Ex finasteride user, my hormone profile inside

[daveydc82]

Hi all --

I'm a 30 year-old guy and this is my first post here. I'm a patient of Dr. Crisler's and one of those ex-finasteride users. I took the drug for five years (started at 23, stopped at 28) without noticeable sides and prior to quitting cold turkey, I took dutasteride for a number of months without noticeable sides on either drug. After cessation, I didn't experience sexual sides right away; it was a gradual process over the period of several months in which it became not only more difficult for me to achieve erection, but also nearly impossible for me to get fully hard and stay hard. Along with erectile dysfunction, I have a loss in libido and in general very rarely feel horny unless I'm with my girl.

My andrologist/endocrinologist ordered blood work on me several times over the course of about two years and initially prescribed Cialis for me, which worked great for a few months and then gradually lost efficacy. Two months ago I was prescribed Clomiphene Citrate (25mg every other day, which I downsized to 12.5mg every other day) by my endo and then approximately a month ago I had my first consult with Dr. Crisler, where a urine analysis and blood analysis were ordered. As you can see, my serum testosterone levels did not increase with the Clomiphene and otherwise I felt no mental or physical effects from the drug.

Looking back, it seems the only time I have experienced any real "relief" from what is commonly referred to as post-finasteride syndrome, is when I recklessly decided to take finasteride for approximately 2 weeks. I did this several months ago without the advice of anyone in the medical field and felt a boost in libido and sex drive. During this period, I noticed an ability to get hard again immediately after having sex/ejaculating -- a skill that had vanished previously. After cessation, I almost immediately had horrible ED and a general feeling of malaise.

Today, I'm pretty consistent in my symptoms. ED, low libido, low energy levels, occasional anxiety. Physically, my penis changes shape often -- sometimes taking an hourglass shape and other times shrinking up with a feeling of hardness/fibrosis.

Here's some blood work results prior to meeting with Dr. Crisler:

4/9/2011
Testosterone, Serum
Result - 422 ng/dL, Flag Reference Range - 249-836
Dihydrotestosterone
Result - 40 ng/dL, Reference Range - 30-85

7/2/2011
Testosterone, Serum
Result - 82 ng/dL, Flag Reference Range - 249-836
Dihydrotestosterone
Result - 60 ng/dL, Reference Range - 30-85

And now the urine analysis and bloods ordered by Dr. Crisler

TEST, UNITS, ABN, RESULTS, REFERENCE RANGE

Estrone (E1)	ug/24hrs		3.5	3 - 12
2-Hydroxyestrone	ug/24hrs		6.1	---
16-a-Hydroxyestrone	ug/24hrs		0.7	---
2OH/16OH Estrone ratio			8.7	---
4-Hydroxyestrone	ug/24hrs		0.4	---
Estradiol (E2)	ug/24hrs		1.9	0 - 7
Estriol (E3)	ug/24hrs		2.7	1 - 16
Total Estrogens	ug/24hrs		8.0	4 - 22
Testosterone	ug/24hrs	HIGH	121	45 - 85
Dihydrotestosterone (DHT)	ug/24hrs		11	0 - 13
Androstanediol	ug/24hrs		172	48 - 578
Androstanedione	ug/24hrs		9.6	Not established
DHEA	ug/24hrs		453	5 - 1476
Androstenetriol (5-AT)	ug/24hrs		271	42 - 710
Androsterone (AN)	ug/24hrs	HIGH	4953	798 - 4705
11b-OH-Androsterone	ug/24hrs		1090	461 - 1692
Etiocholanolone (ET)	ug/24hrs		1742	689 - 3252
11b-OH-Etiocholanolone	ug/24hrs		741	134 - 1186
Progesterone			NONE DETECTED
Pregnanediol (PD)	ug/24hrs		147	32 - 501
5-Pregnenetriol (5-PT)	ug/24hrs		305	28 - 1062
Pregnenolone	ug/24hrs		1.6	Not established
Cortisone (E)	ug/24hrs		180	92 - 366
THE	ug/24hrs		3865	1365 - 5788
THB	ug/24hrs		86	32 - 238
5a-THB	ug/24hrs		314	135 - 588
THA	ug/24hrs		91	52 - 277
Cortisol (F)	ug/24hrs		93	35 - 168
THF	ug/24hrs		1803	942 - 2800
5a-THF	ug/24hrs	HIGH	3185	796 - 2456

TESTS, RESULT, FLAG, UNITS, REFERENCE INTERVAL

LH	mIU/mL		3.3	1.7 - 8.6
FSH	mIU/mL	LOW	1.3	1.5 - 12.4
Testosterone, Serum	ng/dL		412	348 - 1197
Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy	ng/dL		33.5	30.0 - 100.0
SHBG, Serum	nmol/L		22.7	16.5 - 55.9

Dr. Crisler is having me stop the Clomiphene and go with testosterone injections on account of the high testosterone in my urine compared to the much lower amount in my blood. I'm at a little bit of a loss on what to think as my primary endo classifies me as "in range" and does not feel that TRT is appropriate for me.

