- 12-01-2013, 10:30 AM
I agree with MrTT, don't go chasing things for no reason. If there are actual symptoms, then get full bloodwork and begin there. Don't just throw things into your system in hopes of achieving a number.
Even those of us on TRT know that you can't chase numbers. Could I make my T levels in the 1000's if I wanted- yeah, but it isn't better.
- 12-01-2013, 12:04 PM
Your not on TRT so don't try Arimidex or even DIM try some Zinc 50 mgs / 2 mgs of Copper this helps keep your testis healthy and helps to keep E2 down. Stay away from Soy, eating or drinking water from plastic bottles they leach E's in to your food and water so don't heat up food in plastic. Take 2 mgs of Copper at noon and the 50 mgs of Zinc at bedtime Zinc can lower Copper so take Copper with Zinc.
12-01-2013, 01:49 PM
First of all, I appreciate you all taking the time to give me some feedback. Thank you very much.
Secondly, I just wanted to share a bit more info on my history, I have had libido/performance issues for the past 10 years among other things such as anxiety/cognitive issues, excessive sweating/oily, I'm just now realizing that my doctors didn't know anything and steered me in the wrong direction and I'm putting a lot of effort into researching and getting a full picture of my hormone levels. My free T has fluctuated between 10.7 and 14.5 over the past 2 years. Some resources I have read say that <15 free T is synonymous with low T symptoms. I believe my low-ish free T is a result of high SHBG. Although, I also have low FSH 1.2 (range 1.5-18.5) which indicates a potential pituitary issue.
excerpt from my private MD labs:
LH 3.6 ( range 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL CB)
FSH 1.2 LOW (range 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL CB)
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum 43.4 (range 16.5-55.9 nmol/L CB)
Testosterone, Serum 620 ( range 348-1197 ng/dL CB)
Free T 14.2 pg/mL (range 9.3-26.5) < In 2012 it was 10.9 (range 8.9-55)
Estradiol 26.9 ( range 7.6-42.6 pg/mL CB)
There are a lot of tests I still plan to get from private MD labs: thyroid panel/DHEA/cortisol saliva 24 hr/progesterone, but I'm not really sure which ones should be the priority. I'm also focusing on excercising more, eating more protein, sleeping more, taking zinc 50mg a day in addition to a multi. I'll try to pick up a copper supplement as well.
12-01-2013, 04:01 PM
12-01-2013, 10:27 PM
directlabs.com has D3 blood test on sale for $39. I have been able to combine Directlabs.com and privatemdlabs.com scripts into one blood draw at labcorp.
12-01-2013, 11:01 PM
12-02-2013, 11:10 AM
12-02-2013, 12:31 PM
12-02-2013, 01:58 PM
Good LH level but low FSH level could be DNA (Have you considered 23andME testing??? I just checked the site and they are still selling test kits.)
I don't know if low FSH affects libido. I self experiment, (not always a good idea) but, HcG looks like TSH, LH, and FSH to your body. I wonder if sublingualing a sensible dose of HcG would help with your symptoms, and give you additional information and medical path to look into ???
12-02-2013, 03:04 PM
When a Total T level of 620 your LH should be low meaning your brain sees your TT levels at 620 are good the LH and FSH messages sent from your brain tells your testis to make more Testosterone. So all I am saying is withy a TT level of 620 your LH is low because your brain feels your TT levels are high enough.
12-02-2013, 05:12 PM
That makes sense about the LH and my total T levels. I've always been more concerned with my free T levels (consistently low-normal) and high SHBG. The low FSH does concern me too because it is not in range and ties into fertility, etc, and in all my research low FSH is consistently linked to a potential pituitary issue. Although, I'm not really sure who to talk to about FSH issues. Like who would even be knowledgeable or an "expert" on it? My primary care doctor doesn't know anything and the urologists I saw didn't even know what SHBG was. Thanks for the feedback!
12-02-2013, 05:25 PM
I am Hypopituitary and I was told I am Primary for the first 20 yrs of 32 on TRT it was when I found a better Dr. and he figured out with the help of Dr. John C. to add HCG to my 150 mgs Depo T shot once a week. On this HCG my TT levels went from 600 to 1200 showing my new Dr. my Testis work. It was after this they treated all my hormones that were low or in the low end of the labs rage.
You can find a lot of info at this link go to the section that is closed to posting called "Hypopituitary" The guy there Chris helped me a lot too bad he is not there anymore.
12-02-2013, 05:34 PM
12-03-2013, 09:11 AM
Philip et al
Apologies for my absence from this thread the last few days. I've been running some self imposed experiments and doing some further research.
I had to understand the depressive element of adex better and see if there is any way the mood effect could be ameliorated during use.
