Clomid restart before taking the HRT plunge

[sumradagnoth]

34, healthy & active, low bf% and diet is solid. Not overtraining, eating in moderate surplus on training days. No abnormal external stresses or toxin exposures, etc. No previous AAS usage at all. Recently had early morning bloods done and found:

LH 1.4 (1.7 - 8.6)
ESTRADIOL 15.1 (7.6 - 42.6)
DHEA-SULFATE 247.4 (160 - 449)
TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 262 (280 - 1100)
SEX HORMONE BIND GLOBULIN 25 (10 - 80)
TESTOSTERONE, FREE 7.34 (1.9 - 27)
TESTOSTERONE,BIOAVAILABLE 120.4 (110.0-575.0)
ALBUMIN,SERUM 5.0 (3.6-5.1)
IGF-1 142.3 (101 - 267)
CORTISOL 8.8

...so went to an HRT doc locally who is respected and follows Crissler protocols. Was about to take the TRT plunge under his recommendation when I got cold feet about the commitment.. im not that old and thought maybe something else could be done instead. Doc is now exploring the option of Clomid 25mg every 3rd day for awhile then redo bloods and go from there. He isnt overly confident in this working, but from what ive read, since LH and Test are low, theres some hopes of having a natural restart of some sort.

Has anyone had luck with this protocol? Can someone confirm or provide alternative dosing? How long should the Clomid be run before tapering off to see if test level holds?

Totally nervous here because Ive read some folks doing well on 12.5 EOD... so not sure I trust the dosing Ive been given.

[CopyCat]

You may find these helpful, or interesting at the least...

http://www.advancedmusclesciencelab....ternative.html

Clomid restart before taking the HRT plunge

[sumradagnoth]

yes i did see this previously, thanks... no info on dosing though. and >6 months seems pretty long term though... isnt the point of a restart to be able to come off and "coast" with healthier levels?

[The Matrix]

34, healthy & active, low bf% and diet is solid. Not overtraining, eating in moderate surplus on training days. No abnormal external stresses or toxin exposures, etc. No previous AAS usage at all. Recently had early morning bloods done and found:

LH 1.4 (1.7 - 8.6)
ESTRADIOL 15.1 (7.6 - 42.6)
DHEA-SULFATE 247.4 (160 - 449)
TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 262 (280 - 1100)
SEX HORMONE BIND GLOBULIN 25 (10 - 80)
TESTOSTERONE, FREE 7.34 (1.9 - 27)
TESTOSTERONE,BIOAVAILABLE 120.4 (110.0-575.0)
ALBUMIN,SERUM 5.0 (3.6-5.1)
IGF-1 142.3 (101 - 267)
CORTISOL 8.8

...so went to an HRT doc locally who is respected and follows Crissler protocols. Was about to take the TRT plunge under his recommendation when I got cold feet about the commitment.. im not that old and thought maybe something else could be done instead. Doc is now exploring the option of Clomid 25mg every 3rd day for awhile then redo bloods and go from there. He isnt overly confident in this working, but from what ive read, since LH and Test are low, theres some hopes of having a natural restart of some sort.

Has anyone had luck with this protocol? Can someone confirm or provide alternative dosing? How long should the Clomid be run before tapering off to see if test level holds?

Totally nervous here because Ive read some folks doing well on 12.5 EOD... so not sure I trust the dosing Ive been given.

With Doctors I work with, I recommend the clomid challenge. If they get good results then I suggest 12.5 mgs EOD or even m,w,f seems to work the best. Before starting clomid, there is a serious of evaluations done on their patient to make sure the environment is optimal for a positive response. Some times guys on HRT may take 4 months to prep them to come off on to clomid. Reason why people crash on clomid is they do not have a strong foundations of raw material in the proper balance or other issues are blocking the response of clomid from doing its job. Remember long and steady road is the best approach..

[sumradagnoth]

Reason why people crash on clomid is they do not have a strong foundations of raw material in the proper balance or other issues are blocking the response of clomid from doing its job.

can you elaborate on what you are considering to be a "strong foundation"?

[acidvoodoo]

this is something i'm considering myself, though it seems the clomid challenge/stimulation part has different dosages and timings before first blood work.

I was thinking of running 25mg every day for 7-10 days as this seems to be what shippen reccomends, then bumping down to 12.5 every m,w,f or even just s,thurs.

I really want to avoid any estrogenic sides. I'm also trying to figure out if theres any other supplements that can help clomid work most optimally.

[sumradagnoth]

do you actually have to start with a challenge? why not just start at the low infrequent dose and see what happens? my doc didnt even mention a high dose/frequency challenge...

[The Matrix]

If a person has estrogen issues I.suggest to.Dr adding in a little.aromasin should help.keep.this in check. In the past many Dr patients failed.clomid challenge. After evaluating them.further.there were several.factors.which was preventing them.from.getting a good response. Majority of them had malabsorption issues lack.of bile or nutritional.deficiency or bad bugs as well as adrenal issues.or.neurotransmitter. Wfile.under Dr supervision and monitoring Ohiostate was able transition from.several.months.to.clomid smoothly. It took.a few.months working with his Dr to accomplish this successful transition. If the other issues where.not.addressed he.probably would have been stuck.on trt for.life.