At any rate, I thought I would just post up my numbers and see what this community thinks.

Thanks!

[The Matrix]

Hi all --

I'm a 30 year-old guy and this is my first post here. I'm a patient of Dr. Crisler's and one of those ex-finasteride users. I took the drug for five years (started at 23, stopped at 28) without noticeable sides and prior to quitting cold turkey, I took dutasteride for a number of months without noticeable sides on either drug. After cessation, I didn't experience sexual sides right away; it was a gradual process over the period of several months in which it became not only more difficult for me to achieve erection, but also nearly impossible for me to get fully hard and stay hard. Along with erectile dysfunction, I have a loss in libido and in general very rarely feel horny unless I'm with my girl.

My andrologist/endocrinologist ordered blood work on me several times over the course of about two years and initially prescribed Cialis for me, which worked great for a few months and then gradually lost efficacy. Two months ago I was prescribed Clomiphene Citrate (25mg every other day, which I downsized to 12.5mg every other day) by my endo and then approximately a month ago I had my first consult with Dr. Crisler, where a urine analysis and blood analysis were ordered. As you can see, my serum testosterone levels did not increase with the Clomiphene and otherwise I felt no mental or physical effects from the drug.

Looking back, it seems the only time I have experienced any real "relief" from what is commonly referred to as post-finasteride syndrome, is when I recklessly decided to take finasteride for approximately 2 weeks. I did this several months ago without the advice of anyone in the medical field and felt a boost in libido and sex drive. During this period, I noticed an ability to get hard again immediately after having sex/ejaculating -- a skill that had vanished previously. After cessation, I almost immediately had horrible ED and a general feeling of malaise.

Today, I'm pretty consistent in my symptoms. ED, low libido, low energy levels, occasional anxiety. Physically, my penis changes shape often -- sometimes taking an hourglass shape and other times shrinking up with a feeling of hardness/fibrosis.

Here's some blood work results prior to meeting with Dr. Crisler:

4/9/2011
Testosterone, Serum
Result - 422 ng/dL, Flag Reference Range - 249-836
Dihydrotestosterone
Result - 40 ng/dL, Reference Range - 30-85

7/2/2011
Testosterone, Serum
Result - 82 ng/dL, Flag Reference Range - 249-836
Dihydrotestosterone
Result - 60 ng/dL, Reference Range - 30-85

And now the urine analysis and bloods ordered by Dr. Crisler

TEST, UNITS, ABN, RESULTS, REFERENCE RANGE

Estrone (E1)	ug/24hrs		3.5	3 - 12
2-Hydroxyestrone	ug/24hrs		6.1	---
16-a-Hydroxyestrone	ug/24hrs		0.7	---
2OH/16OH Estrone ratio			8.7	---
4-Hydroxyestrone	ug/24hrs		0.4	---
Estradiol (E2)	ug/24hrs		1.9	0 - 7
Estriol (E3)	ug/24hrs		2.7	1 - 16
Total Estrogens	ug/24hrs		8.0	4 - 22
Testosterone	ug/24hrs	HIGH	121	45 - 85
Dihydrotestosterone (DHT)	ug/24hrs		11	0 - 13
Androstanediol	ug/24hrs		172	48 - 578
Androstanedione	ug/24hrs		9.6	Not established
DHEA	ug/24hrs		453	5 - 1476
Androstenetriol (5-AT)	ug/24hrs		271	42 - 710
Androsterone (AN)	ug/24hrs	HIGH	4953	798 - 4705
11b-OH-Androsterone	ug/24hrs		1090	461 - 1692
Etiocholanolone (ET)	ug/24hrs		1742	689 - 3252
11b-OH-Etiocholanolone	ug/24hrs		741	134 - 1186
Progesterone			NONE DETECTED
Pregnanediol (PD)	ug/24hrs		147	32 - 501
5-Pregnenetriol (5-PT)	ug/24hrs		305	28 - 1062
Pregnenolone	ug/24hrs		1.6	Not established
Cortisone (E)	ug/24hrs		180	92 - 366
THE	ug/24hrs		3865	1365 - 5788
THB	ug/24hrs		86	32 - 238
5a-THB	ug/24hrs		314	135 - 588
THA	ug/24hrs		91	52 - 277
Cortisol (F)	ug/24hrs		93	35 - 168
THF	ug/24hrs		1803	942 - 2800
5a-THF	ug/24hrs	HIGH	3185	796 - 2456

