25 Year old UK guy, low testosterone / adrenal dysfunction? - AnabolicMinds.com

25 Year old UK guy, low testosterone / adrenal dysfunction?

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    25 Year old UK guy, low testosterone / adrenal dysfunction?


    Hi all

    25 year old bloke here, first time poster from the UK, having seen advice to come here from other forums I have posted in. Hoping someone is able to help out with some advice. I will try and summise my situation.

    Christmas day last year I was drinking heavily and in a good natured play fight with friends which went wrong I ended up dislocating my shoulder. I went to A&E, they put it back in and I was sent home.

    I woke up the next day with what I now know to be panic attacks. They were horrendous and having had no history of mental illness or psychological problems I thought I was losing my mind. I went back to work after the Christmas break, still battling the anxiety. I also began to get severe fatigue, RSI esque pain in my hands, dry gritty vision / sensitivity to light and difficulty reading as a result on monitors / televisions.

    I was unable to cope with work and was signed off by my GP. She also persuaded me to take an SSRI, Citalopram for the anxiety. I was off work for 3 months and unable to do much of anything other than lie in bed in darkened rooms. I was told at the time I had ‘post-viral fatigue’ by my GP. I decided to discontinue the SSRI after 6 weeks as I believed it to be affecting my libido, which was causing problems with my relationship.

    I successfully weaned off it and the anxiety did not return, the rest of my symptoms began to ease and I was soon back in work. The only symptom which remained was my lack of libido, which at the time I attributed to after effects of the SSRI.

    Being an avid field hockey player I was desperate to regain my former high level of fitness and began exercising as I used to, at least an hour or two per day of intense running / heavy weight lifting. I had always managed with this in the past, but on top of it I decided, possibly now in my error, to start a pattern of calorie restricted dieting with intermittent fasting to lose the fat I had put on(I was drinking a lot of black coffee during the 'fast'). It was very successful in that regard and to be honest I felt better than I ever had done, other than the fact I still had no libido. This continued for a couple of months, but then July I asked my GP to check my testosterone levels and they were very low, (4.3 nmol/l )

    She prescribed me Testogel and at the time, not knowing what I do now about primary / secondary hypogonadism, I took it gladly. My libido started to come back but to my horror so too did the panic attack / anxiety symptoms, so I discontinued the gel after 2 weeks and got my GP to refer me to an endocrinologist.

    Soon after stopping the gel I began to crash badly and the same fatigue / visual symptoms returned. I am now having to work reduced hours and am completely unable to exercise or do any of my hobbies.

    Since then I have I have had an MRI of my pituitary, an ultrasound of my testes, a GNRH stimulation test and numerous blood tests. These all came up normal and they were baffled as to why it was low.
    I was also trialled on Clomiphene Citrate for 2 weeks to see if my testosterone levels would rise. They did rise to 18.3nmol/l but subjectively I felt no better at all. They have since fallen to the value in the below blood test.
    It is this which has led me to believe my low testosterone may be secondary to adrenal dysfunction. My AM serum cortisol reading is low as you can see below and I have suggested this theory to my endocrinologist who I have persuaded to arrange an ACTH stimulation test which I will have this coming Monday, although he was fairly dismissive of my theory.

    Would someone be able to explain to me what pathway the adrenal glands would affect the sex hormones on?

    Can anyone suggest where do I go next if the NHS aren’t prepared to treat this or accept it as a condition? Self-treat with hydrocortisone at a physiological dose for a few months, can it be bought without prescription?

    I am currently taking: Vitamin C, Vitamin B5, Vitamin D3, Omega 3s, Zinc, Magnesium, Celtic Salt
    I have bought Nutri Adrenal Extra gladulars but am holding off trying it until after the ACTH stimulation test.

    Blood test results below, please help if you can as I am getting increasingly desperate for answers or someone to take me seriously / not fob me off with CFS / Depression.

    Thanks

    Total Testosterone 10.7nmol/l (8.5 - 29.0)
    Prolactin 147 miu/l (0-350)
    Oestradiol <37pmol/l
    FSH 6.0 iu/L
    LH 3.1 iu/L
    Cortisol 267 nmol/l (140 - 700)
    Sodium 142 nmol/l (133 - 146)
    Potassium 3.9nmol/l (3.5 - 5.3)
    Urea 6.7nmol/l (2.5 - 7.8)
    Creatinine 95 umol/L (0-135)
    Magnesium 0.87 nmol/L (0.7 - 1.0)
    Free T3 5.0pmol/l (2.5 - 6.5)
    Free T4 16.6 pmol/l (8.0 - 21.0)
    TSH 1.44 mu/L (0.4 - 4.5)

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    Hi all

    25 year old bloke here, first time poster from the UK, having seen advice to come here from other forums I have posted in. Hoping someone is able to help out with some advice. I will try and summise my situation.

    Christmas day last year I was drinking heavily and in a good natured play fight with friends which went wrong I ended up dislocating my shoulder. I went to A&E, they put it back in and I was sent home.

    I woke up the next day with what I now know to be panic attacks. They were horrendous and having had no history of mental illness or psychological problems I thought I was losing my mind. I went back to work after the Christmas break, still battling the anxiety. I also began to get severe fatigue, RSI esque pain in my hands, dry gritty vision / sensitivity to light and difficulty reading as a result on monitors / televisions.

