Normal T, low Free T, High SHBG - TRT or not?

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  1. Normal T, low Free T, High SHBG - TRT or not?


    As I posted on before with other updated markers, the issue of normal T, low free T, elevated SHBG remains unresolved:

    (since I am unable to post a link, please put the www before this link):
    thinksteroids.com/forum/mens-health-forum/mcs5309s-lab-updates-t4-134331531.html#post850826

    STATS:
    Age: 53
    Ht: 5-7
    Wt: 178
    BF%: 22%

    Estradiol: 10 [3-70]
    Total T: 632.4 [348-1197] - NOT ON TRT
    Free T: 8.7 (L) [9.0-46.0]
    W. Bound T: 55.0 [40.0-250.0]
    SHBG: 66.8 [19.3-76.4]


    Again, doc suggested a liver cleanse and to start TRT to bring up free T.

    In the meantime, I have started Divanex and Activate Extreme to help boost free T and reduce SGBH.

    Another things to keep in mind is that the thyroid hormone (especially T3) I have been running can elevate SHBG.

    One of my docs doesn't put much weight on FT and uses TT exclusively to monitor. Many don't agree with his assessment free testosterone, and that it's a "small part" of the total testosterone signal thing.

    For me, the decision to move ahead cautiously with TRT I still ponder because my sexual function is fine, so why mess with that. OTOH, if you look at my low free T, age, and inability to recomp no matter how hard I train and eat clean, TRT seems like the missing link.

    So, the question is whether I should I take my other doc's advice and try TRT.


  2. Where is your LH?
    The Labcorp E2 (3-70) test is inaccurate. Spend $50 on PrivateMDlabs FEMALE HORMONE panel.

    I went to your posted link...... Great labs......How much SRT3 were you taking??
    Where was your TSH before you strarted SRT3 thyroid supplements?

    IMO you tested the T4 way too soon, I would give it two months to equalize.

    I have used T4, T3, NDT, and I have high SHBG, also. And so far I have not found an
    effective way to lower SHBG without killing TT.

    My favorite thyroid link.....tiredthyroid.com/rt3.html
    •   
       


  3. Find.out why shbg is high other wise you.may be shooting yourself in the foot. Does MCS stand.for multiple chemical sensitivity? if.it does.a lot of these cases Both Male and female i ran into had high shbg. high shbg is usually due to.impacted liver or.gi function. Once one identify these imbalances shbg tends to.return.to.normal.levels over time. Past or current .medications, poor.lifestyle choices from.years ago,.acetylaldehydes from candidate, elevated xenoestrogens or estradiol levels can also.impact shbg. Common occurrence I see in Dr patients is NASH.which gets highly.over looked.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  4. I'd further investigate the liver and reason why SHBG is high.
    If you dont have a good reason to go on TRT then try to lower your SHBG and take it from there.
    I think at this point in your life is more of a lifestyle choice rather than medical reason. If you can bring your free T up a bit then no need for TRT.
    On the other hand if you want to get more active in the gym then by all means indulge in the TRT.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    I'd further investigate the liver and reason why SHBG is high.
    If you dont have a good reason to go on TRT then try to lower your SHBG and take it from there.
    I think at this point in your life is more of a lifestyle choice rather than medical reason. If you can bring your free T up a bit then no need for TRT.
    On the other hand if you want to get more active in the gym then by all means indulge in the TRT.
    Other than the T3, I do not know why SHBG would be elevated. I am taking both milk thistle and chlorella to help cleanse the liver. My diet is very clean. VLC paleo. Other than reducing calories far below RMR and looking at TRT as a lean mass preserver and as a lypolitic, I don't know what else I can do to substantially reduce bf.
    •   
       


  6. Sometimes the cause of this elevated SHBG is inflamation and/or fatty liver. Even drinking green tea or cofffee will elevated it. Paleo diet is good start but I think you also need to look into insulin resistance. If the balance between lipids in the blood is off that's a clue that the liver is dumping fat into the blood stream upseting the balance. Stick with the T3 as it revs up the cell production of ATP and it also absorbs the fat from the blood and use it for energy. Once the balance is restored the liver should start working more efficient and within parameters.
    Also, avoid grains like the plague. A leaky gut will cause all sorts of issues with the liver as well.
    Stick with paleo for a while is not an easy fix.
    How much T3 are you taking and how are you lipid numbers looking like?

