quick temper led to Low Testosterone discovery

[spazface]

In February at a family dinner, my older daughter said something to me and i just snapped. I was loud, and mean, and for really no true reason, she didn't deserve it and the guilt ripped me up. Now i'm not a softy(the guilt had me almost in tears that night and well into the next day, she's only 4 and i'm not a monster) but i am very attached and my family is the single most important thing in the world to me, and i knew this was wrong. That night my wife sat me down, and said i needed to see someone, that my temper actually had been bad for a few months, but i never saw it(or just ignored her telling me about it). I called my GCP the next morning and he was able to get me in right away, we talked and he took blood. I was honest about the supplements i was taking, all herbal, as well as allergy meds, etc. He said to stop them all asap and see how i feel and he would call me when the blood came back.

a few days later he calls and says, "i'm faxing you a copy of your bloodwork so you can take a look, but you came back for low testosterone and your liver #'s are all over the chart. I'm referring you to a urologist so he can look into your low testosterone, keep me informed"
here's a summary of some of the bloodwork, i have the full sheets at home, and here's my stats

32m, 5'10.75", 18%bf

drawn 2.08.2010
Total Test was 194 (241-827)
cortisol total 10.7
cholesterol, total 99(47HDL/44LDL)
Albumin 5.3H (3.6-5.1)
Globulin, calculate 2.0L (2.1-3.7)
A/G Ratio 2.7H (1.0-2.1)

a week after that i met with the urologist, he took blood and asked me about my symptoms, some of which i didn't even realize i was having.
temper
low-no sex drive(i didnt even realize this, my wife later explained that i went from "bothering" her constantly, to not at all)
bad sleep
trouble losing some bf

10 days later the urologists bloodwork results came back
Drawn 2.18.2010
Testosterone, Free(84402)
Test Total 243(Abn:L) (250-1100)
Test, % Free 1.66 (1.5-2.20)
Test, Free 40.3 (35.0-155.0)

FSH (83001)
FSH 2.5 (1.6-8.0)

Prolactin (84146)
Prolactin 5.3 (2.0-18.0)

the urologist sat me down and said what do you want me to do? i requested that i feel normal again and want my wife, feel better and normal. He suggested androgel, i wasn't too keen on it though. The aspects of topicals i dont' like overall since i have sensitive skin, but the possibility of transmission, dht levels being too high, etc. Also test without hcg can be a bad idea from my readings. I didn't really think and went and got the script filled, went home and opened the box and started to read the papers inside, i didn't like what i saw so i went on the web to research it more.

There began the mindfuk, the possibility of sterility, among other sides, the doubt i was developing that my doctor wasn't geared for this type of treatments, etc. He didn't ask the questions i felt he should have, nor run full hormone panel on me. I went to see an endocrinologist this past week and after trying to talk to him he went into a "if the body was so simple, and the internet so complete we wouldn't need doctors. sometimes patients come in here and know their diagnosis already and my job isn't to prove them wrong, etc bla bla,", i let him rant then he sent me for more blood and more tests, including LH, etc. As well he requested i go in first thing in the morning within one hour of waking and not eating. I get these results this week coming. He stated he felt my test would be ok, and that it may be a different underlying issue and he would help me find out what it is. He also said i was smart to have not started the androgel yet which made me happy(even though he had an androgel stamp on the counter, no doubt so he can write the scripts faster and easier, so as to keep the free lunches and spiff from his androgel rep flowing)

In the end, i felt the endocrinologist(my wife is also his patient), is going to look deeper into my situation. I do not want to go on TRT/HRT, but i want to be better, if if means banking sperm on ice i dont care, but i want to be sure it's the right course of treatment before driving down that road. I already have some solid T boosters in the house, as well as PP's TRS that i am willing to try, but in the end if i have to do TRT, i want to shoot it as pellets/topicals/pills just don't seem to be a solid option since it may be a lifelone thing.

At 32, i never thought i would have an issue like this. Sorry if the post is somewhat jumbled and rampant, i'm also a hair dyslexic unfortunately but luckily it's not causing my low testosterone.

I've been training since June 2009, lost alot of fat, down from 240lbs, my strength is up but my growth in LBM i feel has slowed alot, as well as some stubborn gut/chest fat.

i'm hoping some of you may have some insight into the matter.