    I was unable to cope with work and was signed off by my GP. She also persuaded me to take an SSRI, Citalopram for the anxiety. I was off work for 3 months and unable to do much of anything other than lie in bed in darkened rooms. I was told at the time I had ‘post-viral fatigue’ by my GP. I decided to discontinue the SSRI after 6 weeks as I believed it to be affecting my libido, which was causing problems with my relationship.

    I successfully weaned off it and the anxiety did not return, the rest of my symptoms began to ease and I was soon back in work. The only symptom which remained was my lack of libido, which at the time I attributed to after effects of the SSRI.

    Being an avid field hockey player I was desperate to regain my former high level of fitness and began exercising as I used to, at least an hour or two per day of intense running / heavy weight lifting. I had always managed with this in the past, but on top of it I decided, possibly now in my error, to start a pattern of calorie restricted dieting with intermittent fasting to lose the fat I had put on(I was drinking a lot of black coffee during the 'fast'). It was very successful in that regard and to be honest I felt better than I ever had done, other than the fact I still had no libido. This continued for a couple of months, but then July I asked my GP to check my testosterone levels and they were very low, (4.3 nmol/l )

    She prescribed me Testogel and at the time, not knowing what I do now about primary / secondary hypogonadism, I took it gladly. My libido started to come back but to my horror so too did the panic attack / anxiety symptoms, so I discontinued the gel after 2 weeks and got my GP to refer me to an endocrinologist.

    Soon after stopping the gel I began to crash badly and the same fatigue / visual symptoms returned. I am now having to work reduced hours and am completely unable to exercise or do any of my hobbies.

    Since then I have I have had an MRI of my pituitary, an ultrasound of my testes, a GNRH stimulation test and numerous blood tests. These all came up normal and they were baffled as to why it was low.
    I was also trialled on Clomiphene Citrate for 2 weeks to see if my testosterone levels would rise. They did rise to 18.3nmol/l but subjectively I felt no better at all. They have since fallen to the value in the below blood test.
    It is this which has led me to believe my low testosterone may be secondary to adrenal dysfunction. My AM serum cortisol reading is low as you can see below and I have suggested this theory to my endocrinologist who I have persuaded to arrange an ACTH stimulation test which I will have this coming Monday, although he was fairly dismissive of my theory.

    Would someone be able to explain to me what pathway the adrenal glands would affect the sex hormones on?

    Can anyone suggest where do I go next if the NHS aren’t prepared to treat this or accept it as a condition? Self-treat with hydrocortisone at a physiological dose for a few months, can it be bought without prescription?

    I am currently taking: Vitamin C, Vitamin B5, Vitamin D3, Omega 3s, Zinc, Magnesium, Celtic Salt
    I have bought Nutri Adrenal Extra gladulars but am holding off trying it until after the ACTH stimulation test.

    Blood test results below, please help if you can as I am getting increasingly desperate for answers or someone to take me seriously / not fob me off with CFS / Depression.

    Thanks

    Total Testosterone 10.7nmol/l (8.5 - 29.0)
    Prolactin 147 miu/l (0-350)
    Oestradiol <37pmol/l
    FSH 6.0 iu/L
    LH 3.1 iu/L
    Cortisol 267 nmol/l (140 - 700)
    Sodium 142 nmol/l (133 - 146)
    Potassium 3.9nmol/l (3.5 - 5.3)
    Urea 6.7nmol/l (2.5 - 7.8)
    Creatinine 95 umol/L (0-135)
    Magnesium 0.87 nmol/L (0.7 - 1.0)
    Free T3 5.0pmol/l (2.5 - 6.5)
    Free T4 16.6 pmol/l (8.0 - 21.0)
    TSH 1.44 mu/L (0.4 - 4.5)
    I have worked with countless people from UK and there are usually several common scenerios which tend to occur.
    First you really need to look at the person's history in detail along with factors leading up to the their current symptoms.
    You need to find out why you are haVing these symptoms and where the imbalances are occuring in different areas. Probably you have low cortisol reserve which is presenting most of your issues. Again proper evaluation is needed in order to confirm this. BTW CFS and Fibro are BS terms for Dr's not digging deep enough into what is really going on at the cellular and other systems. I deal with alot of these cases with Dr's and some of the causes found are unique and rather disturbing to say the least. You got a good start with testing but this is just the surface. One needs to get in there start to dig.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Kinda suspecting the same issue with me although my problem is higher prolactin. Awaiting my bloods. But I abused stimulants for 2-3 years so this could be why my adrenals arent functioning optimally (to produce enough DHEA = which could help with libido).Will follow this log. Good luck we'll get through this.
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    thanks for the responses guys.

    blackcoffee - are you taking any adrenal support at the minute?

    Matrix - Are you able to suggest what other tests I need to undertake? I realise there may be countless ones. I am awaiting some more blood results; DHEA, Vit D, Androstenedione.

    I am wondering whether to press to get pregnenolone and progesterone as well?

    Would a DHEA / Prenenolone supplement in conjunction with Adrenal Glandulars and Liquorice be sufficient to treat low adrenal reserve?