  7. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Sometimes the cause of this elevated SHBG is inflamation and/or fatty liver. Even drinking green tea or cofffee will elevated it. Paleo diet is good start but I think you also need to look into insulin resistance. If the balance between lipids in the blood is off that's a clue that the liver is dumping fat into the blood stream upseting the balance. Stick with the T3 as it revs up the cell production of ATP and it also absorbs the fat from the blood and use it for energy. Once the balance is restored the liver should start working more efficient and within parameters.
    Also, avoid grains like the plague. A leaky gut will cause all sorts of issues with the liver as well.
    Stick with paleo for a while is not an easy fix.
    How much T3 are you taking and how are you lipid numbers looking like?
    I do have NAFLD, dx'd 3 years ago. Never knew I had it. Am on VLC paleo now for a year + keto + IF. Lipids - elevated LDL-P, apo B, Lp(a), TC, TRIGs and HDL ok. VLC paleo can purge the liver of FFAs, especially with NAFLD. I consume <30g carbs daily and only eat a small handful of berries occasionally. T3 is now @ 25mcg, was @ as high as 100mcg which produced hyperthyroid symptoms and caused hypercoagulation resulting in 2 blood clots (not well-known, but shown in several thrombotic studies), so, I must not overdo T3. Was on sustained-release T3 for over 2 years which did little until I stared straight T3 and then added T4 which I had to stop after 2 mos. Am considering adding a small dose of natural dessicated thyroid. Am in the process of re-evaluating all labs since hemostasis caused from too much thyroid may have altered many of my lab values including CRP. I avoid all grains, soy, cow's milk products, alcohol, yeast. I take DGL & glutamine as a prophylaxis against LGS. BTW, my T4 level is almost non-existent although I don't know if this makes any difference.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Find.out why shbg is high other wise you.may be shooting yourself in the foot. Does MCS stand.for multiple chemical sensitivity? if.it does.a lot of these cases Both Male and female i ran into had high shbg. high shbg is usually due to.impacted liver or.gi function. Once one identify these imbalances shbg tends to.return.to.normal.levels over time. Past or current .medications, poor.lifestyle choices from.years ago,.acetylaldehydes from candidate, elevated xenoestrogens or estradiol levels can also.impact shbg. Common occurrence I see in Dr patients is NASH.which gets highly.over looked.
    MCS are my initials. I have NAFLD which is related to NASH. I am taking tons of choline, milk thistle, chlorella, eat VLC paleo (<35g daily), IF, keto. Also am taking stinging nettles Dinavil to help reduce SHBG. This is my first line of fire before resorting to anything else. E2 is actually depressed!

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.TT View Post
    Where is your LH?
    The Labcorp E2 (3-70) test is inaccurate. Spend $50 on PrivateMDlabs FEMALE HORMONE panel.

    I went to your posted link...... Great labs......How much SRT3 were you taking??
    Where was your TSH before you strarted SRT3 thyroid supplements?

    IMO you tested the T4 way too soon, I would give it two months to equalize.

    I have used T4, T3, NDT, and I have high SHBG, also. And so far I have not found an
    effective way to lower SHBG without killing TT.

    My favorite thyroid link.....tiredthyroid.com/rt3.html
    fsh 4.9 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL
    lh 5.3 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL

    Reduced T3 to 25mcg daily. Was @ 75mcg sustained-release for 2+ years and as high as 100mcg which sent me into hyperthyroid state. TSH pre-T3 monotherapy averaged 3.5. RT3 was elevated also. Now it's low as well as T4.

