Peptides vs. Exo-HGH (in terms of insulin)

[sespress]

So
I hear a lot about various Peptides, and of course HGH is famous. However I didn't know that HGH created insulin resistance! That's a big deal. I wondered, how do the GH stimulating peptides rank up with this? Does any GH in the blood create this or only when you add the goods in direct?

I understand that most Peptides are well handled and I'd been under the impression that they might be safer, if not as great in terms of results and speed as real gear but insulin resistance sounds horrendous, I've a cousin who's diabetic and her health is terrible (young onset not obese).

Can anyone shed light on this? It's the resistance you gain from HGH compare to Peptides and is this resistance permanent (I think probably)

Thanks all!

 

[Movin_weight]

Depends on dosing of hgh and duration... low dosing for anti-aging effects may not have significant effects on insulin resistance, but moderate to high doses have profound effects. It's usually quickly reversible once you stop dosing however.

Peptides such as ghrp and cjc have less effect because they still rely on the body's ability to produce gh. It's like comparing test propionate to hcg....

 

[sespress]

Depends on dosing of hgh and duration... low dosing for anti-aging effects may not have significant effects on insulin resistance, but moderate to high doses have profound effects. It's usually quickly reversible once you stop dosing however.

Peptides such as ghrp and cjc have less effect because they still rely on the body's ability to produce gh. It's like comparing test propionate to hcg....

OK that was my understanding however I did think the resistance might be permanently with you. Good to know! I'll be trying out the CJC route. Here's my provisional plan:

CJC W DAC(weekly dose ... ?)
CJC W out DAC + ghrp-2 blend 3* daily
Possibly frag added (I've also heard frag is worthless, any thoughts?).
Don't think any support or ancillary needed. Correct me if wrong.

I'm currently in a recomp right now and trying to drop some more body fat before I run some real serious gear. I've taken Mk and haven't had issues with hunger screwing me over, I hear the w/DAC shots and the ghrp-6 can cause hunger on a crazy level but folks have said that about MK as well and no issues.

I've been on a supplement break for the last three to four weeks to get my system clean before trying out anything else.

Any thoughts appreciated.

 

[Movin_weight]

OK that was my understanding however I did think the resistance might be permanently with you. Good to know! I'll be trying out the CJC route. Here's my provisional plan:

CJC W DAC(weekly dose ... ?)
CJC W out DAC + ghrp-2 blend 3* daily
Possibly frag added (I've also heard frag is worthless, any thoughts?).
Don't think any support or ancillary needed. Correct me if wrong.

I'm currently in a recomp right now and trying to drop some more body fat before I run some real serious gear. I've taken Mk and haven't had issues with hunger screwing me over, I hear the w/DAC shots and the ghrp-6 can cause hunger on a crazy level but folks have said that about MK as well and no issues.

I've been on a supplement break for the last three to four weeks to get my system clean before trying out anything else.

Any thoughts appreciated.

It's a possibility with higher dosing for a long period of time for it to have some lasting permanent effect, but most people don't have issues when cycling.

I always liked ghrp/cjc and you can have some decent results alone. Of course adding something anabolic is always synergistic.

If you don't get hunger/flushing feeling after dosing I would be weary of the products legitimacy.

For fat loss though I've always gone the igf route.

 

[sespress]

It's a possibility with higher dosing for a long period of time for it to have some lasting permanent effect, but most people don't have issues when cycling.

I always liked ghrp/cjc and you can have some decent results alone. Of course adding something anabolic is always synergistic.

If you don't get hunger/flushing feeling after dosing I would be weary of the products legitimacy.

For fat loss though I've always gone the igf route.

IGF is a immediate post workout right? Dose timing is very specific isn't it? I'll start looking at that also. Very interesting stuff

 

[sespress]

Hey tagging folks saywutrly rascal14

 

[sespress]

Either of you guys know who else to tag please go for it. Looking for dose recommendations for my proposed run of Peptides, also I hear I should run this for like min two months right?

 

[rascal14]

I would just run CJC w DAC and don't worry about adding in the no dac with it. If anything, add in GHRP-2 a couple times a day. CJC w DAC I would run 3-5mg a week. I hear a lot of mixed reviews on HGH Frag so personally I would stay away from it.

 

[sespress]

I heard it might not be worth it either OK good to know. It'll be cheaper to drop the blends too.

Thanks for the reply boss!

 

[rtmilburn]

OK that was my understanding however I did think the resistance might be permanently with you. Good to know! I'll be trying out the CJC route. Here's my provisional plan:

CJC W DAC(weekly dose ... ?)
CJC W out DAC + ghrp-2 blend 3* daily
Possibly frag added (I've also heard frag is worthless, any thoughts?).
Don't think any support or ancillary needed. Correct me if wrong.

I'm currently in a recomp right now and trying to drop some more body fat before I run some real serious gear. I've taken Mk and haven't had issues with hunger screwing me over, I hear the w/DAC shots and the ghrp-6 can cause hunger on a crazy level but folks have said that about MK as well and no issues.

I've been on a supplement break for the last three to four weeks to get my system clean before trying out anything else.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Insulin resistant is not permanent however it can take up to 2 years to reverse.

Honestly if a type 2 diabetics went full blow keto for a full 2 years I would bet my left nut they would not have diabetes any more. Even with the worst cases. And if for whatever magical reason they weren't "cured" they would be close to it. I would also but my left, right nut and even penis on the line that if they used metformin and maybe a dpp4 inhibitor or glp-1 while keto for a full two years that every type 2 diabetic wouldn't have it anymore.

 

[sespress]

Insulin resistant is not permanent however it can take up to 2 years to reverse.

