Nutrient Partitioning War: Slin, IGF-1 LR3, Anabolic Pump/P-slin - AnabolicMinds.com

Nutrient Partitioning War: Slin, IGF-1 LR3, Anabolic Pump/P-slin

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    Nutrient Partitioning War: Slin, IGF-1 LR3, Anabolic Pump/P-slin


    I'd like to discuss the partitioning effects of said compounds / hormones.

    IGF-1 is said to be like insulin-like in it's structure and ability to partition nutrients. How strong of an insulin-like effect does it exert? Furthermore, if it's being substituted for diabetic patients in place of insulin, why would it not be superior? Is this because it's safer?

    What would be the best way to run IGF-1 if one were looking to benefit from it's partitioning abilities. Asume one had a day were one consumed many carbs. Could one use a large dose at the begining of the day and benefit from the 8-12 hour half life while nutrients are shuttled efficiently to empty liver and muscle glycogen stores.


    While taking IGF-1, would it be redundant or useless to also use AP/p-slin for the same reasons?

    Thoughts? Opinions? Studies? Insight? Tripknowledge?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CryingEmo View Post
    I'd like to discuss the partitioning effects of said compounds / hormones.

    IGF-1 is said to be like insulin-like in it's structure and ability to partition nutrients. How strong of an insulin-like effect does it exert? Furthermore, if it's being substituted for diabetic patients in place of insulin, why would it not be superior? Is this because it's safer?

    What would be the best way to run IGF-1 if one were looking to benefit from it's partitioning abilities. Asume one had a day were one consumed many carbs. Could one use a large dose at the begining of the day and benefit from the 8-12 hour half life while nutrients are shuttled efficiently to empty liver and muscle glycogen stores.


    While taking IGF-1, would it be redundant or useless to also use AP/p-slin for the same reasons?

    Thoughts? Opinions? Studies? Insight? Tripknowledge?
    I don't beleive IGF-1 can fully substitue the complete action if insulin.
    Insulin initiates glucose transport into tissues (muscle, adipose, etc) via GLUT-4, a intracellular glucose transporter. IGF-1 has a much weaker action on GLUT-4 compared to insulin.
    Anabolic Pump/P-Slin have actives that claim to stimulate GLUT-4 without the need for greater insulin levels. Obviously you can see the certain benefits of this, especially since USPLabs claims that GLUT-4 stimulation does not occur in adipose tissue via these supplements, thus maximal uptake occurs in muscle and not fat.

    Also, there are other actions that are different between Insulin and IGF-1 on amino acid transport for example. Here is a related excerpt:

    IGF-1 and insulin both do very similar things: they both attach to receptors of muscle cells. The receptors are very similar. These receptors are part of the cell membrane structure. GH and insulin both increase the cellular membrane permeability of certain amino acids, to thus facilitate the transfer of those amino acids into the muscle cells into the sarco-plasm.

    The amino acids that insulin facilitates to cross are different than the amino acids that IGF-1 helps to cross. The entire array of both of them combined is what is necessary for "proteo-genesis" (new protein for muscles). It is like a double key system in a bank safe: you need both keys, or you can't open the safe. You need ALL the amino acids that IGF-1 helps to cross AND all the amino acids that insulin helps to cross, or you can't have proteo-genesis.

    High IGF-1 with low insulin has no anabolic effect because to have new proteo-genesis you need ALL the amino acids helped across by IGF-1 AND of insulin. Low IGF-1 and high insulin also does not help to build muscle because IGF-1 is missing, so the amino acid array is incomplete.
    Intracellular Organization of Insulin Signaling and GLUT4 Translocation
    http://rphr.endojournals.org/cgi/con...tract/56/1/175

    The study below has a great table/chart of comparisons at the end.

    A SITUATION DETERMINED MODEL OF THE BODY METABOLISM:
    ROLES OF IGF-1 AND INSULIN DEPENDENT GLUT 4

    http://www.kurbel.org/metabolism.pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobaslaw View Post
    I don't beleive IGF-1 can fully substitue the complete action if insulin.
    Insulin initiates glucose transport into tissues (muscle, adipose, etc) via GLUT-4, a intracellular glucose transporter. IGF-1 has a much weaker action on GLUT-4 compared to insulin.
    Anabolic Pump/P-Slin have actives that claim to stimulate GLUT-4 without the need for greater insulin levels. Obviously you can see the certain benefits of this, especially since USPLabs claims that GLUT-4 stimulation does not occur in adipose tissue via these supplements, thus maximal uptake occurs in muscle and not fat.