    My one doc never tested FT only TT. My guess is that I was also low and my SHBG in the higher range and now even higher due to T3 mega-saturation. My sense is that it will normalize, but that doesn't mean TRT is out of the question. Have you looked into TRT?

    Thanks for that link. That's a new one I haven't seen!

  10. T3 only killed my DHEAs and raised my cortisol to 120% of range(over entire day).
    Have you done 4x saliva cortisol testing???
    Why not try LOW dose Clomid? ORAL HCG?(yes, you mix real HCG and put it under your tongue)

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.TT View Post
    T3 only killed my DHEAs and raised my cortisol to 120% of range(over entire day).
    Have you done 4x saliva cortisol testing???
    Why not try LOW dose Clomid? ORAL HCG?(yes, you mix real HCG and put it under your tongue
    My saliva cortisol was normal if not low. DHEA-S was elevated from taking 50mg daily. Had to cut to 25mg EOD.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    My saliva cortisol was normal if not low. DHEA-S was elevated from taking 50mg daily. Had to cut to 25mg EOD.
    You are probably methylation issues which is not allowing you to resolve you fatty liver properly. The cause of the issue was identified. Now you just have to resolve it. Suggest get 23andme which will look for these hidden blockages with in the liver. I use the 23andme all the time in cases like this. Many of them have save issues of elevated SHBG, once you get pathways balanced out SHBG will go down as inflammation decreases. If a person is taking t-3 this can also cause elevated SHBG. (which is genetic issue) and can not do anything about. Why one needs to have all the information before any further steps can be done.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    You are probably methylation issues which is not allowing you to resolve you fatty liver properly. The cause of the issue was identified. Now you just have to resolve it. Suggest get 23andme which will look for these hidden blockages with in the liver. I use the 23andme all the time in cases like this. Many of them have save issues of elevated SHBG, once you get pathways balanced out SHBG will go down as inflammation decreases. If a person is taking t-3 this can also cause elevated SHBG. (which is genetic issue) and can not do anything about. Why one needs to have all the information before any further steps can be done.
    I definitely have methylation issues. I have the MTHFR genetic mutation and take support for it. I have done the 23andme. Great stuff. Didn't find the markers for liver blockage. Do you know which ones?

  14. Only MTHFR? What about CBS?(ammonia issues)

    Maybe not FATTY LIVER, but way over worked liver(toxic byproducts).

    Have you used /geneticgenie.org/?

  15. The only test I know that tests for CBS is Yasko. Do you know of others? I have no idea how I could be ingesting toxins. I eat organic and am careful about all the supps I use. Will look into that link.

  16. You feed your downloaded 23andME data into /geneticgenie.org/ and it searches for all the methylation SNPs.

    Well, atleast that is what I have read. My 23andME test data is not done yet, so I do not have first hand knowledge.
    I try not to post about things I have not done.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.TT View Post
    You feed your downloaded 23andME data into /geneticgenie.org/ and it searches for all the methylation SNPs.

    Well, atleast that is what I have read. My 23andME test data is not done yet, so I do not have first hand knowledge.
    I try not to post about things I have not done.
    Thanks.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    I do have NAFLD, dx'd 3 years ago. Never knew I had it. Am on VLC paleo now for a year + keto + IF. Lipids - elevated LDL-P, apo B, Lp(a), TC, TRIGs and HDL ok. VLC paleo can purge the liver of FFAs, especially with NAFLD. I consume <30g carbs daily and only eat a small handful of berries occasionally. T3 is now @ 25mcg, was @ as high as 100mcg which produced hyperthyroid symptoms and caused hypercoagulation resulting in 2 blood clots (not well-known, but shown in several thrombotic studies), so, I must not overdo T3. Was on sustained-release T3 for over 2 years which did little until I stared straight T3 and then added T4 which I had to stop after 2 mos. Am considering adding a small dose of natural dessicated thyroid. Am in the process of re-evaluating all labs since hemostasis caused from too much thyroid may have altered many of my lab values including CRP. I avoid all grains, soy, cow's milk products, alcohol, yeast. I take DGL & glutamine as a prophylaxis against LGS. BTW, my T4 level is almost non-existent although I don't know if this makes any difference.
    T4 is low because of the high t3 usage. 100 t3 is way high. 25 is much better. If you start tapering down on the t3, t4 will came back. Dont stop cold turkey with the t3 always taper down and allow time to adjust. Also look into the zone diet. It deals with foods that will lower inflamation in the body.

