Questions about Testosterone levels - AnabolicMinds.com

Questions about Testosterone levels

Page 1 of 2 12 Last
  1. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    Question Questions about Testosterone levels


    Hello all,

    I just had some bloodwork drawn, and my test levels are out of whack. I'm really not sure what is going on that could be causing this, as I've yet to get a full hormonal blood work up (hopefully Mon when I go see my doc), but it's really bothering me and I was hoping someone could shed some light on possible causes in the mean time.

    Here's a quick rundown of a background that may be pertinent. I'm 28 years old. 255lbs. The previous five years I was in very bad shape physically, and mentally. I was 350lb, smoked, binge drank, was on prescription narcotics for a back injury, and on depression and anxiety medications. Last Dec. I finally decided I needed to make changes in my life and did so. I lost 95lb, quit smoking, quit drinking, was able to get off all my medications, and starting lifting weights and working out again, which is what led me to this forum. I feel like a new man, except that I've been having some symptoms of low T for years now. I was told my psychiatrist had done tests on my T levels, as I had brought up low T as a possible cause of my depression, but they told me my T levels were normal...

    When I decided to get healthy and started losing weight, I tried to detox my body naturally, and only put things that are natural into it. I feel like I had great success with it. I had more energy, my libido went up (slightly), and I just felt healthy. The dietary changes and renewed energy encouraged me to start exercising, and doing research on how to properly eat and train. It also helped me to understand that muscle growth, and fat reduction is enhanced by testosterone. Since I learned that I have been trying different ways to boost my testosterone levels naturally, eg. zinc, boron, healthy fats, tribulus, DAA. I also came across some information on dhea, and it sounded like it could be beneficial, so I bought a bottle and took it for two months. 50mg, once daily. I was aware that it may have negative, or no effect on a younger man, but to my amazement when I took it I felt like superman. My energy went through the roof, my concentration was great, my libido was out of control, and I just felt great all around. Then towards the end of the two months, I just started to feel like complete crap. I had no energy, was rundown and tired all the time, and had no libido. I'm not sure what caused all of that, but I'm guessing possibly conversion into estrogen for my body to try and balance itself out. All the symptoms subsided within a week of stopping it, and I pretty much felt like myself again, but with noticeably lower libido than I have ever had.

    After about a month of just taking a multi, zinc, and boron supplement, I bought some tribulus (supposedly compounded with crysin), and noticed a slight increase in my libido while taking it. After taking it for about two weeks I bought some bulk DAA powder to stack it with, and it seemed like my test levels went up semi-noticeably. I noticed increased aggression, and a couple pimples on my shoulders. After taking the DAA for about two weeks however, I started feeling like I was retaining water, and losing muscle, and felt like my body might have been converting alot of test to estrogen. I stopped taking the daa after the two week mark, and the labs I had done were on the last day that I was taking the daa. Since I've been off it for about a week I don't really feel like I'm retaining as much water, but I still feel, weak, moody, and rundown. My strength has also taking a noticeable decrease on my lifts.

    My test levels were:
    Total: 242ng/dl
    Free: 39.2pg/ml

    Also, it might be worth noting that my liver enzymes came back elevated. I do take a cheap bulk creatine powder, and have heard that can cause elevated liver functions, but I can't be sure that is what caused them.

    ALT: 171
    AST: 58

    So my question is, can anyone shed some possible scenarios on why my test levels are that of a 90 yr old? I've been doing alot of research, and some possibilities I've come up with are that; 1.) Taking dhea either shutdown my normal test production, or caused adreanal fatigue? 2.)Since my bf was/is so high, that I'm converting most test to estro, lowering test levels?

    I'm not really sure what to think, I tried to call and get my medical records of the past blood tests testosterone levels that my psych said they checked, but the clerk said that they had no records of bloods with test levels, so I don't know if they actually checked them as I never asked to see the results for myself... I may have had low test levels for years now, and never known about it until now. As I said, I plan on telling my dr. monday that I want a full hormone panel drawn, and will go from there, but an insight would be appreciated. I also had a vasectomy this spring, which could be a possible cause, so I thought I'd throw that in as well. Thanks in advance for any input.

  2. New Member
    Mr.TT's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  175 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    187
    Rep Power
    306

    Reputation

    I would be very specific, with your Dr,. and list all the tests that you want.
    E2, TT, FT, DHT, SHBG, LH, FSH, DHEAs, PROGESTERONE, PROLACTIN, TSH, FT3, FT4 to start with.

    Yes, vasectomys can cause TT problems, as can opiates, but, lets see the labs first.

    Congratulations on turning your life around, now getting a higher testosterone level should be the easy part.
  3. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.TT View Post

    Congratulations on turning your life around, now getting a higher testosterone level should the easy part.
    Thank you, and I hope so! It seems like I've been having some hormone issues on and off for a few years now. I've had some thyroid functions tests come back suggesting hypo in the past, then further tests showed as normal. I've been under alot of stress the past few years, and I'm thinking it may have exhausted my adrenals. It's def possible, but I can't be sure until I get further testing. I just hope I can get my Doc on board with further testing and taking finding what is causing the low readings and treating them seriously.
    •   
       

  4. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    I was able to have some more detailed bloodwork done, although my doctor wouldn't order most of other tests I requested. Everything looks to be in normal ranges, except my total test, which is still way low for a guy my age, so I'm confused. I go to see an endo this coming week, but If anyone has any insight they could offer in the meantime I'd be very appreciative. My levels were as follows. Quick note, I had them tested in the afternoon because I couldn't get the lab work done in the morning. Around 3pm. The last test levels in the previous post were taken around noon. I know there's some fluctuation in T levels during the day, but I think I'd likely still be low for my age even if they were taking right as I woke up.

