Blood Work While on the Evolution Stack

[fishman197]

This is my first post. I've been reading this board for almost a year now, and finally have some questions I cannot find complete answers to. On a side note, I've found this board very informative.

Background
Brief background, lifting for ~10 years. 5'7" 195 ~15% bodyfat.

Past compounds
Did one short cycle of Superdrol and another of Halodrol. Started a cycle of Mega-TRN, but didn't find the compound effective for me.

Have not taken any of these compound for over 3 months.

I've been on a recomp/cutting cycle for amost 4 months, after heavy weight gains due to superdrol.

As part of my recomp cycle, I decided to explore the ALRI Evolution stack.

Effectiveness
I've found the compounds "fairly" effective in maintaining good body weight, as I was on a quasi restricted caloric diet.

Employment of Evolution Stack
I did the andvanced stack: JW w/ 2 week overlap of BAM, and then BAM restore overlapped for 2 weeks, followed by restore only for two weeks. I am in my last week of the cycle, and as such, am currently only on restore.

Sides
I noticed pronounced mood-changes when adding and switching compounds, ie. the overlap of the supplements. These mood changes included lethargy and a general feeling of dysphoria for several days followed by elevated mood for the remainder of the cycle portion, until I switched compounds again. On a side note, I did notice decreased libido while on JW, which is usually dependent to the individual.

Okay, so I got my blood work in this week as part of preperation for upcoming events.

Everything was okay except the following:

Bloodwork
My TSH was elevated at 6.539
My T3 uptake was elevated at 40
My red blood cell count was slighly elevated at 5.66 (Normal 5.6)
And my HDL was the lowest it had been, except on superdrol or halodrol I imagine, at 30.

These are my thoughts on my bloodwork, and would appreciate any feedback/redirection.

The HDL was low due to the AI effect of restore, and possibly jungle warefare, even though I discontinued JW ~2 weeks prior.

My TSH was elevated due to Restore as well as my T3 uptake. These levels concerned me for a second, except when I realized they were dichotimous, both being high would not be indicative of hypo or hyper thyroidism (Correct me if I am wrong), so the elevated TSH is telling my thyroid to produce more T4, and such T3, which means my thyroid is in the kick ass and take names mode. (Again, correct me if I am wrong). However, my T4 levels were within the normal range, interesting?

I'm also not certain what would be causing my slighly elevated red blood cell count, so if anyone can enlighten me, it would be greatly appreciated.

The only other supps I am taking are sesamin, fishoil, Vit E, and Vit C.

Any thoughts on this bloodwork would be greatly appreciated, and I hope the bloodwork helps provide an understanding of the actual effect of this stack.

Thanks
Fishman197

 

[FitnFirm]

Well None of the ALRI reps are doctors to interpret lab results, so I will send this to the man himself to see what he has to offer you in the form of explanations. But he will want your actual labwork documents for before your cycle and after you cycle. Can you fax them ? I will provide you with the number when you answer.

 

[fishman197]

reply

I sent a PM, but never got a response. I realize the questions I asked in the prior posts may have been somewhat convoluted.

Therefore, in regards to the thyroid effects restore has, this is what the write-up says:

MbAET
”Unless you went coma bound in the early 90’s you have been aware of the on going benefits reaped and progress made with DHEA and its even better metabolites. As an example are the patented and effective products 7-OXO-DHEA and of course 7-Hydroxy-DHEA analogs. Since these analogs prevent conversion into androgenic metabolites they have been touted by many as the best thing since pizza. Considering the lack of androgenic side effects possible while promoting fat loss, lean mass retention and even maximizing thyroid gland activity, not a real surprise they have become very popular. Of course oral bioavalability is pretty poor with most of these analogs thus requiring higher dosages.
Likely the most powerful and effective DHEA analog is b-AET (beta-androstenetriol). It has been shown in studies to be between 100 and 100,000 times more active than its DHEA precursor metabolites. However, like most DHEA analogs there is the issue of poor oral bioavailability. By supporting the delivery value through simple alkylation, MbAET is nearly 100% orally bioavailable and only takes a few milligrams to do its job.”

Based on this explanations, are my TSH and T3 are what would be expected (both high)?

In regards to HDL effects, it is common knowledge almost all (if not all) AIs have a negative effect on HDL. Therefore, is my lowered HDL expected from the use of the Evolution Stack? I have read many other posts on many other forums, which also consisted of low HDL lab results as a result of JW and or BAM/Restore.