    It is not uncommon to have elevated LDL on paleo. If the LDL persisits even with taking T3, you need to cut back on the fat intake a little. It is possible as the body burns stored adipose fat, the addition of exhgenous fat might be too much for the amount of exercise you do a day.
    At this point since you have a fatty liver i'd say a lot of exercise and not a whole lot of food. I dont believe any detox for the liver works like milk thistle etc. I'd look into using vinegar or balsamic vinegar as it has some properties that may help you.
    Also, def check to see your insulin response to carbs. That would make a big difference in the body;s ability to burn fat for energy.
    What is your blood glucose fasted, and 3 hours afer a meal?

  19. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    T4 is low because of the high t3 usage. 100 t3 is way high. 25 is much better. If you start tapering down on the t3, t4 will came back. Dont stop cold turkey with the t3 always taper down and allow time to adjust. Also look into the zone diet. It deals with foods that will lower inflamation in the body.

    It is not uncommon to have elevated LDL on paleo. If the LDL persisits even with taking T3, you need to cut back on the fat intake a little. It is possible as the body burns stored adipose fat, the addition of exhgenous fat might be too much for the amount of exercise you do a day.
    At this point since you have a fatty liver i'd say a lot of exercise and not a whole lot of food. I dont believe any detox for the liver works like milk thistle etc. I'd look into using vinegar or balsamic vinegar as it has some properties that may help you.
    Also, def check to see your insulin response to carbs. That would make a big difference in the body;s ability to burn fat for energy.
    What is your blood glucose fasted, and 3 hours afer a meal?
    A1c is 5.3. FBG: 85-90. I use ACV daily to help bring down glucose/insulin. The only problem is that a keto diet is up to 75% fat. But I think you're right. Only problem is that protein has to be moderate and carbs <50g daily. Maybe cut fat to 60%?

  20. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    T4 is low because of the high t3 usage. 100 t3 is way high. 25 is much better. If you start tapering down on the t3, t4 will came back. Dont stop cold turkey with the t3 always taper down and allow time to adjust. Also look into the zone diet. It deals with foods that will lower inflamation in the body.

    It is not uncommon to have elevated LDL on paleo. If the LDL persisits even with taking T3, you need to cut back on the fat intake a little. It is possible as the body burns stored adipose fat, the addition of exhgenous fat might be too much for the amount of exercise you do a day.
    At this point since you have a fatty liver i'd say a lot of exercise and not a whole lot of food. I dont believe any detox for the liver works like milk thistle etc. I'd look into using vinegar or balsamic vinegar as it has some properties that may help you.
    Also, def check to see your insulin response to carbs. That would make a big difference in the body;s ability to burn fat for energy.
    What is your blood glucose fasted, and 3 hours afer a meal?
    The only problem with the Zone diet is that it advocates nearly 40% carbs and eliminates health SFAs from whole food sources like egg yolks.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    I definitely have methylation issues. I have the MTHFR genetic mutation and take support for it. I have done the 23andme. Great stuff. Didn't find the markers for liver blockage. Do you know which ones?
    I am part of the largest MTHFRsupport dot net and methylation support group in the world. I am one of the specialist in this field who is doing ongoing research in this field with special group of people Dr Ben lynch, Sterling Hill, Dr Rich, Yasko, Mullen. We are all working together to figure out the genetic codes for many health issues. Just in the past week there have been advances in research in to possible mechanism for leaky gut. This is what I do all day long is use genetic testing with MD, DO, and Shrinks in help them resolve complex cases. People have no understanding to what information is hidden in 23andme. There will be an application which will be launch from MTHFR support.net which has been endorsed by 23andme for breaking down the information. We are expected to get 2 million down loads with the next 1-2 years from people with 23andme. Unfortunately there are probably may
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  22. Matrix you're alive!