    Total Test: 274 ng/dl
    Free Test: 44.7 pg/ml
    DHEA: 380 ng/dl
    LH: 4 miu/ml
    FSH: 3 miu/ml
    Prolactin: 8 ng/ml
  5. New Member
    Ad Fortitudo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    39
    Rep Power
    43

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.TT View Post
    I would be very specific, with your Dr,. and list all the tests that you want.
    E2, TT, FT, DHT, SHBG, LH, FSH, DHEAs, PROGESTERONE, PROLACTIN, TSH, FT3, FT4 to start with.

    Yes, vasectomys can cause TT problems, as can opiates, but, lets see the labs first.

    Congratulations on turning your life around, now getting a higher testosterone level should be the easy part.
    +1.... congrats on making some changes.

    Mr. TT is right .... these labs are all important.

    The stuff you posted can tell you a lot, but not the full story.

    Your DHEA is decent, which indicates that you should be able to make testosterone. But, your total testosterone is really really low.

    Your BMI is 37.9: Do you still have lots of extra fat? In particular, do you have lots fat around your midsection? This is important because fat is the greatest source of aromatase in both males and females [1]; as you're aware, aromatase is what converts testosterone to estradiol (E2).

    It's also possible that you have low SHBG. Estrogen (estradiol/E2) lowers SHBG. This would raise your free testosterone (which is really really high) but also increase the likelihood that your testosterone gets converted to E2 or DHT.

    Thyroid function can also monkey with SHBG, not to mention fat loss, so you need to get that tested.

    Hypotheses:
    1) Extra fat is causing high aromatase activity -> high E2.
    2) Extra E2 is lowering SHBG -> increased free test and lower total test.

    Tests to run:
    -Sensitive Estradiol
    -TSH
    -Total T4 (this will indicate the total output of your thyroid; i.e., if it's working)
    -Free T4
    -Free T3







    [1] See Wikipedia: Adipose_tissue
    Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body.
    -Seneca
  6. New Member
    Ad Fortitudo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    39
    Rep Power
    43

    Reputation

    Note that in most states, you can get lab tests without a doctor's requisition now.

    Just google "labs without doctor order"
    Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body.
    -Seneca
  7. New Member
    Ad Fortitudo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    39
    Rep Power
    43

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptnCaveman View Post
    Quick note, I had them tested in the afternoon because I couldn't get the lab work done in the morning. Around 3pm. The last test levels in the previous post were taken around noon.
    Timing could also have an effect. Testosterone levels will probably be higher in the morning. Ideally, you should get your labs done in the morning (before 9:30)....and in most cases, without taking supplements, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptnCaveman View Post
    DHEA: 380 ng/dl
    You're no longer taking DHEA, right? You stopped?
    Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body.
    -Seneca
  8. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ad Fortitudo View Post

    Your BMI is 37.9: Do you still have lots of extra fat? In particular, do you have lots fat around your midsection? This is important because fat is the greatest source of aromatase in both males and females [1]; as you're aware, aromatase is what converts testosterone to estradiol (E2).

    It's also possible that you have low SHBG. Estrogen (estradiol/E2) lowers SHBG. This would raise your free testosterone (which is really really high) but also increase the likelihood that your testosterone gets converted to E2 or DHT.

    Thyroid function can also monkey with SHBG, not to mention fat loss, so you need to get that tested.

    Hypotheses:
    1) Extra fat is causing high aromatase activity -> high E2.
    2) Extra E2 is lowering SHBG -> increased free test and lower total test.

    Thank you very much for your insight! I agree with your hypothesis 100%. I very much suspect high e2 may be to blame for most of my problems. I've asked my Dr. twice when he wrote the scripts for bloodwork to check my estradol levels, as I do have alot of body fat and seem to have plateaued in my weightloss and hanging onto excess fat despite being at aprox 500-1k calorie deficit. He told me it wasn't relevant the first time, and that if my endo wanted that test done they could order it the second time I asked him. I plan on finding a new pcp. I go to see an endo next week, so I'll wait and see if they will order further testing that includes e2, and shbg. If not, I'll just order the labs myself online so I can have a more detailed idea on what is happening. I bought some Erase a few weeks ago, to experiment with and see if it caused me to lose weight as well as relieve some symptoms of what I felt was an estro spike when I took DAA for two weeks, but have held off on using it since I got my blood results back, as I wanted to stop anything that would effect my hormones so I could get accurate test results.

    I have had problems in the past with my thyroid tests suggesting I might be hypo, but follow up tests would come back as normal. I did try to increase my thyroid function over the summer by increasing my iodine intake via kelp pills, but I stopped taking those months ago because they seemed to cause anxiousness (guess that means they were working). Both my mother, and her mother have thyroid problems, so I assume trouble is very likely in my genes, but will test to see where I stand now. Also, you mentioned that free T was high? The lab results I have from quest say that the average range is 35.0-155.0 pg/ml. Is mine still considered high for my age/total T levels?

    I did find some interesting information last night on a condition called hypogonadal-obesity cycle. It really sounds like what may have happened with me being so fat in the past and still having large amounts of body fat which I'm having trouble losing despite diet and exercise. If my E2 comes back as high, would a prescription strength SERM or AI correct this problem and allow my test levels to return to normal?