Honestly if a type 2 diabetics went full blow keto for a full 2 years I would bet my left nut they would not have diabetes any more. Even with the worst cases. And if for whatever magical reason they weren't "cured" they would be close to it. I would also but my left, right nut and even penis on the line that if they used metformin and maybe a dpp4 inhibitor or glp-1 while keto for a full two years that every type 2 diabetic wouldn't have it anymore.

Whoa! Firm assertion there (no pun intended). I actually had worked with a lady that only needed her insulin very occasionally. For that exact reason she ate like 0 carb diet. I'm gonna have to look up that other stuff you mentioned, never heard of it

 

[rtmilburn]

Whoa! Firm assertion there (no pun intended). I actually had worked with a lady that only needed her insulin very occasionally. For that exact reason she ate like 0 carb diet. I'm gonna have to look up that other stuff you mentioned, never heard of it

With keto it's not all about carbs(biggest part tho) protein can easily be turned into carbs when you aren't eating any carbs. Certain aminos can as well glutamine can very easily. When keto protein should be at about .7 grams per lb of body weight spread throughout the day the portion not above 17ish grams at a time. Also fiber is VERY important for keto, eat lots of it.

I'm curious how long and consistent she was with that low of carb diet.

Edit. Also would like to add that consuming SMALL(around 30ish give or take 10grams depending the individual)amount of carbs, like from veggies, can actually increase ketone levels in the body. However I would try to avoid carbs form non vegetables sources. Also working out is very crucial to the ketosis process

 

[rtmilburn]

Also I'm not sure why type 1 diabetics don't use some of the type 2 treatments with insulin. A glp-1 and metformin would make their insulin injections way more efficient requiring way less insulin.

 

[rascal14]

Also I'm not sure why type 1 diabetics don't use some of the type 2 treatments with insulin. A glp-1 and metformin would make their insulin injections way more efficient requiring way less insulin.

Why is Metformin no good for bodybuilding purposes?

 

[sespress]

I love this forum I'm like going to med school

 

[rtmilburn]

Why is Metformin no good for bodybuilding purposes?

I think metformin is actually good for bodybuilding imo. However there is some evidence that it can SLIGHTLY decrease the amount of androgen receptors in the body. I think there was also something about 3 or 4% reduction in the creation of new mitochondrial cells. But idk for certain on the last one

Edit. If the last one is true it would have been in non train people. So I think the issue could easily be solved with weight lifting and coq10 and pqq

Edited again lol. I pretty positive that metformin doesn't work through the traditional ampk the supplements use. But if it does that would be another reason. Although I'm not certain on that as it's been a bit since I've looked into metformin

 

[Movin_weight]

IGF is a immediate post workout right? Dose timing is very specific isn't it? I'll start looking at that also. Very interesting stuff

If using igf lr3 I've found little difference with protocols unless your are looking for spot enhancement.

Many will disagree but I pin sub q and the fact that it is mainly muscle specific for nutrient uptake is all you need for re-comp fat loss.

If you want more site specific growth then it gets complicated with intramuscular injection day of etc...

 

[rtmilburn]

I love this forum I'm like going to med school

Do not take what I say or anyone else says (especially me lol), as medical advice or anything of that manner, on this forum. Some of use are definitely very educated on these manners. However, we haven't gone to med school (someone might have on here but idk) and also lots of us, myself included at times, act like we know more than we do. (even though I will be the first to admit I was wrong we presented with evidence or read something to prove myself wrong). Although this can be a great place to educate yourself and gain a better understanding of such subjects. Just take it with a grain of salt and do your own research. Plus there is a lot of broscience!!! Sometimes broscience is right but most of time it's not. Even if it's correct there really won't be evidence proving the broscience, might be YEARS from now.

 

[sespress]

Do not take what I say or anyone else says (especially me lol), as medical advice or anything of that manner, on this forum. Some of use are definitely very educated on these manners. However, we haven't gone to med school (someone might have on here but idk) and also lots of us, myself included at times, act like we know more than we do. (even though I will be the first to admit I was wrong we presented with evidence or read something to prove myself wrong). Although this can be a great place to educate yourself and gain a better understanding of such subjects. Just take it with a grain of salt and do your own research. Plus there is a lot of broscience!!! Sometimes broscience is right but most of time it's not. Even if it's correct there really won't be evidence proving the broscience, might be YEARS from now.

Dude totally. Sad you need to actually tell people that - I do understand this and I also double-check and research everything that I read here and come to my own conclusions in time.

I've been given some fairly strict advice by people before and completely disregarded them I've also been told by people to do XY and z and then did XY and Z after I researched it and found that I thought that was accurate.

I appreciate the disclaimer though I meant it in fun and not in seriousness it is a great place to educate yourself and I have learned a tremendous amount here! I've also gotten interested in areas of supplementation nutrition exercise that I didn't even know existed with names that I had no idea were associated with the areas being spoken about!

That's why I love AM.

 

[sespress]

If using igf lr3 I've found little difference with protocols unless your are looking for spot enhancement.

Many will disagree but I pin sub q and the fact that it is mainly muscle specific for nutrient uptake is all you need for re-comp fat loss.

If you want more site specific growth then it gets complicated with intramuscular injection day of etc...

There's a few types if I'm reading correctly. Lr3 was your favorite or have you used others?

 

[rtmilburn]

Dude totally. Sad you need to actually tell people that - I do understand this and I also double-check and research everything that I read here and come to my own conclusions in time.

I've been given some fairly strict advice by people before and completely disregarded them I've also been told by people to do XY and z and then did XY and Z after I researched it and found that I thought that was accurate.

I appreciate the disclaimer though I meant it in fun and not in seriousness it is a great place to educate yourself and I have learned a tremendous amount here! I've also gotten interested in areas of supplementation nutrition exercise that I didn't even know existed with names that I had no idea were associated with the areas being spoken about!

That's why I love AM.