    Did you get my last emails?

  23. Quote Originally Posted by dpk20x View Post
    Matrix you're alive!


    Did you get my last emails?
    Yes am alive, covered in few hundred email, phone calls, consults with clients and Dr's, doing radio interviews..: )
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    A1c is 5.3. FBG: 85-90. I use ACV daily to help bring down glucose/insulin. The only problem is that a keto diet is up to 75% fat. But I think you're right. Only problem is that protein has to be moderate and carbs <50g daily. Maybe cut fat to 60%?
    A1c looks good and fasted glucose is great as well. And yes, on keto keep protein moderate because it can be converted to glucose if in unbalanced ratio between fat/carbs/protein. I would cut the fat as you mentioned, and reevalutate. It is also good to start a weight training program 3 days a week along with cardio if you not already doing it.
    As far as zone is concerned I mentioned it because of its inflamation focus and not regarding it's carb content. I should have been more specific. For example, the use of fats I do like their approach of not cooking with olive oil because it created inflamation and so forth. There is info there that can be pulled and used on the paleo diet in this sense.

    Just an FYI, sometimes some ppl have a bit a problem with less than 50g of carbs on a low carb diet. Their bodies just doesnt fuction properly. If the adjustment of the fat intake doesnt seem to work you may want to consider going up to 75 g of carbs a day. I personally do less then 50g a day of carbs but there are days when I go to 100 or 75 for few days then back it off and still loose weight. Just play around with it and find your spot.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    A1c looks good and fasted glucose is great as well. And yes, on keto keep protein moderate because it can be converted to glucose if in unbalanced ratio between fat/carbs/protein. I would cut the fat as you mentioned, and reevalutate. It is also good to start a weight training program 3 days a week along with cardio if you not already doing it.
    As far as zone is concerned I mentioned it because of its inflamation focus and not regarding it's carb content. I should have been more specific. For example, the use of fats I do like their approach of not cooking with olive oil because it created inflamation and so forth. There is info there that can be pulled and used on the paleo diet in this sense.

    Just an FYI, sometimes some ppl have a bit a problem with less than 50g of carbs on a low carb diet. Their bodies just doesnt fuction properly. If the adjustment of the fat intake doesnt seem to work you may want to consider going up to 75 g of carbs a day. I personally do less then 50g a day of carbs but there are days when I go to 100 or 75 for few days then back it off and still loose weight. Just play around with it and find your spot.
    >50g/day takes you out of keto. I dont notice I have a problem with VLC. Only thing is that I'm still not leaning out.
    I cannot figure out the latest weight gain. I have not consumed more calories daily and training and cardio is same. I wonder if it's because of dropping the t3 from 75mcg and my RMR has slowed from feedback shutdown or like a rebound effect. It's the only thing I've changed in the last few weeks. I have never been able to gain lean mass without adding fat, doesn't matter what age. Thing is - I feel better with less t3, but maybe I need to reevaluate and try some NDT. I really have to watch going too high on either t3 or t4 as either will cause palpitations and blood to clot up as it did twice in the last year (after ruling out all other causes).

    I still also think TRT and peptides will help me in my fitness goals that diet and training has failed to give me. HRT and reducing calories are only things I have not tried.

    A friend told me today I look bloated from weeks back. Pretty discouraging. Back to square one.

    I seriously need to recomp:
    Current Stats:
    Age: 53
    Ht: 5-7
    Wt: 178
    Fat-free mass: 133

    During mid last-year, I made some progress by dropping weight to 168 w/ 19% bf and now I went backwards again. 3 x 30 min cardio does nothing. Same with training 4x/week. I look like I don't even work out.

    Desired would be like this:
    Wt: 155
    Fat-free mass: 140

    For this point, I can start a clean bulk to 160-165, the cut again. Rinse, repeat.

