total T made me cut back the chlomid again - so since that time I have been taking 25 mg on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. I have added in 2 pills daily of PES Erase to try to lower estrogen for the last 3-4 weeks. I feel great and have the best morning erections I have had for years - which is usually a good sign that testosterone and estrogen are in balance. I am going to see my doctor and get more bloodwork done in about 10 days.
There are a number of good studies online about Chlomid and long term use in Men for low testosterone - learn to use pubmed is well worth it. Anyways - here is info from one - Title says it all.
Clomiphene citrate is safe and effective for long-term management of hypogonadism.
Moskovic DJ, Katz DJ, Akhavan A, Park K, Mulhall JP.
Sexual & Reproductive Medicine Program, Urology Service, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, New York, NY, USA.
To assess the efficacy and safety of long-term clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in symptomatic patients with hypogonadism (HG).
PATIENTS AND METHODS:
Serum T, oestradiol and luteinizing hormone (LH) were measured in patients who were treated with CC for over 12 months. Additionally, bone densitometry (BD) results were collected for all patients. Demographic, comorbidity, treatment and Androgen Deficiency in Aging Men (ADAM) score data were also recorded. Comparison was made between baseline and post-treatment variables, and multivariable analysis was conducted to define predictors of successful response to CC. The main outcome measures were predictors of response and long-term results with long-term CC therapy in hypogonadal patients.
The 46 patients (mean age 44 years) had baseline serum testosterone (T) levels of 228 ng/dL. Follow-up T levels were 612 ng/dL at 1 year, 562 ng/dL at 2 years, and 582 ng/dL at 3 years (P < 0.001). Mean femoral neck and lumbar spine BD scores improved significantly. ADAM scores (and responses) fell from a baseline of 7 to a nadir of 3 after 1 year. No adverse events were reported by any patients.
Clomiphene citrate is an effective long-term therapy for HG in appropriate patients. The drug raises T levels substantially in addition to improving other manifestations of HG such as osteopenia/osteoporosis and ADAM symptoms.
06-24-2013 05:24 PM
haritec good info, I wanna go buy some clomid now!!
06-24-2013 05:26 PM
And I've got just the right research place to buy it from!! LOL
06-24-2013 08:24 PM
I won't quote that LOOOOOOOOOOONG winded post....but you know who you are........
Firstly, you validated my postings in this thread by saying that you had a hit or miss experience even ORDERING and RECEIVING the "chlomid"...never mind the fact you just as well as could have actually received it and got bunk stuff. Thanks.
Secondly, It's my personal decision (opinion) to use doctor prescribed HRT/TRT (or "chlomid" therapy). Don't hate bro as well its (again) my choice to just jump on TRT if I feel my age is great enough that most of us at that age won't respond to clomid (I'll stop with the h now). And as a little FYI, clomid ED for life essentially (which seems to be what you are advocating here being on 3 months and tinkering with future dosing) would make 99% of men into whiny bitches 24/7 365 and probably make many suicidal (not even joking), this not taking into consideration the other sides. Sorry you can't dictate what I do or what I post....if you don't like it, I guess its tough titties for you. thanks again.
This is sad that there are so many people in here with shyt attitudes, and so many people with no knowledge about anything to do with this forum giving advice. The one place you figure to not find random numbskulls giving advice would be in an anti-aging forum.....the trolls have filtered into this forum as well. Why anybody not on TRT or any anti-aging protocol feels the need to bring their 20 something year old azz in here and "give advice" is beyond me. I never even though to do that in my 20's......
06-24-2013 08:51 PM
Vida's right. You do like to call people names.
Originally Posted by AnabolicHolic
06-24-2013 09:59 PM
well if they piss me off or call me names (your pal vida inferred that I did not have the intelligence to "find a legit RC source" in his condescending and sarcastic post to me, that had nothing to do with my actual point btw)....then maybe they get called a name. I am sick and tired of arguing about fcking RC clomid right about now, but there seems to be an RC clomid warrior posting about every 12 hours for some reason. I guess RC clomid carries a lot of clout around here LMFAO.....