Totally glad that's the case. I also assumed that was the case. However, I wanted make sure that was clear. Especially for someone whom might be googling these subjects and finds this or a member that doesn't know better. You can never be too cautious! As I seen people take REALLY BAD advice as if it were an actual medical fact, and messed themselves up really bad.

Then again there some doctors giving some terrible medical advice as well.

That is why place like this, examine, pubmd, google, etc, etc are crucial to do your own research. Then communication with said knowledge with your doctor is soooo important. As I been given bad advice from doctors before and communicated with them, showed evidence, and had them to do their research as well. Which has lead to a much better overall medical treatment experience.

Still struggling to find a doctor that is willing to test my sex hormones due to my age(20). Even though I think I have some issues due to head trama. Which can drastically change what your hormones do. Even the ones that are willing, are only willing to do total T and total e2 test. Rather than a full profile which actually show issues whereas the other most likely won't.

 

[rtmilburn]

There's a few types if I'm reading correctly. Lr3 was your favorite or have you used others?

I wouldnt recommend lr3 thb. Maybe for short spurts like 2 weeks. As it doesn't allow for mgf to do it's function. As well as it seem chronic(24hours a days for weeks on end like with lr3) igf1 lead to receptor down regulation. Now weather not that one is true idk. It maybe the antibodies created with chronic igf the cuase that, or the suppression of HGH(you aren't taking HGH with igf), or it could just be that lr3 doesn't allow mgf to work which is a fact that causes that.

My recommendation is igf-1des(1,3) (aka igf Des for short) morning and preworkout with preg mgf nightly. All spot IM injections of trained muscle group(s) that day. That is for muscle size and strength gains if we're talking fatloss it's a whole other story. I think lr3 is up there with t3 for fatloss. Still wouldn't use it for longer than 4 weeks

 

[Movin_weight]

There's a few types if I'm reading correctly. Lr3 was your favorite or have you used others?

Lr3 and DES are your two main types... DES is touted as stronger but short acting and more suited for immediate pre workout admin and site enhancement. Again This is ultra simplified as there are tons of protocols and different ideas out there

Yes I personally prefer LR3 pinned sub q combined with an anabolic for recomp... when done right the transformation is dramatic. The long acting LR3 stays active which lets the re partitioning take effect. Igf enhances and stimulates nutrient uptake into muscle cells but not fat cells. Creates the ultimate environment for hypertrophy and fat-loss.

Again this is more for recomp and solo vs combined with ghrp/cjc.... as mentioned above if you are looking for cell division and the other potential effects of IGF then look at other protocols.

Getting a quality source of course is another discussion as all the sources tend to vary in quality.

 

[Movin_weight]

Totally glad that's the case. I also assumed that was the case. However, I wanted make sure that was clear. Especially for someone whom might be googling these subjects and finds this or a member that doesn't know better. You can never be too cautious! As I seen people take REALLY BAD advice as if it were an actual medical fact, and messed themselves up really bad.

Then again there some doctors giving some terrible medical advice as well.

That is why place like this, examine, pubmd, google, etc, etc are crucial to do your own research. Then communication with said knowledge with your doctor is soooo important. As I been given bad advice from doctors before and communicated with them, showed evidence, and had them to do their research as well. Which has lead to a much better overall medical treatment experience.

Still struggling to find a doctor that is willing to test my sex hormones due to my age(20). Even though I think I have some issues due to head trama. Which can drastically change what your hormones do. Even the ones that are willing, are only willing to do total T and total e2 test. Rather than a full profile which actually show issues whereas the other most likely won't.

Any doctor should test hormones at your request or you need to find a new doctor. There are also men's health clinics that don't use insurance to bill for hrt services which is what I currently use. I'm only 30 and on hrt for a variety of reasons, but all legit scripts and blood work every 6-months

 

[rtmilburn]

Any doctor should test hormones at your request or you need to find a new doctor. There are also men's health clinics that don't use insurance to bill for hrt services which is what I currently use. I'm only 30 and on hrt for a variety of reasons, but all legit scripts and blood work every 6-months

I totally agree doctors should test any type of blood work on request. Can't really just get another doctor as I've been to six different trying to do such. Plus I love my current doctor, other his unwillingness to do FULL hormone panel.

I might just go to lab and get it done myself without insurance. Those labs will do anything on request if show up to do so. The big issue is that insurance WON'T cover any of it, and I'm a very poor college student.

I also dont trust the trt/hrt/anti-aging clinics, maybe when I'm older and just want some stuff lol.

I'm NOT searching for TRT, clomid or anything like that I just trying to get an idea of what my a few things I suspect are low or high. I suspect that my dhea, dhea-s and pregenolone levels are low(I might start taking these even though I'm young). I suspect my e2, prolactin and aldosterone might be high. with prolactin I don't think it is high but there is a few things that make wonder. However, Im pretty sure my aldosterone is high. I ALWAYS have this water bloat all the damn time even in keto, with low sodium, high potassium, and moderately high magnesium. Although I'm pretty sure I have pretty my test and dht levels are high. I also suspect I may have some thyroid issues. As I cant loose more then fukin 10 pounds, which is most likely all water, even with strict keto. I know my insulin sensitivity is great even before keto my BG would only be in the 90s even after hugely carb and surgery meals(when I was eating like that). My fasted would even get into the high 50s low 60s and no I'm not type 1 or 2 diabetic; nor did I ever experience hypo symtems. Of course there is a lot more I would look at.

 

[rtmilburn]

Lr3 and DES are your two main types... DES is touted as stronger but short acting and more suited for immediate post workout admin and site enhancement. Again This is ultra simplified as there are tons of protocols and different ideas out there

Yes I personally prefer LR3 pinned sub q combined with an anabolic for recomp... when done right the transformation is dramatic. The long acting LR3 stays active which lets the re partitioning take effect. Igf enhances and stimulates nutrient uptake into muscle cells but not fat cells. Creates the ultimate environment for hypertrophy and fat-loss.