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10342671
  9. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ad Fortitudo View Post

    You're no longer taking DHEA, right? You stopped?
    Right, I have stopped. I took it for about two months over the summer. 50mg a day. I know typically a man my age shouldn't see any noticeable results, and it effects people differently, but when I took it, I felt GREAT! I had the most energy and was the happiest I have been since I was a child. I mean unreal energy and felt on top of the world. Also extreme libido, and erections all day long. Slept great, felt rested. Up until around the end of the two months when I just lost all my energy and felt sick and tired and extremely sad and couldn't sleep at night. Which from what I have read seems like it may have had something to do with e2 increasing tremendously to try and balance my body out. Short-term though, I felt amazing. I was thinking it could have been because if my T levels were low then, it may have increased them to normal levels?
  10. New Member
    Ad Fortitudo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    39
    Rep Power
    43

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptnCaveman View Post
    Also, you mentioned that free T was high? The lab results I have from quest say that the average range is 35.0-155.0 pg/ml. Is mine still considered high for my age/total T levels?
    I spoke too soon....

    I definitely should have asked for a reference range.

    Quest is probably using a different methodology than my lab for free test, because your reference range is way different (mine is 8.7-25.1 pg/mL).

    CORRECTION: Your free testosterone is a little on the low side.

    That said, you might still be aromatizing a lot of your testosterone.
    Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body.
    -Seneca
  11. New Member
    Ad Fortitudo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    39
    Rep Power
    43

    Reputation

    Some questions:

    What's your diet like?
    - Ratio of fat/protein/cabs?
    - Do you eat lots of junk food?

    What supplements do you take?

    What is your vitamin D level? Has that been tested?
    Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body.
    -Seneca
  12. New Member
    Mr.TT's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  175 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    187
    Rep Power
    306

    Reputation

    If you decide to order your own blood tests, here is my favorite WEB site, privatemdlabs.com.
    Search the WEB for the 15% off code, or ask someone here.
    My favorite tests are

    Hormone Panel for Females $59.99
    or
    Hormone Panel with F&T Testosterone & SHBG $149.99

    As for CORTISOL tests... I use ZRT Labs saliva cortisol test, that tests 4 spit samples taken over a day.
    Order the ZRT test from .canaryclub.org for the best price.
  13. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ad Fortitudo View Post
    Some questions:

    What's your diet like?
    - Ratio of fat/protein/cabs?
    - Do you eat lots of junk food?

    What supplements do you take?

    What is your vitamin D level? Has that been tested?


    My diet is pretty good. I don't measure or calorie count religiously, but I do keep an estimated total most days, unless I eat out. I usually eat around 2k-2.5k calories a day. Aprox 150-200g protein, 20g fat (very little of that is saturated, maybe 2-3g.), and I've been trying to adjust my carbs lately to see what my body needs to have energy and still lose weight, so it's been around 50-125g lately, it seems like 100g is around where I need to be. Still learning though. As for junk food, I try to avoid it at all costs nowadays. (recovering junkie ) I try to eat organic whenever possible. My protein comes from lean chicken, free-range eggs, and wild caught fish. No red meat currently. Just started buying whey protein isolate to supplement my intake so I don't have to cook as much meat. I don't eat processed foods unless the ingredients are mostly natural, I try not to eat any processed sugars, or artificial sweeteners, or msg, or gluten when possible. Use only sea salt.

    Right now I'm taking a "Raw One" whole food multi, 2g vitamin C, b complex, zinc 50mg, fish oil, white willow bark and 5mg melatonin before bed. I was told by my Dr. about a year ago my vitamin D levels were low, and did supplement with 5,000 iu up to about a month or two ago. My multi has vitamin D in it, 800iu, so I figured that'd be enough to keep me from being deficient.
  14. New Member
    tenntarheel's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"   lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    63
    Rep Power
    59

    Reputation

    You may be getting more like 1200-1500 calories a day, or maybe even less if you have lower carb days without raising fats and protein. I think you should definitely add about 30g more healthy fats to your daily intake. Fats are important for hormones
  15. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    Yes, there are some days I probably only get about 1.5k calories in. I haven't started to count calories to stringently yet, and don't want to put myself on a strict dieting plan, because I probably wouldn't stay committed to it. I've really just learned to make health conscience choices about food in the past year, after years of eating sh*t. Right now, I eat when I'm hungry, and don't when I'm not. My body fat seems to be slooooowly disappearing, despite what seems like a recent plateau.

    I'll eat between 3-5 times a day. I also drink a gallon of distilled water everyday. I just started supplementing whey protein shakes into my diet, so I usually have 2-3 of them a day, depending on if it's a workout day, plus my meals. I eat the same foods 90% of the week. Lean chicken, fish, eggs, grapes, bananas, mushrooms, rice, organic granola cereal, and broccoli. (Not mixed together lol) If I do eat less healthy once a week it is if my wife and I go out to chinese, which I just eat chicken and fish (usually covered in unhealthy sauces or oils) and veggies, and sushi, or at home I'll have ocassional organic sweet potato and corn tortilla chips with freshly made salsa. That's only once a week, or less. I plan on making some adjustments after I get my test levels into normal ranges for my age, but for right now I try to keep my calories lower and stay around atleast a 1k deficit from my BMR. I know that healthy fats and cholesterol are essential for the production of hormones, but I don't think I'm at such a deficit that it'd be effecting my hormones negatively. However, if I'm wrong for thinking this, please let me know. I just don't want to be taking in excess calories right now with so much weight to lose still.
  16. New Member
    Ad Fortitudo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    39
    Rep Power
    43

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by tenntarheel View Post
    You may be getting more like 1200-1500 calories a day, or maybe even less if you have lower carb days without raising fats and protein. I think you should definitely add about 30g more healthy fats to your daily intake. Fats are important for hormones
    +1

    The leanest I've ever been (about 9% body fat, after years of difficulty loosing that last 10 lbs.) was on a very high fat diet. I was eating about 50% fat, 30% protein, and 20% carbs.