TESTS, RESULT, FLAG, UNITS, REFERENCE INTERVAL

LH	mIU/mL		3.3	1.7 - 8.6
FSH	mIU/mL	LOW	1.3	1.5 - 12.4
Testosterone, Serum	ng/dL		412	348 - 1197
Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy	ng/dL		33.5	30.0 - 100.0
SHBG, Serum	nmol/L		22.7	16.5 - 55.9

Dr. Crisler is having me stop the Clomiphene and go with testosterone injections on account of the high testosterone in my urine compared to the much lower amount in my blood. I'm at a little bit of a loss on what to think as my primary endo classifies me as "in range" and does not feel that TRT is appropriate for me.

At any rate, I thought I would just post up my numbers and see what this community thinks.

Thanks!

From dealing with several guys with this problem hormones is just a small part of the over all equation to the solution. One needs to look at the neuriological impacts as well as the alteration in the cytokines and the over all TH1/TH2 imbalance which it may play a factor. I am currently working with neuroscience as one of the best people in this field when it comes to manipulation of neurochemistry of the brain. We are currently looking at recharging the dopamine receptors which are currently our main focus in dealing with these horrible side effects. I have also noted the structural impact the result of this drug has caused due to phyiscally increasing scare tissue in the penis it self which will result in reduced blood flow for erections. In these instances, I tend to look at the alteration in the nitric oxide formulation since the drug may disrupt this process. I am in the process of moving the idea of full neurological, and immune impact of this drug to neuroscience for field studies. Your vitamin D is low which can effect dopamine receptors and other hormone receptors. I am seeing a huge impact on the GI tract in these cases with increased dybiosis and candida present. I do not know if its coincidental but it has been a reoccuring trend.

[fanzdslpwr1]

how do you reverse the candida in the GI tract?

[The Matrix]

how do you reverse the candida in the GI tract?

Very carefully, modulation of immune, neurotransmitters and lifestyles.

[daveydc82]

From dealing with several guys with this problem hormones is just a small part of the over all equation to the solution. One needs to look at the neuriological impacts as well as the alteration in the cytokines and the over all TH1/TH2 imbalance which it may play a factor. I am currently working with neuroscience as one of the best people in this field when it comes to manipulation of neurochemistry of the brain. We are currently looking at recharging the dopamine receptors which are currently our main focus in dealing with these horrible side effects. I have also noted the structural impact the result of this drug has caused due to phyiscally increasing scare tissue in the penis it self which will result in reduced blood flow for erections. In these instances, I tend to look at the alteration in the nitric oxide formulation since the drug may disrupt this process. I am in the process of moving the idea of full neurological, and immune impact of this drug to neuroscience for field studies. Your vitamin D is low which can effect dopamine receptors and other hormone receptors. I am seeing a huge impact on the GI tract in these cases with increased dybiosis and candida present. I do not know if its coincidental but it has been a reoccuring trend.

Thank you for your comments on this. Do you have any specific thoughts on my high urine testosterone against my relatively low serum testosterone? There's also the fact that I did not respond to Clomid with an increase in serum testosterone - do you have any thoughts on that?

Thanks

[The Matrix]

Clomid does.not respond when there is.not.proper.cell signaling due.to possible factors such as low vitamin d,e,a zinc act. Testosterone.may.be hyper excreter. You may be burn through to fast or.you are.not breaking it.down. Hard.to.say. It.could be both. Probably kidneys.or.may be liver is.not turning. Over properly. When dealing with closed. Your trying to.build a mansion but if.it is.built on.weak.foundation it will collapse. When dealing with restart you want.to put your.body in optimum environment for it to occur. Fyi some drs do not.like.to.post. Results or what they have you doing. This.may result in determination as you as a patient .just giving you a heads up.

[fanzdslpwr1]

how do you modulate the immune system?

[The Matrix]

how do you modulate the immune system?

Reduce inflammation..

[fanzdslpwr1]

reduce inflammation by what means?

[The Matrix]

Identify and remove the sources..

[fanzdslpwr1]

what do mean? food allergies?

