Natabolic stack micro log and a question about moving on to Trifecta

[dotyfish]

First, I'd like to appoligize beforehand about any potentail rambling and if I posted this in the wrong section . . . it is my first post and should probably be 2 separate ones.

Main question: about how long of a waiting period do I need to take between the Natabolic stack and Trifecta stack?


With my main question out of the way, I'd like to comment on my experience with Natadrol. I had taken a certain Gaspari product (which will remain nameless . . . starts with an "H" though) about a month after a bad ankle injury that kept me laying around for nearly a month with the hopes that it would help me make up any losses while I laid around like a bum. The Gaspari product caused a weight gain of 13 lbs and a staggering 4% jump in body fat (measured through bioelectrical impedance, not calipers; appears to have messed with the scale's H2O measurements as well. I weigh first thing in the morning to help control for variables such as food and liquid intake). The Gaspari product was taken 20 days before Natadrol. I started Natadrol immediately following the Gaspari product and have 2 or 3 days left before I start Formadrol. Through the entire cycle, I've been taking 6/day as follows: 2 at approximately 6am, another 2 around 11:30 or noon and my final 2 between 4 and 4:30pm (about an hour before my usual weekday workouts).

I began Natadrol April 27th,, a day short of 2 months after my injury.
The first week on Natadrol, my beginning weight was 156.4 with 18.6% BF and 55% H2O. I'd say that on the second or third day, I began to observe a feeling of increased muscle density . . . maybe density isn't the right word, but I felt as if my muscles were harder. Sadly, that feeling went away; I’m by no means Pillsbury dough boy soft, just normal, maybe a little harder than usual. Recovery time has been great throughout the whole cycle. By the time I finish my post workout shake, I’m ready for more. As another benefit, all residual pain in my ankle went away quickly. I attribute it to the Cissus, as I have used it in the past for sprains and building tendon strength.
Weeks 2 -5 weren’t spectacular as far as noticeable effects. 3 pimples popped up after I took a hiatus from shaving, but I attribute that to sweat lingering on facial hair. Libido was a bit higher than usual.
During these weeks, some workouts got skipped and rearranged; no cardio at all.
On to the results as of now: Last weight in, I was 152.4, 16.5%BF and 57% H2O. What I find strange is that my H2O typically ran around 59% before the Gaspari product. I’m still wondering about the H2O% as well. I’m disappointed by the BF, but even though the scale says 16.5%, I look much more lean and defined than I did at 143lbs and 14%BF.
As far as strength gains, everything has nearly doubled. My favorite part is that my pull up gains have almost quadrupled.

[GMG760]

First, I'd like to appoligize beforehand about any potentail rambling and if I posted this in the wrong section . . . it is my first post and should probably be 2 separate ones.

Main question: about how long of a waiting period do I need to take between the Natabolic stack and Trifecta stack?


With my main question out of the way, I'd like to comment on my experience with Natadrol. I had taken a certain Gaspari product (which will remain nameless . . . starts with an "H" though) about a month after a bad ankle injury that kept me laying around for nearly a month with the hopes that it would help me make up any losses while I laid around like a bum. The Gaspari product caused a weight gain of 13 lbs and a staggering 4% jump in body fat (measured through bioelectrical impedance, not calipers; appears to have messed with the scale's H2O measurements as well. I weigh first thing in the morning to help control for variables such as food and liquid intake). The Gaspari product was taken 20 days before Natadrol. I started Natadrol immediately following the Gaspari product and have 2 or 3 days left before I start Formadrol. Through the entire cycle, I've been taking 6/day as follows: 2 at approximately 6am, another 2 around 11:30 or noon and my final 2 between 4 and 4:30pm (about an hour before my usual weekday workouts).