    But it sucks taking this long and never getting anywhere after all the research and effort I've put into fat loss. How farther do I need to drop calories before I go into starvation mode, even slower metabolism & catabolism?

  26. ah, now I have a much better picture of what you did.
    First off, you are starting to cross over from HRT to bodybuilding. If you want to lean out like that and build up your physique I think bodybuilding is better suited. You dont have to go crazy but the approach need to be a bit different.
    Doing 75 T3 without anabolics most definitely burned muscle unfortunately. You also have a rebounding effect from that so my advice is to slowly cut back on the t3 all the way to nothing and stop it. Let the body bounce back.
    Procure some test and HGH if you want to get into it like that and do a cycle. Once on the cycle you can do;
    250mg of test per week
    .25 arimidex
    1IU GH daily (5on 2 off)
    25 T3 daily (optional) but recomnded with GH

    And yes, you may have to lower your food intake for a while till thyroid is bouncing back if you dont want to get too fat.

    With the diet already in check and cardio you should have some nice results.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    ah, now I have a much better picture of what you did.
    First off, you are starting to cross over from HRT to bodybuilding. If you want to lean out like that and build up your physique I think bodybuilding is better suited. You dont have to go crazy but the approach need to be a bit different.
    Doing 75 T3 without anabolics most definitely burned muscle unfortunately. You also have a rebounding effect from that so my advice is to slowly cut back on the t3 all the way to nothing and stop it. Let the body bounce back.
    Procure some test and HGH if you want to get into it like that and do a cycle. Once on the cycle you can do;
    250mg of test per week
    .25 arimidex
    1IU GH daily (5on 2 off)
    25 T3 daily (optional) but recomnded with GH

    And yes, you may have to lower your food intake for a while till thyroid is bouncing back if you dont want to get too fat.

    With the diet already in check and cardio you should have some nice results.
    Thanks for always responding, V. I really appreciate your insight. I can always use more no matter how much research I do.

    Well, actually, my only HRT was running T3 if you conisder that HRT. That's it. The goal was to optimize thyroid function and metabolism by clearing out excess rT3 and suppressing TSH - both accomplished finally after 2.5 years of taking sustained-release T3, and then straight T3 as of late. As far as BBing - I've been resistance training since the age of 24 when I was my leanest and lightest. Had pretty good definition and vascularity. But I never trained hard enough and had many stumbling blocks, problems with diet, food allergies, gut infections, etc. and then major business-related stress - all of which took me off course from really getting into training. Now that all that crap is behind me - with the exception of some manageable health issues - I am back full circle, picking BBing back up where I left off in my mid-20s - but now at 53.

    I have a buddy doing a GHRP-2/GHRP-6/Mod-GRF stack per my suggestion. He was previously running rHGH @ 2IUs and then stopped and started the peptide combo when I convinced him (and myself even though I'm not on anything as of yet) that it's much more effective and safe to use secretagogues that stimulate the pituitary to makes it's own GH in a pulsatile fashion as opposed to injecting frank rHGH daily (many may disagree and tell me to go with the real deal, but there are many sides with it). My buddy's baseline IGF-1 was sub 200. On rHGH it raised to mid 200s. On the peptide combo, it spiked to mid 400s! He's also running a test cyp/prop/phenylprop combo once every couple weeks (but his E2 is too high and his TT shot down from 1500 to 350! He is getting HPTA suppression, I'd say. Should be using some HCG or Clomid, shouldn't he? He's 9 years younger than me and his bf is 13%.

    Have you run any of the GHRPs and GHRHs and compared body comp with using rHGH? Some argue that peptides aren't as effective for older guys like me, but I think they're referring to sermorelin which is pretty much useless by itself since the GH spike last only seconds.

    In any case, yes, I was ALWAYS concerned over the catabolic effects of T3 and that you should never run it w/o AAS. But my "specialty" doc didn't say much to that, probably because he doesn't know this. My local HRT doc, however, loves test cyp, takes it himself (as well as HGH), and prescribes it with a small dose of deca (nandrolone). He has been suggesting it for a while and especially with my almost non-existent FT - as has every friend of mine.