Again this is more for recomp and solo vs combined with ghrp/cjc.... as mentioned above if you are looking for cell division and the other potential effects of IGF then look at other protocols.

Getting a quality source of course is another discussion as all the sources tend to vary in quality.

I have no personal experience with this but taking igf1 post would seem counter productive imo. As it would inhibit your natural mgf levels or artificial levels. Whereas Des morning and pre you would not have that issue. That is also part of the reason I recommend peg mgf at night. As your natural mgf levels after a good workout increases to a pretty high amount but with peg mgf it won't really matter to much since it has a half life is very long. Now this would all be irrelevant if using lr3 which on paper I'm not a fan for the few reason I mention a couple post ago. Unless you are using lr3 for fatloss instead of size/strength. As lr3 is one of the kings for fatloss.

Would like to say one of the guys I train is doing 500mcg peg mgf nightly with a dose of Des morning and pre 200mcg each dose. Hes not even on juice and the results are very very noticeable! He's been doing this for 4 months with CJC and mk and like I said the results are quite spectacular. He says he almost never gets sore, sleeps like a baby, and his bursitis in his knee is gone.

 

[rascal14]

Don't waste your money on IGF either. You likely aren't getting the real thing, and even then your money is better spent on other things unless you are a top level IFBB pro stacking it with multiple compounds.

Unless you just have money to waste.. lol then go ahead and experiment. But IGF is very expensive for the real thing so be weary.

 

[sespress]

Any doctor should test hormones at your request or you need to find a new doctor. There are also men's health clinics that don't use insurance to bill for hrt services which is what I currently use. I'm only 30 and on hrt for a variety of reasons, but all legit scripts and blood work every 6-months

Yeah I'm using a site, 69 bucks for a panel of the SEX hormones. Dunno about GH panels I'll have to see. Something tells me I will be paying more for that! Still I know the value of good bloods.

 

[sespress]

Don't waste your money on IGF either. You likely aren't getting the real thing, and even then your money is better spent on other things unless you are a top level IFBB pro stacking it with multiple compounds.

Unless you just have money to waste.. lol then go ahead and experiment. But IGF is very expensive for the real thing so be weary.

Hmm. I mean are there noticable signs it's "not bunk" like if I grab a tiny protocol from a place just to test it out? For instance the flush and hunger from CJC?

 

[sespress]

OK say I'm trying to lose 10 more fat lb's. Could I:

Run IGF lr3 for a bit and not lose strength too much? Is it gonna be like running t3 w/o gear and just go catabolic on you? I can throw super 1 or even just super epi onto it and delay my actual run a few more months to compensate. Fat loss is my main goal. Recomp is how I've been getting there. More muscle more metabolics gonna help. Given that's my preferred route what do you think?

Then after loss I'm going in for Trest and epistane. Already on hand with supports. Just trying to ply off a bit more of the gut. Iykwim.

I've heard GREAT things about mgf specifically peg for its long half life. That stuff sounds like it could be run... Through this fat loss and into my actual run? Do you have a max time on you need to be aware of? What doses are talking about here. That's factored out of the discussion on these items. I think my biceps would love a little spot attention they're stubborn.
rascal14 didn't you log IGF Des, or was it lr3? You still don't like that stuff or you think I need to be on the next level first?
I'm not insulted if that's your opinion if you've seen my epistane log you've seen my starting pics (I've lost a lot since then but I'm not lean like your avatar) I can spare the cash right now. I saved this year's bonus for experimentation, I can drop another 2 bills on gear/Peptides without issue. I've already bought my Anabolicz.

 

[sespress]

Lr3 and DES are your two main types... DES is touted as stronger but short acting and more suited for immediate post workout admin and site enhancement. Again This is ultra simplified as there are tons of protocols and different ideas out there

Yes I personally prefer LR3 pinned sub q combined with an anabolic for recomp... when done right the transformation is dramatic. The long acting LR3 stays active which lets the re partitioning take effect. Igf enhances and stimulates nutrient uptake into muscle cells but not fat cells. Creates the ultimate environment for hypertrophy and fat-loss.

Again this is more for recomp and solo vs combined with ghrp/cjc.... as mentioned above if you are looking for cell division and the other potential effects of IGF then look at other protocols.

Getting a quality source of course is another discussion as all the sources tend to vary in quality.

Your recommendation on the anabolic to combine with?

 

[Movin_weight]

I have no personal experience with this but taking igf1 post would seem counter productive imo. As it would inhibit your natural mgf levels or artificial levels. Whereas Des morning and pre you would not have that issue. That is also part of the reason I recommend peg mgf at night. As your natural mgf levels after a good workout increases to a pretty high amount but with peg mgf it won't really matter to much since it has a half life is very long. Now this would all be irrelevant if using lr3 which on paper I'm not a fan for the few reason I mention a couple post ago. Unless you are using lr3 for fatloss instead of size/strength. As lr3 is one of the kings for fatloss.

Would like to say one of the guys I train is doing 500mcg peg mgf nightly with a dose of Des morning and pre 200mcg each dose. Hes not even on juice and the results are very very noticeable! He's been doing this for 4 months with CJC and mk and like I said the results are quite spectacular. He says he almost never gets sore, sleeps like a baby, and his bursitis in his knee is gone.

You are correct it's pre not post for igf typo or confusing my thoughts.

I've done peg protocols in the past as well with DES and had success.

Since the OP specifically asked about weightloss that's where my mind went regarding igf lr3

 

[Movin_weight]

Your recommendation on the anabolic to combine with?