I began Natadrol April 27th,, a day short of 2 months after my injury.
The first week on Natadrol, my beginning weight was 156.4 with 18.6% BF and 55% H2O. I'd say that on the second or third day, I began to observe a feeling of increased muscle density . . . maybe density isn't the right word, but I felt as if my muscles were harder. Sadly, that feeling went away; I’m by no means Pillsbury dough boy soft, just normal, maybe a little harder than usual. Recovery time has been great throughout the whole cycle. By the time I finish my post workout shake, I’m ready for more. As another benefit, all residual pain in my ankle went away quickly. I attribute it to the Cissus, as I have used it in the past for sprains and building tendon strength.
Weeks 2 -5 weren’t spectacular as far as noticeable effects. 3 pimples popped up after I took a hiatus from shaving, but I attribute that to sweat lingering on facial hair. Libido was a bit higher than usual.
During these weeks, some workouts got skipped and rearranged; no cardio at all.
On to the results as of now: Last weight in, I was 152.4, 16.5%BF and 57% H2O. What I find strange is that my H2O typically ran around 59% before the Gaspari product. I’m still wondering about the H2O% as well. I’m disappointed by the BF, but even though the scale says 16.5%, I look much more lean and defined than I did at 143lbs and 14%BF.
As far as strength gains, everything has nearly doubled. My favorite part is that my pull up gains have almost quadrupled.

I'm here to help, but first I need to know what Gaspari product you were taking. If it was Halodrol-50 (and you somehow still had a box of the stuff from 4 years ago or so) you might be ok with just the Formadrol as PCT, but it depends on the dosing. You say you gained 13 lbs, but 4% bodyfat... that makes me think most of your gains were bodyfat... so it might not be the hdrol prohormone, and is more than likely one of the new versions of Halodrol either the MT or the liquigels. Either one of those isn't really a big deal as far as the cycle goes, well at leas not nearly as serious as the old Halodrol 50.

If I were you though, I would naturally gain some weight before trying another pro-hormone cycle, even the trifecta. There are some much better ways to gain that early on weight and drop some of that bodyfat before you start messing around with hormonal products. Your weight/BF% tells me that you probably have just started training, or are not dieting/training correctly (not talking down to you, just speaking my mind, and if you would like any advice on your training or diet, I am here to help.).

SO - Here is the rule of thumb, with any hormonal cycle that requires PCT, is Time ON + PCT = Time off cycle.

So, if you take a 4 week cycle, and a 4 week PCT, you need to wait AT MINIMUM (I reccomend an extra month... i don't recommend cycling ANY MORE than 3 times a year AT MAX.) 8 weeks before your next cycle.

More than likely the formadrol will do the trick for your PCT, but I would say at least 8 weeks is a good rule of thumb to wait before you cycle the trifecta if you do decide to go that route.

I think you would have better success with Formadrol/ASGT/POSTAL for your next cycle, it will be very kind to your body, and you should make GREAT gains if your diet and training are in check.

Any other questions, please let me know.

BTW, please let us know what gaspari product you took (the exact one). I have taken halodrol liquigels and the Halodrol pro-hormone, so don't be afraid to talk about what you have taken here. We need to know so we can better help you.

-GMG

[dotyfish]

I'm here to help, but first I need to know what Gaspari product you were taking. If it was Halodrol-50 (and you somehow still had a box of the stuff from 4 years ago or so) you might be ok with just the Formadrol as PCT, but it depends on the dosing. You say you gained 13 lbs, but 4% bodyfat... that makes me think most of your gains were bodyfat... so it might not be the hdrol prohormone, and is more than likely one of the new versions of Halodrol either the MT or the liquigels. Either one of those isn't really a big deal as far as the cycle goes, well at leas not nearly as serious as the old Halodrol 50.

If I were you though, I would naturally gain some weight before trying another pro-hormone cycle, even the trifecta. There are some much better ways to gain that early on weight and drop some of that bodyfat before you start messing around with hormonal products. Your weight/BF% tells me that you probably have just started training, or are not dieting/training correctly (not talking down to you, just speaking my mind, and if you would like any advice on your training or diet, I am here to help.).

SO - Here is the rule of thumb, with any hormonal cycle that requires PCT, is Time ON + PCT = Time off cycle.

So, if you take a 4 week cycle, and a 4 week PCT, you need to wait AT MINIMUM (I reccomend an extra month... i don't recommend cycling ANY MORE than 3 times a year AT MAX.) 8 weeks before your next cycle.

More than likely the formadrol will do the trick for your PCT, but I would say at least 8 weeks is a good rule of thumb to wait before you cycle the trifecta if you do decide to go that route.

I think you would have better success with Formadrol/ASGT/POSTAL for your next cycle, it will be very kind to your body, and you should make GREAT gains if your diet and training are in check.

Any other questions, please let me know.