In regards to my blood work, I do not have blood work pre Evolution stack cycle. Why? There is a simple answer; because it is supposed to be a safe supplement. I didn’t realize pre and post blood work would be necessary as it is with AAS. If I would have… I guess I would have gone with the AAS, as the cost benefit ratio would have been greater.
To solve the problem of not having pre Evolution stack cycle blood work, I can attest I have never had high TSH levels, or this low of HDL levels, on any prior lab results, and I have many prior lab results. In addition, I will also get blood work in the future, most likely within the next month to compare with this blood work. I can then use a simple statistical test (.05 alpha level) to determine if there is significance between all other blood work and this blood work. At that time, I can post my blood work results and receipt for the purchase of the supplements. Alternatively, to save myself from this extra work, which I am not against doing, someone could tell me if these lab results would be expected from the evolution stack.


Fishman197

 

[supersoldier]

5.66 RBC is not really high at all.

I don't know if you know me, but I've worked in a lab for 4 years and have done bloodwork whilst on many an anabolic compound. IMO an AI alone should not lower HDL too much, but we don't know what your HDL was when you started the whole cycle. Surely the results you posted weren't the only labs you had done. Could you post the entire list with all of the values to get a bigger picture?

 

[fishman197]

reply to Supersoldier

Supersoldier,

First off, thanks for the help!

I do have some previous blood work. I had blood work taken 2.5 months post a 4-week Superdrol cycle. My HDL level was 37 and LDL was 101. There were no other abnormal findings on this blood work.

I also had blood work taken prior to taking any “supplements.” All findings were within the normal range. My HDL was 47 and LDL 97. My TSH was 2.021; unfortunately, this is the only blood work I have with TSH levels.

I have never taken T3, T4, or any such substances. I have never taken any Nandrolone type substances, or for that matter, any elicit AAS.

On this most recent blood work, my total test was 481 and free test was 24.7.

The only abnormal findings were the RBC of 5.66, which is barely high and you say an okay level; therefore, I am not concerned about the RBC. Thanks!

My HDL 30 and LDL 106. I have been reading posts (on other boards) relating to post JW blood work. It seems many individuals have lowered HDL based on JW. I did the whole Evolution stack; therefore, if the JW lowered my HDL, the restore could have lowered it some more (just a thought). In addition, I have not seen any blood work on BAM, so who knows how this affects lipid profiles. Is it possible that the three compounds lowered my HDL 7 points (37 as lowest baseline)? I am not sure, what are your thoughts?

Confusing me more is the TSH level of 6.539. That is really high, which would be indicative of hypo thyroidism. Oddly enough, my T3 Uptake was 40, which is high (is T3 uptake an actual indicator of actual T3 levels? I could not find an answer on this). My T4 level was 6.3, which is normal. After researching this dichotomy further, such findings would be diagnosed “sub-clinical” hypo thyroidism.

I will provide any further information to help understand this blood work, if there is other information you need.

Again, I really appreciate the help Supersoldier!

Fishman197

 

[fishman197]

Actual Blood Work

Supersoldier,

Attached is the actual lab results from the most recent blood work.

Fishman197

 

[FitnFirm]

Supersoldier,

Attached is the actual lab results from the most recent blood work.

Fishman197

Why did you scratch out the date?

 

[FitnFirm]

Confusing me more is the TSH level of 6.539. That is really high, which would be indicative of hypo thyroidism. Oddly enough, my T3 Uptake was 40, which is high (is T3 uptake an actual indicator of actual T3 levels? I could not find an answer on this). My T4 level was 6.3, which is normal. After researching this dichotomy further, such findings would be diagnosed “sub-clinical” hypo thyroidism.


Fishman197

Your TSH at 6.539 is not HIGH, HIGH would be what I had at 90 !!!!!!! lol. Each lab is different but that is not really anything they would even prescribe meds for. I have hypothyroidism and compared to your numbers, you are just above that labs values for thyroid testing. Regardless I have saved your labs from your post and I am sending them to ALR. I cannot promise when I will hear back from him though, I will do my best !

It doesnt help that you did not have earlier thyroid labs to compare to, you could have had off numbers for years and not known it. Thyroid disease is the most under diagnosed disease.