    Also, there are other actions that are different between Insulin and IGF-1 on amino acid transport for example. Here is a related excerpt:



    Intracellular Organization of Insulin Signaling and GLUT4 Translocation
    http://rphr.endojournals.org/cgi/con...tract/56/1/175

    The study below has a great table/chart of comparisons at the end.

    A SITUATION DETERMINED MODEL OF THE BODY METABOLISM:
    ROLES OF IGF-1 AND INSULIN DEPENDENT GLUT 4

    http://www.kurbel.org/metabolism.pdf
    Thanks bro, awsome info.


    I've been contemplating going to TKD versus CKD which I'm currently on. I like the idea of spiking insulin after workouts along with the LR3. You suggest doing this is way more beneficial.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryingEmo View Post

    IGF-1 is said to be like insulin-like in it's structure and ability to partition nutrients. How strong of an insulin-like effect does it exert? Furthermore, if it's being substituted for diabetic patients in place of insulin, why would it not be superior? Is this because it's safer?
    From a post I made yesterday in Grunt's IGF-I thread. My take on IGF-1

    The growth-promoting activity of insulin itself is due to its limited ability to bind to IGF-I receptor. To do this, insulin has to be present in high concentrations because the affinity of the IGF-I receptor for insulin is about 1000x less than the affinity of the insulin receptor for insulin. IGF-II can also productively bind to the IGF-I receptor, albeit with much lower affinity. Thus, all three factors are growth-promoting, and IGF-II and insulin become important when IGF-I is low or absent. Presumably, IGFs can cross over to the insulin receptor in the absence of insulin, although this sort of rescue may not be important in insulin-deficient diabetes.

    Although the source material doesn't exactly say ...it appears that the insulin receptor has a weak (rather than strong) binding affinity for IGFs...is it 1000x less...maybe?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobaslaw View Post
    A SITUATION DETERMINED MODEL OF THE BODY METABOLISM:
    ROLES OF IGF-1 AND INSULIN DEPENDENT GLUT 4

    http://www.kurbel.org/metabolism.pdf
    Very nice abstract Bob,
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    From an exchange I had yesterday in a thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by nattydisaster
    The antidiabetic activity of an extract from the leaves of Lagerstroemia speciosa standardized to 1% corosolic acid (Glucosol) has been demonstrated in a randomized clinical trial involving Type II diabetics. Subjects received a daily oral dose of Glucosol and blood glucose levels were measured. Glucosol at daily dosages of 32 and 48mg for 2 weeks showed a significant reduction in the blood glucose levels. Glucosol in a soft gel capsule formulation showed a 30% decrease in blood glucose levels compared to a 20% drop seen with dry-powder filled hard gelatin capsule formulation suggesting that the soft gel formulation has a better bioavailability than a dry-powder formulation.

    Corosolic acid isolated from the fruit of Crataegus pinnatifida var. psilosa is a protein kinase C inhibitor as well as a cytotoxic agent.
    Planta Med. 1998 Jun;64(5):468-70.
    Corosolic acid isolated from the fruit of Cratoegus pinnatifida var. psilosa was tested for anticancer activity. Corosolic acid displayed about the same potent cytotoxic activity as ursolic acid against several human cancer cell lines. In addition, the compound displayed antagonistic activity against the phorbol ester-induced morphological modification of K-562 leukemic cells, indicating the suppression of protein kinase C (PKC) activity by the cytotoxic compound. Corosolic acid showed PKC inhibition with dose-dependent pattern in an in vitro PKC assay.




    See now that makes more sense. 48mg of 1%. You made it seem like 48mg of pure 100%, thats why i said it was way too high
    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
    The first abstract referenced blood glucose levels and did not delineate PPAR-Gamma mRNA expression, did not delineate the translocation of GLUT4, and, if you bothered to read the full study, said this:

    Acute and chronic clinical studies of Corosolic acid (Glucosol™) formulations in normal subjects at daily dose of 48 mg Glucosol™ indicate that their blood sugar levels remain in the normal range (75 to 110 mg/dL) before, during and after the intake of Glucosol™
    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
    .48mg of Corsolic Acid, therefore, exerted no effect on normal subject's fasting glucose (which isn't what we are after, anyway). As I said (is there an echo in here?), at least 30 mg of pure Corosolic Acid is needed to see results in vivo. Further, NIDDM is a disease not necessarily characterized by inefficient glucose metabolism exclusively, but of energy turnover ratios as a whole - this is why Lagerstroemia is so effective in this particular respect, as it creates positive energy turnover ratios via the activation of AMPk, deregulation of PPAR and so on.

