Clomid restart before taking the HRT plunge

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    Clomid restart before taking the HRT plunge


    34, healthy & active, low bf% and diet is solid. Not overtraining, eating in moderate surplus on training days. No abnormal external stresses or toxin exposures, etc. No previous AAS usage at all. Recently had early morning bloods done and found:

    LH 1.4 (1.7 - 8.6)
    ESTRADIOL 15.1 (7.6 - 42.6)
    DHEA-SULFATE 247.4 (160 - 449)
    TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 262 (280 - 1100)
    SEX HORMONE BIND GLOBULIN 25 (10 - 80)
    TESTOSTERONE, FREE 7.34 (1.9 - 27)
    TESTOSTERONE,BIOAVAILABLE 120.4 (110.0-575.0)
    ALBUMIN,SERUM 5.0 (3.6-5.1)
    IGF-1 142.3 (101 - 267)
    CORTISOL 8.8

    ...so went to an HRT doc locally who is respected and follows Crissler protocols. Was about to take the TRT plunge under his recommendation when I got cold feet about the commitment.. im not that old and thought maybe something else could be done instead. Doc is now exploring the option of Clomid 25mg every 3rd day for awhile then redo bloods and go from there. He isnt overly confident in this working, but from what ive read, since LH and Test are low, theres some hopes of having a natural restart of some sort.

    Has anyone had luck with this protocol? Can someone confirm or provide alternative dosing? How long should the Clomid be run before tapering off to see if test level holds?

    Totally nervous here because Ive read some folks doing well on 12.5 EOD... so not sure I trust the dosing Ive been given.


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    yes i did see this previously, thanks... no info on dosing though. and >6 months seems pretty long term though... isnt the point of a restart to be able to come off and "coast" with healthier levels?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sumradagnoth View Post
    34, healthy & active, low bf% and diet is solid. Not overtraining, eating in moderate surplus on training days. No abnormal external stresses or toxin exposures, etc. No previous AAS usage at all. Recently had early morning bloods done and found:

    LH 1.4 (1.7 - 8.6)
    ESTRADIOL 15.1 (7.6 - 42.6)
    DHEA-SULFATE 247.4 (160 - 449)
    TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 262 (280 - 1100)
    SEX HORMONE BIND GLOBULIN 25 (10 - 80)
    TESTOSTERONE, FREE 7.34 (1.9 - 27)
    TESTOSTERONE,BIOAVAILABLE 120.4 (110.0-575.0)
    ALBUMIN,SERUM 5.0 (3.6-5.1)
    IGF-1 142.3 (101 - 267)
    CORTISOL 8.8

    ...so went to an HRT doc locally who is respected and follows Crissler protocols. Was about to take the TRT plunge under his recommendation when I got cold feet about the commitment.. im not that old and thought maybe something else could be done instead. Doc is now exploring the option of Clomid 25mg every 3rd day for awhile then redo bloods and go from there. He isnt overly confident in this working, but from what ive read, since LH and Test are low, theres some hopes of having a natural restart of some sort.

    Has anyone had luck with this protocol? Can someone confirm or provide alternative dosing? How long should the Clomid be run before tapering off to see if test level holds?

    Totally nervous here because Ive read some folks doing well on 12.5 EOD... so not sure I trust the dosing Ive been given.
    With Doctors I work with, I recommend the clomid challenge. If they get good results then I suggest 12.5 mgs EOD or even m,w,f seems to work the best. Before starting clomid, there is a serious of evaluations done on their patient to make sure the environment is optimal for a positive response. Some times guys on HRT may take 4 months to prep them to come off on to clomid. Reason why people crash on clomid is they do not have a strong foundations of raw material in the proper balance or other issues are blocking the response of clomid from doing its job. Remember long and steady road is the best approach..
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Reason why people crash on clomid is they do not have a strong foundations of raw material in the proper balance or other issues are blocking the response of clomid from doing its job.
    can you elaborate on what you are considering to be a "strong foundation"?

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    this is something i'm considering myself, though it seems the clomid challenge/stimulation part has different dosages and timings before first blood work.