[Spyplane]

I was going to make a new thread, but this topic if fairly similar to mine, but please tell me if I should just start a new thread.

So I had bloodwork done and just got a Rx for clomid. Here's my numbers:

Protein, Total, Serum. 6.6 (6-8.5) * he said this was low and doesn't know why yet
Albumin, Serum.........4.9 (3.5-5.5)
A/G Ratio..................2.9 (1.1-2.5) * clearly high

Immunoglubulin G.......587 (700-1600)
Immunoglobulin M.......7 (40-230) * yep, 7

Test, Serum...................387 (348-1197)
Test, Free......................10.7 (8.7-25.1)
Estradiol, Sensitive..........13 (3-70)

Triiodothyronine, Free......3.0 (2.0-4.4)
T4, Free.........................1 .37 (0.82-1.77)
Dihydrotestosterone.........17
LH............................ .....2.9 (1.7-8.6) * he was concerned about this

FSH........................... ....3.0 (1.5-12.4)
Reverse T3......................19.7 (9.2-24.1)
Vitamin D........................31.4 (30-100)

My Rx was for Clomiphene (clomid) 50mg x 2 a day for 7 days
Blood test on 8th day and then 25mg each day for 4 weeks

Is this a typical Rx for trying to get the body to produce T before trying full TRT?

[The Matrix]

I was going to make a new thread, but this topic if fairly similar to mine, but please tell me if I should just start a new thread.

So I had bloodwork done and just got a Rx for clomid. Here's my numbers:

Protein, Total, Serum. 6.6 (6-8.5) * he said this was low and doesn't know why yet
Albumin, Serum.........4.9 (3.5-5.5)
A/G Ratio..................2.9 (1.1-2.5) * clearly high

Immunoglubulin G.......587 (700-1600)
Immunoglobulin M.......7 (40-230) * yep, 7

Test, Serum...................387 (348-1197)
Test, Free......................10.7 (8.7-25.1)
Estradiol, Sensitive..........13 (3-70)

Triiodothyronine, Free......3.0 (2.0-4.4)
T4, Free.........................1 .37 (0.82-1.77)
Dihydrotestosterone.........17
LH............................ .....2.9 (1.7-8.6) * he was concerned about this

FSH........................... ....3.0 (1.5-12.4)
Reverse T3......................19.7 (9.2-24.1)
Vitamin D........................31.4 (30-100)

My Rx was for Clomiphene (clomid) 50mg x 2 a day for 7 days
Blood test on 8th day and then 25mg each day for 4 weeks

Is this a typical Rx for trying to get the body to produce T before trying full TRT?

Your GI tract is majorily compromised. I would not even focus on TRT till you get that straight.
You are most likely very toxic.
Dosage is why to high. I was on this amount wanted to commit suicide !!
There is no history which is crucial to dealing with these cases. New thread would be suggested.

[acidvoodoo]

Yes as matrix says, that is a mega dose, from all threads i've seen the doses like that may get you high TT, LH, FSH numbers but the side effects will cancel out all benefit. Here is a post from Dr John Crisler, one of the leading TRT specialists, he posted this yestrday on this forum as his approach to clomid dosing. Less really is more when it comes to clomid.


Here's how you do it:

Start at 12.5mgs Clomid per day. After 3 weeks, run these labs (which you ran before you started, BTW):

TT
LH
FSH
SHBG
E2 (sensitive only)

If you feel much better--the goal of therapy--you are all set. Even if your T levels don't look great; that would mean you happened to catch your new production level at a trough.

If you don't feel much better, have your LH and FSH levels risen substantially? If not, increase the dose to 25mgs. A couple weeks later, the same labs again. You can go to 37.5mgs, then 50mg per day if necessary. Notice we are employing 1/4 tab increases, for convenience.

If LH/FSH rose substantially, and T did not, and you still don't feel well, look to testicular failure as your issue.

Of note, some have gotten great results on only 12.5mgs every other day.

If your T rose nicely, but SHBG also shot up, this counteracts the benefit. The estrogen half of the SERM-class drug did that. Try some Danazol, 50mg per day, oral, to try to lower SHBG.

If E shot up, add anastrazole, starting at 0.25mg every other day, and increase as necessary. Remember, it takes several weeks for E and SHBG to restabilize (SHBG may lower with the E).

Using this protocol can help you avoid going on frank TRT. That would be a good thing.

[Mr.TT]

This is not a major issue, but, your Vitamin D is way too low.
Take 1000 IUs per 35lbs of body weight, per day, just to maintain proper levels.
To get your D up to 80ish range, take 2000 IUs per 35lbs, for two months, then cut back to the 1000IU / 35lbs rate for a month
AND BLOOD TEST YOUR D again.