 

[FitnFirm]

To Fisherman197

ALR's answers are in BOLD, Your questions are in ITALIC




Bloodwork
My TSH was elevated at 6.539
My T3 uptake was elevated at 40
My red blood cell count was slighly elevated at 5.66 (Normal 5.6)
And my HDL was the lowest it had been, except on superdrol or halodrol I imagine, at 30.

These are my thoughts on my bloodwork, and would appreciate any feedback/redirection.

The HDL was low due to the AI effect of restore, and possibly jungle warefare, even though I discontinued JW ~2 weeks prior.

Anytime hormone profiles are altered it affects the ratio and utilization of cholesterol. To what extent depends upon compounds used, duration and of course the individules diet. It would be a huge undertaking to try to explain your personal results from use or in comparison to AAS (All androgens technically are classified as anabolic androgenic steroids...though IMO they should not be) which have been alkylated as a 17a analog. (Makes the liver work harder but also alters cholesterol rations and levels for months at times). And near impossible without knowing prior blood test results or true diet. So please understand that I will not just guess in some clever worded format. Fair?

A point to consider is that a 7 point drop is not amazing based upon many possible stimulus. That you were at 37 at a prior point shows you likely started having cholesterol issues before using the Evo stack and should keep an eye on this anytime HDL is under 43. However, it is certainly possible that with the use of any product that alters hormone profiles one can experience cholesterol changes that certainly are not permanent. So yes, I can say it is possible. Remember that all actions have reactions to consider. The degree is the most important issue in most cases.


My TSH was elevated due to Restore as well as my T3 uptake. These levels concerned me for a second, except when I realized they were dichotimous, both being high would not be indicative of hypo or hyper thyroidism (Correct me if I am wrong), so the elevated TSH is telling my thyroid to produce more T4, and such T3, which means my thyroid is in the kick ass and take names mode. (Again, correct me if I am wrong). However, my T4 levels were within the normal range, interesting?

No issue here except validation that the product works. The increase in T-3 without an increase in T-4 is simply efficient liver conversion.


I'm also not certain what would be causing my slighly elevated red blood cell count, so if anyone can enlighten me, it would be greatly appreciated.

Of course possible from prior AAS use but again, please remember that increased androgen profiles will result in increased RBC counts. Make sense?

The only other supps I am taking are sesamin, fishoil, Vit E, and Vit C.

Red rice yeast should be added as some studies have shown an increase in HDL of 20% with a significant decrease in LDL. Another item would be flax seed and olive oils just for good cardiovascular health.

 

[fishman197]

Reply

Fitnfirm,

You answered all of my questions.

1) Could this stack have contributed or be associated with my lowered HDL? I know it is impossible to say this stack caused my lowered HDL, as there are too many confounding variables. However, it could have contributed is a perfectly fair answer. Thanks.

2) Could my raised RBC be associated with this stack? Again, your team’s response is perfectly fair.

3) In regards to TSH and T3 levels, it appears the product is working as intended, and doing an outstanding job.

I think my initial post was possibly taken in a flippant manner. I was not complaining nor implying this stack is harmful. I was simply trying to understand if my blood work could be associated with this stack. I can live with slightly lowered HDL for the last few weeks of the stack. It appears its capacity to influence the thyroid is outstanding. Finally, the RBC is not really high at all (thanks supersoldier).

It seems your product works as intended and has minimal side effects. The only pronounced side effects I would note are mood changes. These supplements influenced my mood moderately. I noticed a ramped up feeling, while taking the Restore. I am assuming this feeling is due to the stimulation of the thyroid. Once I discontinued the stack, I crashed for several days and was somewhat dysphoric. I was exhausted. Again, I must consider confounding variables, but I will say it appeared beyond a normal state of exhaustion. However, after a few days, I was pretty much back to normal.

The only point I disagree with, is the prescription of meds for thyroid levels. The majority, if not all, of the articles I read said doctors would be concerned with such an elevated TSH level. In fact, in so far as they would prescribe meds to some patients who are only in the high range, not exceeding the range, as I was. This is also the impression I was given after talking with professionals in the medical field. So, agree to disagree?

Thanks for answering my questions. I do appreciate it! In the end, your customer support i.e. feedback, was excellent.

Thanks,
Fishman197

 

[fishman197]

Reply to covering date

Fitnfirm,

I covered all of the top information on the form quickly to ensure I maintained anonymity. If you want me to resend the form, with the date not scratched out, I will. I didn't do this deliberately though, trying to trick ALRI.