Originally Posted by Bigchourico
06-25-2013 11:10 AM
Anabolic - First I am going to agree with you, Then I am going to disagree with you, then I am going to ignore you in this thread unless it is comments that address the original posters question ( If I can't get TRT - what do I do)
I agree - if you have a GP or a TRT doctor who is open to all means of hormonal modulation, be it SERMS, HCG, T-Gels, Shots etc - of course you should get all your meds through your doctor and via prescription pharmacies. Many doctores (at least here in canada) won't go the Chlomid / HCG path as it is not approved by the sanctioned bodies.
I disagree regarding chlomid sides - whiny bitch mode happens in some who are very estrogen sensitive or who are taking too much clomid. Many people using it in PCT are taking 50 or 100 mg daily. I have no whiny bitch mode - if anything more testosterone aggressive assertive effects. And as I said, I am 53, not a 20 something - though many 20 somethings know more than me or you about this subject. I cited the medical study done by doctors at Sloan Kettering above - in which they saw no adverse side effects in a controlled study. I am taking 25 mg 3 times a week - and hope to be able to reduce it to 12.5 mg 3 times a week and still get a substantial testosterone increase, without having to go to exogenous testosterone.
Interesting comments from an MD
The 5 Main Reasons Clomiphene Citrate (Clomid) May be a Good Alternative to Testosterone Replacement Therapy in Men with Low Testosterone Due to Secondary Hypogonadism:
1.Clomiphene citrate stimulates the body's own production of testosterone
2.Clomiphene citrate doesn't interfere with the body's checks and balances of testosterone
3.Clomiphene citrate comes as a pill easily administered by mouth
4.Clomiphene citrate is generic and very cheap
5.Clomiphene citrate has little side-effects and low risk of developing these side-effects
The 5 MainR easons Clomiphene Citrate (Clomid) is Not Usually Prescribed to Men with Low Testosterone Due to Secondary Hypogonadism:
1. Most doctors aren't aware of the efficacy and safety of clomiphene use in men
2. Most doctors think of Clomid as a "women's drug" to increase fertility
3. Clomid isFDA approved only for use in women
4. Clomid use in men is considered "off label"
5.Clomiphene citrate is now generic and really inexpensive so it's not advertised very much
so ... IF one does NOT have access to a GP or TRT doctor who will provide them a prescription for chlomid, one may still consider purchasing generic chlomid via mail order ( i prefer this route over research chemicals). If one is going to do so, it would be recommended to have a source for regular blood tests lined up - at least Total Testosterone, SHBG and Estradiol - to see what effect the dose one is taking is having. I have found a doctor who does my testing regularly so I can modify dose, add other supplements for estrogen control and see the effects, and one can purchase online salivat testing or blood testing (ZRTlabs or LEF.org come to mind)
Since the original poster said "If I'm not able to get TRT" one must assume he is asking about solutions that don't directly require a doctor's prescription (hence research chemicals coming into the discussion), not about your personal choice and good fortune to have a great GP that is very helpful for you.
06-25-2013 11:58 AM
A good description of the alternatives - from the blog of Dr Shira Miller - who is an anti-aging TRT doc and was voted one of 16 "docs to watch" in 2012. Underline is mine.
With traditional testosterone replacement therapy, the brain (hypothalamus and pituitary) gets the message that there is plenty of testosterone being made in the testes, so much so that it doesn't need to make anymore. Subsequently, the pituitary stops producing LH, and the natural production of testosterone (and sperm) in the testes ceases, which is why traditional testosterone replacement results in testicular shrinkage and low sperm count...a man's testosterone and sperm manufacturing plant is essentially shut off.