    I was thinking of running 25mg every day for 7-10 days as this seems to be what shippen reccomends, then bumping down to 12.5 every m,w,f or even just s,thurs.

    I really want to avoid any estrogenic sides. I'm also trying to figure out if theres any other supplements that can help clomid work most optimally.

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    do you actually have to start with a challenge? why not just start at the low infrequent dose and see what happens? my doc didnt even mention a high dose/frequency challenge...

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    If a person has estrogen issues I.suggest to.Dr adding in a little.aromasin should help.keep.this in check. In the past many Dr patients failed.clomid challenge. After evaluating them.further.there were several.factors.which was preventing them.from.getting a good response. Majority of them had malabsorption issues lack.of bile or nutritional.deficiency or bad bugs as well as adrenal issues.or.neurotransmitter. Wfile.under Dr supervision and monitoring Ohiostate was able transition from.several.months.to.clomid smoothly. It took.a few.months working with his Dr to accomplish this successful transition. If the other issues where.not.addressed he.probably would have been stuck.on trt for.life.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

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    I was going to make a new thread, but this topic if fairly similar to mine, but please tell me if I should just start a new thread.

    So I had bloodwork done and just got a Rx for clomid. Here's my numbers:

    Protein, Total, Serum. 6.6 (6-8.5) * he said this was low and doesn't know why yet
    Albumin, Serum.........4.9 (3.5-5.5)
    A/G Ratio..................2.9 (1.1-2.5) * clearly high

    Immunoglubulin G.......587 (700-1600)
    Immunoglobulin M.......7 (40-230) * yep, 7

    Test, Serum...................387 (348-1197)
    Test, Free......................10.7 (8.7-25.1)
    Estradiol, Sensitive..........13 (3-70)

    Triiodothyronine, Free......3.0 (2.0-4.4)
    T4, Free.........................1 .37 (0.82-1.77)
    Dihydrotestosterone.........17
    LH............................ .....2.9 (1.7-8.6) * he was concerned about this

    FSH........................... ....3.0 (1.5-12.4)
    Reverse T3......................19.7 (9.2-24.1)
    Vitamin D........................31.4 (30-100)

    My Rx was for Clomiphene (clomid) 50mg x 2 a day for 7 days
    Blood test on 8th day and then 25mg each day for 4 weeks

    Is this a typical Rx for trying to get the body to produce T before trying full TRT?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spyplane View Post
    I was going to make a new thread, but this topic if fairly similar to mine, but please tell me if I should just start a new thread.

    So I had bloodwork done and just got a Rx for clomid. Here's my numbers:

    Protein, Total, Serum. 6.6 (6-8.5) * he said this was low and doesn't know why yet
    Albumin, Serum.........4.9 (3.5-5.5)
    A/G Ratio..................2.9 (1.1-2.5) * clearly high

    Immunoglubulin G.......587 (700-1600)
    Immunoglobulin M.......7 (40-230) * yep, 7

    Test, Serum...................387 (348-1197)
    Test, Free......................10.7 (8.7-25.1)
    Estradiol, Sensitive..........13 (3-70)

    Triiodothyronine, Free......3.0 (2.0-4.4)
    T4, Free.........................1 .37 (0.82-1.77)
    Dihydrotestosterone.........17
    LH............................ .....2.9 (1.7-8.6) * he was concerned about this

    FSH........................... ....3.0 (1.5-12.4)
    Reverse T3......................19.7 (9.2-24.1)
    Vitamin D........................31.4 (30-100)

    My Rx was for Clomiphene (clomid) 50mg x 2 a day for 7 days
    Blood test on 8th day and then 25mg each day for 4 weeks

    Is this a typical Rx for trying to get the body to produce T before trying full TRT?
    Your GI tract is majorily compromised. I would not even focus on TRT till you get that straight.
    You are most likely very toxic.
    Dosage is why to high. I was on this amount wanted to commit suicide !!
    There is no history which is crucial to dealing with these cases. New thread would be suggested.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

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    Yes as matrix says, that is a mega dose, from all threads i've seen the doses like that may get you high TT, LH, FSH numbers but the side effects will cancel out all benefit. Here is a post from Dr John Crisler, one of the leading TRT specialists, he posted this yestrday on this forum as his approach to clomid dosing. Less really is more when it comes to clomid.