Adex lowers estrogen. In both males and females, Estrogen plays a regulatory role in serotonin (positive correlation), but also in dopamine and epinephrine. In women in particular, while E is associated with wild mood swings in higher doses, it is also implicated in high creativity. Creativity is the love child of dopamine. It's why writers love coke and coffee!
I had high serotonin to begin with, so i was surprised when adex dropped my mood so much. I expected to be calmer, not depressed, chilled not down. But I was feeling seriously low at 0.5mg ED. With the knowledge of E and its effects on ALL the main neurotransmitter classes i decided to boost my dopamine while still on Adex. This is easy. You have an empty stomach, then take a gram of the powdered (emptied capsule) amino acid tyrosine and put it under the tongue. Let it sink in for five mins and swallow the rest. Within about 15 minutes the user will experience a dopamine rush. Well... i can tell you that my downer lifted pretty much immediately. There was a song on the radio, i turned it up and started singing along. I then went crazy tidying up and cleaning my kitchen. My brother called over and had a disagreement with me about some family matter. I shouted him down like I was on a gram of Sus250 a week and felt no stress! Yep, i think it is safe to say Adex had suppressed my dopamine. I am feeling edgy but super confident on the tyrosine and I feel elevated in mood. I don't want to boost the serotonin, so I will leave out the 5htp. This mood feels just right.
Another important thing about using tyrosine in this situation is that, by saturating the dopamine system with a precursor, there is less chance of downregulation or damage. In fact there is the possibility to be an improvement. This can be better understood by checking out the work of neuro guru Dan Kalish.
Potentially, I have the ability to readjust neurotransmitter receptor numbers and function - by using a drug that is designed to deal with an endo problem. Look at the features of E dominance in males.
- pounding heart = norepinephrine
- irrirtability = excessive serotonin and moodiness
The symptoms are not driven (usually) by sky high E blood test numbers. They are driven by an E that is much higher in proportion to T and therefore becomes a dominant force in neuro effect. Young, healthy levels of E in males are at ratios of 20:1 to 30:1 with T, not a crushing 10:1 or less in TRT situations.
In the movie 'As Good As It Gets', Jack Nicholson plays the part of a highly successful writer, writing womens' books in the guise of a female author. He is asked 'how do you get inside of the mind of a woman so well?' The reply - 'Simple, I think of a man and take away all sense of accountability and reason.'
12-03-2013, 09:18 AM
All these things look high higher E in ratio to T. The lack of motivation is a classic low dopamine situation. T raises dopamine in a direct correlation and I suspect E attenuates it's activity. Have you tried an AI yet? Even at that, estrogen is one of those chemicals that hangs around the body like a bad smell. it can take days to flush out once the production is brought under control, so any monitored effect will take a few days to note. Can you get some new bloods done and include progesterone?
12-03-2013, 11:52 AM
I was low for yrs. on Cortisol, Thyroid, Gorwth Hormone doing an IGF-1 test. And Aldosterone and Renin. Along with this doing a SpectraCell nutritional test we found I was low on Ferritin, Folate RBC, B-12 and in need of supplements to bring my Homocysteine Cardiovascular levels down. My Pregnenolone and Progesterone were very low.
And due to the low GH levels I ended up having to have heart bypass surgery 5 yrs ago this went bad I got an infection in my sternum and needed to be opened up again and again and left open due to having been on blood thinning meds. So until this got this fixed I was put in a coma for 14 weeks.
I can't prove this but I feel I got this infection because the Dr. that did the surgery took me off TRT even when it said in my chart not to. My Family Dr. heard I was not doing well after I missed appointment he called my wife and then came to see me when he seen I was off TRT he had a big long talk with the heart Dr. that did the surgery and I was put back on TRT this is when the infection went away.
So all them yrs about 20 with low hormones messed up my heart causing two 98% blockages going to my heart. I try to tell all men that post about low hormones to have them all checked find out why your low and if it can be fixed fix it. Don't go on TRT unitl you know why your low and if you test low in range for hormones and such treat this.
12-03-2013, 11:59 AM
I do feel down when I drive my E2 down to low maybe your taking to much Arimidex .5 mgs or one half a pill is a lot ED. I tell men if your E2 is above 30 pg/ml but less then 50 try .25 mgs or 1/4 of a pill E3D. If over 50 then I tell them to do .5 mgs every other day.
