[datBtrue]

Thread Index: [ POST #1 ]

Originally Posted by poopypants

this had to be the most important thing I read in this study not stated in any other Ive read thus far... def gonna give this a go.

Its like this Poopy. When we are growing childen our pituitary at times undergoes great secretory bursts of GH. These bursts much higher than a high bodybuilding dose can release huge amounts of GH into our system.

This pituitary capability never really goes away.

A lot of people are under the misconception that when we say a 20-something year old is secreting "youthful" levels of GH that will naturally diminish over time that some how the youth is tapped out. People think he is at the top of his capacity and so the ONLY way to get more GH into his system is to administer synthetic GH externally.

Thats not true.

GH is a subtle hormone in the young because they haven't missed it yet. Older people on-the-other hand have missed it and so a little increase goes a long way in exciting the "wow" factor for them.

Its not just GHRH (CJC-1295) Poopy. The young benefit from the Growth Hormone Releasing Peptides as well. These peptides (these Ghrelin-mimetics) can amplify GH pulses and effect GH release such that they will contribute to the loss of visceral fat over time or the strengthening of connective tissue.

But GHRPs have additional benefits in older people who have already begun to experience less then optimal GH signaling. GHRPs for them will decrease the inhibitor somatostatin's influence and strengthen a weakened "signal" to release the positive hormone GHRH.

Still they do have direct actions of their own and the studies demonstrate substantial GH release as a result of the administration of GHRPs to people of all ages.

Thats why if GHRP-induced GH release was the fuel for a race car you as a young man would speed down the track but to your right you might find a beat up older model keeping pace.

Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH, the long-lasting analog CJC-1295) & Growth Hormone Releasing Peptides (GHRP-6, GHRP-2, Hexarelin, Ipamorelin) are tools that enable the pituitary to increase the amount of GH it is currently secreting no matter what the age.

[poopypants]

Originally Posted by datBtrue

Does anybody have a hard copy of the following book that they can look at?

Attachment 22558

Amino Acids and Proteins for the Athlete: The Anabolic Edge, Second Edition (Nutrition in Exercise & Sport)
by Mauro G. Di Pasquale

If so could you post the source for footnote 155 in the following snippet which appears on page 30.
[EDIT NOTE: I found it. The source is Baumann G., Growth hormone heterogeneity: genes, isohormones, variants, and binding proteins. Endocr Rev 1991;12:424–49]

Attachment 22559

Wow! That is such an interesting statement. I want to look into that. IF that is true then unit for unit natural GH production is superior to exogenic GH. Wow!

So if exogenic GH is of the type "monomeric 22-kDa" then of what types are natural endogenic pituitary produced GH?

"At least 53% of hGH eluted as little (monomeric) hGH, 27% as big (dimeric) hGH, and 20% or less as big-big (oligomeric and spurious) hGH during gel filtration.

Among the monomeric forms, the 22,000-dalton form was predominant (83%), with smaller quantities of the 20,000-dalton variant (11%), and one or more unidentified acidic forms (N alpha-acetylated, deamidated, or cleaved hGH) (6%) also present." - Circulating growth hormone forms after stimulation of pituitary secretion with growth hormone-releasing factor in man, MW Stolar, G Baumann, ML Vance and MO Thorner J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Aug 1984; 59: 235 - 239.

So exogenic administration of GH is NOT identical to endogenic naturally produced GH.

Dr. Di Pasquale brings up an interesting possibility. Although synthetic GH is certainly effective for its intended purpose, i.e. growth promotion, it is not known if it is sufficient for optimal growth.

Our bodies do use naturally produced GH (w/ its mixture of types) thoughout our childhood & into adult life to optimally grow. So clearly the GH that is released by the pituitary as a result of CJC & GHRP-6 is optimal for growth.

So the question becomes is synthetic GH inferior?

Alright Ive been researching this for a bit now and LMR finally turned me to this thread....

Let me say this has to be the most comprehensive read on the subject Ive found thus far and MUCH more then I had even hoped for, Thanks for taking all the time to put this together as it will prove to be a great help in my future endeavors....

I chose to quote thise exact post just casue I think its so damn impressive that you are so extensive in your searches for more info that in the end brings to light for all of us that what we are dealing with is far superior and safer then dabbling with exogenous sources and has basically quelled all my fears of giving this a go, in fact I cant wait to start!