    You seem to be fixated on blood glucose levels, which are irrelevant in our weigh lifting respect - but, why? Because adipocytes are regulated via the same insulin-reactive pathways as myocytes; meaning that glucose metabolism may be through lipid uptake as well. You need to concern yourself with BE's ability to inhibit adipocyte differentiation by regulating genes responsible for energy expenditure (as I have mentioned multiple times). This affinity for energy regulation - differentiated in myo- versus adipocytes - separates P-Slin and Anabolic Pump from ALA/Cinnulin in that particular respect. Those products solely mitigate Insulin-Dependent pathways, whereas Anabolic Pump and P-Slin circumvent insulin, and directly regulate energy use at the genetic level. Therefore, 'lowered blood glucose' may be through GLUT4 regulation in adipocytes as well. This is not necessarily specific to this conversation, but merely attempting to assist you as a whole - you are inquisitive, which is positive, but extremely misinformed and misguided.
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    hey all this talk of using igf, hope thats not mine you are referring to bro.

    seriously though I dont think you can use igf instead of slin. use them both together for a good nutirent shuttling+anabolic effect.
    btw ephedrine hcl also has good nutrient shuttling abilities.
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    Im not impressed with Anabolic Pump. I have been using double dosage and not impressed at all.

    bb
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblu View Post
    Im not impressed with Anabolic Pump. I have been using double dosage and not impressed at all.

    bb
    never been impressed with any 'supplements' except creatine and beta alanine. imo of course.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pumbertot View Post
    never been impressed with any 'supplements' except creatine and beta alanine. imo of course.
    Actually, "SnakeOil Extreme 2.0" is standardized for 95% placebo extract. I tell ya, just doesn't get better than that!
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    Quote Originally Posted by pumbertot View Post
    never been impressed with any 'supplements' except creatine and beta alanine. imo of course.
    What did you feel from Beta Alanine, if I may ask?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    What did you feel from Beta Alanine, if I may ask?

    I feel the love.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryingEmo View Post
    I feel the love.
    LOL! Dude, you're too much. You seriously put me in a good mood with your humor! Funny s#!t.
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    Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all night.



    Back on topic,

    So for my higher carb days... I'll have the insulin pumping because of the carbs, but if I throw in IGF-1, it will create the full anabolic effect of those carbs effectively being shuttled where i want?
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblu View Post
    Im not impressed with Anabolic Pump. I have been using double dosage and not impressed at all.

    bb
    That was my impression as well. I just threw out an almost full bottle. But hey his products were always top quality & overfilled way back when... so you can't fault the man for his supplement venture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    What did you feel from Beta Alanine, if I may ask?
    fuller muscles, a gain of around 1kg and a couple more reps before hitting failure. is working very well along with the peptides, definitely adds a little extra to the wrokout. and with only having to use arund 5g/day, its rediculously cheap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pumbertot View Post
    fuller muscles, a gain of around 1kg and a couple more reps before hitting failure. is working very well along with the peptides, definitely adds a little extra to the wrokout. and with only having to use arund 5g/day, its rediculously cheap.
    I ask because there is not a single shred of credible evidence on the planet supporting Beta Alanine does what you just claimed - this is not to be confrontational, but there just isn't.

    There is evidence it attenuates fatigue, but that is about it.

    datBtru, how were you dosing the product? You are quite knowledgeable, so I assume you did your research, but maybe I can help you recuperate the money you spent on AP with some effects.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    That was my impression as well. I just threw out an almost full bottle. But hey his products were always top quality & overfilled way back when... so you can't fault the man for his supplement venture.

    True enough DBT!! I wish I could get some of his previous products as opposed to his current venture.

    bb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I ask because there is not a single shred of credible evidence on the planet supporting Beta Alanine does what you just claimed - this is not to be confrontational, but there just isn't.