12-03-2013, 01:31 PM
Thanks for your reply and info Andalucia. Glad the Tyrosine experiment went well for you! yes I agree wholeheartely on Low dopamine for me to. I need more FREE and BIO avail T I feel, as these are in the "low-normal" range and need to be in the 3/4 range. yes I do have an AI, Arimidex 1 mg. I just got the script refilled recently and i have been cutting the tabs into 1/4 and taking it EOD or so? Should I take a whole 1 mg tab twice a week like this Dr wrote for or will that drive it too low? Even though my last lab which was early Nov, my E2 was 28 at quest, but it has too high or not clearing as you say, because I have this funk like smell, along with Low to zero Liibido,ED, clicking/popping joints, adipose tissue at waist (never had it), loss of muscle mass etc. Also due to sleep apnea, I also have no energy to work out or go to Gym, or break a sweat, steam to get out toxins/poisons. I can try to get back to this Doc and get him to include Progesterone, sure. Get back when you can?
12-12-2013, 04:42 PM
Blood test results are back. In less than two weeks of arimidex, my testosterone has grown from a borderline trt level of 15, to an amazing top of the range 31. I have actually pulled back to an eighth of a tab per day to lower my a T a little. My E is at 70 - th lower end of normal. My prolactin is high but I suspect my dairy cream consumption and have switched to animal fats. My doc is very impressed and wants a test in one month. I see an endo tomorrow and look forward to discussing my results.
On the way up I have learnt that the body will fight hard to prevent us changing the T/E ratio - even when it is in seriously negative territory. Estrogen's relationship with cortisol and serotonin means when you pull the plug on E dominance you can expect the ass to drop out of your mood. But after a matter of days, testosterone takes over and starts to raise the mood. Now I find that bringing my own T down a little actually causes a drop in mood! BUT this tells me something really important - that I have broken the previous hormonal 'homeostasis' and set a new balance. My liver is processing Adex rapidly - 20 hours! Some folks like me rapidly metabolise this drug and other classes. This also means I can expect more symptomatic highs and lows. I don't need tyrosine to sustain mood via dopamine. My T is doing that for me now, but at my most uncomfortable stage of adex use, the tyrosine was really helpful.
I will advise my test results next month and see where this takes me. Right now I feel very comfortable on my revised dose, as long as I stick to the schedule rigidly. There does seem to be an overnight peak in E. but I feel it rapidly subsiding as if my T is now the main driver. I should try coming off in a week or two and see if this reset is permanent.
12-12-2013, 04:55 PM
Thunder have you had your cortisol checked? I wonder if it is high and keeping E in the driving seat? Cortisol is notoriously resistant to control attempts. However I have found Stablon to be very effective at an hpta reset. When cortisol is cleared, it's main competitor T has the opportunity to fill the void which it will do, sometimes rapidly. See www.tianeptine.com
For me, Adex was something I 'felt' my way with, simply by monitoring my moods! If you feel a downer or anxiety or a panic kicking in at the end of the first or second day, you will know something is clearing the system - in my experience. I am doing a very small dose every day because that is what works for me. I have also noted that dose changes are felt within the day eg going from a quarter to an eighth pill brought on some temporary anxiety.
12-13-2013, 11:19 AM
hey Andalucia and NO i have not checked by cortisol and i think this is Paramount, that I should do this! All i have ever had checkled was an AM blood test whichwas 14, if I recall and I understand this is essentially useless. I know for a fact that STRESS started my whole cascade into Hell and it was Overtraining one day just doing too many heavy squats for my age (50), and i woke up the next AM and felt like I been hit by a truck and my sleep apnea went thru the roof and I have been teetering in the abyss for 2 yrs now. On the Saliva cortisol tests, can one DIY them or do you have to spit 4 diff intervals in a day and mail them to a lab? Thank you for the link and getting back to me with this very valuable info. I had been supping with Zinc a little, (50 mgs per day) and also supping with the arimadex cutting the 1 mg into 1/4's adn taking it every otherday. But My joints still pop and click, Nipples get erect, which I could give a **** aabout any of those., but im not getting any REM sleep wood and my libido and mood is just like a flat line----------- I really dont feel a downer or anxieties.. I am just not FEELING and I always been animated and lively. But mainly i wont to feel normal again, as we all do. Hope you are doing better and thanks once again!
12-13-2013, 01:03 PM
Weird thing about Adex is it killed my emotions. I mean I was literally emotionless, didn't even have the ability to cry. Went to 2 funerals of people very close to me, and was the only one who didn't shed a tear. That sh-t turned me into an emotionless robot, very strange and terrible. Took about a month to regain some type of emotion. I'll only take it again if there's an e2 emergency, which I don't see ever happening.
12-13-2013, 04:27 PM
Thanks Lex and man that sounds familiar and it is a bum ride indeed, as you know! So did you take "Arimadex" or its generic equiv? Im guessing thats what "adex" is correct? Do you think I should not take the **** at all? I''ll deff go Another route w/ a diff supp. whatever it takes as I am in a hole and I want out. I am trying to DIY the rest of myself, pertaining to diet, hydration, sleep and exercise, (which has been nil basically as I have NO energy Most days).. but yeah this whole "hormonal hell" is quite a battle I see.
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