 

[bigsexy74]

im pretty much facing the same situation as you bro....t levels are in the low normal range...sex drive pretty much out the window...hard to convince my wife that its not her, but having her see my labwork really helps. going to an endo in may and ive been looking up alot of info on here myself. hoping he goes for hcg therapy. good luck to you man.

 

[spinn]

Your doctor is right, with all the content on the net you really dont need a doctor. Now i mostly use mine to confirm the research I have done and make sure my conclusions are correct, then do them. You are correct that hcg only treatment is the safest and can sigificantly raise your levels. You really need your estradiol checked, my guess is that caused you temper. Also, you need to have your prostate specific androgens (psas) checked before going on testosterone. Testosterone can raise these and that may lead to prostate cancer. Your dr really blew it in that respect.

Lastly, endos are notoriously bad, research this board they are awful. Call a compounding pharmacy like http://www.womensinternational.com/ and ask for a dr in your area familiar with hrt.

hope this helps

 

[spazface]

i "think" he ordered estrogen testing on this recent test, i will know more next week. Gonna try to call a local compound pharmacy as well and see who they refer. thank you for the input!!

 

[Gutterpump]

Your cholesterol is super low. No doubt this has a major effect on your hormone levels. With too low a level of cholesterol (and/or poor nutrition), you may as well be castrating yourself. HCG will not work if it has no building blocks for your body to create it's own hormones.

 

[spazface]

Your cholesterol is super low. No doubt this has a major effect on your hormone levels. With too low a level of cholesterol (and/or poor nutrition), you may as well be castrating yourself. HCG will not work if it has no building blocks for your body to create it's own hormones.

initially that was my first inclination as well, and the urologist said that he had never ever seen a ttl 99 cholesterol in all his years of practice. Its from super clean eating, and he said though it wasn't what was causing this problem. He was actually really interested in my diet cause it was so low, as in copying it. It was 120ttl in Nov when i had a regular physical at my other doctor(left his practice, too much of a factory). It's low yes, but i get plenty of good fats thru fish and meats, as well as 6-10mg of fish oil/6 cla capsules everyday.

wish that was the cause man, i would kill for some chili cheese fries and a shake, hahahaa

 

[spinn]

initially that was my first inclination as well, and the urologist said that he had never ever seen a ttl 99 cholesterol in all his years of practice. Its from super clean eating, and he said though it wasn't what was causing this problem. He was actually really interested in my diet cause it was so low, as in copying it. It was 120ttl in Nov when i had a regular physical at my other doctor(left his practice, too much of a factory). It's low yes, but i get plenty of good fats thru fish and meats, as well as 6-10mg of fish oil/6 cla capsules everyday.

wish that was the cause man, i would kill for some chili cheese fries and a shake, hahahaa

75% of cholesterol is produced by the liver, diet accounts for the other 25%. That is why, when peoples hormones are low the body produces extra cholesterol in the hopes of making more hormones. Diet actually has very little to do with cholesterol, unless your diet is really bad. You probably crave those fries because your body wants more cholesterol.

 

[spinn]

your low testosterone is probably due to low cholesterol. and yes you can buy cholesterol pills. No doctor will tel you this.

 

[Gutterpump]

75% of cholesterol is produced by the liver, diet accounts for the other 25%. That is why, when peoples hormones are low the body produces extra cholesterol in the hopes of making more hormones.

This is true but it's a catch 22. The liver can not produce cholesterol without saturated fat. Eating foods high in cholesterol only contribute to a low % of total cholesterol like you said, but the liver produces most of it out of saturated fats. The best source of saturated fat would be extra virgin coconut oil.

I don't understand why people specifically doctors are obsessed with having low cholesterol levels thinking it's better for their heart. HDL is great for you. Cholesterol, besides being a building block for almost ALL your hormones, is also needed for the body to repair it's cell membranes.

Your ultra clean diet is castrating you. I've seen it many times on this forum, and most people complain of low test levels when dieting. You aren't supposed to be on a diet 365 days of the year.