    Here's how you do it:

    Start at 12.5mgs Clomid per day. After 3 weeks, run these labs (which you ran before you started, BTW):

    TT
    LH
    FSH
    SHBG
    E2 (sensitive only)

    If you feel much better--the goal of therapy--you are all set. Even if your T levels don't look great; that would mean you happened to catch your new production level at a trough.

    If you don't feel much better, have your LH and FSH levels risen substantially? If not, increase the dose to 25mgs. A couple weeks later, the same labs again. You can go to 37.5mgs, then 50mg per day if necessary. Notice we are employing 1/4 tab increases, for convenience.

    If LH/FSH rose substantially, and T did not, and you still don't feel well, look to testicular failure as your issue.

    Of note, some have gotten great results on only 12.5mgs every other day.

    If your T rose nicely, but SHBG also shot up, this counteracts the benefit. The estrogen half of the SERM-class drug did that. Try some Danazol, 50mg per day, oral, to try to lower SHBG.

    If E shot up, add anastrazole, starting at 0.25mg every other day, and increase as necessary. Remember, it takes several weeks for E and SHBG to restabilize (SHBG may lower with the E).

    Using this protocol can help you avoid going on frank TRT. That would be a good thing.

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    This is not a major issue, but, your Vitamin D is way too low.
    Take 1000 IUs per 35lbs of body weight, per day, just to maintain proper levels.
    To get your D up to 80ish range, take 2000 IUs per 35lbs, for two months, then cut back to the 1000IU / 35lbs rate for a month
    AND BLOOD TEST YOUR D again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by acidvoodoo View Post
    Yes as matrix says, that is a mega dose, from all threads i've seen the doses like that may get you high TT, LH, FSH numbers but the side effects will cancel out all benefit. Here is a post from Dr John Crisler, one of the leading TRT specialists, he posted this yestrday on this forum as his approach to clomid dosing. Less really is more when it comes to clomid.


    Here's how you do it:

    Start at 12.5mgs Clomid per day. After 3 weeks, run these labs (which you ran before you started, BTW):

    TT
    LH
    FSH
    SHBG
    E2 (sensitive only)

    If you feel much better--the goal of therapy--you are all set. Even if your T levels don't look great; that would mean you happened to catch your new production level at a trough.

    If you don't feel much better, have your LH and FSH levels risen substantially? If not, increase the dose to 25mgs. A couple weeks later, the same labs again. You can go to 37.5mgs, then 50mg per day if necessary. Notice we are employing 1/4 tab increases, for convenience.

    If LH/FSH rose substantially, and T did not, and you still don't feel well, look to testicular failure as your issue.

    Of note, some have gotten great results on only 12.5mgs every other day.

    If your T rose nicely, but SHBG also shot up, this counteracts the benefit. The estrogen half of the SERM-class drug did that. Try some Danazol, 50mg per day, oral, to try to lower SHBG.

    If E shot up, add anastrazole, starting at 0.25mg every other day, and increase as necessary. Remember, it takes several weeks for E and SHBG to restabilize (SHBG may lower with the E).

    Using this protocol can help you avoid going on frank TRT. That would be a good thing.
    doing exactly this...

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    Quote Originally Posted by acidvoodoo View Post
    Yes as matrix says, that is a mega dose, from all threads i've seen the doses like that may get you high TT, LH, FSH numbers but the side effects will cancel out all benefit. Here is a post from Dr John Crisler, one of the leading TRT specialists, he posted this yestrday on this forum as his approach to clomid dosing. Less really is more when it comes to clomid.
    .
    Acidvoodo - do you have a link to this original post by chance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by acidvoodoo View Post
    Yes as matrix says, that is a mega dose, from all threads i've seen the doses like that may get you high TT, LH, FSH numbers but the side effects will cancel out all benefit. Here is a post from Dr John Crisler, one of the leading TRT specialists, he posted this yestrday on this forum as his approach to clomid dosing. Less really is more when it comes to clomid.