    Most of the fat came from grass-fed beef, olive oil, and coconut oil (note that coconut oil is almost all saturated fat).

    My hypothesis on that was basically the same as what Tenntarheel suggested: that the additional fat increased steroid hormone production.

    YMMV, but it might be something to experiment with.
    Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body.
    -Seneca
  17. New Member
    Ad Fortitudo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    39
    Rep Power
    43

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptnCaveman View Post
    Right now I'm taking a "Raw One" whole food multi, 2g vitamin C, b complex, zinc 50mg, fish oil, white willow bark and 5mg melatonin before bed. I was told by my Dr. about a year ago my vitamin D levels were low, and did supplement with 5,000 iu up to about a month or two ago. My multi has vitamin D in it, 800iu, so I figured that'd be enough to keep me from being deficient.
    Supplementation looks good compared to what most people do for increased testosterone. You might consider adding some BCAAs as some have suggested that it can increase testosterone (jury is still sort of out though).

    Definitely get your vitamin D levels re-tested. It's one of those things that's cheap to test, easy to fix, and can have a positive effect on a variety of health issues and biomarkers.

    Most recent research suggests that levels of 50-60 ng/mL is healthy.

    It also has been shown to be related to testosterone levels (this is from the Vitamin D council; I can't post the link yet because I don't have enough posts):

    The study led by Katharina Nimptsch at Havard School of Publich Health and colleagues shows that men whose vitamin D levels in their blood were in the highest quintile have 8 percent higher levels of total testosterone, compared to those whose vitamin D levels were in the lowest quintile.
    The testosterone/vitamin-d link has also been found elsewhere. [1]

    [1] Wehr, E., Pilz, S., Boehm, B. O., & März, W. (2009). Association of vitamin D status with serum androgen levels in men. Clinical Endocrinology.
    Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body.
    -Seneca
  18. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    Thank you for your knowledgeable insight, Ad Fortitudo. And thank you everyone else. It is very appreciated!

    I didn't factor in the fat I get from cooking oils into my calorie estimate , so that does increase my fat intake by probably atleast 15 grams a day.

    I've been doing some research and came across some pubmed articles that may explain what might be going on with me. I still have to get E2 bloods drawn to be sure, but based on the info and history I provided it should allow you folks to draw a possible conclusion. I'd really love to here some people's thoughts on this. It goes on the assumption that my e2 is way to high because of excess bodyfat, and aromatizing most of my T.

    Basically, with my history of being obese, along with binge drinking and opiate abuse, my liver took ALOT of abuse. I had my gallbladder out in '02, and the dr said it had tons of gallstones in it. My liver enzymes were occasionly raised before I lost 95lbs, and they were raised pretty high a few weeks ago (the numbers are in my first post). I believe it's likely I have fatty liver. I've done a bit of research on it, and it looks like if it's not caused by alcohol abuse, it should be reversible once I lose enough weight. I did binge drink. I would only drink two or three times a month, but I'd consume mass amounts when I did. I don't know what kind of damage I've caused to my liver, or if there's any cirrhosis present. The articles I found on pubmed talked about damage to the liver via alcohol, (and probably fatty liver as well) cause the liver to not be able to metabolize estrogens leading to a drastic increase in them.

    So my questions for anyone who may be able to answer are these; 1.)Assuming I have no cirrhosis damage to my liver, would losing weight and exogenous test replacement as well as an AI or SERM be likely to reverse this cycle of my body converting T to E?

    2.)Assuming I have fatty liver, and/or liver damage, would supplementing exogenous Test such as Test C or E, or Androgel be a possibilty for me, or will they negatively effect my liver functions even though they are not oral formulations?

    I'm sorry I don't have estro levels yet, and this is all presumptuous, (although likely) but I just want to get my T levels up without having to go to a million dr appts before they put me on trt. I'm having numerous negative effects from my T being low, the biggest being the mental, and now it seems like all the depression, anxiety, and metal fog I've had for years are likely because of this. I just want to get treatment, and hopefully get fixed and get my life back to normal. Thanks for any input.

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10342671

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10796890

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2389244
  19. New Member
    tenntarheel's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"   lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    63
    Rep Power
    59

    Reputation

    I truly can't remember where I read it, but there were some studies that used Anavar(Oxandrolone) to help repair liver values and the such. Again, I'll have to try to find the article, but I have heard on numerous occasions that Anavar is actually beneficial to your liver. It may have been disproven by now, but I'm gonna look into it.
  20. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by tenntarheel View Post
    I truly can't remember where I read it, but there were some studies that used Anavar(Oxandrolone) to help repair liver values and the such. Again, I'll have to try to find the article, but I have heard on numerous occasions that Anavar is actually beneficial to your liver. It may have been disproven by now, but I'm gonna look into it.
    Cool, I appreciate it. I'll await your response.
  21. Senior Member
    MuscleGauge1's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,568
    Rep Power
    258612

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    I think test levels can be tricky. You really have to monitor them closely to see what's going on inside your body to get an accurate read on them. I know for me, I noticed when I was stacking some test with winstrol it actually boosted my test level pretty high but then when I got off of it I had problems later... You really have to be careful with the type of test you use and make sure its from a trusted source. I know I was getting mine from a doctor so I was covered but you don't want to get your stuff from the black market and get screwed in the end. Make sure it is doctor approved stuff before you put it into your body. I think that's the key really. Also, make sure that you don't take too much of it at once. Too much can have you RAGING......Trust me I've been there man, its not a good think at all. Be careful and follow a good program and oyour test levels should be sky high bro! Good luck to you
  22. New Member
    Ad Fortitudo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    39
    Rep Power
    43

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptnCaveman View Post
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10342671

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10796890

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2389244
    Very cool finds.