[sumradagnoth]

Yes as matrix says, that is a mega dose, from all threads i've seen the doses like that may get you high TT, LH, FSH numbers but the side effects will cancel out all benefit. Here is a post from Dr John Crisler, one of the leading TRT specialists, he posted this yestrday on this forum as his approach to clomid dosing. Less really is more when it comes to clomid.


Here's how you do it:

Start at 12.5mgs Clomid per day. After 3 weeks, run these labs (which you ran before you started, BTW):

TT
LH
FSH
SHBG
E2 (sensitive only)

If you feel much better--the goal of therapy--you are all set. Even if your T levels don't look great; that would mean you happened to catch your new production level at a trough.

If you don't feel much better, have your LH and FSH levels risen substantially? If not, increase the dose to 25mgs. A couple weeks later, the same labs again. You can go to 37.5mgs, then 50mg per day if necessary. Notice we are employing 1/4 tab increases, for convenience.

If LH/FSH rose substantially, and T did not, and you still don't feel well, look to testicular failure as your issue.

Of note, some have gotten great results on only 12.5mgs every other day.

If your T rose nicely, but SHBG also shot up, this counteracts the benefit. The estrogen half of the SERM-class drug did that. Try some Danazol, 50mg per day, oral, to try to lower SHBG.

If E shot up, add anastrazole, starting at 0.25mg every other day, and increase as necessary. Remember, it takes several weeks for E and SHBG to restabilize (SHBG may lower with the E).

Using this protocol can help you avoid going on frank TRT. That would be a good thing.

doing exactly this...

[sumradagnoth]

Yes as matrix says, that is a mega dose, from all threads i've seen the doses like that may get you high TT, LH, FSH numbers but the side effects will cancel out all benefit. Here is a post from Dr John Crisler, one of the leading TRT specialists, he posted this yestrday on this forum as his approach to clomid dosing. Less really is more when it comes to clomid.
.

Acidvoodo - do you have a link to this original post by chance?

[The Matrix]

Yes as matrix says, that is a mega dose, from all threads i've seen the doses like that may get you high TT, LH, FSH numbers but the side effects will cancel out all benefit. Here is a post from Dr John Crisler, one of the leading TRT specialists, he posted this yestrday on this forum as his approach to clomid dosing. Less really is more when it comes to clomid.


Here's how you do it:

Start at 12.5mgs Clomid per day. After 3 weeks, run these labs (which you ran before you started, BTW):

TT
LH
FSH
SHBG
E2 (sensitive only)

If you feel much better--the goal of therapy--you are all set. Even if your T levels don't look great; that would mean you happened to catch your new production level at a trough.

If you don't feel much better, have your LH and FSH levels risen substantially? If not, increase the dose to 25mgs. A couple weeks later, the same labs again. You can go to 37.5mgs, then 50mg per day if necessary. Notice we are employing 1/4 tab increases, for convenience.

If LH/FSH rose substantially, and T did not, and you still don't feel well, look to testicular failure as your issue.

Of note, some have gotten great results on only 12.5mgs every other day.

If your T rose nicely, but SHBG also shot up, this counteracts the benefit. The estrogen half of the SERM-class drug did that. Try some Danazol, 50mg per day, oral, to try to lower SHBG.

If E shot up, add anastrazole, starting at 0.25mg every other day, and increase as necessary. Remember, it takes several weeks for E and SHBG to restabilize (SHBG may lower with the E).

Using this protocol can help you avoid going on frank TRT. That would be a good thing.

This is all great information. You need to address the reason why you are having the issue in the first place. If you abuse steroids in the past great no brainer, but if like many cases I have dealt with having alter genetic pathways, GI and liver imbalances, heavy metals, adrenal, thyroid, nutritional deficiency, poor lifestyles, list goes on and on. You may feel good short term, but what are the long term damage of these other issue which not have been addressed? This is my biggest concern I have in mind when along with Dr's. I am seeing more and more of it people put on TRT feel great for years then all of sudden fall apart despite optimal hormone readings leaving Dr's scratching their heads. Why because the underlying issue was never addressed.. I think TRT and clomid have there place do not get me wrong. When other issues are addressed the person not only gets better but truly gets well. This is the mentality of the Dr's I have surrounded my self with by truly using an integrated medical approach incorporating the contributions of excellent information above. People are looking at just one piece of the puzzle, need to take a step back and look at the entire picture to truly grasp the concept of being well then being better.

[Spyplane]

**EDIT**
Started my own thread: I can't link to it b/c my post count isn't high enough (weird it doesn't accept Anabolic Minds url's?)

Sorry for the threadjacking

[Thjuice]

Matrix, can you recommend a doctor in SoCal for me? You can PM if you want. Thanks

[The Matrix]

Matrix, can you recommend a doctor in SoCal for me? You can PM if you want. Thanks

What are your current issues ?

[Thjuice]

What are your current issues ?

Have some issues with ED and also looking to put on lean muscle. I am 36 and starting to feel like I'm slowing down.

[acidvoodoo]

What are your current issues ?

matrix whats your opinion on organic acids testing from geneva or metametrix organix, for finding underlying issues? or is it better holding out and paying for more the stool test