Anything dry with strong glycogen storing properties. I haven't used any of the new age PH. Methylstenbolone is my favorite of all time, but pretty potent and tough to find. Epistane would be a good addition.

What do you have access to?

 

[sespress]

Anything dry with strong glycogen storing properties. I haven't used any of the new age PH. Methylstenbolone is my favorite of all time, but pretty potent and tough to find. Epistane would be a good addition.

What do you have access to?

Epistane, DMZ (old school), any of the new super OL products (4, 11, Epi, 1, 2 - andro). Trest, trenevar (dunno about that though)

Here's the DMZ product:. Too lazy to type

I've got the ability to purchase a good amount more of what was banned, mostly 17a methyl stuff though. Plenty of Tudca around.

 

[Movin_weight]

Epistane would be my choice out of those. Plus you already have experience with it.

If I was going to try to drop bf and maintain muscle as quickly as possible in 3-4-weeks it would be the following.

20mg msten throughout (or sub in epistane)

Igf-lr3 sub q 60-80mcg daily before 1st meal or AM

long halflife so it will build over time and stick around about a week or so after dosing.

T3: 100mcg throughout.... again long half-life so stop dosing a week or so before you the epistane/sten

Then add in your cjc/ghrp during pct to help maintain.

 

[rascal14]

I've never used IGF. You could get a vial and see if you start getting hypo symptoms after dosing it I believe is one way to tell.

 

[sespress]

I've never used IGF. You could get a vial and see if you start getting hypo symptoms after dosing it I believe is one way to tell.

Sorry it was maybe saywutrly ?

 

[sespress]

Epistane would be my choice out of those. Plus you already have experience with it.

If I was going to try to drop bf and maintain muscle as quickly as possible in 3-4-weeks it would be the following.

20mg msten throughout (or sub in epistane)

Igf-lr3 sub q 60-80mcg daily before 1st meal or AM

long halflife so it will build over time and stick around about a week or so after dosing.

T3: 100mcg throughout.... again long half-life so stop dosing a week or so before you the epistane/sten

Then add in your cjc/ghrp during pct to help maintain.

Where do you pin it? Tummy?

 

[Movin_weight]

Yeah stomach is fine... I move it around just in case there is some localized effects.

If it's legit you should feel intense pumps during workouts and notice some mild hypo symptoms.

 

[sespress]

OK sounds good. I of course ordered some CJC already so I imagine that stuff will keep if I don't reconstitute it with water right? I'd like to try it to be sure it's good but then it'll be liquid... So I guess I'll put it in the fridge and let it chill out (pun intended lol). Oh boy that was a bad one lol.

 

[saywutrly]

Sorry it was maybe saywutrly ?

Yessir it was me. I've not used the LR3 as I don't like the idea of IGF flying around my body due to its ability to grow anything, not just good things. We have enough of this with androgens. We don't need to make it worse, IMHO.

What was the original question? I'm trying to catch up on all my threads.

 

[sespress]

Yessir it was me. I've not used the LR3 as I don't like the idea of IGF flying around my body due to its ability to grow anything, not just good things. We have enough of this with androgens. We don't need to make it worse, IMHO.

What was the original question? I'm trying to catch up on all my threads.

Hey there, see I got it right eventually. One of my tags was bound to get to the right person!

so the question is whether or not you like the product lr3 or you felt that it wasn't worth the money. My original post was about insulin resistance, bit that's been answered and we've moved far afield lol.

I know that there's a lot of the stuff that we take that can grow a lot of bad things I think most anabolics increase your risk for cancer correct? Peptides cause GH which grows whatever as well. either way I'm not sure why lr3 would do that whereas Des would not? is it just because of the long half-life? if that's so then it's still happening with Des right? just only when you inject and for however long it's around do you feel like it's safe to use for even a month or two? Is Des good for a cut or bulk?

The goal is recomp before going on epistane+Trest. The original thread was to ask about CJC dose protocols, if frag was worthwhile and mgf was brought up. I'm cutting right now and use tiny bits of mk677, line 12.5eod, ran out and started thinking Peptides. I've been using the mk to help hold onto gains from last cycle and just kept it up. Really I love the stuff. Good sleep, and helps me choke down my bland asz dinner!

The suggestion became to run t3 + lr3 and epistane. I personally will probably not use t3. My original plan was to run CJC W DAC + ghrp-2 and MAYBE frag or mgf down the line. Really I only ordered the CJC W DAC so far, so just investigating. I'm able to control hunger not worried about that. There's a short list above of what Anabolicz I have on hand as well if a change of plan is in order.

Thanks bro!

 

[saywutrly]

Hey there, see I got it right eventually. One of my tags was bound to get to the right person!

so the question is whether or not you like the product lr3 or you felt that it wasn't worth the money. My original post was about insulin resistance, bit that's been answered and we've moved far afield lol.

I know that there's a lot of the stuff that we take that can grow a lot of bad things I think most anabolics increase your risk for cancer correct? Peptides cause GH which grows whatever as well. either way I'm not sure why lr3 would do that whereas Des would not? is it just because of the long half-life? if that's so then it's still happening with Des right? just only when you inject and for however long it's around do you feel like it's safe to use for even a month or two? Is Des good for a cut or bulk?

The goal is recomp before going on epistane+Trest. The original thread was to ask about CJC dose protocols, if frag was worthwhile and mgf was brought up. I'm cutting right now and use tiny bits of mk677, line 12.5eod, ran out and started thinking Peptides. I've been using the mk to help hold onto gains from last cycle and just kept it up. Really I love the stuff. Good sleep, and helps me choke down my bland asz dinner!

The suggestion became to run t3 + lr3 and epistane. I personally will probably not use t3. My original plan was to run CJC W DAC + ghrp-2 and MAYBE frag or mgf down the line. Really I only ordered the CJC W DAC so far, so just investigating. I'm able to control hunger not worried about that. There's a short list above of what Anabolicz I have on hand as well if a change of plan is in order.