 

[spazface]

one thing that i changed was eating more for the last few weeks, around the 2700-3000 calorie mark. I will give the ev coco oil a shot, thank you for the tip. Will eating coconut suffice or just not be enough quantity of sat fats?

this isn't the first time i've read it's my diet that's doing this, but ironically i'm in the best physical shape of my life. I have more bloodwork scheduled in a few weeks so i will definitely make adjustments to my fat intake, like i said i want to avoid HRT/TRT and i do believe that you are what you eat so it's worth a shot

 

[spazface]

one thing i haven't mentioned, i totally forgot. i DID tell the endo but don't recall with the urologist(though i believe it was on the forms), i had bad prostatitus for a few years, started around when i was 18, then on and off till i was like 25, then nothing for years. As well there's prostate cancer on my mothers side(well her whole side is riddled with cancer)

 

[spinn]

then you really need to get your psa's tested. even if they are currently low, the trend is important too, ie are they rising?

 

[Philec48]

Spazface, please post your LH result. Your FSH looks low. If LH is also low, you may be secondary hypo-g. However, as others have posted, your cholesterol is not at the optimal level for hormone production.

Don't take cholesterol pills, eat more eggs (yolk only). Don't eat the egg whites, as your albumin is already too high.

To confirm if other hormones are low, have E2 (estradiol) and progesterone tested.

Your zinc and vitamin D3 (25-Hydroxy) may be too low, contributing to low testosterone.

After all hormone tests are complete, consider supplementing with pregnenolone to help boost levels if they are low. Stay under 50mg per day.

Thyroid problems can also affect testosterone. Get a real thyroid panel done which will include Free and Total T3 and T4, RT3 (reverse T3), TgAb, TPO, and TSH.

This may sound like a lot to do, but cover ALL your bases before starting androgen replacement therapy. If you do need TRT, add in HCG from the get-go to keep coconuts from shrinking and to help preserve fertility.

You're right, gels are a transfer risk. Don't fear the shots, they can be done sub-q (don't have to go deep) - and using a tiny 31g 1/4" needle = no pain.

Phil

 

[spazface]

i will post the results of wednesdays bloodwork as soon as i get them, but needles aren't an issue for me, i dont mind pain much.

 

[mikeyboyeee]

I am thinking your cortisol is low as well.

Def get that straightened out before taking any thyroid meds.

 

[spazface]

I am thinking your cortisol is low as well.

Def get that straightened out before taking any thyroid meds.

wouldn't lower cortisol be a benefit if i was heading into a cycle? i.e. that the pct may be easier?

that being said i'm not cycling anything except my bicycle until i'm fixed up.

 

[Gutterpump]

Low cortisol (abormally low levels which do not support you throughout the day in a normal way) lead to hypothyroidism and other things. Your body needs cortisol levels within range to support your energy and other functions. People who don't have enough cortisol tend to get snappy / annoyed / anxious quickly because their systems are running on norepinephrine / adrenaline. Your body's CNS will then tend to lean more towards the sympathetic nervous system.

 

[spazface]

Low cortisol (abormally low levels which do not support you throughout the day in a normal way) lead to hypothyroidism and other things.

just got back home from my trip so i have all the paperwork.

the 2.08.2010 test cortisol info
CORTISOL, TOTAL, SERUM 10.7 mcg/dL
ref. range cortisol am 4.0-22.0
ref. range cortisol pm 3.0-17.0

HDL 47 >=40
Cholesterol/HDL Ration 2.1 <= 5.0
LDL 44 <=130
Triglycerides 41 <150
TSH, 3rd Generation 0.89 0.40-4.50
T4, TOTAL 5.4 4.5-12.5 mcg/dL

Calcium 9.7 8.6-10.2
Protein total 7.3 6.2-8.3
Albumin 5.3H (3.6-5.1)
Globulin, calculate 2.0L (2.1-3.7)
A/G Ratio 2.7H (1.0-2.1)
Bilirubin, total 0.8 0.2-1.2

 

[spazface]

also the tested ordered last week were(off the form), and drawn around 9am after waking and no eating since 9pm the evening prior.

Testosterone, FR/TOT, LCMSMS
T4, FREE
FSH/LH
Prolactin
TSH, 3rd generation

results when they arrive will be posted.