    I can't be sure, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the booze was a major contributing factor.

    Additionally, I don't have references on this right now, but I've read before that beer is worse than hard liquor. The hops is supposed to be xenoestrogenic. Might be a good idea to switch to liquor or wine if you're going to indulge every now and again.
    Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body.
    -Seneca
  23. New Member
    tenntarheel's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"   lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    63
    Rep Power
    59

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleGauge1
    I think test levels can be tricky. You really have to monitor them closely to see what's going on inside your body to get an accurate read on them. I know for me, I noticed when I was stacking some test with winstrol it actually boosted my test level pretty high but then when I got off of it I had problems later... You really have to be careful with the type of test you use and make sure its from a trusted source. I know I was getting mine from a doctor so I was covered but you don't want to get your stuff from the black market and get screwed in the end. Make sure it is doctor approved stuff before you put it into your body. I think that's the key really. Also, make sure that you don't take too much of it at once. Too much can have you RAGING......Trust me I've been there man, its not a good think at all. Be careful and follow a good program and oyour test levels should be sky high bro! Good luck to you
    I don't think he was talking about using black market gear at all. Was it a surprise that your test levels were high while using Test and Winstrol?? I hope not. He's not simply looking to cycle. I think he wants his normal ranges back so he feels good and healthy again. Last thing, Roid Rage is a myth. It only amplifies personality traits that are already there.
  24. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by tenntarheel View Post
    I don't think he was talking about using black market gear at all. Was it a surprise that your test levels were high while using Test and Winstrol?? I hope not. He's not simply looking to cycle. I think he wants his normal ranges back so he feels good and healthy again. Last thing, Roid Rage is a myth. It only amplifies personality traits that are already there.
  25. Board Moderator
    Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Age
    49
    Posts
    11,709
    Rep Power
    986895

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.TT View Post
    Yes, vasectomys can cause TT problems,.
    References please?!
  26. New Member
    Mr.TT's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  175 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    187
    Rep Power
    306

    Reputation

    Knowing my luck,


    ww.vasectomy-information.com/moreinfo/fahey.htm
    ww.gynecomastia.org/smf/index.php?topic=1680.0
    ww.scribd.com/doc/40403680/37/Vasectomy-and-the-Andropause

    And a number of POSTers on this site have stated that it happened to them, everyone could be wrong.

    But, it is something to consider, before you snip. It is trama, to the boys.
  27. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    So I saw an endocrinologist last week and they ordered some more extensive tests which I had done and got the results of most of them back. The Dr. indicated she suspected a HPA problem, but wasn't convinced my T levels were low because they were drawn in the afternoon. I'm waiting on results of a 24hr urine cortisol test, as well as TSH, and free T4 levels which I will post when I get them. I'm confused as to what is attributing to the low T levels because most of the other tests (E2, SHBG)seem to be within normal ranges. If anyone can see something jumping out at them please let me know. I know the cause is likely secondary, I'm just not sure what to look for. I will be following up with the endo after the other test results come back, but in the mean time I'd like to get some thoughts. Matrix, I'd love to here your take on this. I know you can't be sure without a detailed history and test results, but any insight is appreciated. Thanks guys.

    Labs drawn at 7am

    Total Test: 307 (250-1100ng/dl)
    Free Test: 53.2 (46.0-224.0pg/ml)
    Bioavailable Test: 109.4 (110.0-575.0ng/dl)
    SHBG: 22 (10-50nmol-L)
    Albumin: 4.5 (3.6-5.1g/dl)
    Estradiol: 34 (11-44pg/ml)
    LH: 4 (1-12miu/ml)
    FSH: 3 (1-12miu/ml)
    Prolactin: 8 (3-19ng/ml)

    Also will include some other tests for referencing:

    Fasting insulin: 2 (<17)
    Fasting Glucose baseline: 82 (70-99)
    Fasting Glucose 1hr: 138 (<200)
    Fasting glucose 2hr: 92 (<140)

    I've been having some elevated liver enzymes which my Dr and I don't know the cause of yet. Could there be any correlation between liver problems (probably caused by fatty liver) and low testo levels, or are they likely unrelated? I can't find any info that directly connects the two, but I'm no expert. Any help is very much appreciated.
  28. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    Bump for some responses.
  29. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    So I got a call tonight from the CRNP at the endocrinology office that did the testing telling me my t levels are within normal range and provided the results of my cortisol and thyroid levels come back normal, they won't treat me with any trt, and most likely will do nothing other than moniter my levels via bloodwork periodically. I tried to explain to her that my levels are half of what a mans my age should be, but she told me that since my levels were 'normal' range, the insurance company wouldn't even pay for treatment... Is this bull****? I feel like that was just a cop out saying insurance wouldn't cover treatment, and the doctor just didn't feel like it was necessary. Has anyone had experience with insurance not covering treatment due to blood levels? Does my 307 total test even warrant treatment? I one hundred percent feel that it would make a huge difference. When I took dhea over the summer, I felt amazing! And it metabolizes into test in the body, so I'm sure trt would get me feeling like myself again. Please, advice, comments?
  30. New Member
    v4lu3s's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  230 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    336
    Rep Power
    643