Thanks bro!

I would look out for insulin resistance caused by LR3. I had a thread here where myself and another more scientifically-adept individual had a very good discussion on how we much preferred DES or even standard IGF because it is non-systemic. It is true that we already take a lot of things that go systemic and can affect things other than our muscles. That's why I like to cut those to a minimum. LR3 goes systemic because it is designed to as it is designed for those who have a very rare IGF deficiency. If you have that, you want it everywhere. If you already function properly along those lines, you don't want it all over the place. That's why you can just pop it in your belly fat rather than direct into a muscle as with any other IGF.

I have a client right now who is cutting on GHRP2, Mod-GRF 1-29 (CJC w/o DAC), and HGH Frag. He reported at only two weeks that he was already losing fat in areas he had never lost and he was seeing veins he didn't know he had. He is only a couple hundred calories below maintenance. I NEVER, repeat NEVER recommend CJC w/ DAC to any male. Male bodies naturally pulse GH. Female bodies run more steady releases of HGH. You never want to introduce a steady rise in GH to the male body. Just about everyone else here will say it is fine just like LR3, but I am more cautious and take bioscience into account more than the average bro.

If you're looking to cut BEFORE your epi+trest cycle, I'd say run just peptides with your (hopefully) clean cutting diet. You can add T3 and/or T4 to this. It won't hurt, but I haven't seen anyone who wasn't planning to step on a show stage need to mess with thyroid. If you did do it, though, and you're single, you could find a fat-to-fit chick on her way there and use that CJC w/dac and your leftover t3 to accelerate the process LOLOL.

When you are to your goal for fat loss, drop the frag, keep the peptides going, and start the trest and epi. Then, keep your diet clean so that you gain good quality lean muscle. (Except all the water weight from trest). Epistane and Trenavar would also be a nice cycle per what I've read since you stated that you have access.

To your more specific questions, DES doesn't go systemic (elsewhere in the body) because it has an even shorter half-life than regular IGF. It stays in the muscle you inject it before it is metabolized. It is just as good for a cut or a bulk. I came to like IGF a lot between cycle to hold onto my gains and not lose my knack of pinning my muscles. IGF should be cycled - people debate how. I usually do 2 weeks on/2 weeks off. Some will do 4 on/2 off, or 4 and 4. I wouldn't run it for more than 2 months consecutively without taking a month break.

If there's anything I didn't answer, just let me know. I'll be at a regular PC for a little while longer, makes it easier to type the long answers.

 

[sespress]

I would look out for insulin resistance caused by LR3. I had a thread here where myself and another more scientifically-adept individual had a very good discussion on how we much preferred DES or even standard IGF because it is non-systemic. It is true that we already take a lot of things that go systemic and can affect things other than our muscles. That's why I like to cut those to a minimum. LR3 goes systemic because it is designed to as it is designed for those who have a very rare IGF deficiency. If you have that, you want it everywhere. If you already function properly along those lines, you don't want it all over the place. That's why you can just pop it in your belly fat rather than direct into a muscle as with any other IGF.

I have a client right now who is cutting on GHRP2, Mod-GRF 1-29 (CJC w/o DAC), and HGH Frag. He reported at only two weeks that he was already losing fat in areas he had never lost and he was seeing veins he didn't know he had. He is only a couple hundred calories below maintenance. I NEVER, repeat NEVER recommend CJC w/ DAC to any male. Male bodies naturally pulse GH. Female bodies run more steady releases of HGH. You never want to introduce a steady rise in GH to the male body. Just about everyone else here will say it is fine just like LR3, but I am more cautious and take bioscience into account more than the average bro.

If you're looking to cut BEFORE your epi+trest cycle, I'd say run just peptides with your (hopefully) clean cutting diet. You can add T3 and/or T4 to this. It won't hurt, but I haven't seen anyone who wasn't planning to step on a show stage need to mess with thyroid. If you did do it, though, and you're single, you could find a fat-to-fit chick on her way there and use that CJC w/dac and your leftover t3 to accelerate the process LOLOL.

When you are to your goal for fat loss, drop the frag, keep the peptides going, and start the trest and epi. Then, keep your diet clean so that you gain good quality lean muscle. (Except all the water weight from trest). Epistane and Trenavar would also be a nice cycle per what I've read since you stated that you have access.

To your more specific questions, DES doesn't go systemic (elsewhere in the body) because it has an even shorter half-life than regular IGF. It stays in the muscle you inject it before it is metabolized. It is just as good for a cut or a bulk. I came to like IGF a lot between cycle to hold onto my gains and not lose my knack of pinning my muscles. IGF should be cycled - people debate how. I usually do 2 weeks on/2 weeks off. Some will do 4 on/2 off, or 4 and 4. I wouldn't run it for more than 2 months consecutively without taking a month break.

If there's anything I didn't answer, just let me know. I'll be at a regular PC for a little while longer, makes it easier to type the long answers.

Yeah man phone typing sucks!
That's great info, and yeah I'll probably not go t3/4 at all. I'm at like 400-500 in deficit but that was from when I was at 265, in at 245 right now. Funny thing I don't look that different but I had to punch a new hole in the belt (in the tighter direction) and I might need non big boy pants soon (have in stock already). No needs for fat chicks, that was hysterical though. Right now I feel like Peter Griffin, I've got a hot skinny girl at home who somehow didn't leave me after my car wreck, subsequent joblessness, or my getting extra fat! She's a great women, and provides me with all the horizontal exercise I could want!