BTW, please let us know what gaspari product you took (the exact one). I have taken halodrol liquigels and the Halodrol pro-hormone, so don't be afraid to talk about what you have taken here. We need to know so we can better help you.

-GMG

Thanks for the help. The Gaspari product was Halodrol MT. I wasn't too sure about etiquette since this is LG's section. You are on point about the diet and training.

I can give you a little personal history and see where we can go from there.

As far as diet goes, I've been taking a sort of laissez-faire approach. I pretty much eat when my body tells me, with only a basic pattern. Silly, I know, but my eating habits are getting better by the day. At 26, I'm just starting to eat veggies. I usually eat 6 - 7 times per day: Morning protein shake and fruit, a morning snack that is usually almonds, walnuts, a clif bar or beef jerky, lunch (sandwich on workdays), after-work meal/pre-workout meal (typically chicken and fast carbs), post-workout meal (usually protein shake with blueberries, sometimes a "normal" meal), possibly a snack (more nuts), then a casein shake before bed.

Due to my family structure, the meals after work are typically some sort of grandmotherly comfort food, though this will change in 2 months when I go off for graduate school. Daily protein intake is at least 200g; carbs and fat vary. I've tried food logs, but I've never kept it going past 5 days.

For training, I've been at it for almost 4 years. I've also worked in construction for the past 10 years, so I had some decent functional strength for my size, but I had a load of personal issues. At the time I began, I was down to 112lbs, skinny-fat (I estimate probably twice the BF% as now) and pretty much in a constant state of chemical-induced sickness, if you catch my drift. I had the choice to get right or die; no real need to consider my options. I jumped to 135lb quickly lifting 3 - 5 days a week and stayed at that weight for about 2 years. During that time, I started running and rock climbing and mountaineering. After recovering from a sprained ankle I got running, my training became almost entirely sport-specific and for the next year and a half, all I did was go to class and go climbing. After graduation in 2008, the game changed to doing nothing but rock climbing. I'm talking wake up at noon, go to the gym for a minimum of 4 hours, sometimes 8 or 9, go home and sleep and repeat 5-7 days a week, depending on how busy the company I work for was at the time. During the summer, climbing was an after construction thing, but any other time it was "Climb On". Any other training focused on shoulders or core.

It was over this time that I slowly gained to about 140. Around April of last year, I got hit with tendonitis in my wrist that was apparently a result of over-training, so I took some time off climbing and focused on strengthening my arms (which have always seemed small in comparison to the rest of my body) and shoulders. I tried Cellucor's P6 Black, M5 and R3 and went up to 148, then slowly down to 145 at around 13% BF.

After I felt I was healed, I started climbing again and threw in resistance training (lots of body weight and dumbbell workouts, weighted pull ups, that type of thing).

In December, construction work got to the point I had to get a pretty lame desk job and I never really adjusted calorie intake to help combat the inactivity.

All was good until February 28th of this year. Sprained my ankle again (same one as when I was running) while climbing. I fell from about 5 feet up on a hard problem and landed in a way that part of my leg and my foot was under my butt and lower back. Luckily, I didn't mess my knee up, but the ankle was pretty bad off. Between the pain, swelling and meds, I didn't really do much at all for all of March and the first week or so of April.

Since mid-April, I've been on a modified P90X routine. Due in part to where I live and work out (in an attic with a low ceiling) and the strength of the ankle, I haven't done the plyometrics and started the leg/back a few weeks after the rest of it. Most of the focus has been on getting through the hour long workouts without taking breaks, since endurance has always been my weakest area. On days that I go through the entire workout without any extra breaks, I do abs, but if I can't finish it straight through, I'll skip abs.

Originally, I had purchased the trifecta stack, but as soon as I found out about Natadrol, I decided to give that a try to get my strength back on par with what it was before my injury. With my previous sprain and tendonitis, I used USP's Super Cissus and felt that it worked pretty well, so given that Natadrol has cissus it seemed like a good choice for regaining muscular strength while taking care of my other tissue as well. It seems to have done the trick while helping shoot up my endurance. Also, BF% and H20% seem to be normalizing. They are almost back to what they were before the Halodrol. Weight is still in the mid-150s.