[daveydc82]

I appreciate the input from both of you, but it feels like this thread is going on a tangent. Unless of course I'm just missing something about this discussion and how it relates to the data that I posted

[The Matrix]

I appreciate the input from both of you, but it feels like this thread is going on a tangent. Unless of course I'm just missing something about this discussion and how it relates to the data that I posted

I.am.working with several.cases right now with post fina right now and making head way.slowly, but steady.with.help of. Their.open minded.drs. If.you do.not.have an.open.minded Dr then dealing with hormones.Will not resolve ones issues.since majority.have optional.levels.to.begin.with. One.needs.to.go.outside realm of.hormone focusing on.neurological.immune system and.lifestyles to.possible resolve these issues.

[fanzdslpwr1]

I apologize. I wasn't trying to give input I was trying to resolve and learn.

[daveydc82]

No worries, man. I couldn't tell if we were getting side-tracked or if finasteride was still the topic of the discussion. I do want to see this conversation continue to develop and uncover more information. I'm currently dealing with some very reputable doctors in the medical community over my symptoms and am very interested in seeing further responses from Matrix.

[The Matrix]

Need fresh labs these too old. Glad you are working with good drs. You Will.need different ones in different areas to.help.resolve this from.different angles. I.do.work.with many different drs. Some.of.them give me cold shoulder lot. I could care less. You.need lot.more.labs done.due to.complexity of.this case. Majority of progression is not.made in.hormone but are great.to.support to.help healing process. Majority of issues i find.in.gi tract, immune and neurological imbalances.

[daveydc82]

Actually, the urine and blood results are from 2/27/2012, so they are fairly recent. The first two are the ones from 2011.

Are you able to put me in touch with any good doctors making progress treating those damaged by finasteride? If hormones are the wrong area of focus, I'd like to redirect my attention to the right areas.

Thanks

[The Matrix]

Actually, the urine and blood results are from 2/27/2012, so they are fairly recent. The first two are the ones from 2011.

Are you able to put me in touch with any good doctors making progress treating those damaged by finasteride? If hormones are the wrong area of focus, I'd like to redirect my attention to the right areas.


Thanks

One does not look at it as damaged with drug, but rather just finding things which are out of balanced. Most of cases I deal with need little if any medical intervention with drugs. Hormones are part of the equation. Every things works in balanced which I have been found to be based in immune, neurological, endocrine, and emotional well being of the person. When one goes out they all go out correcting one helps, but the others need to be supported and monitored. This is a multi-facet problem which requires all areas to be addressed. If the immune system goes out it will cause issues with the neurological system, adrenals, then eventually sex hormones and thyroid. You want to look at the top of the cascade not the bottom. People with fini usually have good levels of T and e2, shbg but still have libido issues. I feel this comes from the impact on the immune system and neurotransmitter imbalance (mainly down regulation of dopamine receptors) which I am working a solution which I may have to bring these receptors back on line. After I detox them which results in weight loss or increased muscle gain in some, then they are ready to work on the immune and neurological imbalances. Detoxing also helps to take stress off the adrenals gland as well as the immune system. People on HC once they go through this phase may not need it since majority of inflammation is removed from the body. You have to clear the metabolic waste before you start to even heal the body. To many professionals are putting more stress on the body by hitting it with more drugs which is only adding more to insult. I start at ground zero working to build the system from ground up clearing all the unwanted waste, open up detoxification pathways in lymphatic, GI, liver this takes the stress off immune system, neurological, and endocrine. Once these pathways are open then you start replenish the nutrients which are deficient and in the proper ratio. Plain and simple with out nutrients enzymatic reaction would not take place. How can you make testosterone when the person lacks the proper enzymatic reaction which comes from what ? Nutrients.. You have to detox in order to be able to assimulate meds and supplements other wise they may not work properly.

[The Matrix]

how do you reverse the candida in the GI tract?

First of all diet alone will not help get rid of it, if you have heavy metals you are wasting your time trying to get rid of candida. Again it depends upon case which can go 1000 different ways according to other variables. I do not give specific recommendation because if not done right one could literally kill them self. I have had people under Dr's supervision who did not listen to the recommendations given by the Dr to go slow. They end up going into psychotic episode wanting to kill them selves because of the bad reaction they had. No other variables are change and symptoms were not present before. When working with Dr's I always warn them what to expect, and document things down in the file. I can tell you personally, I was bed ridden for almost 2 weeks because I did not know what hit me. I was just follow what some one said on line helped them. Unfortunately I am not going create the environment of possible endanger some body life. Sitting on both side of the desk you will appreciate this.

[fanzdslpwr1]

wow reversing candida sounds scary!