Don't understand clomid , hcg.

jrvswim

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Long story short low testosterone, no previous steroid use, 21 years, good shape.

When you take clomid or hcg for secondary test. problems, what happens when you get off clomid/hcg. Do clomid/hcg start up your system, and then hopefully once you have taken them for a while, your body continues to run a new higher t level on lets say 'auto-pilot'. Or as soon as you get off these medicines does you body go right back to where you were?

Basically can clomid, hcg be cures in some cases or all they temporary relief?
Again, I am not coming off any steroid use.

Thanks
 
colkurtz_spf

colkurtz_spf

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The short answer is Clomid stimulates LH production and HCG replaces it. Clomid would be used for a restart. Hopefully after 6 to 8 weeks you would produce enough LH production on your own to maintain healthy testosterone levels without it. It's toxic and therefore not a good option for long term use. If a restart doesn't happen then HCG would be a long term option. It won't help you restart because it shuts down your own LH production. LH signals the testes to produce testosterone and other hormones.

Long story short low testosterone, no previous steroid use, 21 years, good shape.

When you take clomid or hcg for secondary test. problems, what happens when you get off clomid/hcg. Do clomid/hcg start up your system, and then hopefully once you have taken them for a while, your body continues to run a new higher t level on lets say 'auto-pilot'. Or as soon as you get off these medicines does you body go right back to where you were?

Basically can clomid, hcg be cures in some cases or all they temporary relief?
Again, I am not coming off any steroid use.

Thanks
 

jrvswim

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Thanks for the quick reply, I have an appointment with a UVA endo Monday, and I want to know as much as possible. Can a 21 year old without steroid use need a restart? My uro is confussed, I am 6'2'', reasonably muscular, have chest hair, decently full beard etc. So they don't think my T was low during puberty. So from what your saying restarts can be needed reguardless of steroid/lack of steroid use? Sorry I have alot to learn.
 
colkurtz_spf

colkurtz_spf

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There can be several reasons for your condition. At your age, a restart may be possible. Good luck!

Thanks for the quick reply, I have an appointment with a UVA endo Monday, and I want to know as much as possible. Can a 21 year old without steroid use need a restart? My uro is confussed, I am 6'2'', reasonably muscular, have chest hair, decently full beard etc. So they don't think my T was low during puberty. So from what your saying restarts can be needed reguardless of steroid/lack of steroid use? Sorry I have alot to learn.
 

Philec48

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You need to access thyroid, adrenals, nutrition, and lifestyle (sufficient sleep, not over training, no excess stress, etc...) to help determine cause of low T. Get LH and FSH tested BEFORE going on TRT to see if cause of low T is pituitary related.
 

jrvswim

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I got LH and FSH tested with test. before. They both sucked, which i imagined confirmed the secondary test. problems.
 

spinn

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Thanks for the quick reply, I have an appointment with a UVA endo Monday, and I want to know as much as possible. Can a 21 year old without steroid use need a restart? My uro is confussed, I am 6'2'', reasonably muscular, have chest hair, decently full beard etc. So they don't think my T was low during puberty. So from what your saying restarts can be needed reguardless of steroid/lack of steroid use? Sorry I have alot to learn.
Do not see an endo, they are clueless idiots. Try to find a doctor who believes in natural remedies. Testosterone does not cause hair growth.

Sorry about confusing you I am just trying to save you a few decades of unnecessary prescription drug use, endos really only treat diabetes.
 

Philec48

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I tend to agree with spinn, my ex-endo was focused (didn't say good) on diabetes and cholesterol. Wanted to give me strong drugs for each. One drug for diabetes that later was suspect in causing heart problems, and another drug for cholesterol that causes muscle inflammation and liver problems. My diabetes control is in the excellent range with diet and exercise only, and my cholesterol is perfect. It's sad that many docs are just flunkies for the drug companies.

Low LH and FSH with low T is something that begs to be investigated, and then properly treated. It's serious business that should not be dragged out and hemmed and hawed over.
 

jrvswim

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Spinn, Philec,

Thanks for you opinions on the endos. I went to the endo at UVA today reguardless since the appointment only costs me six dollars...

Firstly he threw clomid completely out the window. He said it wasn't safe, and would only be a short term solution. Do you all agree?