Fishman197

 

[FitnFirm]

The only point I disagree with, is the prescription of meds for thyroid levels. The majority, if not all, of the articles I read said doctors would be concerned with such an elevated TSH level. In fact, in so far as they would prescribe meds to some patients who are only in the high range, not exceeding the range, as I was. This is also the impression I was given after talking with professionals in the medical field. So, agree to disagree?

Thanks for answering my questions. I do appreciate it! In the end, your customer support i.e. feedback, was excellent.

Thanks,
Fishman197

Actually, I do disagree , I have had hypothyroidism for 14 years and have been all over the map with it. I have learned alot about how it effects an individual and exactly what to expect when meds are increased or decreased and even how to tweak it myself.

At most with your values, they would have you re-tested in a month to 6 months to re-evaluate and then if it was higher, as it should be ( TSH ) if you were hypothyroid they would start you on a low dose of T-4. It is much less common in men as well, esp at your age. Most men may experience these levels during puberty.

It is also possible that your cortisol level was too low, this can throw off the thyroid levels as well. You should request the cortisol test next time.

I think anything that increases metabolism such as a stimulant can have a small effect on the thyroid as well.

Most doctors do not have that much experience when it comes to Endocrinology either. If you are concerned I would see a Endochronologist. Im sure they would not prescribe any meds on your current levels, they would probably run a antibody screen as well and re-check at 30 day intervals to follow your levels to see a pattern.

Ive lived it, I didnt learn this by reading.

Anyway, I hope the answers provided are acceptable and hope your levels are normal next time just so you dont lose any sleep over them. Please keep us updated as well.

 

[size]

First off, what sort of results did you get from the stack?
Secondly, do you plan on getting blood work again in say 6 weeks to see where you are? I would like to see where your test levels will lie after stopping the restore.

Good information provided.

 

[fishman197]

Reply to Size

Size,

I do plan to get blood work within the next month or two. However, I will not be getting test levels checked for a while. When I get the blood work, I will follow up by posting my TSH, T3, and HDL levels. This should give a good comparison with my previous posted blood work. When I do eventually get my test levels measured, I will post those results also; it just may be a while.

Results:

I did not get any strength gains on this cut/recomp Evolution cycle. However, I was able to maintain “most” of my strength while decreasing BF%; I still did lose some strength though. I experienced frequent fairly dramatic shifts in mood, as I added and changed compounds as part of the recommended cycle. Sometimes I was dismal, sometimes I felt fairly well. I did notice an increase of anxiety symptoms, while on Restore. Based on my occupation, I would say my assessment of mood symptoms/changes are valid, as this is my one area of expertise. I noticed a significant increase in acne once I discontinued the stack-VERY significant. I also noticed a pronounced decrease in mood upon discontinuing the stack. I had some joint troubles towards the last half of the stack, mostly in my elbows. It was kind of a general soreness when performing lifts.

Honestly, I would be lying if I said this stack provided me anything significant beyond what I would have been capable of obtaining without the supplements. Because I ‘believe’ these compounds are associated with my lowered HDL, I again see no reason I would add them to a training regime in the future. Noting the blood work, my total test and free test were not increased significantly, at least significantly enough to make any real difference. Maybe these compounds will work well for others and or maybe I didn’t respond so well? I guess they can make an educated decision when considering these products for themselves. For me though, BAM is not bad ass... Hopefully, my future blood work will provide more evidence on the effectiveness of this stack, without forgetting the law of small numbers.

Fishman197

 

[Outside Backer]

what are the normal numbers ? did u have your natural test levels checked?

 

[fishman197]

Reply

About those levels. It will be a while, but when I have them checked again I'll post them.

Fishman197

 

[fishman197]

Reply

For me anyway, the thyroid effects were by far the most pronounced.

Fishman197

 

[size]

Because I ‘believe’ these compounds are associated with my lowered HDL, I again see no reason I would add them to a training regime in the future. Noting the blood work, my total test and free test were not increased significantly, at least significantly enough to make any real difference.

I think your feedback is appreciated as I think it is good to get information from all sides so a consumer can make a more informed choice. While the majority of feedback has been positive, it is interesting to see someone feel differently.

In regards to your test levels, I am slightly surprised that they are not higher, but without knowing where they were initially makes it difficult to truly judge this. This is why I will be particularly interesting in seeing where they lie in the future.