    But again - looking at my normal TT and my pathetic FT levels (see my first post)- and taking into account the fact that there is no way in hell I can build the body I want no matter how hard I train and eat clean when the chemistry (FT) isn't available for adding lean mass and burning fat. You agree? Same goes for my IGF-1 which is around 200. Everything I've read says that TT levels needs to be at as close to 1000 and FT levels at the top of the range in order to add lean mass. My E2 is too low right now. That will change when I cycle up. I have some adex, but never had to use it.

    I never went full-bore on HRT (TRT and GHRT). I think I'm well past the point of needing to go for it. Heck, I'm 53, after all. Yes, my TT is not bad hovering between the mid 400s to 600s - but that means nothing if the FT is too low which it is. BUT - I've been reluctant to go on TRT because I'm paranoid I will permanently screw up something that needs no help: my libido and my sexual function. I think running HCG as Dr Crisler recommends would be the way to go to prevent testicular atrophy, hair loss, and long-term axis suppression. Also, exogenous T is know to suppress adrenal and thyroid function. Everybody jokes that I'm a professional procrastinator, but I just want to be very cautious because I've had a lot of health issues plague me over the years and I certainly don't need to do some irreparable harm to myself.

    What do you think?

  28. Honestly I think you should go the BBing approach and do a 10week cycle thus keeping yourself away from TRT but still riping the benefits of aas.
    There are some interesting thoughts you went through but the difference between your body making something and taking externally is like night and day. If you want higher IGF levels take IGF-LR2, if you want higher test levels take test. The problem with stimulating your own body to produce something in excess is that there are feedback mechanisms that will prevent that from happening on a large scale. For this reason I really was never interested in any other peptides than HGH and IGF. Those 2 I can say, especially HGH made the biggest difference in growth.
    The story with GH is that our bodies seem to always bounce back from using it much better than testosterone. Not sure really why but it does. Thyroid seem to do the same.
    The part that you really need to pay close attention is the fatty liver and your diet. Now, just because you can tolerate low carb doesnt mean you shouldnt eat some fruit, veggies and occasional starch once in a while. I think youhave 2 goals right now, immediate goal is to pay close attention to your diet and liver values and longer term to loose body fat and change body composition.
    You def doing the research which is a great start.
    I really dont see the need for you to mess with those peptides you have mentioned or HCG. Those peptides are for ppl who cant afford or cant get real growth hormone imho. No offense to anybody
    Im sure they swear it works and what not but Im one of those ppl who looks at measuring results and sticks with compounds which are able to deliver time and time again and it's easy to control and understand.
    Those peptides are hardly researched and can cause more harm than good.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Honestly I think you should go the BBing approach and do a 10week cycle thus keeping yourself away from TRT but still riping the benefits of aas.
    But TRT is an AAS and you suggested it as part of a cycle above. I'm confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    The problem with stimulating your own body to produce something in excess is that there are feedback mechanisms that will prevent that from happening on a large scale. For this reason I really was never interested in any other peptides than HGH and IGF. Those 2 I can say, especially HGH made the biggest difference in growth.
    But the mechanism of negative feedback is why the science behind peptide secretatogogues makes so much more sense and is safer than running rHGH.

  30. Testosterone therapy is keeping levels within normal ranges. In bodybuilding, doing a cycle one would go beyond the normal ranges in order to accelerate the progress. That's why a cycle is only 10 weeks long then you would let your body normalize.

    When you say safer, based on what science? You stimulating an organ to produce something so in the scheme of things you still disrupting the normal function of the respctive body part. Dont be fooled by the up talk of some of these compounds as being safer, they are not.
    For example HCG, ok it stimulates the testies to make more testosterone so on paper is an great thing but is it? No it's not.It is very disruptive.
    The thing is that once you get into using these compounds yourself things are not as they appear to be on paper.
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