    There is evidence it attenuates fatigue, but that is about it.

    datBtru, how were you dosing the product? You are quite knowledgeable, so I assume you did your research, but maybe I can help you recuperate the money you spent on AP with some effects.
    did not realise there was no credible evidence out there. maybe its just luck or something but definitely add something extra for me. I was already using igf/mgf/hgh/slin + creatine before I added the beta alanine so of course I cant tell what is doing what but a week after taking 5-6g/day there was a surge in strength and I looked fuller. im still gaining nicely and bf is dropping, im quite sure the beta alanine is helping the other stuff with this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pumbertot View Post
    did not realise there was no credible evidence out there. maybe its just luck or something but definitely add something extra for me. I was already using igf/mgf/hgh/slin + creatine before I added the beta alanine so of course I cant tell what is doing what but a week after taking 5-6g/day there was a surge in strength and I looked fuller. im still gaining nicely and bf is dropping, im quite sure the beta alanine is helping the other stuff with this.
    That might have had something to do with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    That might have had something to do with it.

    yep but im still sticking by it, that it does add something extra.
    I dont need research to tell me otherwise.
    there are muppets out there that will show you studies that using HGH does nothing for your gains.
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    And there are a lot of muppets out there who will tell you Tribulus raises their testosterone based on nothing but subjective sexual drive. It's a hard world for supplements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I ask because there is not a single shred of credible evidence on the planet supporting Beta Alanine does what you just claimed - this is not to be confrontational, but there just isn't.

    There is evidence it attenuates fatigue, but that is about it.

    datBtru, how were you dosing the product? You are quite knowledgeable, so I assume you did your research, but maybe I can help you recuperate the money you spent on AP with some effects.
    Well pump said (among other things) that he got a "couple more reps before hitting failure" and attributed that to Beta Alanine. I don't use Beta Alanine regularly ...but when I experimented w/ it (alone w/ no other supps white, grey or black) THAT is what I experienced ..."a couple more reps before hitting failure."

    Mull bro I know what you're saying & I don't disagree w/ it but to say "there is not a single shred of credible evidence on the planet" to support the ability to get a few more reps might be incorrect.

    Hey I appreciate your offer to help me out ...I sometimes forget that a post can be read by a wider audience so it is appropriate for me to say that I benefited from USPLAbs Cissus and the original Powerful ...they were great products. Also when Campo-whatever became appropriately priced I thought that was a quality Bacopa extract & enjoyed that product as well.

    ...but as far as your offer to help me out...right now I am a nutrient partitioning machine. My vascularity is very very freaky, my bodyfat is very low and my muscle bellies are full ...I am one beautiful mutha-f@cka ...no brag just fact ...no actually it is both.

    I don't mind taking a flier on a supplement that turns out not to work... a supplement that shows no ability to dispose of glucose as measured objectively w/ my glucometer ...it doesn't matter to me bro.

    This won't prevent me from purchasing a quality herb if it is appropriately priced from USPLabs in the future.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Well pump said (among other things) that he got a "couple more reps before hitting failure" and attributed that to Beta Alanine. I don't use Beta Alanine regularly ...but when I experimented w/ it (alone w/ no other supps white, grey or black) THAT is what I experienced ..."a couple more reps before hitting failure."

    Mull bro I know what you're saying & I don't disagree w/ it but to say "there is not a single shred of credible evidence on the planet" to support the ability to get a few more reps might be incorrect.

    Hey I appreciate your offer to help me out ...I sometimes forget that a post can be read by a wider audience so it is appropriate for me to say that I benefited from USPLAbs Cissus and the original Powerful ...they were great products. Also when Campo-whatever became appropriately priced I thought that was a quality Bacopa extract & enjoyed that product as well.

    ...but as far as your offer to help me out...right now I am a nutrient partitioning machine. My vascularity is very very freaky, my bodyfat is very low and my muscle bellies are full ...I am one beautiful mutha-f@cka ...no brag just fact ...no actually it is both.

    I don't mind taking a flier on a supplement that turns out not to work... a supplement that shows no ability to dispose of glucose as measured objectively w/ my glucometer ...it doesn't matter to me bro.

    This won't prevent me from purchasing a quality herb if it is appropriately priced from USPLabs in the future.
    I suppose I should have extrapolated on my statements. My claim to pump should have read:

    "There is not a single shred of credible evidence supporting Beta Alanine's contribution to anything other than slightly attenuating fatigue"

    Now, that's correct.
  

  
 

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