He decided he wanted to run a few more blood tests. The first one was to check out my thyroid, can thyroids be responsible for low T? The other he wanted to do was a more advance version of the total t, free t test. He said a small minority of men naturally produce lower testosterone. Free testosterone is test. not bound by proteins. He said in this small subset of the population they don't have proteins that bind testosterone so the free t and total results are very wrong, and more tests are needed to get an accurate measure? Opinions.

Since he completely threw out clomid, he suggested if my thyroid comes back out to try out androgel. He said my nuts would not shrink and I would someday beable to have kids if I came off the drug and got an LH shot in the ass. Is this true, I really don't want my nuts to shrink? What have your experiences been like on low to mid. doses of androgel? A good idea or big mistake? Once you start hormone replacement therapy are you basically stuck on it for like? I'm 21 and HATE this idea.

Thanks
 

spinn

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Yes thyroid can somehow cause low T. First you want to find out why you have low T. IE is your brain sending a siganal to produce it, test for lh and fsh to determine this. Or are you testes getting the signal but just not producing it? And any external source of T will cause your testes to shrink, that is why people take hcg, to restore them. Start by taking your temperature a few times a day and compare to this chart http://www.drrind.com/therapies/metabolic-temperature-graph that will indicate if you have thyroid or adrenal issues. Your dr is closer than most but still a bit off. I wish I could see a dr for $6. And no you dont want to start T unless you really need it.
 

jrvswim

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Are thyroid issues normally treatable or are they just the same solution of hormone replacement?
 

spinn

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yes sometime you can coax them back even vitamin C hepls. Thyroid is very often adrenal related, I would do that temp test to see which is causing it.
 

jrvswim

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Thanks, I will do the temp. test usually my temperature is lower than average in the 97.8 or range.
 
gamer2be08

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If you take androgel your nuts will shrink and the LH shot he was referring to is probably hcg. Sounds like he is trying to put you on TRT. And if you were to have to go on TRT, IM injections of test-c weekly would be the better option. You would probably need an AI like a-dex as well. Go further into the blood tests and if LH is the only problem limiting your test production, find a doc/specialist that would put you on clomid for a restart.
 

JaredGalloway

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Take 50mgs of clomiphene for 4 weeks... then continue of needed for another 4 weeks... i have run clomid for 12 weeks with a low dose of exemestane and it helped out all my hormonal problems... which i have alot of...
 

DT5

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Spinn, Philec,

Thanks for you opinions on the endos. I went to the endo at UVA today reguardless since the appointment only costs me six dollars...

Firstly he threw clomid completely out the window. He said it wasn't safe, and would only be a short term solution. Do you all agree?

He decided he wanted to run a few more blood tests. The first one was to check out my thyroid, can thyroids be responsible for low T? The other he wanted to do was a more advance version of the total t, free t test. He said a small minority of men naturally produce lower testosterone. Free testosterone is test. not bound by proteins. He said in this small subset of the population they don't have proteins that bind testosterone so the free t and total results are very wrong, and more tests are needed to get an accurate measure? Opinions.

Since he completely threw out clomid, he suggested if my thyroid comes back out to try out androgel. He said my nuts would not shrink and I would someday beable to have kids if I came off the drug and got an LH shot in the ass. Is this true, I really don't want my nuts to shrink? What have your experiences been like on low to mid. doses of androgel? A good idea or big mistake? Once you start hormone replacement therapy are you basically stuck on it for like? I'm 21 and HATE this idea.

Thanks

im 27 dude. in your same boat. doc told me im probably secondary because i had normal size nuts, just low ass total test for my age (330).

you are right, if your natural test is low, clomid wont help. it will have you at 800 for a while, then when you stop it will be low again back to normal. dont **** with it. external test applications like TRT injects or gels are ok, but i can understand your desire to not go on it. However, dont listen to these "gurus" who always say its permanent. its not. most docs will have you try it for 3 months, then re-test you and see how you are coming along. actually alot of docs are now advocating HPTA restarts for their long term TRT patients. You come off using some PCT meds like HCG and adex once or twice a year for a month or 2, and boom, back to where you started. this way you will never be permanently shut down and your receptors will clear. your doc sounds educated on this subject, so just do what he recommends. remember, trying TRT is NOT permanent if you dont want it to be.


hope this helps
 
gamer2be08

gamer2be08

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im 27 dude. in your same boat. doc told me im probably secondary because i had normal size nuts, just low ass total test for my age (330).