So after all this praise can I have you answer one specific question, sorry if its been asked but ive only read to the point of this post (page 4)

You stated that for the BB blast periods its good to have a lead in with a "theraputic" dose and then a bump for 3-4 weeks followed by a theraputic dose again.... I was wondering how long exactly would you suggest that theraputic dose be maintained and can it be done with only the GHRP-6 dosed nightly as its by far the cheaper compound and then combined with the CJC to start the blast period then back down to the GHRP-6 only?

My proposed plan would be 100mcg GHRP-6 nightly for 1-2 weeks followed by CJC/GHRP-6 @ 85/100, 0/100, 85/200 for my three daily doses(morn, post and night) for 3 weeks(along with most likely Epi) and then back to 100mcg nightly of GHRP through PCT....

would this be enough lead in time and highe enough saturation during the blast to feasibly bring the BB effects Im looking for or is it just wishful thinking for a 24 year old guy @ 185? (been up to 202 in the past 9 months but higher bf then now).

[datBtrue]

Well the "blast" of GH or burst usage is something that is kind of known in the narrow bodybuilding community and is becoming more widely talked about.

So all I am doing is replacing synthetic GH with CJC/GHRP-6 to get my internally generated levels up.

Everything else can be borrowed from what is already known about GH, testosterone and insulin. This stuff is tried and true with a few variations.

On page 6 in post #166 I have a post about "Insulin & Growth Hormone = Synergy" and in the followup #167 I discuss my current cycle.

I am in week 5 now and I don't want to be much bigger at the moment. I have satisified myself that THAT protocol will grow a lot of tissue. I am going to keep the protocol as is (minus T3) for a few more weeks and lower the CJC-1295 dosage and see how that goes just because I want to know.

Your proposal is worth trying for sure. I do know that I grew well on just 100mcg of CJC at night (700mcg total for the week) & the 3 spots of GHRP-6 daily.

After all of this I really think that anti-aging guys could hit their sweet spot with just 100mcg of CJC-1295 dosed twice a week (200mcg total) and GHRP-6 every night & if they can during the day here and there throughout the week.

Thats it...that means 2mg of CJC-1295 would last them 10 weeks. I know this doesn't apply to you but my point is that a little CJC-1295 goes a long way.

The limitations of your protocol are the lack of insulin, testosterone & time. Other than that your CJC dose is fine.

Thank you for highlighting that post on natural vs synthetic GH.

I've been reading as much as I can tonight in that area. I was hoping to find some answers (on the diabetogenic effect) explained simply by GH fragmention BUT that turned out to be a dead end and it turns out Bobaslaw (SuperSeeker) is on the right path (and ahead of me) in trying to focus on the area where a likely explanation is to be found.

[poopypants]

Originally Posted by datBtrue

Well the "blast" of GH or burst usage is something that is kind of known in the narrow bodybuilding community and is becoming more widely talked about.

So all I am doing is replacing synthetic GH with CJC/GHRP-6 to get my internally generated levels up.

Everything else can be borrowed from what is already known about GH, testosterone and insulin. This stuff is tried and true with a few variations.

On page 6 in post #166 I have a post about "Insulin & Growth Hormone = Synergy" and in the followup #167 I discuss my current cycle.

I am in week 5 now and I don't want to be much bigger at the moment. I have satisified myself that THAT protocol will grow a lot of tissue. I am going to keep the protocol as is (minus T3) for a few more weeks and lower the CJC-1295 dosage and see how that goes just because I want to know.

Your proposal is worth trying for sure. I do know that I grew well on just 100mcg of CJC at night (700mcg total for the week) & the 3 spots of GHRP-6 daily.

After all of this I really think that anti-aging guys could hit their sweet spot with just 100mcg of CJC-1295 dosed twice a week (200mcg total) and GHRP-6 every night & if they can during the day here and there throughout the week.

Thats it...that means 2mg of CJC-1295 would last them 10 weeks. I know this doesn't apply to you but my point is that a little CJC-1295 goes a long way.

The limitations of your protocol are the lack of insulin, testosterone & time. Other than that your CJC dose is fine.

Thank you for highlighting that post on natural vs synthetic GH.