Clomiphene citrate and/or HCG do not turn off the testosterone manufacturing plant but rather turn it back on or reboot it. While some hypogonadal men require continuous use of clomiphene, for others it can be used for a 3-6 month time period and then discontinued. And, the checks and balances system is not interrupted, so there aren't the testosterone replacement side-effects which occur due to intentional or unintentional testosterone overdosing. Most interestingly, although it used to be thought that clomiphene and/or HCG only worked on young men, in the past decade or so it has been used effectively in older men too.
06-25-2013 02:00 PM
I agree with all that.....esp the low dose MWF clomid protocol. if that is an effective dose it will negate any adverse side effects. I'm still not sold on taking clomid for life though....I'd opt for test 4 life if i was going to be taking something that long term. but yeah i can see taking clomid in that dosing protocol being a viable option for many guys. I also agree about choosing overseas pharmacy tabs to the RC crap ....but these pharms are also hit or miss as i have alluded to before. Will you receive your shipment? will it be bunk? is it accurately dosed? As you say though if you are in a predicament where your doc won't prescribe it for you (an anti-aging doc will most likely btw...) you can always use trial and error using various non-rx clomid options while getting bloods to see if its legit or not.
06-25-2013 02:41 PM
I am just going to toss a brand name out there I hope I am not breaking any rules if so mod please delete and I apologize.
Originally Posted by AnabolicHolic
If you go with a major brand for instance from India like "Cooper" "I left out part of the name to be safe" you will get a drug that has passed that counties own version of the FDA the chances of you getting a fake are about equal to CVS giving you a fake maybe slightly higher but odds are in your favor here. I am not trying to beat a dead horse here but I just do not think there is any reason at all to worry if you are ordering a legitimate over seas brand name.
FYI this is not sourcing as they will not sell to you directly its a manufacture/distributor.
The Future of Human Performance
06-25-2013 02:45 PM
Mr.Cooper sells clomid? Then I bet its legit!
06-25-2013 02:47 PM
I do know Mr. Cooper is a smart man and if he was selling clomiphene it would be legitimate.
Originally Posted by Vinnyboombots
The Future of Human Performance
06-25-2013 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by harbonah
06-25-2013 03:14 PM
I see my naturopath today who will likely give me a req for a new round of testing. This will be after about 6 months total on chlomid at various dose rates - the last two months have been 25 mg ever Monday Wednesday Friday. I have also been doing two tabs of PES erase a day for about a month. Should get the bloodwork results in the next week or two and will post how it is going. I suspect the PES erase has not been enough to get my estrogen fully in check - morning wood and libido (crack of dawn gets me hard) but would have expected a bit more body recomp / drying out if it was doing what I hoped for.
Will post results synopsis when I have it.
Question - if one has to go with a prescription aromatase inhibitor - any recommendations regarding exemestane or armidex ? Armidex is cheap and I can get easily - but has more lipid profile issues I think. Exemestane has been hard for me to find and is substantially more expensive when I do, but less lipid issues and apparently increases growth hormone as well. Apologies to orignial poster - here I talk about hijacking thread and now I am hijacking it for myself - although - he did mention an anti-aromatase in his orignal post so kind of on topic.
06-25-2013 09:37 PM
I also have been taking either A) one PES Erase Pro or B) one OG Erase morning and one night. I'd like to see what difference the 2x a day with the OG Erase makes when you find out. I am using Androgel for TRT at 11-12 pumps a day....I was at 687 test level at 8 pumps (2 pumps in the groin area mind you, probably 100% DHT conversion) So i extrapolate from those #'s that I'd be up in the 900's??? So similar to your #'s on clomid if you are in the 800's from what I read??? I'll probably get blood work done soon and let the doc know I was applying extra pumps since I had extra pumps laying around....he actually recommended to me to apply extra pumps "when I needed a boost", I assume a sexual boost? He said he did it all the time with his testim lol. I will probably go with one Erase Pro per day when the OG Erase runs out. And we go off tangent on threads all the time on this board, matter of fact most of the good info comes on off-topic posts by members on threads that have nothing to do with the original topic posted.
Originally Posted by haritec
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