 

[Philec48]

Really need total and free T3 also.

 

[spazface]

Really need total and free T3 also.

i have that from a physical done in 11.3.2009 if its of any relevance, and actually just pulling that report out i found another interesting part

T3, TOTAL 92 97-219
Cholesterol, Total 119 125-200
HDL 37 >=40
LDL calculated 62 <130
T3 Uptake 36 22-35

also on the report
Albumin 5.2 3.6-5.1
A/G Ratio 2.3 1.0-2.1
Creatinine 0.78 0.79-1.33

 

[Philec48]

92 in a range of 97-219 is way too low. Your recent total T4 is also on the low end. I suggest another total T3 test. If T3 is still low, with your TSH also on the low end, then you may be hypo-pituitary. Have you ever had a head injury? Also, has your prolactin ever been tested?

 

[spazface]

i just think my first GCP was a hack, or just too busy to actually do any real "care" work.

on a side note, at the end of my lifting this morning i got wildly lightheaded and dizzy, had to bail on my last set of DB Rows and left the gym with my head in a fog. not happy to say the least! it can't be just because i skipped my casein shake last night b4 bed either.

 

[Philec48]

Adrenals may be stressed. Ease up on workouts until they are assessed and treated.

 

[mikeyboyeee]

Cortisol is low fo sho.

 

[spinn]

Cortisol is produced from cholesterol as well so of course that will be low. I wouldnt be so quick to jump to adrenal fatigue.

 

[spazface]

i had already reduced my lifting days to 4 a week for the past few weeks, sometimes i will visit the gym a 5th time, but only cardio/stretching. Cardio 3 times a week. hoping the bloodwork comes back in today.

 

[spazface]

brief update. final report should arrive tomorrow but new test shows

Testosterone 302
Free% 1.74
Test free 52.5

this does show my body is apparently increasing it's hormone production to some degree, still low though imho.

 

[spazface]

full results
TSH 3rd gen 1.43 .4-4.5
T4, Free 0.9 .9-1.8
LH 1.4 1.5-9.3 LOW
FSH 3.5 1.6-8.0
Prolactin 6.6 2.0-18.0
TEST total 302 250-1100
Test %free 1.74 1.50-2.20
Test Free 52.5 35.0-155.0

i'm believing i am ok, doctor said no reason to follow up, nor start TRT at this point. Advised me to stay off all supplements(no shocker there).

i may have just been not eating enough and working out too much, but who knows. I'm feeling a little better each day since i'm not at the gym as much and eating alot more cals, so time to play it by ear. Have a follow up at the urologist beg. of May for more tests(he's under the impression i've been taking 1pump androgel a day, granted that's .25 the recommended dosage, wtf) and lets see what happens.

 

[Philec48]

You have the testosterone levels of a 70-80 year old man. Not saying you must go on TRT, but unless you really are that old, believing you are ok may be belief in something short of reality. Particularly since your LH is low.

A healthy pituitary should see the low T and kick in high gear and up the LH. For some reason yours is not. An MRI of your head may be helpful to learn if there is a tumor or some other issue with the gland. Check out this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empty_sella_syndrome

Stay off ALL supplements? Even vitamins and minerals? Shoot, even completely healthy people need to supplement those, as it's a fairy tale that we get enough of everything we need from the food we eat.

 

[spazface]

You have the testosterone levels of a 70-80 year old man. Not saying you must go on TRT, but unless you really are that old, believing you are ok may be belief in something short of reality. Particularly since your LH is low.

Stay off ALL supplements? Even vitamins and minerals? Shoot, even completely healthy people need to supplement those, as it's a fairy tale that we get enough of everything we need from the food we eat.

this whole situation has taken a nice mental toll on me, but that being said i feel better. I still have virtually no libido, no random wood and generally not "normal" yet. Every doc i think would say to stay off supplements, unless they sell them to you, they want you taking their scrips to keep the med companies fat. I'm giving it 4-5 more weeks, then i have more bloodwork coming up. If my natural levels do not rebound with my new diet and workouts, i will be doing TRT absolutely. Preferably inj. vs. this ignoral gel, just the sheer thought of my daughters/wife being exposed to androgel even in a minute sense pisses me off, as well as having to wash off prior to physical contact(granted, if i had any f'n libido) just pisses me off.