    Reputation

    I may have missed something, but what kind of body fat levels are you currently at? I know you said you had a history of obesity and poor life style, and since you mention fatty liver it sounds like you are very recently down in weight or are still working on it. I have seen some stuff about a correlation between liver problems and low test, but nothing about causation.
    Also what about current diet? Is it balanced or is it hypo caloric in an effort to lose more weight?
    I guess what i an getting at is if your life style may still not be at a state where you have fully recovered from your past. I do agree that your levels are lower than they could be, but if you can get them back without trt, our at least get to where you feel better without it you would be doing good. I know you may feel desperate and i understand that having home for several years of not feeling right and having levels at the bottom of the range....but i also have a different health history...
  31. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by v4lu3s View Post
    I may have missed something, but what kind of body fat levels are you currently at? I know you said you had a history of obesity and poor life style, and since you mention fatty liver it sounds like you are very recently down in weight or are still working on it. I have seen some stuff about a correlation between liver problems and low test, but nothing about causation.
    Also what about current diet? Is it balanced or is it hypo caloric in an effort to lose more weight?
    I guess what i an getting at is if your life style may still not be at a state where you have fully recovered from your past. I do agree that your levels are lower than they could be, but if you can get them back without trt, our at least get to where you feel better without it you would be doing good. I know you may feel desperate and i understand that having home for several years of not feeling right and having levels at the bottom of the range....but i also have a different health history...
    V4lu3s, thanks for the reply. My bf is at an estimated (by internet conversion calculator) 27%. I recently lost 96 pounds over the past 9 months. At my highest weight I was 350. Since I've lost the weight I've maintained a healthy diet. I just downloaded a calorie counter app the other day, and my daily calories come in around 1.7-2.3k. I try to listen to my body, and eat one of two more snacks when I'm hungry, and don't when I'm not, that's why I say 1.7-2.3k. My estimated bmr is around 3.3k (again, according to calculator). I've been experimenting with my macros, trying to find a ratio that works best for me. Currently around 125-150g carbs, 30-40g fat, and between 150-200g protein. I've been tweaking my intake trying to see if I feel better, or lose weight better with a certain scenario, but lately I've been having trouble losing weight, period. Despite 45mins of LISS cardio 3-4days a week, and weight training 3 days a week.

    I do have fatty liver, it was confirmed with an ultrasound last week. Since then I've been doing research on fatty liver, and it's connection to metabolism and hormones. I haven't found any definitive info, showing a connection with liver and hormones, but I've read that the liver produces the bulk of your bodies cholesterol, which all hormones are made from, and also that the liver metabolizes your thyroid and sex hormones, and also regulates your thyroid hormones (and I'm assuming sex hormones, too). The problem is that obesity seems to throw your body into this negative feedback loop, and the only way to reverse it is to lose weight. But my problem is, despite clean diet and exercise, I've hit a plateau and haven't been losing any weight for about two months now. I've varied my exercise routine, so it's not because my body got used to what I was doing. I suspect I'm having thyroid issues too, but will have to wait until this afternoon, or tomorrow to get the results of my tsh, and t4 levels to be sure. I say I suspect, because I have had some fluctuations with my thyroid levels in the past. I'll post those levels real quick for reference;

    11/08;
    :>TSH 3rd gen 2.172uIU/ML

    10/09;
    :>TSH 3rd gen 3.362uIU/ML (0.35-4.94)
    :>T4 6.4ug/dl (4.5-12.0)
    :>Total T3 1.6ng/ml (0.6-1.6)
    :>FTI 1.6 (1.6-3.4)

    01/11;

    :>TSH 3rd gen 2.617 (.35-4.94)
    :>T4 5.6 (4.5-12.0)
    :>Free T3 2.4 (1.71-3.71)

    So you can see that the've been within range, but I was researching yesterday and supposedly the standard most doctors follow for an indicator of thyroid problems is TSH. Even though the lab parameters go up to 4.94 for tsh, most educated doctors now use an upper limit of 3.00 to indicate thyroid malfunction. And supposedly if your thyroid is working correctly, t3 and t4 shouldn't be fluctuating, and should be somewhat steady. I don't know alot about the thyroid yet, so if I'm wrong for thinking these show potential problems please tell me. I do have a family history of thyroid problems.

    I've been having slightly elevated liver enzymes since about 2006. I had my gallbladder removed in 02, and seems like since then I've had liver and gi problems. I had to go have a bile duct opened by laproscope in 03. After that, no problems that I know of until 2006 when liver enzymes started staying elevated. They only remained elevated occasionally. In 2011 before I lost weight ALT was elevated to 102 (5-47) but other liver functions were fine. Since I have lost the weight the enzymes have shot waaay up, and my pcp still isnt sure why. He wants me to see a liver specialist. I've been tested for hep A,B,andC. All negative. I've been researching alot about NAFLD. It seems to go in stages, where if left to progress the fat and blockages will inflame it, and the inflammation will cause fibrosis, and eventually cirrhosis. Then your liveer fails, and your only options are transplant, or death. I think there's a good possibility that is what's happening, and it's inflamed due to being so clogged. I'll likely be getting a biopsy to see the extent of the damage in the coming weeks, and so I'll know more then. The thing is though, that there isn't any accepted treatment available to reverse the damage currently, as they don't understand the disease enough yet supposedly. I've read that it can be caused by consuming an imbalance of omega 6 to omega 3 fats. Also sugars seem to play a role. The only way the seems to slow or reverse progression is losing weight and eventually you will lose the fat on the liver as well. Which would be fine since I want to lose weight anyway, but I'm really struggling to lose weight lately... I read a few pubmed studies that show promise with using HGH as a treatment for NAFLD, because HGH promotes an increase in fat-free mass, and fat reduction, which makes me think that an anabolic state is very important factor in weight management for treating NAFLD. And at 307 total test, and EXTREMELY low bioavailable test, I'm obviously not in an anabolic state. That's a big reason why I think hrt would be beneficial, as well as the emotional issues and mental fatigue I suffer from taking a huge toll on my quality of life.