I started the Formadrol on Saturday, following the Natabolic Stack suggestion of 4 per day for 2 weeks, spaced out as evenly as possible. So far, so good. After the 2 weeks, I think the box says a week of 3 per day and a week of 2 per day. Didn't sleep well last night, but I don't think that had anything to do with the Formadrol.

Since I'm about to move across the country, it makes even more sense to wait on the trifecta, so I'm going to take your advice and work on fine tuning my diet and training and see if I can make some good gains first. Otherwise, it seems like it would probably be a waste of good product.

I'm open to any and all suggestions. I aced my ISSA CFT exam, but as far as I'm concerned, tests and book knowledge only go so far. From what I can tell by looking around the forums, you all seem to have a grasp on this sort of information that can only come from the most important kind of learning - experience.

That said, thanks again GMG, and thank you to anyone else who helps me or anyone else on these forums.

[dotyfish]

Today is the last day of week 2 of Formadrol, 4 per day. No side effects. I will be going to 3 per day tomorrow. I did notice that during the first few days of Formadrol, definition seemed to lack compared to during Natadrol, however that has passed and I am now back to looking more defined then I did pre-Natadrol. Strength seems about on par with the end of Natadrol. I've had rep / weight gains, but nothing like on Natadrol. My weight is down to 150lbs and my BF & H2O %s are nearly back to what they were prior to Halodrol MT. That still leaves me about 7 lbs heavier, with a similar BF. Simple estimates (complete with rounding) give me an approximate 1 lb BF gain, with a 6lb lean mass gain. All in all, not too shabby for eating a crappy diet.

[dotyfish]

Weight and strength about the same, no significant differences. Took the weekend off training for my birthday. Resume tonight

[dotyfish]

A little bit of "unripe" acne . . . more like bumpy skin. Pretty sure that Formadrol is not the cause, but I figured I'd log it anyway. It has been in the 90s and very humid here; I'm sure that is the main culprit. Doesn't help that I live in an attic without AC

[andymo]

I agree with you dotyfish weight and strength are about the same without any differences, otherwise happy birthday.

[dotyfish]

It's been a week since I finished the formadrol. It's been a crazy one with limited workouts due to a 60 hour work week and traveling, but I'll do a final update in a week or two to see how the strength gains stuck.

[GMG760]

It's been a week since I finished the formadrol. It's been a crazy one with limited workouts due to a 60 hour work week and traveling, but I'll do a final update in a week or two to see how the strength gains stuck.

Look forward to hearing your review!

[dotyfish]

Final review

I miss it.

Is that enough of a review?

Weighing in at 151.6 lbs, 16.0% BF. From the start of Natadrol, that's a 4.8 lb drop with 4.834 less BF. Not bad, if I say so. In regards to before both Natadrol and the Halodrol MT, I was 143.5 lbs with 14.6% BF before, which gives me an 8.1 lb gain, 1.94 of which was BF (approximately 25% of the total gain). All in all, I don't think that's too bad, considering my diet was crap and my workouts focused largely on endurance.

Speaking of endurance, much of it (at least with the higher weights) seems to have faded away, though it is still significantly better than beforehand. I think I'm going to attribute that to the increase in recovery speed experience with Natadrol. Strength and power set gains have pretty much stayed the same.

I will be purchasing this again, but likely not for a while. Once I move and get diet and training on point, I'm going to try to make as many gains as possible before giving the trifecta stack that's been in my cabinet for 8 months a try and go from there.

Speaking of which, LG reps - I have no clue what the expiration date on my trifecta stack is, but I assume that like drugs, the efficacy goes down after a certain period of time. In the event that I don't get to it until it the expiration comes around, what sort of time frame am I looking at before the compounds degrade?

Also for the reps or anyone else - As far as natural gains before trifecta, what's good? I know it is important to teach my body to grow as much as I can beforehand; should I wait until I start plateau frequently (with periodized training schedules)? Also, GMG mentioned cutting BF beforehand - I'm hoping that after I move, the elimination of my grandmother's comfort food and a much more mindful diet will help significantly, but is there a sort of BF/response curve in which the more lean I am beforehand, the better gains I'll get? If so, and even if not, is there a recommendation out there from anyone?

Finally, since I miss the feeling of increased muscle density, what is the best way to train to make improvements in that department?

[GMG760]

Final review

I miss it.

Is that enough of a review?

