Results of three-week trial of DAA
- 10-08-2012, 11:05 AM
Results of three-week trial of DAA
I'm 60, fit, not on TRT, but with the usual list of low-T symptoms (getting old). After Labcorp test results in August, I started taking DHEA at 20 mg per day, and decided to do a three-week trial of d-aspartic acid - the sodium version from SNS - at 3 gm per day. I took it with breakfast after getting diarrhea taking it on an empty stomach.
The only difference I noticed was a modest improvement in erectile function. No noticeable effect on libido or mood. But I did lab tests again the morning after the end of the trial:
Total T ------------------- 693 --------------- 616 ----- (348-1197 ng/dL - all)
Free T (direct) ------------ 11.6 -------------- 10.4 ---- (6.6-18.1 pg/mL - 60+)
E2 ------------------------ 16.8 -------------- 21 ------ (7.6-42.6 pg/mL)
DHEA-S ------------------- 112.9 ------------- 335.1 --- (33.6-249 ug/dL - 60+)
So, as far as T levels are concerned, DAA appears to have been a total dud since both total and free T were lowered, not raised. I was surprised that DHEA went up as much as it did on only 20 mg per day for a relatively short time.
I did this trial to see if increased T would produce an improvement in my symptoms, thinking that if it did then perhaps TRT might be appropriate for me even though my total T appears ok. But it looks like I'll have to do a real TRT trial to find that out.
But I must say, this is a disappointment that DAA had no effect on T, particularly after the reported study results showing that this form of DAA produced a 42% increase in T after only 12 days. I don't know if I can blame it for the actual reduction in T because that could have come from the increase in E2. And the increased E2 could have come from the DHEA. But still, it's hard to see any benefit at all from the DAA.
Well, I just wanted to report this in case it might be of use to others in the future, and to see if anyone had a comment on these results. Also, has anyone else had good results with the SNS brand?
- 10-08-2012, 11:09 AM
Good information. I'm 63 and have been taking DAA off and on for years. I've never notice much of a change and always wondered if it was doing anything for me.
- 10-08-2012, 12:50 PM
I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
10-08-2012, 02:38 PM
Do you have LH levels and Ranges? That would be the indicator if DAA did anything...
HCG will up your TT, and you can sublingual it ( yes Matrix real HCG, it works sublingually). YOUTUBE has lots of mix your own videos.
Are you still off the ADEX? your E2's look really low for OUR age.
I am testing Stinging Nettles Root Extract's effect on my FT, right now, and I expect get blood labs drawn in a few days...
I'll post results as soon as I get them.
10-08-2012, 05:26 PM
Well, The Matrix, is there a brand you like?
Mr TT, yes I am still off Arimidex. My last dose was August 6, or two months before the last tests. I agree that my E2 seems low. I don't have a lot of bodyfat, but am not skinny (5'10", 170). I took it for several years, beginning at an E2 level of 48, but the dose needed to stay in the low 20's consistently dropped as time went on even though my weight and bodyfat didn't change. The last dose level, which actually took me too low, was 1/800 mg per day, which is 1 mg spread over more than two years, which is a near-homeopathic dose. I think there may be something we don't know about the long-term effects of taking Arimidex.
I do not have LH levels. Never tested for that.
Where does one get real HCG?
Well I look forward to your nettle results. My prediction would be that if there is any effect, your free T will stay the same, but your total T will drop. Unless your luck runs better than mine. :-) Anyway, my concern about nettle is that it supposedly also inhibits conversion of T to DHT, which is not something I want.
10-08-2012, 05:40 PM
What brand did you use? I must have overlooked that part.
SNS DAA and T-Force both are favorites around here.
10-08-2012, 05:52 PM
My favorite place to get HCG was the same place I get still get generic Aromasin, but, they stopped selling HCG earlier this year.
If I mention this Indian WEB site, David Dunn, will stomp on me (he is scary). I have found that HCG diet user support groups, have
well guarded lists of sites still selling HCG.
200 IUs of sublingual HCG daily, upped my TT from 600 to 800, and did not effect (lower) my LH.
Your ADEX speculation is worthy of discussion, on this site.
10-08-2012, 07:05 PM
Damn. I wouldn't do anything to mess with those test levels.