    The problem is I seem to be stuck in this obesity induced negative feedback loop catabolic state that promotes fat retention and storage, and it's just causing my liver more strain and eventually if I don't lose the weight will lead to cirrhosis and eventually me having to get a liver transplant.. Which needless to say I don't want to happen. I haven't found a doctor who is open-minded about treating trt yet, and honestly I don't know what to do! I know to a doctor, I probably don't look like an ideal canidate, but I also know I need to lose weight, but as I said above, I'm struggling! I eat healthy, I exercise frequently, I'm not sure what I can be doing differently to continue losing weight. It seems like my hormones are working completely against me! I'm sick of feeling like **** emotionally, and not being able to remember stuff I did 2 days ago. I just want to get my body into balance, and continue my weight loss and live and enjoy my life. I'm 28, I just want to feel like it again.


    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18405489
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17073635
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17324404
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11126339
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22268394 <---check this one out


    I welcome anyone's thoughts and/or insights.
  32. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    I got my TSH and T4 levels back. My TSH is 5.013 (0.35-4.94) and T4 is 7.3 (4.5-12.0). Seems like my thyroid crapped out, and I have hypothyroidism as well. Am I correct in that thinking?
  33. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    Still looking for some sound advice. I don't really know for certain what is going on with my hormones, and I'm finding it really tough to get a doctor that's willing to take an in-depth look. I'm driving myself crazy trying to analyze EVERY single scenario of what is happening. The doctors I've seen just look at me like I'm an idiot when I mention all this stuff. I went to my pcp today, to discuss my thyroid levels and try to get him to help me understand what's going on with my hormones, but he just prescribed me .5mcg synthroid and sent me on my way. I spent about ten minutes talking to him about the possibility of being treated for trt, and gave him 6-7 pubmed articles and studies I printed out to justify my reasoning, but he told me it might be possible depending on what the doctor who operates the practice decides, and had me schedule to discuss it with him next week, which will likely be a waste of time and gas. I'm so frustrated right now. I just want a doctor who will look at the underlying cause of the hormone imbalances, and treat them so I can feel like a normal person again. I don't know where to go from here.
  34. Advanced Member
    vassille's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  240 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    968
    Rep Power
    48008

    Reputation

    why was the gallblader removed?
    I agree with you, hormonally you def need some help.
    If you have the cash just go to a clinique, they will put you on HRT. If you want insurance to pay then your test level needs to be lower than 300 or whatever the min range is these days.
    As for Thyroid go with armour or a combo of t4/t3. Much better then taking t4 alone.
  35. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    I had it removed in '02 because I was having severe stomach pain and cramping. They took it out and I stopped having the pain. When you say clinique, do you mean like an anti-aging clinic? One of the things I don't understand is even though my free and total T were still considered within range, my bio available T was low. From what I've read, that's supposed to be the best indicator of how T is functioning. So I don't get why these doctors aren't going by that when deciding if I need to be treated. I did read a little about Armour Thyroid last night on the 'Stop the thyroid madness' website, and it does seem like it's the way to go, but I need to find a doc that's actually going to take these issues seriously so I can get properly evaluated, and find out what's going on and get treated.
  36. Advanced Member
    vassille's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  240 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    968
    Rep Power
    48008

    Reputation

    My bad yes anti-aging clinic. Your test is low but is not low off the chart. This chart is devised by the insurance co so unless your levels are off the chart they dont have to pay. A regular doc that doesnt deal with insurance will most likely start you on HRT. Also many doctors do not even want to deal with HRT because it's considered steroids and they dont want to deal with the stigma of helping you be on steroids. It's stupid to be honest.
    You can also go underground if you find a person to show you the ropes it's actually quite easy.
    The problem with removing the gallblader is that it does play a role in the body. Read up on it...im not sure you did the right thing by having it removed but that;s just me looking from the outside in.
  37. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    I agree. I was young at the time, and didn't know better. I realize if it was in there, it had important functions to serve, but hindsight's 20-20. If I had a source I'd probably go the underground route, just for the sheer fact that I don't want to spend who knows how many more weeks or months looking for a doc to actually treat me, and it'd prob be cheaper than going to an anti-aging clinic. I've researched proper dosing and techniques, as well as proper pct and blood work to watch for potential problems. I just don't have any access at this point. You're absolutely right about doctors not wanting to 'help you be on steroids'. When I discussed treatment with my pcp yesterday, he went into this spiel about testosterone being dangerous, and all of these bodybuilders in the past dying from it and all this other bs that isn't completely true. What's funny is that science is now proving that low testosterone is far more dangerous to one's health than high testosterone, especially when it comes to heart and circulation. High estrogen and/or extremely imbalanced hormones stemming from improper use of steroids or naturally occurring for whatever reason is what science is finding is causing all the negative side-effects. Doctors just really need to catch up to the times and continue their education so that they stay current on research in this field so people don't have to suffer needlessly with these problems.
  38. New Member
    v4lu3s's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  230 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    336
    Rep Power
    643