    UK doctors do not recognise adrenal fatigue so I fear I may not be able to get hold of hydrocortisone to support my adrenals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    thanks for the responses guys.

    blackcoffee - are you taking any adrenal support at the minute??

    UK doctors do not recognise adrenal fatigue so I fear I may not be able to get hold of hydrocortisone to support my adrenals.

    nope but planning a liver detox and seeing a practioner in harley st who will look into my adrenal functions etc pm me for contact
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    I'm wondering whether to try some of the Revamp that is supposedly like Reset AD, or whether I'm too far along for that solution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    I'm wondering whether to try some of the Revamp that is supposedly like Reset AD, or whether I'm too far along for that solution.
    Do not be taking supplements unless you know what is truly wrong, cortisol is a tricky character smacking you around and never knowing it.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    I guess I am just frutrated as I do not even know what to try / test next.

    On another point, someone from another forum has recently told me that I should not be supplementing Zinc at 50mg a day if I have low adrenal reserve, as Zinc decreases cortisol..?
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    I guess I am just frutrated as I do not even know what to try / test next.

    On another point, someone from another forum has recently told me that I should not be supplementing Zinc at 50mg a day if I have low adrenal reserve, as Zinc decreases cortisol..?
    This is something you should not do on your own and As I have found out with many people in the past, people with good intentions usually end up making peoples pre existing conditions. Since been working with medical professionals for 5 years, one needs to look at all the parameters before engaging in any kind of supplementation. I learned the hard way and what lead me to over several years of research to finally fill in the missing gaps of from medical professionals. With people on line providing information is great, just have to take what you hear with a grain of salt. I ended up spending 10,000's of dollars on supplements, medical blunders from Drs not having a clue on how to handle my case and un necessary meds if they would have just listened to me in the first place. Not giving me the depression bull crap, and all the other excuses. Well I have l lived and learn that is why I am providing information to Dr's across the to help them with challenging cases.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    I suspect that if your cortisol and DHEA-s are low, you probably have some form of adrenal fatigue/exhaustion.
    I've been on a mission to find out whats been going on with myself lately. There is some overlap between our 2 stories. Let me explain:
    Libido/energy/strength/motivation all went from high to almost zero within 6 months. Everyday got a little bit worse. Finally I got fed up and had blood tests and starting researching. Labs looked pretty good, except for low DHEA-s. Also, my symptoms pointed to the adrenal glands. Also started having pain and discomfort from adrenal gland area (they rest atop the kidneys). Had no symptoms of kidney issues, so adrenal glands were suspect.
    Put myself on cortisone replacement (dexamethasone injectable is all I could get my hands on) for 3 weeks. Felt vast improvements in energy and motivation immediately due to the dexamethasone. Libido remained non-existent during DM treatment. After the 3 weeks were up, I started tapering off the DM carefully , as this process can be very uncomfortable and even dangerous. During the taper off, libido started returning. It took about 3 weeks to taper off and adrenal glands to resume function after having been suppressed by the DM. Now libido is pretty much back to a respectable level, and no more pain from adrenal gland area. All other symptoms improved to some degree, so I know I'm on the right track. I'm still contemplating doing this DM treatment again, but for longer. I don't think 3 weeks was quite long enough to fully let the adrenals heal up.

    I hope this helps the poster...

    Anyone have any thoughts on this? or been through the same thing?

    Edit: I also have a history of stimulant abuse and several reckless anabolic steroid cycles. 31yrs old
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    Thank you very much nkautz, it helpful! that story sounds promising or gives me hope at the very least.

    Matrix; I do not want to self treat if I can help it, but as you say the condition is poorly understood by UK doctors. I do not even know where I would be able to get hydrocortisone anyway with it being prescription only, my only chance may be to convince my endo on a therapeutic trial.

    I had the ACTH stimulation test today and strangely, after the initial soreness of the shot into my leg, I began to feel pretty good; within 10 minutes I felt much more 'with it' and although I was sitting in the chair I felt like I had much more energy.

    This may have just been a placebo but I don't think it was. It has since worn off and I am back to usual, but it was interesting.

    I will be receiving the results of the test on Friday when I will see not only my endocrinologist but also the head of the department for a second opinion.

    Are there other worthwhile things to get them to test or suggestions to put to them? 24 hr urinary cortisol? Or perhaps other blood tests that I have yet to have such as pregnelone, B12, Ferritin ?

    I have had to wait 6 weeks for this appointment so want to make sure I get it right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    Thank you very much nkautz, it helpful! that story sounds promising or gives me hope at the very least.

    Matrix; I do not want to self treat if I can help it, but as you say the condition is poorly understood by UK doctors. I do not even know where I would be able to get hydrocortisone anyway with it being prescription only, my only chance may be to convince my endo on a therapeutic trial.

    I had the ACTH stimulation test today and strangely, after the initial soreness of the shot into my leg, I began to feel pretty good; within 10 minutes I felt much more 'with it' and although I was sitting in the chair I felt like I had much more energy.

    This may have just been a placebo but I don't think it was. It has since worn off and I am back to usual, but it was interesting.

    I will be receiving the results of the test on Friday when I will see not only my endocrinologist but also the head of the department for a second opinion.