So a gap in my knowledge:. Why is the non pulses of GH bad for men? Does it blunt the natural pulse? Why not throw the other on top and Just like raise the floor and pulse it also? Doesn't mean I'll discount what your saying and the W DAC is expensive comparitively, so that would help out!

Last question:. So there's Des, lr3 and REGULAR IGF. I didn't know there was reg igf all I hear about is the other two. So forget the lr3, focusing on the other two, the Des is spot injections. Kinda like non-peg mgf right? So that sounds annoying. Kind of like the 3* daily ghrp-2/no DAC blend. I'll do it, I've got the desire to work out the right way and pay attention to protocol. The question is if there's a huge advantage to Des then over regular IGF and what's the pinning procedure for it?

Also does it HAVE to be the tummy? Couldn't I hit the quads or Delts? Way less absorbtion for ghrp-2/frag/no DAC? I'll admit I'm no stranger to needles, I had my issues a long time ago so you'd think I could "stomach" that but I'm thinking of it and pussing out already lol.

Thanks again man, very good info!

 

[Movin_weight]

I would look out for insulin resistance caused by LR3. I had a thread here where myself and another more scientifically-adept individual had a very good discussion on how we much preferred DES or even standard IGF because it is non-systemic. It is true that we already take a lot of things that go systemic and can affect things other than our muscles. That's why I like to cut those to a minimum. LR3 goes systemic because it is designed to as it is designed for those who have a very rare IGF deficiency. If you have that, you want it everywhere. If you already function properly along those lines, you don't want it all over the place. That's why you can just pop it in your belly fat rather than direct into a muscle as with any other IGF.

I have a client right now who is cutting on GHRP2, Mod-GRF 1-29 (CJC w/o DAC), and HGH Frag. He reported at only two weeks that he was already losing fat in areas he had never lost and he was seeing veins he didn't know he had. He is only a couple hundred calories below maintenance. I NEVER, repeat NEVER recommend CJC w/ DAC to any male. Male bodies naturally pulse GH. Female bodies run more steady releases of HGH. You never want to introduce a steady rise in GH to the male body. Just about everyone else here will say it is fine just like LR3, but I am more cautious and take bioscience into account more than the average bro.

If you're looking to cut BEFORE your epi+trest cycle, I'd say run just peptides with your (hopefully) clean cutting diet. You can add T3 and/or T4 to this. It won't hurt, but I haven't seen anyone who wasn't planning to step on a show stage need to mess with thyroid. If you did do it, though, and you're single, you could find a fat-to-fit chick on her way there and use that CJC w/dac and your leftover t3 to accelerate the process LOLOL.

When you are to your goal for fat loss, drop the frag, keep the peptides going, and start the trest and epi. Then, keep your diet clean so that you gain good quality lean muscle. (Except all the water weight from trest). Epistane and Trenavar would also be a nice cycle per what I've read since you stated that you have access.

To your more specific questions, DES doesn't go systemic (elsewhere in the body) because it has an even shorter half-life than regular IGF. It stays in the muscle you inject it before it is metabolized. It is just as good for a cut or a bulk. I came to like IGF a lot between cycle to hold onto my gains and not lose my knack of pinning my muscles. IGF should be cycled - people debate how. I usually do 2 weeks on/2 weeks off. Some will do 4 on/2 off, or 4 and 4. I wouldn't run it for more than 2 months consecutively without taking a month break.

If there's anything I didn't answer, just let me know. I'll be at a regular PC for a little while longer, makes it easier to type the long answers.

urious about the discussion you guys had and the link to lr3 causing insulin resistance. Everything I've read and experienced is quite the opposite.... where insulin sensitivity is elevated considerably.

Back in school I had a number of glucose tolerance tests performed while using ghrp/cjc combos and experienced reactive hypoglycemia which is a known symptom of insulin resistance... so if anything would have the ability to cause that it would be hgh secretagogues

It of course reversed immediately similar to when taking breaks from regular hgh... but I have not experienced this with igf.

 

[rtmilburn]

Yeah man phone typing sucks!
That's great info, and yeah I'll probably not go t3/4 at all. I'm at like 400-500 in deficit but that was from when I was at 265, in at 245 right now. Funny thing I don't look that different but I had to punch a new hole in the belt (in the tighter direction) and I might need non big boy pants soon (have in stock already). No needs for fat chicks, that was hysterical though. Right now I feel like Peter Griffin, I've got a hot skinny girl at home who somehow didn't leave me after my car wreck, subsequent joblessness, or my getting extra fat! She's a great women, and provides me with all the horizontal exercise I could want!

So a gap in my knowledge:. Why is the non pulses of GH bad for men? Does it blunt the natural pulse? Why not throw the other on top and Just like raise the floor and pulse it also? Doesn't mean I'll discount what your saying and the W DAC is expensive comparitively, so that would help out!

Last question:. So there's Des, lr3 and REGULAR IGF. I didn't know there was reg igf all I hear about is the other two. So forget the lr3, focusing on the other two, the Des is spot injections. Kinda like non-peg mgf right? So that sounds annoying. Kind of like the 3* daily ghrp-2/no DAC blend. I'll do it, I've got the desire to work out the right way and pay attention to protocol. The question is if there's a huge advantage to Des then over regular IGF and what's the pinning procedure for it?

Also does it HAVE to be the tummy? Couldn't I hit the quads or Delts? Way less absorbtion for ghrp-2/frag/no DAC? I'll admit I'm no stranger to needles, I had my issues a long time ago so you'd think I could "stomach" that but I'm thinking of it and pussing out already lol.

Thanks again man, very good info!

I wouldn't worry to much or get to scared about thyroid hormones. People are to cuatious with this one imo. Proper doses for proper lengths can actually increase base level thyroid hormone levels(obviously after rebound period that WILL happen). It isn't as muscle wasting/"catabolic" as people like to believe. It can be very anabolic. Someone had a great anology about on here but I don't remember. I'll see if I can find the quote later. It can greatly help with insulin sensitivity in muscle and decrease it in fat.