 

[spinn]

Spaz, yes most doctors are just employees of drug companies but the good ones rarely, if ever, use prescriptions. My dr almost never does and mostly "prescribes" things like magnesium and vitamin B.

Where do you live? I really think your very low cholesterol is the issue, and low LH.

BTW, men transfer testosterone to women wen they touch us, it is what gets them turned on.

 

[spazface]

BTW, men transfer testosterone to women wen they touch us, it is what gets them turned on.

this i never heard before, but i would wager transfer from a location with androgel is quite a bit more.

pms sent :tongue2:

 

[spinn]

this i never heard before, but i would wager transfer from a location with androgel is quite a bit more.

pms sent :tongue2:

I am not sure what causes hair growth, it is related to testosterone but not exactly the same.

 

[monsterbox]

full results
TSH 3rd gen 1.43 .4-4.5
T4, Free 0.9 .9-1.8
LH 1.4 1.5-9.3 LOW
FSH 3.5 1.6-8.0
Prolactin 6.6 2.0-18.0
TEST total 302 250-1100
Test %free 1.74 1.50-2.20
Test Free 52.5 35.0-155.0

i'm believing i am ok, doctor said no reason to follow up, nor start TRT at this point. Advised me to stay off all supplements(no shocker there).

i may have just been not eating enough and working out too much, but who knows. I'm feeling a little better each day since i'm not at the gym as much and eating alot more cals, so time to play it by ear. Have a follow up at the urologist beg. of May for more tests(he's under the impression i've been taking 1pump androgel a day, granted that's .25 the recommended dosage, wtf) and lets see what happens.

my levels were almost identical. 99.9% of docs will say you are normal. This is because they are trained to read blood tests and assume you are normal if you are on the range.

Unfortunately, on the range doesn't qualify as normal for your age. You should seriously consider finding an Anti-Aging doctor and considering TRT. I'm on it now and I will never look back. Yes, there may be fertility issues, but theres ways to fix that in the future.

 

[spazface]

yeah, and i'm confident the endo just blew me off. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when i think, and how. I would like to do it my way, since i'm stuck for life<no pun intended>.

giving one more supplement a shot for a month(starting soon), and then if that doesn't make it happen, ahead we go.

 

[monsterbox]

yeah, and i'm confident the endo just blew me off. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when i think, and how. I would like to do it my way, since i'm stuck for life<no pun intended>.

giving one more supplement a shot for a month(starting soon), and then if that doesn't make it happen, ahead we go.

no otc supplement is going to bring your T levels up to reasonable levels. Don't waste you money on those DHEA creams and all that bullcrap.

The only thing that would help at all in the long run might be clomiphene citrate restart.

 

[spazface]

no otc supplement is going to bring your T levels up to reasonable levels. Don't waste you money on those DHEA creams and all that bullcrap.

The only thing that would help at all in the long run might be clomiphene citrate restart.

i hear ya. the clomi concept for a restart is interesting, but i would have to trt first no? or do a healthy test cycle:salook: first , which i dont think i would be mad at.

 

[spazface]

spoke with several doctors today at a few of the anti-aging places. Non are covered by any insurance, cause the HMO/EPO/PPO's all have a say in your personal care and thus can dictate what you get.

health care reform? keep fighting it, it will only get worse. The patient is taken out of the equation unfortunately in the current situation.:fest30:

 

[spinn]

I went to congress last week and as soon as Pelosi poked her head out of her office, 100 people booed like it was a football game, it got almost scary. Insurance doesnt cover one penny of what I am doing.

 

[spazface]

yeah, that's a major issue for me at the moment. Business sucks so there's no cash to play with, my balls are last priority in relation to my family and their needs. Though today i had a complete and utter meltdown and had to remove myself to my room to pass out.

 

[Gutterpump]

Before I started HRT, I used to infrequently use lorazipam (ativan) to help control this. Worked real well when needed to level the mood/agitation.

I started using isocort / hydrocortisone before test-cyp, and found the HC helped this the most as it helps your adrenals and lowers amounts of norepi in your system (which at high levels will cause major anxiety or agitation). Adding the test obviously helped a lot too.