10-08-2012, 07:22 PM
10-09-2012, 11:37 AM
Yes, it was SNS. That's the sodium formulation that is supposedly the exact form used in the original study that led to a 42% increase in T in 12 days. So I thought I was being careful to pick the right brand. I'm not sure it makes sense to try another one. It's not the cost of the product, it's the cost of the lab tests. I don't know. Maybe DAA just doesn't work for me, in any form.
Four years ago, when I didn't have these symptoms, my free T was 17.1 (now 10.4). Total T was 763 (now 616). So while total is still ok, free T has dropped a lot. So that's why I'm considering TRT. Maybe it's crazy to consider that, but I haven't found another solution, and my doctor and I have checked all the other usual suspects. I had hoped that the DAA trial would at least give me an indication whether higher T would help with the symptoms, but since DAA didn't raise T at all - the reserse in fact - it told me nothing.
10-09-2012, 11:42 AM
I think only a crazy doctor would consider putting you on TRT for levels like that. I'd be almost certain that it is something else causing your symptoms.
10-09-2012, 06:36 PM
I think you should look for other issues since your labs are better than mine were when i was 30....
10-09-2012, 06:49 PM
Ditto, at 21 my levels were 650ish.Originally Posted by v4lu3s
Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
10-17-2012, 06:27 PM
You lucky bastard,my levels have been 280 all my life,even at 24.
So DAA is bunK?
But I have 2 tubs of it,there was a sale!
10-17-2012, 06:39 PM
- 5'10" 183 lbs.
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
10-17-2012, 06:58 PM
DAA did nothing for me. Before getting on TRT, I tried every other way to increase my natural levels and ran labs while on DAA. After 2 runs, it actually lowered total test about 15 points.
10-17-2012, 07:07 PM
10-17-2012, 07:08 PM
Dude. Your DAA is fine. It is not bunk. There are plenty of positive reviews with it.Originally Posted by Killler
10-17-2012, 07:17 PM
10-17-2012, 07:54 PM
10-17-2012, 08:01 PM
Yeah, I would never think it was SNS. More like I just happened to be one the people that didn't respond to it.
10-17-2012, 08:09 PM
Serious Nutrition Solutions rep
10-18-2012, 12:15 PM
As I said in the original post, the only change I noticed was a definite improvement in erectile function. But even with just that, I was really surprised that the lab tests showed both total and free T to be lower. And this was an apples/apples comparison - same lab, time of day, fasting.
Is there any reason to suspect that the non-sodium version of DAA would do any better? Are there people who have success on one but not the other? I haven't seen that reported anywhere.
So, I pretty much have all the symptoms of low T, and have tested all the usual suspects for other causes, with no help there, but my total T is too high for TRT, and DAA doesn't work for me. Well, it just looks like I'm screwed.
10-18-2012, 12:34 PM
Why the heck would you need to go on TRT with that high test?
Just do a cycle then.
Personally,I wouldn`t want to mess with such good levels.
You can try other test boosters and see if they work.
I don`t know what would raise your total T but I do know if you take tongkat ali,your free test will skyrocket.
That won`t be of much help to you in the gym but will affect libido very much.
10-18-2012, 12:42 PM
You should maybe try E-Pharm's Testforce 2. Read the following:
NEW TestForce2: Dual Action Natural Testosterone Elevator!
TestForce2 contains the most soluble form of d-aspartic acid combined with another remarkable amino acid known as sarcosine. This combination provides results clearly superior to other d-aspartic acid product formulations.In case you aren’t aware, d-aspartic acid is the hottest supplement ingredient on the market right now. It has more scientific literature supporting its ability to act as a natural regulator of muscle building hormone (i.e. testosterone, growth hormone) release in the body than any supplement ingredient EVER. And E-Pharm was the company to bring you the premium form of d-aspartic acid – d-aspartate calcium chelate. This form is more than 75 times as water soluble as regular d-aspartic acid and soluble over a wide pH range. This ensures the most rapid and complete absorption possible.
And now E-Pharm has taken the lead in d-aspartic acid technology again with the patent pending addition of the amino acid sarcosine. testforce
Please allow me to explain why the inclusion of sarcosine is so vital to getting the most out of d-aspartic acid. test forceWhy Sarcosine?