    Are there other worthwhile things to get them to test or suggestions to put to them? 24 hr urinary cortisol? Or perhaps other blood tests that I have yet to have such as pregnelone, B12, Ferritin ?

    I have had to wait 6 weeks for this appointment so want to make sure I get it right.
    Do a search and you will find my link about lab testing getting to the root cause.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    The results from the ACTH test should indicate primary or secondary adrenal insufficiency. That will be valuable information.

    wikipedia.org/wiki/ACTH_stimulation_test
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    Quote Originally Posted by nkautz1 View Post
    The results from the ACTH test should indicate primary or secondary adrenal insufficiency. That will be valuable information.

    wikipedia.org/wiki/ACTH_stimulation_test
    I had a Dr's patient with 42 serum cortisol am and 109 ACTH go figure, she was also super toxic in copper serum. Go figure. This is why you need to look deeper. No endo would have ever looked for heavy metals in a person.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    yeah hopefully the test will show something up but then again I have read it is not too sensitive unless it is full blown addisons or cushings..

    Matrix thanks just found that thread, really useful. There are a number of things there I have yet to get tested.


    Heavy metals toxicity is an interesting one as in fairness I have just moved into a new flat in the October before my symptoms began at Christmas so maybe that is worth exploring. Perhaps poor pipe work etc..

    Ok as it stands on Friday I'm going to ask them to do more tests for

    a) heavy metals
    b) Reverse T3 and Thyroid Antibodies to rule out a thyroid problem
    c) B12, Ferritin, Cortisol binding globulin, Pregnelone,
    d) possibly a food allergy panel (but not sure whether the NHS will do this) - The Nutraeval from Genova looks good but out of my price range at the minute with having to work part time.

    Then I may ask for a therapuetic trial of hydrocortisone or predislone.

    It is annoying that one of my bloods, DHEAS, is still not back from the lab and will be another 2 weeks, as it is obviously pretty closely tied in to adrenal function.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    yeah hopefully the test will show something up but then again I have read it is not too sensitive unless it is full blown addisons or cushings..

    Matrix thanks just found that thread, really useful. There are a number of things there I have yet to get tested.


    Heavy metals toxicity is an interesting one as in fairness I have just moved into a new flat in the October before my symptoms began at Christmas so maybe that is worth exploring. Perhaps poor pipe work etc..

    Ok as it stands on Friday I'm going to ask them to do more tests for

    a) heavy metals
    b) Reverse T3 and Thyroid Antibodies to rule out a thyroid problem
    c) B12, Ferritin, Cortisol binding globulin, Pregnelone,
    d) possibly a food allergy panel (but not sure whether the NHS will do this) - The Nutraeval from Genova looks good but out of my price range at the minute with having to work part time.

    Then I may ask for a therapuetic trial of hydrocortisone or predislone.

    It is annoying that one of my bloods, DHEAS, is still not back from the lab and will be another 2 weeks, as it is obviously pretty closely tied in to adrenal function.
    I have not suggest HC to dr's in over a year and a half to Dr's. By looking for the underlying cause and supporting other system over time the body may rebalance it self if given the proper nutritional, hormonal, immune, thyroid, and lifestyle support.

    BTW I have a couple guys from UK having Evals done for free through their Dr. Bopa will also help cover a certain percentage of the test.

    Check out this thread...
    For people in UK
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    thats interesting about the nutra eval Matrix, can I ask how much you charge to work with UK guys?

    as an update, I received the results from my ACTH stimulation test; 30 minutes following the injection my cortisol had risen to 740 nmol/l on a scale of 0-700 so my endocrinologist ruled out full blown Addison’s disease or adrenal insufficiency, in fact she said my response was very good.

    I did a Zinc tally test and am not deficient.

    I did an Adrenal Stress Index (saliva) on Monday and will receive the results of that within 10 days from Genova Diagnostics.

    I received 3 further blood results back which I had been waiting on:

    25 OH Vitamin D3 83.7mol/l (<75 = adequate)

    Androsterone 2.4nmol/l (1.0 – 8.50nmol/l)

    DHEAS 9.4umol/l (0.00 – 12.00 umol/l)


    The DHEAS surprised me as I has thought that it would be low if I was suffering from adrenal fatigue / low testosterone? Is saliva or serum a better measure of DHEAS?

    My endocrinologist wanted to discharge me as in her mind my testosterone is ‘within range’, even though I made the argument it was very low for my age group. She stated that the andropause had not been proven and the idea that testosterone declines with age is just a theory :roll: She also thought that my AM cortisol draw (listed above) was not low. I suppose I may be better off away from someone with that kind of knowledge / opinion.