 

[spazface]

i've had ativan in the past, had some anxiety in my early 20's, strong stuff.

caved in and started the androgel a few days ago. It's annoying to put on, how the hell can anyone absorb more then a few pumps, you would need to cover your whole damn body, as well its irritating my skin. Washing it off is a pain in the ass, it's all nasty when it gets wet again, like goopy. Not a fan, but going to give it a shot for a few weeks, i have it already in my hands and dont wanna waste it.

 

[spinn]

hate to say it, but I really believe your problems are due to low cholesterol, your body simply does not have the raw materials to produce hormones. if on androgel you should be on hcg to help avoid shut down, You should probably be on hcg only initially anyway. Any doctor who doesnt do this is suspect at best.

Many of the people Ive seen on androgel end up with lower levels within a few months.

 

[djremix]

here is another way to look at this.
you have low total cholesterol BECAUSE your gonads are not receivng a signal to create more testesterone, which would cause the body to not require a big amount of serum cholesterol on hand.
perhaps raising your test levels back to baseline or more would slowly solve all your problems.

you need to fix your hormones in as natural a way as possible. to kickstart them so that when you stop their levels return to baseline.

may i suggest a 6 week cycle to help start you off.

week 1 to 2
50mg clomid every other day at night, if you cant source this then 2nd option would be primordial performance sustain alpha LV
viable herbs have a catuaba/horney goat/muira puima combo that is fantastic. 2 pills twice daily
NOW testojack 200, some of the above plus many good co-factor, 2 pill morning night
a good multivitamin like NOW
a good ZMA product at night

week 3 to 4
reduce clomid to 25mg eod
increase calories a little, add in some carbs if you are low carbing but none after 7pm
add in a divanil product, something like activate extreme at 2 times daily dosage

week 5 to 6
stop the clomid
add in an AI, something like inhibit-e, containing ATD, 1 pill mornings(@25mg) only

retest at end of week 6 and make sure you stop everything for 48 hours before the test.

Evaluate your progress and decide if your levels are acceptable.

then decide if youd like to continue and raise them for another 6 weeks(if you are enjoying your gains in the gym) or if you just want to wait 2 weeks and see how your baseline has become.

Good luck, because if the above dont work out, then you really need to find an hrt specialist.

as for the other comments, i do agree that most likely your temper is fueled by excess adrenalin/nor-adrenalin floating around because of lower hormone levels. so that should fix itself gradually.
as most people will tell you normarl to high normal levels of testesterone actually calm you down and brighten your mood and that is how your libido is raised.

Your thyroid does not seem too skewed considering everything. unless you wake up really cold when other do not??

hope you feel better

 

[spazface]

hate to say it, but I really believe your problems are due to low cholesterol, your body simply does not have the raw materials to produce hormones. if on androgel you should be on hcg to help avoid shut down, You should probably be on hcg only initially anyway. Any doctor who doesnt do this is suspect at best.

Many of the people Ive seen on androgel end up with lower levels within a few months.

i've increased my fat intakes quite a bit, as well everyday i take about 1tbs of coconut oil. The doctor's have said my cholesterol is not the cause though. I agree 100% on the hcg though, and although i started the gel am aggressively seeking other care, with a more intune doc. the faq on this subforum has some great reference to finding a good doctor.

 

[spazface]

djremix, i like the idea of the clomid as well(have some in hand).

if the gel doesn't get me to where i need, i plan to do a clomid type restart to wake up the nutz prior to pinning.

 

[spinn]

i've increased my fat intakes quite a bit, as well everyday i take about 1tbs of coconut oil. The doctor's have said my cholesterol is not the cause though. I agree 100% on the hcg though, and although i started the gel am aggressively seeking other care, with a more intune doc. the faq on this subforum has some great reference to finding a good doctor.

The doctors are wrong, i guarantee they would give you statins to lower it, however.

 

[spazface]

The doctors are wrong, i guarantee they would give you statins to lower it, however.

they would lower my cholesterol further? that i don't understand.

 

[spinn]

they would lower my cholesterol further? that i don't understand.

one of my doctors at Kaiser wanted to lower it to 0; then she threatened to sue me for arguing with her. Amazing.