I've been reading as much as I can tonight in that area. I was hoping to find some answers (on the diabetogenic effect) explained simply by GH fragmention BUT that turned out to be a dead end and it turns out Bobaslaw (SuperSeeker) is on the right path (and ahead of me) in trying to focus on the area where a likely explanation is to be found.

testosterone may not be an issue... if I can get ahold of more 4-AD.... If I only had to run CJC nightly @ 100mcg instead of twice daily @ 80mcg do you suppose I would still get a valued effect? if so I would be able to stretch out the duration for sure... and Ill check what you suggest on insulin above but basically if I were to supplement with IGF post workout in the muscles worked instead of my GHRP-6 dose do you think that it woud be incredibly more benificial or just a waste?

[wophood]

Originally Posted by poopypants

I were to supplement with IGF post workout in the muscles worked instead of my GHRP-6 dose do you think that it woud be incredibly more benificial or just a waste?

I had similar inquiries about this as well. Dat, when you mentioned the use of igf during a cjc+ghrp cycle, you said it would be somewhat inhibitory on gh levels. Although it would "insure chronically elevated igf-1 levels", would the benefits outweigh the cons?

Right now I'm trying to find some info on just how much igf use would decrease gh secretion. Nothing good thus far. but I'm workin on it.

[Screwtape]

Huperzine A (200mcg capsules) ordered!
It may also be worthwhile adding a source of choline or an acetylcholine precursor like DMAE, as well as extra Vitamin B5 to increase acetylcholine levels.
If that doesn't do it, then there is always Sarin gas

[SoCo4Fun]

Where did you order from?

[datBtrue]

Originally Posted by wophood

I had similar inquiries about this as well. Dat, when you mentioned the use of igf during a cjc+ghrp cycle, you said it would be somewhat inhibitory on gh levels. Although it would "insure chronically elevated igf-1 levels", would the benefits outweigh the cons?

Right now I'm trying to find some info on just how much igf use would decrease gh secretion. Nothing good thus far. but I'm workin on it.

I've kind of changed my opinion on IGF-1 by just looking at how it exerts an inhibitory effect.

With CJC-1295 (GHRH) around 24 hours a day exerting a positive influence (and elevating liver synthesized IGF-1) how much of an inhibitory effect would added IGF-1 have?

In the first 30 days there would probably some benefit.

I have a very very speculative theory that if the body makes its own IGF-1 (which includes various isoforms & binding proteins in ratios it can use for growth) at elevated levels (thanks to GH) then adding IGF-1 LR3 to this IGF cocktail will add to anabolism.

But as for myself I don't care about adding IGF-1 to a mix that includes CJC.

Where I might consider it is if I only dosed GHRP-6 3x per day (w/o CJC), synthetic IGF-1 LR3 might work well w/ GHRP-6. This is something I would SERIOUSLY consider doing.

I know LR3 is suppose to remain in circulation but I kinda think that dosing it multiple times a day everyday will help keep the right kind of levels up.

Just a bunch of thoughts I have never buttoned down with science so take it for what its worth...i.e. not much.

[datBtrue]

Originally Posted by poopypants

testosterone may not be an issue... if I can get ahold of more 4-AD.... If I only had to run CJC nightly @ 100mcg instead of effect?

I believe that duration of use is important to really benefit from higher GH levels.

It may not seem like it but I am a minimalist in that I like to use the minimal amount to get an effect and take notes.

I started out with just pGH (Gaba & Gabob) for several months and got a little bump in GH levels & great sleep. Did anything happen over night? NO. But three months later I realized I felt better, it was easier keeping my core tight & my connective tissue felt better.

So I replaced it with GHRP-6 (100mcg) just at night...then PWO & at night and I felt really good. This was a higher level of GH (not a chronic elevation of anything) but a couple of pulses. In fact I may have felt my best using just that because I had NO lethargy (of the type CJC & higher levels of GH can bring).

Adding in CJC at 100mcg at night for a while took things to another level because it insured that there was always sufficent GHRH around for the GHRP-6 to work with.

If money is a concern 100mcg at night is a good dosing scheme....four 2mg vials of CJC-1295 will last 3 months. GHRP-6 is inexpensive. Running that 3x a day will inhibit all the somatostatin you want. MUCH better then an AC-inhibitor plus act synergistically with CJC-1295.

Thats not a bad three month cycle right there. Then run whatever anabolic cycle you want (prohormone or whatever) and IF you have IGF-1 you could add it but do NOT replace GHRP-6 with it.

Forget insulin. I am NOT recommending that to anyone!