    I managed to convince her to run one final blood test and I am waiting on the results of:

    Vitamin B12
    Ferritin
    Lead
    Mercury
    Thyroid Antibodies
    Aldosterone
    Progesterone

    Now that I have had the adrenals tests without any specific supplmentation, I have commenced on

    Nutri Adrenal Extra
    Each tablet typically provides:
    Vitamin C (as Ascorbic Acid)
    Vitamin B1 (Thiamin HCl)
    Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin)
    Vitamin B3 (Niacinamide)
    Vitamin B5 (d-calcium Pantothenate)
    Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine HCl)
    Magnesium (Citrate)
    Zinc (Ascorbate)
    Chromium Picotinate
    Bioflavonoids
    Choline Bitartrate
    Adrenal tissue concentrate
    Pituitary tissue concentrate


    and

    Southland Performance Revamp

    Pantothenic Acid
    Rhodiola Rosea extract (3% rosavins), Schizandra, Licorice
    Bovine Adrenal Extract, Pregnenolone


    Can anyone suggest anything based on the new bloods or any of the other new information?? Has anyone had good success with glandulars or the Revamp complex? (Which I believe used to be a product called Reset AD)
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    Glandulars you have to be careful with because they can trigger auto immune responses in certain individual.
    Id still be asking my quesiton why are adrenals low ?(bank on hidden inflammation, and immune imbalances!!)
    Again you need to do DHEA-s not DHEA. although I use DHEA/DHEAs ratio to indentify issues with the liver conversion problems.
    Vitamin D is low I think it top out at 150 upper end of the range
    Find me one good open minded Dr over UK willing to work with me and they will have more people then they know what to do with !!

    If I dr persented me with this information, I would want him to conduct further testing before I even would considering start working on it. You are still looking at only 25-30% of the total equation. When are medical professionals going to wake up to this fact ? UK is in an epidemic of health issues, but no one wants to do anything about it. The person who does will be very famous...Bring functional medicine over to Uk you shake the health care system up. Hit me pm



    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    thats interesting about the nutra eval Matrix, can I ask how much you charge to work with UK guys?

    as an update, I received the results from my ACTH stimulation test; 30 minutes following the injection my cortisol had risen to 740 nmol/l on a scale of 0-700 so my endocrinologist ruled out full blown Addison’s disease or adrenal insufficiency, in fact she said my response was very good.

    I did a Zinc tally test and am not deficient.

    I did an Adrenal Stress Index (saliva) on Monday and will receive the results of that within 10 days from Genova Diagnostics.

    I received 3 further blood results back which I had been waiting on:

    25 OH Vitamin D3 83.7mol/l (<75 = adequate)

    Androsterone 2.4nmol/l (1.0 – 8.50nmol/l)

    DHEAS 9.4umol/l (0.00 – 12.00 umol/l)


    The DHEAS surprised me as I has thought that it would be low if I was suffering from adrenal fatigue / low testosterone? Is saliva or serum a better measure of DHEAS?

    My endocrinologist wanted to discharge me as in her mind my testosterone is ‘within range’, even though I made the argument it was very low for my age group. She stated that the andropause had not been proven and the idea that testosterone declines with age is just a theory :roll: She also thought that my AM cortisol draw (listed above) was not low. I suppose I may be better off away from someone with that kind of knowledge / opinion.

    I managed to convince her to run one final blood test and I am waiting on the results of:

    Vitamin B12
    Ferritin
    Lead
    Mercury
    Thyroid Antibodies
    Aldosterone
    Progesterone

    Now that I have had the adrenals tests without any specific supplmentation, I have commenced on

    Nutri Adrenal Extra
    Each tablet typically provides:
    Vitamin C (as Ascorbic Acid)
    Vitamin B1 (Thiamin HCl)
    Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin)
    Vitamin B3 (Niacinamide)
    Vitamin B5 (d-calcium Pantothenate)
    Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine HCl)
    Magnesium (Citrate)
    Zinc (Ascorbate)
    Chromium Picotinate
    Bioflavonoids
    Choline Bitartrate
    Adrenal tissue concentrate
    Pituitary tissue concentrate


    and

    Southland Performance Revamp

    Pantothenic Acid
    Rhodiola Rosea extract (3% rosavins), Schizandra, Licorice
    Bovine Adrenal Extract, Pregnenolone


    Can anyone suggest anything based on the new bloods or any of the other new information?? Has anyone had good success with glandulars or the Revamp complex? (Which I believe used to be a product called Reset AD)
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    have pm'd you matrix - thank you.

    I found this study recently which details overtraining and adrenal fatigue, not sure if anyone else will find it useful and I can't post links, but google

    Matt Lovell Adrenal Fatigue & Overtraining an 'exhaustive' review

    He is the head nutritonist of England Rugby
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    Here is a documented case I worked on. we will be working together in about 2 years when she becomes a MD in europe able to practice any where..

    "Hi! I'm sister of Sargovar, who is a member of this board. I've been into fitness for many years and I finally decided to compete last fall.

    Soon into the competition diet I was diagnosed slightly hypothyroid after suffering from extreme fatigue for a long time. I was put on T4 and I thought that solved the problem. I continued dieting down and went on stimulants, such as ECA stack.

    I was slipping gradually into a state of overtraining. I was really irritated and fatigued all the time and had trouble sleeping. I thought it was "normal" being a first-timer competing.

    Well, besides that, I had too much body fat to lose and I was put on rather low calories at the end of the diet. Well, I got on stage but greater problems started after it was all over.

    I was dizzy and nauseous all the time and my body temperature was constantly elevated. Hands and feet went cold suddenly every now and then and I began sweating profoundly at night. I was getting seriously depressed. I was anxious all the time. They increased my T4 dose, which was a huge mistake! I did not sleep at all after that and was so goddamn exhausted.