As for using w/odac vs with DAC argument is all broscience! There is not any evidence showing which is better. The theory is based of "HGH bleed" causing high aldosterone levels, and that leads to more bloat, and also that "bleed" causes more suppression. Non of this is based on science. Only thing that points to this is the fact that this is not how men normal produce HGH and women do produce it that way. Well that has to do more with estrogen. As women have higher estrogen and high estrogen signals for HGH release. That's is why AIs decrease igf and HGH, unless they are steroidal, and certian type at that; which has a signaling effect its self. CJC with DAC does without doubt releases more HGH but that has to due more with half life than anything. I think with DAC with other peps like mk and/or ipam is the way to go.

There is regularly igf1 but it's pretty much worthless as it is deactivated within minutes (maybe even seconds). You won't find it anywhere other than in medical and even then is very rare. Des is way better than regular igf even if it didn't get deactivated. As it fits into damaged igf recoptors. Plus is 2 or 3 times strong in even regular igf recoptors (I don't remember that actually number).

Subq is best for all peps and hgh. Location doesn't matter, unless it's frag; you want frag in the fattest areas. Want to take them on empty stomach atleast 30min before a meal the but the longer the better. Oh and also des. Des should be used bilaterally in muscle being worked that day. I would say there is a need for more than twice a day and even once should be sufficient. Preworkout should theoretically be best. Allowing natural mgf cycle to happen post workout allowing the most cell hyperplasia to happen.

As lr3 causing insulin resistant I'm not sure on. Truly don't. I have theory, but it is just that a theory. My guess would be that due to the constant levels leading to down regulation as well as igf antibodies. These causing the insulin resistantance

 

[rtmilburn]

Also I would be curious to how much insulin resistant from HGH and HGH related peps; would be from increased cortisol, aldosterone, and other related hormones of that category.

 

[sespress]

Will DES make me hypo a bit? I can't imagine going to the gym feeling mega hungry! With the T3 I've heard all over it's catabolic, is the anabolism of the compound from what you described as increasing sensitivity to insulin in a targeted fashion? What kind of T3 doses are we talking about? I've tried in the past 25mg at night. I made it three days. I was mad shaky man, like I type around 100 WPM and I was down to like 12 (because of mistakes). I work crazy 13 hour shifts and my wrists are already a disaster. I take Lyrica for nerve damage in both wrists and in my leg after my accident. I'm getting off of the stuff not because I really want to but because it went from $30/month to $200 (not all in one shot) and I don't see signs of medical care in this country getting any cheaper. It'll be about a year before I'm weaned off of it. Which sucks because I'm gonna have all kinds of burning fingers and calf in my right leg again. Anyways that's neither here nor there, T3 seemed to effect me poorly. It was RC though, and a few guys have told me to give the real pharma stuff a shot. I could always give it another go, but I really dunno if I want to jack around w/ my Thyroid regardless of how safe a certain protocol might be.

 

[rtmilburn]

Will DES make me hypo a bit? I can't imagine going to the gym feeling mega hungry! With the T3 I've heard all over it's catabolic, is the anabolism of the compound from what you described as increasing sensitivity to insulin in a targeted fashion? What kind of T3 doses are we talking about? I've tried in the past 25mg at night. I made it three days. I was mad shaky man, like I type around 100 WPM and I was down to like 12 (because of mistakes). I work crazy 13 hour shifts and my wrists are already a disaster. I take Lyrica for nerve damage in both wrists and in my leg after my accident. I'm getting off of the stuff not because I really want to but because it went from $30/month to $200 (not all in one shot) and I don't see signs of medical care in this country getting any cheaper. It'll be about a year before I'm weaned off of it. Which sucks because I'm gonna have all kinds of burning fingers and calf in my right leg again. Anyways that's neither here nor there, T3 seemed to effect me poorly. It was RC though, and a few guys have told me to give the real pharma stuff a shot. I could always give it another go, but I really dunno if I want to jack around w/ my Thyroid regardless of how safe a certain protocol might be.

No biggie don't mess with t3 if you dont want to, better safe than sorry. Also des might make you go hypo if not taken with carbs.

 

[sespress]

OK! I really appreciate all the responses, thanks as always for the information and viewpoints. As you'll see I'm kinda going hybrid here with some suggestions from a few of you combined into (roughly) what I was thinking before, + FRAG and continuing with the plan for CJC w/ DAC.

Thank you rtmilburn, Movin_weight, saywutrly, rascal14, I think I'm missing someone. IFG DES sounds great, and I may consider running it on cycle, when that happens. here's the rollup I'm coming up with:

CJC w/ DAC - 3mg/Week - Planning on pinning this Mon/Wed/Frid... that good?
CJC w/o DAC + GHRP2 Blend - 100mcg x 3 a day. 30 minutes outside of meals on either side.
FRAG 176 - 500mcg x 2 a day.
--------------------------------------------------------
>>>Should I run this for a set period of time or just until I reach weight goals and get ready for cycle?

I can pick up the IGF-LR3 on cycle and give that a whirl. That will be Epistane+Trest (TD and Oral PWO). Still holding off on T3. I may check out some pharma grade and see if that's diff, but not for a while.
--------------------------------------------------------
I'm gonna pick up on the same above protocol again in PCT to help retain teh gainz, and I may run that down after 2-3 months into just MK and a rest period of 4-6 months.

So gents, I'm feeling pretty damn solid on this. 2 Months ago or so I was ready to jump right into Epistane/Trest Although my belly fat is not looking forwards to becoming swiss cheese for a few months! My gut's gonna be "Fragged", bwahahaha *OUCH* bad jokes, bad jokes.