    Here's how you do it:

    Start at 12.5mgs Clomid per day. After 3 weeks, run these labs (which you ran before you started, BTW):

    TT
    LH
    FSH
    SHBG
    E2 (sensitive only)

    If you feel much better--the goal of therapy--you are all set. Even if your T levels don't look great; that would mean you happened to catch your new production level at a trough.

    If you don't feel much better, have your LH and FSH levels risen substantially? If not, increase the dose to 25mgs. A couple weeks later, the same labs again. You can go to 37.5mgs, then 50mg per day if necessary. Notice we are employing 1/4 tab increases, for convenience.

    If LH/FSH rose substantially, and T did not, and you still don't feel well, look to testicular failure as your issue.

    Of note, some have gotten great results on only 12.5mgs every other day.

    If your T rose nicely, but SHBG also shot up, this counteracts the benefit. The estrogen half of the SERM-class drug did that. Try some Danazol, 50mg per day, oral, to try to lower SHBG.

    If E shot up, add anastrazole, starting at 0.25mg every other day, and increase as necessary. Remember, it takes several weeks for E and SHBG to restabilize (SHBG may lower with the E).

    Using this protocol can help you avoid going on frank TRT. That would be a good thing.
    This is all great information. You need to address the reason why you are having the issue in the first place. If you abuse steroids in the past great no brainer, but if like many cases I have dealt with having alter genetic pathways, GI and liver imbalances, heavy metals, adrenal, thyroid, nutritional deficiency, poor lifestyles, list goes on and on. You may feel good short term, but what are the long term damage of these other issue which not have been addressed? This is my biggest concern I have in mind when along with Dr's. I am seeing more and more of it people put on TRT feel great for years then all of sudden fall apart despite optimal hormone readings leaving Dr's scratching their heads. Why because the underlying issue was never addressed.. I think TRT and clomid have there place do not get me wrong. When other issues are addressed the person not only gets better but truly gets well. This is the mentality of the Dr's I have surrounded my self with by truly using an integrated medical approach incorporating the contributions of excellent information above. People are looking at just one piece of the puzzle, need to take a step back and look at the entire picture to truly grasp the concept of being well then being better.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

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    **EDIT**
    Started my own thread: I can't link to it b/c my post count isn't high enough (weird it doesn't accept Anabolic Minds url's?)

    Sorry for the threadjacking
    Last edited by Spyplane; 01-21-2013 at 03:03 PM. Reason: Opened new thread

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    Matrix, can you recommend a doctor in SoCal for me? You can PM if you want. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thjuice View Post
    Matrix, can you recommend a doctor in SoCal for me? You can PM if you want. Thanks
    What are your current issues ?
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    What are your current issues ?
    Have some issues with ED and also looking to put on lean muscle. I am 36 and starting to feel like I'm slowing down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    What are your current issues ?
    matrix whats your opinion on organic acids testing from geneva or metametrix organix, for finding underlying issues? or is it better holding out and paying for more the stool test

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    Quote Originally Posted by acidvoodoo View Post
    matrix whats your opinion on organic acids testing from geneva or metametrix organix, for finding underlying issues? or is it better holding out and paying for more the stool test
    I use them all the time the nutreval has been a great tool as well as ION panel from metametrix. I have a lot of high end clients so money is not an issue for them. I know money is an issue with a lot of people so you need to use what you have avaialble. To be honest by time people getting in contact with me they are already broke from dealing with their current health issues. Organic acid is fine as long as it has the intestinal and amino acid markers on it. You need those to combined in order to get the total picture. If the symptoms are heavily GI related then you are better off going to the stool test. If not then better going off with organic acid test/ amino acid profile. It is really case dependent and if money is an issue. Usuaully up front with out insurance your looking about $2000 for testing. With in this testing I can pretty much know what is going on and then work with their open minded Dr to make recommendations. Cases I handle are medically referred, or a person has a medical professional supervising.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

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