    Well, one doc diagnosed me overtrained and told me to go off T4. He wanted to put me on antidepressants and sedatives. I was told I had developed a major depressive disorder and should be fine in a couple of weeks after getting off T4.

    Well, I was on antidepressants and sleeping pills and in a total havoc both mentally and physically. My cortisols were seriously elevated for several months. I had to take a break from medical school and my job as a gym instructor.

    I was extremely weak and suffered from serious insomnia. I became suicidal and started devouring food. My memory and cognitive skills were gone, I had lost hope. I didn't believe anyone could help me. I was really close to killing myself.

    However, I was guided by "hardasnails", a specialist member of this board. With his supplement program and counselling I'm finally starting to get my life back and my systems back to balance. I have to tell that I was nearly dead, but improved rather dramatically with hardasnails' advice. I had been in a state of nearly been taken to mental hospital for life.

    Now I sleep better, my mood is much brighter, I'm back to work and school part-time. Hardasnails' is a true specialist and helped to get my life back.

    -Sofia-

    Read more from the MESO-Rx Steroid Forum at: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-...#ixzz1gdROSMJa
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    a lot of those symptoms sound very familiar.. thanks for posting that matrix. If I am able to financially then I am going to look to work with you. I will wait for the result of the Adrenal Stress Index so we know more.

    It is odd that my vitamin d levels are only 83 as I would have though they would be closer to 100 ish as I have supplemented wit 5000 iu of vit D3 for the past two years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    a lot of those symptoms sound very familiar.. thanks for posting that matrix. If I am able to financially then I am going to look to work with you. I will wait for the result of the Adrenal Stress Index so we know more.

    It is odd that my vitamin d levels are only 83 as I would have though they would be closer to 100 ish as I have supplemented wit 5000 iu of vit D3 for the past two years.
    You most likely have a bile acid issue allowing you not absorbi fat along with fat soluable nutrients. This is starting to be a more common occurance in people due to problems with malabsorption and GI related disorders (food intolerance, dybiosis,)
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    that sounds like an interesting theory, although perhaps odd that I have never had these symptoms before then..

    My Adrenal Stress Index results are just back in today, can anyone comment on them?

    Sample1: 17.9 nmol/l (12-22)
    Sample2: 5.3 nmol/l (5-9)
    Sample3: 3.4nmol/l (3-7)
    Sample4: 0.5nmol/l (1-3)

    DHEA Mean: 0.87 nmol/l (0.40 - 1.47)
    DHEA : Cortisol Ratio: 3.21 (2-6)

    I am wondering which came first so to speak. Has low testosterone stressed out my adrenal glands or has adrenal fatigue caused the low T? Chicken or egg so to speak..
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    that sounds like an interesting theory, although perhaps odd that I have never had these symptoms before then..

    My Adrenal Stress Index results are just back in today, can anyone comment on them?

    Sample1: 17.9 nmol/l (12-22)
    Sample2: 5.3 nmol/l (5-9)
    Sample3: 3.4nmol/l (3-7)
    Sample4: 0.5nmol/l (1-3)

    DHEA Mean: 0.87 nmol/l (0.40 - 1.47)
    DHEA : Cortisol Ratio: 3.21 (2-6)

    I am wondering which came first so to speak. Has low testosterone stressed out my adrenal glands or has adrenal fatigue caused the low T? Chicken or egg so to speak..
    They are low and it appears they decrease as day goes on which tells me that you do not have enough adrenal reserve, but you need to find out why and what is affecting the immune system over the course of the day. There are several different ways of handling this, Needs to be deeper evaluation done.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    I am looking into getting the Nutra Eval kit from Genova, however I may not be able to afford the full kit if I can't get it for free. I may be able to afford the FACT kit which tests allergies and intoleranes.

    Interestingly, on another forum a PT suggested I dropped all grain products and all fruit from my diet to balance my blood sugar and allow the adrenals some breathing room. I was having a large bowl of muesli, whey and berries for breakfast and now am having scrambled eggs and bacon. I have had much more constant energy in work feel better in general.

    It is making me wonder whether I may have a gluten intolerance, as i have read that can impact on the digestion of nutrients and contibute towards lower hormone levels and energy in general, as well as giving the body a constant source of inflammation to deal withl.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    I am looking into getting the Nutra Eval kit from Genova, however I may not be able to afford the full kit if I can't get it for free. I may be able to afford the FACT kit which tests allergies and intoleranes.

    Interestingly, on another forum a PT suggested I dropped all grain products and all fruit from my diet to balance my blood sugar and allow the adrenals some breathing room. I was having a large bowl of muesli, whey and berries for breakfast and now am having scrambled eggs and bacon. I have had much more constant energy in work feel better in general.

    It is making me wonder whether I may have a gluten intolerance, as i have read that can impact on the digestion of nutrients and contibute towards lower hormone levels and energy in general, as well as giving the body a constant source of inflammation to deal withl.
    Majority of issues people are dealing with can be resolved through modifcation of life styles not needing some elaborate HRT protocol like people have been brained washed into thinking. Again each scenerio is different and unique.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    I am looking into getting the Nutra Eval kit from Genova, however I may not be able to afford the full kit if I can't get it for free. I may be able to afford the FACT kit which tests allergies and intoleranes.