I don't get paid enough (zero dollars...it will always be zero dinero) to underwrite people's risks or hold their hand or check their blood glucose readings to ever advise insulin use.

Insulin is the devil ...stay away from it and just smoke pot instead.

[Screwtape]

Originally Posted by SoCo4Fun

Where did you order from?

iherb.com

[Screwtape]

Damn! Just got a customs note. They seized my GHRP6. In whatever country it is I live in, you either have to get a doctor's note for the seized substance or they destroy It after 30 days. I'm going to have a hard time convincing my doctor that It's to heal an injury (although I am getting over a genuine injury).
Feckin' stupid nanny state and It's stupid laws!!!

[poopypants]

Originally Posted by datBtrue

I believe that duration of use is important to really benefit from higher GH levels.

It may not seem like it but I am a minimalist in that I like to use the minimal amount to get an effect and take notes.

I started out with just pGH (Gaba & Gabob) for several months and got a little bump in GH levels & great sleep. Did anything happen over night? NO. But three months later I realized I felt better, it was easier keeping my core tight & my connective tissue felt better.

So I replaced it with GHRP-6 (100mcg) just at night...then PWO & at night and I felt really good. This was a higher level of GH (not a chronic elevation of anything) but a couple of pulses. In fact I may have felt my best using just that because I had NO lethargy (of the type CJC & higher levels of GH can bring).

Adding in CJC at 100mcg at night for a while took things to another level because it insured that there was always sufficent GHRH around for the GHRP-6 to work with.

If money is a concern 100mcg at night is a good dosing scheme....four 2mg vials of CJC-1295 will last 3 months. GHRP-6 is inexpensive. Running that 3x a day will inhibit all the somatostatin you want. MUCH better then an AC-inhibitor plus act synergistically with CJC-1295.

Thats not a bad three month cycle right there. Then run whatever anabolic cycle you want (prohormone or whatever) and IF you have IGF-1 you could add it but do NOT replace GHRP-6 with it.

Forget insulin. I am NOT recommending that to anyone!

I don't get paid enough (zero dollars...it will always be zero dinero) to underwrite people's risks or hold their hand or check their blood glucose readings to ever advise insulin use.

Insulin is the devil ...stay away from it and just smoke pot instead.

LOL thats too funny... Ive given up that past time for good so its no longer an option for appitite stimulation... Ill go get some grub on if I need that, its garunteed anywho so if it dont work I could always get my money back. But thats not an issue as long as I work out I have a naturally healthy appitite... LOL though since Im sure that reference held no seriousness.

I would stay clear of slin any how and am even hesitant of IGF-LR3 as I REALLY dont like going hypo with ALA AP and Pslin as it is, couldnt imagine the real deal (although dont know how it could get worse then missing my meal timing after taking any/all of the the above fasted and then going hypo).

GH use seems to be the easiest to control sides wise (regarding nutrient uptake/timing) and brings the most benifits Id desire wich is cellular mediation as Im limited to my cell count. like you said I can always run Anabolics after the fact to then graow those new cells into healthy swollen iron smashers. itll make for some almost first time like gains for a cycle, no?

I really figured it boiled down to a matter of time more then anything and I was just hoping that I could get away with a shorter period for reasons of cost but if I cant get the tissue growth desired with a cycle of that type then its a waste of time and money an Id be more then happy to spend the extra time it takes to get the new cells I desire.... this isnt a shortcut for me but a chance to surpass my genetic potential, I want to do it right.

I will likely take your advice, start with a week of 100mg GHRP @ night only, followed by an increase to 3x 100mg daily and start CJC in at 1mg for my first dose and then continue at a nightly dose of 100mg thereafter so I can build on that intitial high halflife and be ever elevating that baseline GHRH level across 3 months.

I COULD do the math but maybe you have a formula that can figure it out quicker (your charts thus far have been great)... if one were to dose at 1mg starting and then a 100mg a night with the 10% degridation daily would there not be a point in time where the fall off would be the same as the input and a constant serum level would be obtianed? or WOULD it continue to increase with every dose adding faster then falling off? would that be ~100 days, 1000days? cant think right now its too latebut there has to be a point where 10% of the current levels is falling off at an equal amount of 100mg inputed right?? or is it an exponetially increasing dose that cant be caught by fall off?? like I said I cant think right now and not even sure if this makes sense... been awake too long and had my kid at the fair all day in 108 degree heat @ mid day..

I return tomorrow.