Weighing in at 151.6 lbs, 16.0% BF. From the start of Natadrol, that's a 4.8 lb drop with 4.834 less BF. Not bad, if I say so. In regards to before both Natadrol and the Halodrol MT, I was 143.5 lbs with 14.6% BF before, which gives me an 8.1 lb gain, 1.94 of which was BF (approximately 25% of the total gain). All in all, I don't think that's too bad, considering my diet was crap and my workouts focused largely on endurance.

Speaking of endurance, much of it (at least with the higher weights) seems to have faded away, though it is still significantly better than beforehand. I think I'm going to attribute that to the increase in recovery speed experience with Natadrol. Strength and power set gains have pretty much stayed the same.

I will be purchasing this again, but likely not for a while. Once I move and get diet and training on point, I'm going to try to make as many gains as possible before giving the trifecta stack that's been in my cabinet for 8 months a try and go from there.

Speaking of which, LG reps - I have no clue what the expiration date on my trifecta stack is, but I assume that like drugs, the efficacy goes down after a certain period of time. In the event that I don't get to it until it the expiration comes around, what sort of time frame am I looking at before the compounds degrade?

Also for the reps or anyone else - As far as natural gains before trifecta, what's good? I know it is important to teach my body to grow as much as I can beforehand; should I wait until I start plateau frequently (with periodized training schedules)? Also, GMG mentioned cutting BF beforehand - I'm hoping that after I move, the elimination of my grandmother's comfort food and a much more mindful diet will help significantly, but is there a sort of BF/response curve in which the more lean I am beforehand, the better gains I'll get? If so, and even if not, is there a recommendation out there from anyone?

Finally, since I miss the feeling of increased muscle density, what is the best way to train to make improvements in that department?

1. The Trifecta should be good for a year or two past the expiration date assuming it is being stored in a cool and dark place.
2. I would start a training routine that you have never done before, like DC or Kleen's Warrior workout and see if your body doesn't take to the new workouts and blow up. Otherwise, wait a few months and hit up that trifecta. I would say that once you are ready to eat right and train solidly, you could go for the trifecta. I'd honestly say to cut down to <12% bf to notice the best results from pro-hormones.
3. If you want muscle density, train with higher reps and emphasize the contraction as much as you can. You aren't going to notice muscle density as much at high bodyfat than at low amounts.

[dotyfish]

Awesome. Thanks a million, man

[saggy321]

What is Kleen's warrior workout?

[GMG760]

What is Kleen's warrior workout?

It's a 3x a week full body workout. The head LG rep around here, Mr. Kleen devised it himself. You'll have to get him to send it to you if you want it, it isn't mine to give out.

[saggy321]

Mr Kleen,

Can you do the honours please sir. Currently on trifecta and will go straight onto natadrol. Need a new workout for my continued recomp.

[GMG760]

Mr Kleen,

Can you do the honours please sir. Currently on trifecta and will go straight onto natadrol. Need a new workout for my continued recomp.

LOL... you are gonna have to PM him for it I am pretty sure.

[dotyfish]

1. The Trifecta should be good for a year or two past the expiration date assuming it is being stored in a cool and dark place.
2. I would start a training routine that you have never done before, like DC or Kleen's Warrior workout and see if your body doesn't take to the new workouts and blow up. Otherwise, wait a few months and hit up that trifecta. I would say that once you are ready to eat right and train solidly, you could go for the trifecta. I'd honestly say to cut down to <12% bf to notice the best results from pro-hormones.
3. If you want muscle density, train with higher reps and emphasize the contraction as much as you can. You aren't going to notice muscle density as much at high bodyfat than at low amounts.

Thanks again GMG. I PMed Mr. Kleen and am looking forward to his response. The place I'm moving to has a decent gym and I am quite excited for new workouts in locations that aren't sweltering attics. I won't have much more than class, climbing and training on my plate, so I look forward to making significant progress.

[MrKleen73]

I hope you like the workout it is a beast. If you want to build muscle and lose fat it is SICK!

[reecew]

What is this Kleens warrior workout? Im always looking into new and better routines, would be interested in seeing some info on this.

[dotyfish]

I hope you like the workout it is a beast. If you want to build muscle and lose fat it is SICK!

I'll be starting as soon as I get situated in Cali and figure out what sort of schedule I'll be working with. What exactly is a T-Cup?