    Interestingly, on another forum a PT suggested I dropped all grain products and all fruit from my diet to balance my blood sugar and allow the adrenals some breathing room. I was having a large bowl of muesli, whey and berries for breakfast and now am having scrambled eggs and bacon. I have had much more constant energy in work feel better in general.

    It is making me wonder whether I may have a gluten intolerance, as i have read that can impact on the digestion of nutrients and contibute towards lower hormone levels and energy in general, as well as giving the body a constant source of inflammation to deal withl.

    same Ive got gluten free too, or 90% gluten free
  28. Elite Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCoffee View Post
    same Ive got gluten free too, or 90% gluten free
    Many people finding out rebalancing the GI tract, neurological, immune and other endocrine systems results in them not needing HRT..
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Matrix what is your take on T3 only therapy to correct high RT3? I am going to have RT3 tested but my hypothyroid symptoms with a normal Thyroid panel in conjunction with the issues starting when overtraining and intermittent fasting would seem to fit the diagnosis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    Matrix what is your take on T3 only therapy to correct high RT3? I am going to have RT3 tested but my hypothyroid symptoms with a normal Thyroid panel in conjunction with the issues starting when overtraining and intermittent fasting would seem to fit the diagnosis.
    I no longer recommed t3 only unless last resort. Maxium 5-10 mcgs 2-3 times a day. I have too many people who had adverse reactions from this since it is a just a response to any Traumatic stress to the person. Look for the source of the stress do not treat the rt3 as the cause.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Am I right in thinking though if the cause was chronic overtraining / dieting and the subsequent starvation response, and I stopped all that 4 months ago, that it should have cleared on its own by now if it was going to?
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    Am I right in thinking though if the cause was chronic overtraining / dieting and the subsequent starvation response, and I stopped all that 4 months ago, that it should have cleared on its own by now if it was going to?
    This lead your body into a vulnerable state for alot of things to trigger HPTA dysfunction..Same thing happen to me.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    have had some more blood results back and my progesterone is on the low side, supporting the theory of preg-steal. Can't get preg itself tested over here unfortunately.

    Progesterone: 2nmol/l (1.2 - 5.3)
    Ab to Thyroid peroxidase 4 IU/ML (0-80)
    Ab to Thyroglobulin 9 IU/ML (0-80)
    Vitamin B12 1234 ng/L (211-911)

    Also, if my DHEA is high but my androstendione is low, despite adequate amounts of LH, why could this be? Can DHEA convert back to cortisol somehow instead?
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    have had some more blood results back and my progesterone is on the low side, supporting the theory of preg-steal. Can't get preg itself tested over here unfortunately.

    Progesterone: 2nmol/l (1.2 - 5.3)
    Ab to Thyroid peroxidase 4 IU/ML (0-80)
    Ab to Thyroglobulin 9 IU/ML (0-80)
    Vitamin B12 1234 ng/L (211-911)

    Also, if my DHEA is high but my androstendione is low, despite adequate amounts of LH, why could this be? Can DHEA convert back to cortisol somehow instead?
    Rebalance the thyroid, Indirectly by healing the GI and liver ---> immune sytem ----> adrneals -----> hormones and thyroid..
    DHEA is high due to your body in a resistant phase dealing with some kind of stressor on the immune system. Over time it will drop unless the underlying cause NOT HORMONES are dealt with properly. Something is preventing it to convert enzymatically into the proper pathways.
    DHEA can also be high in anxiety related conditions, insulin resistance, immune imbalances which all is coming from an underlying stress to the body from some where.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Had some new blood labs back and the Pregnenolone I have been taking seems to be slowly increasing Testosterone and morning cortisol

    Free Testosterone .274 nmol/l (0.02 - 0.67NMOL/L)
    Albumin 53g/L (35 - 50g/l)
    SHBG 30nmol/l (13 - 71)
    Total Testosterone 14.3 nmol/l (8.50 - 29.0)
    Prolactin 238 miu/L (0-350)
    FT4 19.4 pmol/l (8 - 21pmol/l)
    FT3 4.8pmol/l (2.50 - 6.50pmol/l)
    RT3 0.46 pmol/ml (0.14 - 0.54)
    TSH 1.74 mu/L (0.4 - 4.5)
    E2 69pmol/l
    AM cortisol 533nmol/l
    CRP <1mg/l (0-10)
    Fasting glucose 4.1nmol/l (3-6)
    Ferritin 203 ug/L (30 - 330)
    B12 1234 ng/L (211 - 911)
    T Peroxidase 4 IU/ML (0-80)
    Ab Thyroiglobulin 9 IU/ML (0-80)



    which as a Rt3 ratio to my FT3 is 10 when ideally it should be 20 or more right?

    Have added in 400mcg of Selenium per day and will see if this in conjunction with the Pregnenolone lowers it and continues to bring my average temperature up over the next 2-3 weeks. (Current average temp 36.3C)

    If not then I will be starting a T3 + Preg protocol.

    B12 and Ferritin seem OK.

    Anyone got any comments on those bloods or the course of action?