you are right, if your natural test is low, clomid wont help. it will have you at 800 for a while, then when you stop it will be low again back to normal. dont **** with it. external test applications like TRT injects or gels are ok, but i can understand your desire to not go on it. However, dont listen to these "gurus" who always say its permanent. its not. most docs will have you try it for 3 months, then re-test you and see how you are coming along. actually alot of docs are now advocating HPTA restarts for their long term TRT patients. You come off using some PCT meds like HCG and adex once or twice a year for a month or 2, and boom, back to where you started. this way you will never be permanently shut down and your receptors will clear. your doc sounds educated on this subject, so just do what he recommends. remember, trying TRT is NOT permanent if you dont want it to be.


hope this helps
Your right, TRT is a choice and isnt permanent, just like any doctor advised prescription/treatment. But, an average of 300 total test doesnt cut it in my book....
 

jrvswim

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Thanks for the advice guys,

I saw my Uro. today he thinks my varicocele surgery is healing alright and i can get back to lifting. He also still expects increases in test. to be felt around 90 days or so after surgery (that would mean another sixty days). I hope thats not a bunch of ****. Anways, I have to lab reports, one from UVA endocrinology, and the other from labcore. Can these results be compared?

Labcore: Collected at 9:09 am T total 330 range 280-800 unit ng/dL
Free T 8.0 range 9.3 to 26.5 unit pg/mL


UVA labs
Sex horm bind gl (shbg) 16 range 13-71
total t 294 range 310 to 1010 ng/dL
free t 81.9 range 47 to 244 pg/ml

On the UVA test I was much higher into the normal range on free t. But can this be compared? What makes free test. use able to the body is that it is not bound by protein. The sex horm bind stat shows that I naturally have a very lower level of protein that binds to my test. The endo says that because of my genetically lower than average protein binding level, I need less testosterone in general to have a normal free t level. Is this a bunch of ****/not? Anyone heard of this? Given that the ranges are very different..does it look like over the last month my free t has increased? It seems unlikely since my total t def. has not. I have been able to build muscle in the best but over the last 16 months I have had ed and limited sexual response... They told me now that my free t came back normal that would give me androgel now even if i want it. They said low free t cannot explain my ed problems. Any ideas on this
 

jrvswim

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oh ps! uva took my labs at about 2:30 in the afternoon, how much lower would my levels be then in comparison to 9 am
 

Bryce720

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Your levels would actually be higher in the A.M. draw as test peaks in the A.M. and decreases throughout the day. A later day draw would result in a lower test level.
 
JanSz

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Thanks for the advice guys,

I saw my Uro. today he thinks my varicocele surgery is healing alright and i can get back to lifting. He also still expects increases in test. to be felt around 90 days or so after surgery (that would mean another sixty days). I hope thats not a bunch of ****. Anways, I have to lab reports, one from UVA endocrinology, and the other from labcore. Can these results be compared?

Labcore: Collected at 9:09 am T total 330 range 280-800 unit ng/dL
Free T 8.0 range 9.3 to 26.5 unit pg/mL


UVA labs
Sex horm bind gl (shbg) 16 range 13-71
total t 294 range 310 to 1010 ng/dL
free t 81.9 range 47 to 244 pg/ml

On the UVA test I was much higher into the normal range on free t. But can this be compared? What makes free test. use able to the body is that it is not bound by protein. The sex horm bind stat shows that I naturally have a very lower level of protein that binds to my test. The endo says that because of my genetically lower than average protein binding level, I need less testosterone in general to have a normal free t level. Is this a bunch of ****/not? Anyone heard of this? Given that the ranges are very different..does it look like over the last month my free t has increased? It seems unlikely since my total t def. has not. I have been able to build muscle in the best but over the last 16 months I have had ed and limited sexual response... They told me now that my free t came back normal that would give me androgel now even if i want it. They said low free t cannot explain my ed problems. Any ideas on this
Sex horm bind gl (shbg) 16 range 13-71
total t 294 range 310 to 1010 ng/dL

Your SHBG=16
is very good
it is on a low end of good but it is good

You still need much more testosterone than you have
looking at this chart

http://www.andropause.org.uk/nomo_tas.pdf

and knowing that you want to have

FreeT(300-350)

you need

TT(925-1075)

when supplementing

///////////////
 

jrvswim

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what do you mean by

"Your SHBG=16
is very good
it is on a low end of good but it is good"

is it very good or on the low end of good? I don't really get what you ment here

do you want your shbg level to be as low as possible, so that your free t is higher? Or can a really low shbg level be bad?
 

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