    Reputation

    I wish i could offer more advice, it looks like you probably would benefit from hrt not so much from a sexual or performance perspective, but most definitely for increasing lean mass and reducing fat mass. It seems like your situation is WAY over your pcp's head though. A progressive endocrinologist or anti-aging clinic may be your best bet for progress. Just make sure that whoever you end up with understands that your goal is not to bee on drugs the ready of your life, but to restore natural function.
  39. Advanced Member
    vassille's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  240 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    968
    Rep Power
    48008

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptnCaveman View Post
    I agree. I was young at the time, and didn't know better. I realize if it was in there, it had important functions to serve, but hindsight's 20-20. If I had a source I'd probably go the underground route, just for the sheer fact that I don't want to spend who knows how many more weeks or months looking for a doc to actually treat me, and it'd prob be cheaper than going to an anti-aging clinic. I've researched proper dosing and techniques, as well as proper pct and blood work to watch for potential problems. I just don't have any access at this point. You're absolutely right about doctors not wanting to 'help you be on steroids'. When I discussed treatment with my pcp yesterday, he went into this spiel about testosterone being dangerous, and all of these bodybuilders in the past dying from it and all this other bs that isn't completely true. What's funny is that science is now proving that low testosterone is far more dangerous to one's health than high testosterone, especially when it comes to heart and circulation. High estrogen and/or extremely imbalanced hormones stemming from improper use of steroids or naturally occurring for whatever reason is what science is finding is causing all the negative side-effects. Doctors just really need to catch up to the times and continue their education so that they stay current on research in this field so people don't have to suffer needlessly with these problems.
    I've been on HRT for many years, I dont see anything to suggest testosterone is dangerous but I dont abuse it either.
  40. New Member
    CaptnCaveman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    115
    Rep Power
    2235

    Reputation

    Hey guys,

    Quick update on my situation since I last posted. I mentioned I had some liver problems before. I was having elevated liver enzymes for the past 3 years and they spiked after recent weight loss without any explanation (that I'm aware of). I followed up with a hepatologist, who ran some more liver function tests, as well as more specific tests trying to see if I was having some type of auto-immune problem.

    Anyway, long story short, I started taking milk thistle a few months ago, and when she tested my LFT's, they came back within normal ranges. She wanted to do a biopsy before the test results came back, but left it up to me whether or not I wanted to have it done after the tests came back normal. I'm gonna wait and monitor my LFT's and play it by ear before I do the biopsy.

    I have been doing alot of reading about the liver, and how it affects metabolism. I've read articles and even some medical studies that tie fatty liver to thyroid dysfunction. I'm not exactly sure how it all works, as I'm just a simple man, but it's food for thought for some of the guys in here having thyroid problems and have no idea why. The majority of people don't even know they have fatty liver. I theorize it's like a clogged drain. Since your liver filters everything you need to remove from your body, if it's overloaded it gets clogged up and starts malfunctioning, which probably makes your body's metabolism slow down so that it doesn't over tax the liver and cause it to fail.

    edrv.endojournals.org/content/29/7/939.full

    So I attribute my thyroid malfunction to the fatty liver. The only treatment for the fatty liver is weight loss, (which is tough with fatty liver, and hypothyroid) so I'm going to keep working towards accomplishing that. I'm going to try cutting out most sugars, and polyunsaturated fats from my diet, as they're both attributed to causing fatty liver, and I'm going to continue to supplement with milk thistle, vitamin E, and liver cleanses, as well as Choline and probably Resveratrol since I've read they can be beneficial.

    I'm just putting this all in case it helps someone in the future. As far as the low test, since test effects metabolism as well, (and since I'm not smart enough to figure out the root cause, nor are any Drs' I've found yet) I'm going to attribute that to the fatty liver as well. Although I'd love to know for sure. It's not likely it's a pituitary problem if even though my LH and FSH are low normal, my TSH was high, right? That would show some activity up there. I feel like estrogen is playing a role, even though my E2 was supposed to be within normal limits. I wish I could find a smart Dr to help me figure this out for certain.

    I did find an endo who put me on trt though. He saw my test levels, and was like "You're low, do you want the cream or injections?" I'm now on 100mg of test cyp weekly. I started my first injection fri, and I felt great the next day! Just like myself again. I had energy, the mental fog was gone. It's great! I'm starting to lose the rush though, which makes me think I could be aromatizing alot of it, since I'm still pretty fat. That's something I'm going to keep an eye on. I started running pes erase saturday just in case. Im going to use the bottle, then may look into a board sponser for some arimidex for my mice.

    Does anyone have any info on the best estro tests to use for men, and how I would dose my mice with a very low dose protocol of adex? It's important for me to keep estro in check, but not so low it causes problems. I just want to lose more weight, and hopefully get my liver to shed the fat and start functioning correctly again. I know it's not going to happen over night, but I'm commited, and I'm in it for the long haul to make this happen. If anyone has any knowledge or experience with fatty liver, or a suitable diet to help reverse it, or trt and estro advice, please, help a guy out.
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Weird question about activity level
    By pitching101 in forum Weight Loss
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 05-13-2009, 08:57 AM
  2. A question about testosterone..
    By Fatal Wisdom in forum Nutrition / Health
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-06-2007, 08:30 PM
  3. quick question about lipid levels
    By Blownkbgt in forum Post Cycle Therapy
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-22-2007, 10:52 AM
  4. Question about Test Levels
    By coffee4me in forum 35 and Older
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 06-27-2006, 10:26 AM
  5. question about sugar levels
    By good_guye28 in forum General Chat
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-27-2005, 07:29 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in