    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    Had some new blood labs back and the Pregnenolone I have been taking seems to be slowly increasing Testosterone and morning cortisol

    Free Testosterone .274 nmol/l (0.02 - 0.67NMOL/L)
    Albumin 53g/L (35 - 50g/l)
    SHBG 30nmol/l (13 - 71)
    Total Testosterone 14.3 nmol/l (8.50 - 29.0)
    Prolactin 238 miu/L (0-350)
    FT4 19.4 pmol/l (8 - 21pmol/l)
    FT3 4.8pmol/l (2.50 - 6.50pmol/l)
    RT3 0.46 pmol/ml (0.14 - 0.54)
    TSH 1.74 mu/L (0.4 - 4.5)
    E2 69pmol/l
    AM cortisol 533nmol/l
    CRP <1mg/l (0-10)
    Fasting glucose 4.1nmol/l (3-6)
    Ferritin 203 ug/L (30 - 330)
    B12 1234 ng/L (211 - 911)
    T Peroxidase 4 IU/ML (0-80)
    Ab Thyroiglobulin 9 IU/ML (0-80)



    which as a Rt3 ratio to my FT3 is 10 when ideally it should be 20 or more right?

    Have added in 400mcg of Selenium per day and will see if this in conjunction with the Pregnenolone lowers it and continues to bring my average temperature up over the next 2-3 weeks. (Current average temp 36.3C)

    If not then I will be starting a T3 + Preg protocol.

    B12 and Ferritin seem OK.

    Anyone got any comments on those bloods or the course of action?

    Thanks
    Cortisol serum is not an accurate reading for what preg is really down. Too many variables can effect it. You fart too hard 5 minutes before the test it can be altered. Now doing a 4 point saliva test and seeing changes then would be a better representation of what is going on with out other variables interfering.
    Rt/ft3 ratio is like any other test its a bunch of numbers which means nothing if symptoms are not present.
    Do not get fixated by the number game. I have had people with rt3/t3 ratios <10 who had no symptoms of fatigue what so ever and felt fine.

    One can increase testosterone 50% by working on proper sleep hygiene
    Using t3 only would be foolish till you need to find out why you have a conversion problem in the first place.
    High albumin you body is trying to unload something (toxins or some kind of heavy metals most likely)
    I have dealt with enough of these cases in past to know t3 only would be a foolish move resulting in potential imbalances in other systems

    Despite what chillin said there are always exception to the rules and as noted numerous times before messing with hormones and thyroid is just a bandaid effect to potentially deeper issue. As many of the guys from there are seeing, I have been right all along despite what people may think in majority of cases. I would not be working with other medical professionals if they thought I was a crack pot
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Agreed with Matrix.
    Psalm 34:10 - "The lions may grow weak and hungry, but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing."
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    I do agree with the theory of trying to get to the bottom of it but at the minute I can't afford the Nutra Eval - I am saving though.

    As ever your info is useful- the Albumin, could that be high if I had too high levels of Zinc?

    I had been taking 65mg Zinc pincolinate per day since being diagnosed with Low T back in July, but discontinued about a month ago when someone suggested that it can suppress cortisol levels and may be stopping my adrenals from recovering.

    I started the pregnenolone around the same time and have noticed less fatigue although the rest of the symptoms ie. eyesight and libido have not resolved.

    Given I was taking in no copper I am wondering whether I could have given myself too high Zinc and too low copper which could also affect the thyroid?
  39. Elite Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    I am looking into getting the Nutra Eval kit from Genova, however I may not be able to afford the full kit if I can't get it for free. I may be able to afford the FACT kit which tests allergies and intoleranes.

    Interestingly, on another forum a PT suggested I dropped all grain products and all fruit from my diet to balance my blood sugar and allow the adrenals some breathing room. I was having a large bowl of muesli, whey and berries for breakfast and now am having scrambled eggs and bacon. I have had much more constant energy in work feel better in general.

    It is making me wonder whether I may have a gluten intolerance, as i have read that can impact on the digestion of nutrients and contibute towards lower hormone levels and energy in general, as well as giving the body a constant source of inflammation to deal withl.
    Amazing, You do not need to be preaching to the choir, I have been saying it all along on ATM for 5 YEARS, Fix the gut, liver and immune system fixes the adrenals as well as the whole hormone cascade in some cases even the thyroid. They are stuck in their mind set. People on HC are just causing more issues they will learn the hard way as I did following the bandwagon. I'm off HC. Was on thyroid for 6 years 3 grains max now I am off !! HMMMMM What that tell you. Makes you wonder how many other people really need thyroid meds in the first place. .Eventually people will see the light as many are finding out I have been right all along. For as many guys start HRT, some are starting to come off because they are learning there is much more to it then meets the eye to why they need in the first place. Its a good stop gap I agree, but in many young guys <30-35 its a bandaid affect

    STRESS---> inflamation-----> immune system -----> adrenals and neuorotransmitters----> thyroid and sex hormone. There are also combination of this, look at
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    I agree with youx and I have no desirto start on TRT, but the nutra Eval is out of my price range for now so I am trying to. work with the tests I have had so far.

    Your theory on heavy metals could make sense with my high zinc intake until recently I will get zinc and coper tested -have already had lead, mercury done.

    Given that the eyes are affected by zinc I wonder if. that could explain the eye dryness and black floaters I have.

    Thanks for the advice as ever and yes in an ideal world I would have the nutra Eval done tomorrow!
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