Let me start with some background. When d-aspartic acid (DAA) is ingested it is absorbed into the body and taken up preferentially by endocrine tissues such as the hypothalamus, pituitary, and testicles. There it stimulates the activity of what are known as NMDA receptors. NMDA receptors are located on neurons and they regulate neuronal activity. DAA binds to a specific docking site (receptor) located on the NMDA receptor known as NMDA binding site.
In the hypothalamus the stimulation of NMDA receptors leads to the production of gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH). GnRH then stimulates the pituitary gland to release luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH). LH and FSH then in turn travel to the testicles to initiate the process of steroidogenesis, which leads eventually to the release of testosterone into the blood stream. Stimulation of NMDA receptors in the hypothalamus also leads to the release of growth hormone releasing hormone (GHRH) which in turn promotes the release of growth hormone from the pituitary gland. testforce 2
So the key here is the NMDA receptor. The more you activate this receptor in the hypothalamus the greater the release of GnRH and GHRH, and ultimately testosterone and growth hormone.The NMDA receptor is somewhat unique in that it requires activation by two ligands (a ligand is like a “key” to a receptor). In the hypothalamus the main ligand for the NMDA receptor is d-aspartic acid. The secondary ligand (or co-activator) is the amino acid glycine. Both DAA and glycine have specific binding sites on the NMDA receptor. These sites are known as the NMDA binding site and the glycine binding site respectively. Think of it this way - just like how firing a nuclear missile requires two soldiers to turn two separate keys, so the NMDA receptor requires binding by two ligands to initiate its influence on the firing of a neuronal signal.
So to review, administration of DAA leads to it’s uptake into the hypothalamus and binding to the NMDA receptors there. And to activate the NMDA receptor you also require adequate levels of ligands that bind to the glycine site of the NMDA receptor. Now common sense would lead one to assume that by ingesting supplemental amounts of glycine would ensure that glycine site co-activation is ensured. However the scientific literature has shown that this method has limited efficacy.
The reason that glycine administration is not very effective at stimulating NMDA activity is not completely straight forward, but one reason is because it is efficiently removed from the synapses by the reuptake regulator Glycine Transporter 1 (GT1).Interestingly, much of the science published on the subject of stimulation of NMDA receptor activity revolves around the theory that NMDA receptor hypo-activity is a causative factor in schizophrenia. For years scientists have been investigating ways to stimulate NMDA activity as a means for treating schizophrenic patients. One of the most effective strategies has been through targeting the GT1 protein. And one of the most efficient means to do this is actually through supplementation with sarcosine.Of course we aren’t concerned about treating schizophrenia here, what we are concerned with is maximally stimulating natural production of testosterone (or growth hormone). But the mechanism in question is exactly the same for both purposes. By blocking the re-uptake of glycine you increase the concentration of glycine in neuronal synapses, and therefore increase the influence of NMDA upon nerve transmission. In essence this is the exact way some anti-depressants (such as SSRIs) work, except the goal there is to increase binding and activating of serotonin or dopamine receptors, not NMDA receptors.
Blocking glycine reuptake is not the only mechanism through which sarcosine stimulates DAA activity. Sarcosine actually can itself bind to the glycine binding site of NMDA receptors. In fact, it binds with a higher affinity than even glycine. So basically it replaces glycine as well as serves as its own reuptake inhibitor. It totally solves the glycine co-activation issue in one shot.
Knowing all these facts you can see why sarcosine produces a rather dramatic effect on NMDA neuronal transmission compared to glycine itself, or other endogenous ligands for the glycine receptor such as d-serine. test force2Conclusion
To summarize, for d-aspartic acid to work to its maximum potential it must be taken with an efficient stimulator of the glycine binding site on the NMDA receptor. The most efficient non-drug stimulator we know of is the natural amino acid sarcosine.
TestForce2 contains 3 grams of d-aspartic acid (as d-aspartate calcium chelate) and 3 grams of sarcosine per serving. It also is flavored with a light fruit punch flavor and slightly sweetened to provide a very pleasurable taste experience. It dissolves almost instantly.
So if you like d-aspartic acid you will love TestForce2. And if you were one of the few “non-responders” to d-aspartic acid then you will also love TestForce2 because you will no longer be a non-responder. You would be a fool to settle for any other d-aspartic acid supplement.
http://www.facebook.com/Celtic.Labs - Celtic Labs Representative
10-18-2012, 02:11 PM
10-18-2012, 08:11 PM
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